Luxury Performance Sedans

bdr127 · February 2006

Regarding the Civic . . . there is a $2790 difference in price, EXACTLY. There is also $2100 as a tax incentive which MAY apply. This leaves $690.

When you get a tax deduction, it doesn't come right off the bottom line... It gets figured in with your adjusted gross income. The actual after-tax benefit is, perhaps, more like $700 or so.

tagman · February 2006

That was previously very true and correct. Effective this year, the new law supposedly lets it come right off the bottom. I'm pretty sure of this, but I am not an accountant, and, as usual, I do not want to mis-state any facts.

That's why a LOT of people waited until January 1, 2006 to do their hybrid purchase.

Check it out and let me know if I am incorrect, which I will be happy to admit if it is the case, but I am fairly certain of this.

TagMan

kyfdx · February 2006

Correct...starting in '06, it is a tax credit, not a deduction..

However... How about we get back on topic?

Luxury Performance Sedans...

Thanks,
kyfdx

tagman · February 2006

Thank you! . . . my credibility is INTACT!!!!

Yes, back on topic!!! Agreed.

TagMan

bdr127 · February 2006

Thank you! . . . my credibility is INTACT!!!!

Okay, cool... I guess I'm stuck way back in '05! :P

grandaddy · February 2006

Yes, tagman, the plan in question is my own. I am carrying it out to perfection.

tagman · February 2006

Ha! Good one. Thank God you DO have a sense of humor . . . I was honestly wondering for a moment . . . but no longer.

Good plan, BTW.

warthog · February 2006

Tagman, as a courtesy to the rest of us, could you refrain from shouting in capital letters? Thanks.

markcincinnati · February 2006

The "plan" is more than likely "economic," not policy. While all this stuff is apparently true regarding the amount of oil that we can tap, it is still "more expensive" to get at it than other althernatives.

We'll get to it based on economics, I'd imagine, NOT some grand plan to "save it all for ourselves."

dewey · February 2006

This is how the E-Class diesel has been handled. So, hopefully the new GL will be cleaner, but the current predictions are that it will not be clean enough.

Tagman,

current predictions are that the new MB E Bluetec diesel will be clean enough for California. And MB can apply this new clean diesel technology to every model(including the GL).

BLUETEC  DaimlerChrysler pioneers a group-wide initiative for diesel with potential for all 50 U.S. states
The Mercedes-Benz E 320 BLUETEC will be launched in fall 2006 in the U.S. as first BLUETEC passenger car
Dr. Dieter Zetsche: We can offer BLUETEC in all our brands for the benefit of our customers

Bluetec

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .you're gonna drive me to drinkin' if you don't stop drivin' that hot rod [diesel] Lincoln."

-- or words to that effect. . . .

Of course at present there is no Lincoln in the LPS world and apparently, not likely to be.

:surprise:

pat · February 2006

Are there any LPSes that are either a hybrid or a diesel? Any that might be planned? We do need to keep in mind what that topic is and it looks like over the last few pages we've lost sight of it.

Some of you might be interested in this discussion over in News & Views: Hybrids & Diesels: Deals or Duds? And of course we have an entire Hybrid Vehicles board.

Have fun!

sjohnson11 · February 2006

There is one LPS hybrid I can think of off the top of my head, the Lexus GS

turnbowm · February 2006

"current predictions are that the new MB E Bluetec diesel will be clean enough for California....."

It's my understanding that the high sulphur content in our diesel fuel is the deal-breaker in California. Can the Bluetec technology overcome this?

pat · February 2006

Yeah, I always forget that one. Is it out now? I don't see it on the Edmunds New Car page for Lexus. But I have heard about it before.

tagman · February 2006

could you refrain from shouting in capital letters?

Are we getting off track, or what? Look throughout the forums. The use of capital letters is frequent and in no way violates the Edmunds forums agreement. The use of capitals is just for expression only, as are the bold typefaces, larger fonts and icon symbols such as these: :P

. And these are all provided by Edmunds!! What matters MORE (whoops, there it is again), IMO, is the spirit of friendly discussion that stays within the guidelines of the Edmunds forums agreement. I suggest that we all respect that agreement . . . and for goodness sakes, let's get on topic!

tagman · February 2006

Yes, mark, that was my point to "grandaddy". I agree. The market will dictate.

tagman · February 2006

current predictions are that the new MB E Bluetec diesel will be clean enough for California. And MB can apply this new clean diesel technology to every model(including the GL).

dewey - you so often come through with the good stuff.

