Luxury Performance Sedans

lexusguy · February 2006

I do it too, I've just never gotten the impression (and apparently its just me) that snow tires are better at dry and wet traction and handling than much of anything, let alone even "half-decent" A\S tires. I'll admit I havent tried those Pilot Alpins, perhaps I'll give them a shot when this set of Blizzaks is due for replacement.

kyfdx · February 2006

A lot of it depends on which model of winter tire you have, not just the manufacturer..

If you buy Q-rated winter tires, like the Blizzak WS-50, they'll feel pretty squishy.. But, if you stay with stock sizes and don't "minus-1" and get H-rated or V-rated winter tires, it is hard to tell them from all-seasons in dry weather..

Bridgestone makes a Blizzak LM-22 or LM-25 in H- or V-rated that is very good in dry... Goodyear Ultra-Grip GW-3 are V-rated in the 17" sizes... Dunlop Winter M3 are also V-rated..

The difference in those on dry roads, and Q-rated tires, is the same as the difference between H- or V-rated all-seasons and the comparable S-rated all-season tire... Amazingly better.. And still very good snow traction.

regards,
kyfdx

dave330i · February 2006

"I agree, AWD's major benefits are not for bad weather."

On a typical driving conditions, AWD is more ballast than anything else. If you're pushing your car hard enough to utilize the extra grip AWD provides, you should be doing that on a track, not on the street.

mnrep2 · February 2006

On a typical driving conditions, AWD is more ballast than anything else. If you're pushing your car hard enough to utilize the extra grip AWD provides, you should be doing that on a track, not on the street.

You could say the exact same thing about owning a rwd sports sedan. Why would you own one if you don't go to a track... You can't wring out its performance potential on the street :surprise:

People buy awd & rwd sedans for many reasons. Safety, prestige, traction, ballast ( awd does make the g35x feel more planted in the twisties

). The inherent traction advantages of awd are felt every day I go up my icy drivway in winter without a running start. Or when my wife makes a left turn against oncomming traffic on a snow covered road.

markcincinnati · February 2006

For "pragmatic" mmmm, "practical" gee, "economically sound" :confuse: what word is it that I'm looking for, :confuse: "sagacious" day in day out real-world purposes and even a pretty high dose of performance -- nothing betters FWD. And, frankly nothing comes close to it within the customer parameters that include certainly at least 80% of the general population (if not 90%.)

FWD is more than "sensible shoes" too -- a reasonable pocket rocket can be a/an FWD-er and even a Barco Lounger on wheels with a huge interior, plush ride and all the modern amenities with decent if not really sporting by contemporary standards handling can be packaged thusly.

And, although it is a bit of a crude car, that super duper high output Pontiac (do they call it a GTO?) is FWD and it certainly can liquefy its front tires (and I'm not certain that is a "prudent" thing to do.) It is often tested or has been and it rarely is trashed due to its FWD layout. In some instances it has been highly praised as being a pretty good excuse for a hot rod that can handle, pretty well.

Indeed if "the powers that be" (whatever or whoever that may be) decreed there could be but one drive type -- and AWD was not on the table, the choice that would probably require the least compromise (even for us LPS snobs) and wring out -- still or regardless -- the most L and P in our Sedans, would be FWD.

And, it does pain me to say that -- thankfully we do not have to make that choice.

But, in the LPS world, I'm still betting that both FWD and RWD will be relegated to the economy car lines and in the case of RWD the hyper, ultra, if you have to ask you can't afford it "retro" performance cars. Perhaps nuts I am you think, perhaps right are you.

I'll hopefully be around at least another 10 years which is more than enough time for this rapidly evolving trend (in the Premium class most especially) to be visible even to those very nearsighted folks.

Been wrong before, but never uncertain. :shades:

bdr127 · February 2006

And, although it is a bit of a crude car, that super duper high output Pontiac (do they call it a GTO?) is FWD and it certainly can liquefy its front tires (and I'm not certain that is a "prudent" thing to do.) It is often tested or has been and it rarely is trashed due to its FWD layout. In some instances it has been highly praised as being a pretty good excuse for a hot rod that can handle, pretty well.

FYI: The Pontiac GTO (new and old) is a RWD car....

It's actually not a bad driving car at all. Handles pretty well; a lot of bang (400hp) for the buck ($34k); fairly comfortable for a sporty car. However, the exterior styling is horrendous.

pat · February 2006

We're losing our standards here of what really qualifies as a Luxury Performance Sedan, don't you think?

We have some other discussions underway that are probably more appropriate to pursue some of the vehicles that have popped up here over the last few weeks.