This is great news. The fact that this will happen later THIS year is likely to have a pretty significant impact, don't you think?

TagMan

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .I don't care for messages that are all in CAPS -- conversely, never using punctuation or never using CAPS is also a problem.

Generally the tone and tenor of what is written here and the style in which it is written have been, from what I can tell, within the guidelines.

I think it is cool to have an argument -- or is it just contradiction? "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" "NO it isn't!"

In any case you get the drift I assume.

The exchange of ideas pertaining to our favorite LPS cars -- even if we get a little off track from time to time or from thread to thread -- has been quite entertaining and actually more than a smidge (much more) valuable.

I'll tell y'all a secret (or a story), I saw, over the weekend here in River City more GS 300's than in the entire previous year (or however long they have been on the market.)

EVERY single one had the AWD badge on the butt. That's the story, the secret is in Black or Dark Blood Red, the GS 300 with whatever those multi-spoke wheels are called looks really pretty cool. I like it better than the Infiniti and BMW and Acura and just as much as my "pride and joy" (insert picture of furniture polish and dish detergent here -- get it "pride" and "joy" -- lame jokes, free of charge.)

We did have a "dusting" of snow here this weekend, but the retail car ads in the local newspaper for Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, Jeep, Lexus, Porsche, Subaru, Volkswagen and Volvo all touted their brand's AWD models "as if" the equivalent of "the flood" (of snow) was coming and that "if you care about going when its snowing," you'll get one of their AWD models "at 0% interest or $369 a month, etc etc etc etc."

Great time to be in the market -- of course, I'm not.

Oh BTW, my wife is already on track to exceed her 15,000 miles per year on her BMW X3 lease -- so we bought 3,000 miles at $.16 per mile. Easy as cake. Piece of pie.

Do the other LPS brands do this too???

Anyway, keep up the EMPHASIS, however you want to do it -- and although it is a pain, sometimes, I urge frequent and regular use of the CHECK SPELLING button.

Oh, yea, I have definitive proof -- robots really are stealing my luggage. :shades:

lexusguy · February 2006

The GS AWD will be an interesting choice once its GS350 AWD. As it is now, however, with an engine weaker than the Rav4!, its just too much of a slug compared to the rest of the class. I hope they keep the 430's "enhancements" off of the GS when its 6 gets upgraded.

moxie · February 2006

Here in Western Canada, MSRP of the E320 CDI is $75,450 (cdn. dollars) vs $74,300 for the E350 (2WD)- a surprisingly low differential for diesel power. AND the CDI has 369 lbs-ft of torque which is more even than the E500 at 339 !

qbrozen · February 2006

that's just about the same difference here in the states. $1k more for the diesel Benz. Just wish I didn't have to spend $50k to get a nice diesel sedan.

(and, yes, i know of VW. i just don't like them.)

tagman · February 2006

Very good post. I think you could have probably made a good prediction that I would agree with it.

BTW, I don't remember the forum, but it was not that long ago that there was a tremendous case being made for AWD that I found VERY interesting. After reading your current post, it makes me think that it was you who wrote at quite some length about the virtues of AWD, and how the market is likely to shift towards it. Was that you? If it was, those were great posts.

TagMan

tagman · February 2006

Here's an interesting perspective on the value of that CDI . . . as you probably know, in California, they are not available as a new vehicle, but after 7,500 an out-of-state vehicle can legally then be brought in and re-sold in California and formally re-registered within the State of California.

There was recently a "used" E 320 CDI at the local MB dealership that sold for MORE than the original MSRP on the vehicle . . . and it was used!

dewey has provided information that says in the fall of 2006, California will FINALLY be able to get the diesels. I think that is truly fantastic. I'd hate to have been the guy that paid so much for that used one, though . . . I don't think he'll ever come out ahead on that one, especially when they become available as new.

It's all starting to sound better and better as the diesels start to come.

TagMan

markcincinnati · February 2006

Yes, I am the AWD "fanatic" who wrote those posts and who defends AWD anytime it seems to need defending -- frankly it seems that AWD needs defending less and less as every car rolls off the assembly line. The case for RWD cars is certainly not indefensible, not in the least, but AWD is clearly where the growth is, especially in the near-lux and LPS space.

It is just that folks want the increased performance, safety, fun and "go anywhere, anytime" confidence AWD provides in the real world.

Now if somehow all the above can be bolted into or under one of these fine sheens and weigh about 100 pounds (or more) less than the current tech. MMMMM, maybe if they made the TorSen system out of unobtanium (but didn't charge any more than the current steel stuff), some of the "it weighs too much" naysayers would feel it wasn't worth their trouble to argue about. Unobtanium, yea, that's the ticket.

Yet even this is a bit of a rationalization that really isn't needed since some of the closed track races -- hardly real world and pragmatic, etc -- have been dominated by AWD vehicles. Further when some of the highest performance companies want to bring out even higher performing versions of their superstar cars, they increasingly bring them to market as AWD cars. Take Porsche or "take my wife, please."

Not now Henny.

tagman · February 2006

Yes, I am the AWD "fanatic" who wrote those posts and who defends AWD anytime it seems to need defending. . .

OK. So, dare I discuss this with a "fanatic"?

The interesting thing to me is that for MANY years now, I've insisted on AWD or 4WD in every SUV I've purchased, yet somehow, probably like many folks, consider it less necessary in the other vehicles. One of those SUV's needed a front differential repaired THREE separate times, at great expense, so it made me curse it for a while . . . but when it came time to get the next SUV, I found myself insisting on the AWD/4WD feature once again.

I suppose that the handling of a sedan or coupe has got to be better under certain conditions with the AWD, but it just seems that it is a lot more complicated than would often warrant . . . but I really don't know enough about that to say decisively.

So . . . since you are the "AWD guy" . . . how do the performance vehicles actually stack up in real-life head to head comparisons (2WD vs. AWD) . . . and which LPS's would apply?

TagMan

markcincinnati · February 2006

In deference to our host and some of the other folks tuning in to yak about LPS cars (almost all of them now offered in AWD, BTW), I invite you to email me and I will gladly jaw on and on from the point of view that will defend AWD as one of THE defining characteristics of Performance vehicles, LPS members or not.

Also there is a whole bunch of info here on another blog on this very subject.

I am the AWD "fanatic" -- that just imbues me with opinions and an overriding sense of being never uncertain but often wrong. :shades:

tagman · February 2006

Sounds like you've been through it quite a bit already. Better to let it pass for now, and THANKS for being candid about it. Although there are other AWD forums, I'm certainly interested in AWD as it might apply to the LPS's.

Thanks again.

TagMan

pat · February 2006

Thank you, Mark.

We do have this discussion that some of you may enjoy: Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans.

warthog · February 2006

I very politely made a suggestion. I think your reply was not in kind.

Good communication implies the observance of some conventions, such as spelling as suggested by Mark. Another one, somewhat recently adopted by the internet, is that we don't SHOUT in all caps. If you wish to add emphasis, do so with good prose rather than typeface.

And there's nothing off-topic about trying to improve the level of exchange.

dewey · February 2006

It's my understanding that the high sulphur content in our diesel fuel is the deal-breaker in California. Can the Bluetec technology overcome this?

Correct, but sulphur content will be dropping real soon . Currently US and Canadian regulations are imposing new sulphur content rules. Lower diesel sulphur content combined with Blutec technology is what will make Californian MB diesel sales possible.

link title

dewey · February 2006

This is great news. The fact that this will happen later THIS year is likely to have a pretty significant impact, don't you think?

The impact of Blutec diesel on MB sales will be dependent on diesel prices. Unfortunately the trend so far is higher price hikes for diesel versus gasoline fuel, thanks to a healthy global economy that is bound together by diesel commercial transit.

bdr127 · February 2006

that's just about the same difference here in the states. $1k more for the diesel Benz. Just wish I didn't have to spend $50k to get a nice diesel sedan.

Yeah, I don't know how other posters here get away with talking about the huge price premium for diesel.... In addition to the previously mentioned cars, the Jetta is about the same price gasoline or diesel.