Entry-Level Performance Sedans, Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans and the Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread are the ones that immediately come to mind for a lot of the off-topic vehicles which have cropped up here lately.

There are also a number of other comparos that may interest some of you. Just scan the list: Sedans Comparisons. And new comparos are always welcome.

Let's try to get this LPS discussion back to focusing on the actual luxury performance sedans and branch out to these other places when appropriate.

markcincinnati · February 2006

I asked the question do they call it a GTO -- of course when I don't do my homework you call me on it. The car I was suggesting as support of my thesis that LPS will soon eschew anything but AWD and support my opinion that were we REQUIRED to choose either FWD or RWD as a THE drive line, that we would give up "least" if our desire was specifically L + P in our "S"edans -- I should have asked if the car was called the GXP, or just asked what the "hot rod" FWD was called.

My wife, when I first met her, had a GTO with a Hurst shifter -- RWD all the way.

But, I digress: Pontiac's GXP "front drive is swaggeringly personified here by the . . . functionally impressive new 2005 GXP edition of the Pontiac Grand Prix."

- Motor Trend

"Inheriting the GXP moniker from the soon to evaporate Bonneville line, the pumped-up Prix has grabbed an additional handful of steroids courtesy of a 303-horsepower, 5.3-liter Vortec V-8, thus creating the first V-8-powered GP in decades. However, the beast finds focus when you crack open the throttle. 60 mph? Punch it to the carpet for six breathless seconds and hang onto the steering wheel as it wriggles with spasms of torque."

- Ditto

Were a fuel crisis to come again FWD will rise again (not that it actually has fallen much.)

We are discussing the facts and opinions relating to cars that have been (and are) by "whatever" criteria currently called Luxury Performance Sedans -- it does seem topical to note the features, functions -- broadly termed "content" -- that these cars seem increasingly to adopt as "available" almost certainly followed by "standard."

Part of our debate seems to be concerned with the notion that FWD is no longer (some would argue it never was) worthy of being part of "a" defining factor for inclusion. Nowdays only AWD and RWD seem to make the LPS cut. Yet from a "logical" standpoint FWD has much going for it -- it is, however, out of vogue as acceptable LPS content.

To that I say, "more's the pity" since, assuming a position within a continuum of "handling and performance and safety," my personal choice remains AWD first, FWD second and going for the Bronze, RWD as long as it has lots and lots of electronic aids to tame some of its more undesirable traits.

I will grant RWD is for the Passionate Driver, but the performance driver will most of the time be looking at the tailights of the AWD car that just passed him.

Again, we are current witnesses to the evolution of the LPS auto's definition. I'd say this year it includes "available" AWD; and, if I am wrong at this juncture, I'd push it no further than MY 2008. But my guess is by that time AWD will be "assumed."

Overheard at the Cincinnati Auto Show today: Woman #1, "this is the new BMW 3 series." Woman #2, "oh, I heard they're now all wheel drive." Woman #1, "cool, I didn't know that, I'd consider one if that is the case." Woman #2, "cool."

My gut is these were people in their late 20's, or early 30's.

My observation at the admittedly small Cincinnati Auto Show was that "the majority" of all the vehicles on display were of the "all wheels driven" persuasion. I'd say, hmmm ~ 2/3rds of the show's cars on display were so "motivated." :surprise:

lexusguy · February 2006

"Overheard at the Cincinnati Auto Show today: Woman #1, "this is the new BMW 3 series." Woman #2, "oh, I heard they're now all wheel drive." Woman #1, "cool, I didn't know that, I'd consider one if that is the case." Woman #2, "cool."

Funny you should mention that. My niece, a die-hard Forester driver, is now a big time lawyer, looking to buy her first luxury car. She doesnt know much about cars, but the #1 item on her list of must haves is AWD. I think a lot of people in their '20s and '30s now, that grew up driving SUVs and other 4WD\AWD vehicles, are going to want AWD on their luxury car purchases as adults.

pat · February 2006

LUXURY PERFORMANCE SEDANS??

(whoo, makes me hoarse)

Pontiacs and 3-Series are not in this category. Please read my last post here for some other topic suggestions for these recent lines of conversation.

markcincinnati · February 2006

Your niece -- based on my experience, the current car market and those of us who tirelessly post here on edmunds -- will be well served by almost any one of the cars represented here on this blog.

If she is "now" a big time lawyer and this is a recent promotion, one of the biggest bangs for the buck HAS to be the Infiniti M's (and there is an M35X which is Infiniti's potent V6 coupled to a drive line that is a rear wheel drive biased all wheel drive.) But the buzz here and elsewhere is that the Acura RL (which is fully equipped with all the do dads standard) is being discounted now and in the future via de-contenting) to offset slow sales. The RL ONLY comes in AWD.

While the journalists, the paid ones, may disagree, the BMW 5 series, too, remains a favorite mode of transport for many professional types who still value performance over luxury -- and last year BMW finally brought their X-drive line to this family of two. At list price, however, the BMW's may be thousands and thousands more when equipped to compete with the Japanese LPS versions. OTOH, the BMW is regularly and frequently offered with heavily subvented leases which can make it easier to afford (and it comes with 100% maintenance for 50K miles.)

My wife, also a lawyer, "used" to work for a law firm, when we schmoozed with these folks, it seemed some of the Partners (avert your eyes) preferred the E (and sometimes S) class Mercedes. Here in SW Ohio, I have to remark I have seen more Mercedes badged as "4Matic's" (AWD) than not -- which for your niece would also be attractive.

The hue and cry here (other than from few of us) seems to be to "Avoid Audis" because they are suspect from a reliability standpoint and that the Lexus GS models are, umm, "cramped and boring to drive, but otherwise exceptional in the reliability department." But, as in the previous candidates for you barrister niece's bucks, both the German and the Japanese come in AWD (standard or available.) FWIW the Audi, too, for this year at least offers full maintenance for 50,000 miles or 4 years.

Based only the cars discussed on this board, only the BMW can be had with either manual or shiftless transmission -- this remark seems to place me more and more on the lunatic fringe so I'll just leave it at that.

Now that Mercedes has pretty much spread the AWD love to virtually every car they sell, it is possible to get AWD in both Audis and Mercedes V8 LPS's (and from Detroit, the Cadillac STS V8 is also offered with either RWD or AWD if your niece needs to impress clients with 'merican iron.)

Finally at the modest-sized Cincinnati Auto Show, the only 5 series BMW elected to bring was a 530xi -- they also had the X3 and X5 represented. Funny, the 3 series on the floor was a normal RWD version, despite the conversation overheard. :shades:

lexusguy · February 2006

On this morning's Motorweek, the 2006 "driver's choice awards" went to the 3-series for best sports sedan, while the M took best luxury sedan. Chalk up another one for Infiniti.

hpowders · February 2006

another one for BMW! :P

bdr127 · February 2006

LUXURY PERFORMANCE SEDANS??
(whoo, makes me hoarse)
Pontiacs and 3-Series are not in this category.

The BMW 3-Series isn't an LPS?

hpowders · February 2006

The awesome BMW 3 series at this point in time on Edmunds, is considered to be an "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedan" which has its own board.

On that particular board, BMW truthfully has no competition, as just about everybody and his cousin picks the new Bangleized 3 series as the best in its class.

marleybarr · February 2006

I only read that AOA was going to "discontinue" the Audi Advantage program in 2007, have you actually confirmed this with your dealer?

pat · February 2006

Hpowders is correct... at least about where that vehicle fits in our class discussions!

"ELLPS" ?? Too funny!! :P

turnbowm · February 2006

"I will grant RWD is for the Passionate Driver, but the performance driver will most of the time be looking at the tailights of the AWD car that just passed him."

Given equal horsepower, the weight penalty and drive train losses of AWD will put it at a disadvantage in acceleration (0-60, etc.) times.

grandaddy · February 2006

What other cars fit into this ellps category? Also since we are not to mention pontiacs here I guess we can't talk about BMW 3 series either?

hpowders · February 2006

By jove, I think he's got it!

markcincinnati · February 2006

I think despite tangents, the headline above says it all:

"What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Lexus GS 300, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Sedan."

Month after month in the print versions of magazines, the LPS and ELLPS (sometimes called Premium or Luxury and Entry level Premium and Near Premium -- which does from time to time blur) cars that we love to write about here are defined and redefined suggesting the "species" is evolving.

Of late, it would appear than BMW's 5 series and Infiniti's M class have greatly impressed the buyers and automotive editors respectively. Audi has received quite of few "honors and accolades," too (they claim they are the most honored car in this class over the past year -- I guess they have people who count the awards so I will not challenge this assertion.)

But at this stage of evolution of the species, the BMW 3 is in the Pre-Premium class whereas the 5 is in the Premium or LPS class.

I haven't checked lately but perhaps a pretty cool townhall would be the ELLPS you invented -- one would assume the baby siblings of the LPS cars (plus perhaps an honorable mention of some other notable cars from Volvo and Acura) could make for a spirited discussion.