With trucks, however, there is still a difference.... A Chevy/GMC diesel will run you about $5k-$6k more. Of course, people aren't buying a diesel truck for the fuel efficiency or anything. They're all about the torque for towing.

dewey · February 2006

Here in Western Canada, MSRP of the E320 CDI is $75,450 (cdn. dollars) vs $74,300 for the E350 (2WD)- a surprisingly low differential for diesel power. AND the CDI has 369 lbs-ft of torque which is more even than the E500 at 339 !

It sells the same price here in Toronto. I just noticed the Cdn $ pricing of a E320CDI is at a 44% premium over the $US MSRP. That is pretty steep cosidering our exhange rate(US$/Cdn$) is only 15 percent.
It would be advantageous as a Canadian to buy the MB CDI in a US dealership.

tagman · February 2006

Warthog ---- Take a look at your own words:

Good communication implies the observance of some conventions, such as spelling

If you wish to add emphasis, do so with good prose rather than typeface.

This all sounds more like a set of "instructions" for all of us. And, a bit critical, and perhaps directed at me personally as well.

I assume you mean well, but I may need to check with the HOST on this. My spelling and typeface use has been fine, IMO, and I do not believe I have violated any convention or any terms of any agreement. And, I don't believe I have seen violations by other participants that would warrant the "communications police". I trust that the HOST will best determine if the spelling and typeface use has somehow been inappropriate.

Your suggestion that I have not been polite is not the case. I have been nothing other than polite and professional.

This whole critical and personal line of discussion, IMO, is much worse than any overuse of capital letters or mis-spelled words.

I certainly agree that good communication skills are important, but this is going too far, getting way too critical, ruining the fun and pleasure, and getting off track. Sorry, but I just do not want to post further on it.

markcincinnati · February 2006

Have you ever piloted a big boat (not a ship, not a row boat, but a big boat) -- big enough to have two bedrooms a full stand-up shower and a flying bridge? A boat that during the off season sells here in River City for around $300,000. . . .

Have you noticed that to pilot the thing you turn the rudder (the wheel?) long before the boat actually does much in response?

Here we were in the US a few years ago with crummy diesel fuel and we've got the Europeans on the one hand with ever more potent, powerful and luxurious diesel cars; on the other hand you've got the Japanese coming out with kinda weird looking but finally practical "electric" hybrid cars.

If you are Ford or GM whattya gonna do considering the time from thought to showroom is a couple of years away? The Europeans are ahead on the one hand, but partially attributed to their fuel, the Japanese are ahead on the other hand with a technology that it just might be possible to bring to market without too much fuss.

So, perhaps if you're Bill Ford, you go for the hybrid -- then the fuel looks like its gonna clean up, then some wise guy starts analyzing the cost of batteries some 6, 7 or 8 years down the road. Then instead of using hybrids strictly for economy, the movement seems to shift to using them for performance.

Turn the rudder -- and wait.

Now, the Europeans (recheck the Audi A8L video and note that while the test did drive in a way you and I wouldn't typically consider, that this land yacht seems quite capable of massive power and speed in a giant lux car -- at over 30MPG) have gotten their diesels to be quite fashionable AND quite the hot rod. The Japanese for pity's sake are a cummin' with some high zoot lux and LPS cars with hybrid technology.

Here in the US, we're trying in some respects to build econo diesels when the market seems to be, again, moving to such things as V10 Touaregs and super lux A8's and Mercs aplenty.

Turn the rudder again.

Meanwhile the fuel gets cleaner, the batteries get ever so slightly better and keep on keepin' on and we're talking about more [economy] hybrids by 2010!

I could just scream.

We have (several -- many? US cars) some ugly cars in an era when style seems to continue to reign supreme; we have 4 speed automatics when 5,6,7 and DSG,CVT,SMG and "tronics" rule. We offer NOT FSI engines but soldier on with throttle body fuel injection and so on.

We turn the ship's wheel again -- and again we wait.

The European and Japanese mfgrs have features, functions, contents, transmissions, engines and "all that jazz" in the pipeline -- apparently for years.

Nice as it is, we bring out the Lucerne.

Oh the ignominy.

I can deal with ignominy.

You probably can too.

Can we deal with cars, US cars, that by 2010 will be caught up with European and Japanese cars circa 2004?

Add to this, the ultra high costs for health insurance and all the other stuff piling on the US mfgrs -- and the aforementioned cars we produce seem to lack the expected pulchritude in a market that seems to value style equal to or greater than substance.

The LPS crowd is dominated by European and Japanese cars because their executives turned the wheel of their "big boats" a long time ago.

No wonder we're :sick: .

tagman · February 2006

the aforementioned cars we produce seem to lack the expected pulchritude in a market that seems to value style equal to or greater than substance.

It's called "all sizzle . . . and no steak!"

TagMan

markcincinnati · February 2006

I contend that the sizzle sells the steak and the taste keeps 'em commin' back.

For the most part, we're not quite getting either one right, although I think the taste actually has improved -- now we need some sizzle and we need some new sizzle NOT just retro sizzle.

We're doomed. :surprise:

tagman · February 2006

you crack me up.

You think maybe some of the manufacturers will NEVER learn? NEVER get it right?

It's the "survival of the fittest" in this business, and the "unfit" vehicles won't make it.

Public perception is also part of the challenge. That can also turn like an oil tanker, unfortunately. It can often take a long time to replace lost confidence. But it begins with GENUINE reasons to reconsider a manufacturer, once they've had a history of problems. It starts with GREAT products, then the marketing takes it from there. Nothing worse than having to sell garbage . . . ultimately the stink gets out . . . and people remember.

TagMan

markcincinnati · February 2006

I actually think a roll up, consolidation, whatever, might not be too far fetched.

Three car mfgs like we have now, we may not have room for.

The Chrysler 300C seems like a great attempt, quite a few of the Cadillacs at least are no longer an embarrassment, too. Ford has a couple of "Rembrandt's" in the attic too.

Let's get these folks married.

tagman · February 2006

I actually think a roll up, consolidation, whatever, might not be too far fetched.

Whoa! easy on the irrational exuberance

Y'know, I can see it now: Paul Revere, with his head poking out of the sunroof of that Chrysler 300C, yelling: "The diesels are coming! . . . the diesels are coming!"

Just maybe there will be a hero for the domestics in this modern history, and someone will listen and be prepared. Regardless, those diesels ARE coming . . . from Germany . . . maybe later on from Japan . . . we'll see.

But one thing is certain . . . The attack is imminent.

TagMan

tagman · February 2006

watch those caps, dude.

hpowders · February 2006

OUCH!

pat · February 2006

With apologies to those who have tried to keep on topic, this discussion is taking a hiatus.

The diesel and hybrid discussion simply does not belong here. And we are not here to continue to debate the etiquette of posting habits. I've addressed the former already, the latter is something that need not happen, but if it does, it certainly shouldn't become a running debate.

We'll take a rest now. Everyone go take a nap. I'll wake you up when it's time for a snack.

pat · February 2006

There is some milk and cookies over there on the table. If you promise to be good, you may have some.

Welcome back. Let's try again.

tagman · February 2006

Cookie Monster says, "Yum yum . . . me love cookies. Thank you so much."

Is there an official future replacement for the BMW 3.0 liter inline 6 cylinder engine? BMW has done miracles with their inlines, but is a V6 in the cards?

designman · February 2006

There is some milk and cookies over there on the table. If you promise to be good, you may have some.

Are there any ol goats like me who remember Froggy from the Andy Devine Show in the 50s?

Ill be good, I will, I will heh, heh, heh.

;-)

lexusguy · February 2006

I seriously doubt that BMW would even consider replacing their vaunted inlines for a traditional V6. The M3 has already shown what the engine can do at 3.2L. I think they'll just make the next one larger. BMW would be more likely to resort to forced induction than to abandon the inline.

hpowders · February 2006

Yeah. Andy ("Jingles") Devine's show had the old Buster Brown shoe commercial.

I agree with Lexusguy. The inline 6 IS BMW. That is one sweet engine.
They may refine it, but I don't anticipate them changing to a traditional engine.

james27 · February 2006

If you have the length, an in-line 6 is inherently balanced...capable of high rpm and minimal vibration. In contrast, a v6 is much harder to balance - it requires extra parts or much larger harmonic balancers.

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