The LPS forum, however, does appear to be quite popular and there is a lot to be learned from the folks who take "pen to paper" so to speak.

lexusguy · February 2006

Speaking of Volvo, I'm very interested to see how the next S80 turns out. My guess, based on the XC90, is that the top version with the V8, AWD, and Four-C chassis will price around $48-52K putting it in this category. Perhaps the S80 will make it onto the LPS list?

markcincinnati · February 2006

The program will be changed. AoA seems poised to offer three flavors of maintenance through its dealers:

#1 Pay as you go, with some maintenance free of cost but only during the first year of ownership.

#2 Audi Advantage option @ $550 which would continue the current program for 4 years or 50,000 miles "same as it ever was." In 50,000 miles an Audi will require an oil change @ 5, 15, 25, 35, 45 thousand miles, a tire rotation (one time on Audi) and "one" major service which, as I recall might include a flush of the brake fluid and maybe even a set of spark plugs. The key thing to remember is maintenance is different than warranty and the warranty soldiers on.

#3 The Audi Loyalty Advantage -- which, according to the dealer, appears to be an "incentive" to repurchase an Audi. Supposedly, the Audi Advantage will be offered to repeat buyers that is.

The maintenance requirements are so skinny, I, frankly, don't get it (just raise the price and bury it in the MSRP and brag about how Audi started the free maintenance programs imitated by the other guys and be done with it.)

If Audi totally drops this included maint program, as did Mercedes, you can bet BMW will keep it only as long as it feels it has to (but that might be at least a couple of years beyond Audi.) The Maint on a Bimmer in 45K miles is 3 oil changes, fundamentally, perhaps some wiper blades, etc -- so why not keep differentiating yourself with it?

The Japanese and the American LPS do not offer "free" maintenance -- but here in our little city, many of the dealers (THE DEALERS mind you)offer "comprehensive" and "free" maintenance -- but that is only good at the purchasing dealer. But with these "annual" maintenance events becoming the norm, it appears to be neither a huge cost nor a customer inconvenience.

The Loyalty Advantage details are apparently not completely ironed out.

I would think that a line item option for full-maintenance would be a plus for the LPS cars generally. I think Audi dropping it after only ONE year as a legitimate LPS member is premature.

But they didn't ask me, didn't survey me and didn't (or haven't) warned me.

It may be a tempest in a teapot. And, for $550, assuming I knew what was included, it may or may not be the push I need to really -- this time -- drop Audi like a hot rock.

The way I figure it, it was never FREE, it was just no additional charge -- but hey, this has been "huge" and one less issue that dealers had to deal with when customers had "issues."

Frankly, I just "hate" $100 oil changes -- and full maintenance just "smells" like it helps define the LPS category.

But, speaking on behalf of the "lunatic fringe," I can't figure out why y'all don't buy stick shift equipped AWD LPS cars that come with full, free-maintenance -- well other than the fact that the only one you even could get is the BMW 5 series and it has only been on the market for 7 or 8 months, so you can be forgiven. Me, I came "this close" to the new Infiniti M before "an offer I couldn't refuse" from Audi sealed the deal in Audis favor.

The BMW 5xi is, in some respects, about the only one of this crowd of LPS cars that doesn't seem to be turning into a very nice version of the Buick Lucerne (for $15 - 20,000 more, of course.)

Lunatic Fringe, "I know you're out there."

Drive it like you live. :shades:

markcincinnati · February 2006

Re: turnbowm "weight" of drive line comment.

Umm, "Man" does not live by acceleration alone. These days, AWD's hardware can come in at under 200 pounds and the use of an auto trans over a manual trans typically carries with it more of a mileage penalty than does AWD over a 2WD version of the same sheen.

Moreover, AWD does overcome (or can, largely) the rolling resistance issue that a 2WD drive line can pose. And, Dr. Piech claimed (not that I am by nature a skeptic) that at speeds above 40MPH AWD cars have better mileage (marginally) than their 2WD counterparts.

His argument again? Rolling resistance is nil in the AWD car. Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player -- I do recall reading this in an interview with Piech who apparently isn't just a car hack, but a real engineer.

I could, as usual be misinformed, but confident in said information.

Plentiful, these days, is information pertaining to the overall efficacy of AWD in adding "improved" dynamics (and performance), safety and "fun."

Who knows, next they'll be saying that AWD is for Passionate Drivers. Mmmm, maybe . . . we'll see.

One thing is for certain when both "America's Newspaper" (USA Today) and "America's Information Website" (MSNBC) proclaim folks who are in the market for an LPS insisting on AWD is "the fastest growing" subsegment, well then, you know it must be true.

Anyone see those robots who are stealing my luggage yet.

Anyone? Anyone at all? :confuse:

pat · February 2006

You and Mark and maybe others might have missed this discussion which has been underway for quite some time: Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans. That's where hpowders got the ELLPS acronym.

In that class discussion, we're talking about the BMW 3-Series, Infiniti G35, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350 and 250, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, and the Cadillac CTS.

Hope you and anyone else interested will join us there.

warthog · February 2006

"Maint on a Bimmer in 45K miles is 3 oil changes, fundamentally, perhaps some wiper blades, etc -- so why not keep differentiating yourself with it?"

Plus a couple brake jobs--no small item at BMW dealer prices.

warthog · February 2006

"His argument again? Rolling resistance is nil in the AWD car. Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player -- I do recall reading this in an interview with Piech who apparently isn't just a car hack, but a real engineer."

Piech isn't here, so you're the stand-in. Rolling resistance, as I understand it, is the loss created by the continuous deformation of the tires as they roll. Steel wheels without tires would have little to no rolling resistance, supposedly.

So why does it matter whether a wheel/tire is driven or just along for the ride? It still deforms as it rolls.

houdini1 · February 2006

No not the electric kind, but a cross between an Audi and a Lexus. Let Audi do the styling both in and out (except for the drooping grill)and let Lexus do everything else.

turnbowm · February 2006

Umm, "Man" does not live by acceleration alone. These days, AWD's hardware can come in at under 200 pounds and the use of an auto trans over a manual trans typically carries with it more of a mileage penalty than does AWD over a 2WD version of the same sheen.

Moreover, AWD does overcome (or can, largely) the rolling resistance issue that a 2WD drive line can pose. And, Dr. Piech claimed (not that I am by nature a skeptic) that at speeds above 40MPH AWD cars have better mileage (marginally) than their 2WD counterparts.

His argument again? Rolling resistance is nil in the AWD car. Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player -- I do recall reading this in an interview with Piech who apparently isn't just a car hack, but a real engineer.

Not to be argumentative, but the facts do NOT support what you and Dr. Piech are saying. Herewith are the official EPA fuel economy (city/highway) numbers.....

530i - 20/30 (Man.)
21/29 (Auto)
530xi - 19/28 (Man.)
20/27 (Auto)

markcincinnati · February 2006

One thing at a time.

In response to an LPS debate over both the effectiveness and efficiency of Dr. Piechs AWD (aka quattro, aka TorSen); and with all due respect to as many of the rules of the road as I dare break, I presented without substantiation my recollection of some of Dr. Piechs conclusions and discoveries.

N.B. Dr. Piech, aka, "the father" of Audi's quattro and some would say the father of cars  as opposed to off road vehicles  employing AWD not only for on road but for use to gain performance advantages both in normal driving and on closed course events (races, shows, tours, etc.)

Whew! :shades:

Here, Cluk Click is a more complete and hopefully appropriately posted essay on the apparent contradiction of how Dr. Piechs concept (NOT BMWs X-drive per se) "mysteriously" saves fuel despite what some would argue are weight and friction penalties imposed by the mechanisms that are required to turn a 2WD car into an AWD car called an Audi quattro.

Hope this is "fuel" for thought.

- Mark :shades:

brightness04 · February 2006

What may (or may not) be true at 170mph ("higher top speed" when the electronic governor is obviously removed) has no bearing whatsoever for the real life speed situations of 90mph or lower. As much a lover of AWD myself, I can't argue against real life EPA tests consistently showing all vehicle models turning in lower mph in their AWD models than 2WD counterpart . . . a theory is nice but it can't hold candle to real life data.

markcincinnati · February 2006

I had not intended to go down a path that more than remotely suggested acquiring an AWD vehicle would or should be undertaken because it was more fuel efficient.

Piech's findings of improved fuel efficiency required speeds in excess of 40MPH; and, using my "average speed" feature on my trip computer, I see that even when I drive from Cincinnati to Pittsburgh and back (and even at speeds well above 70 or 80) that my "average speed" for the trip including all the non-highway time rarely exceeds 38 or 40 mph (often less than 33.)

I would and am NOT encouraging the consideration of AWD by those here on the LPS board or those shopping for cars in general as a way to improve gas mileage or whiten teeth.

The issue of the "excess" weight and its penalties on economy and performance do have their legitimate roots. The point has been to suggest that it is becoming a "Mega-trend" for the Premium Class (aka LPS) of cars to be expected to "offer" AWD. If AWD was horribly wasteful of fuel and decreased performance (and fun), I am confident the "market" would speak and pretty much squash AWD's growing popularity.

The effects of AWD drive lines applied "appropriately" will be improvements in control, fun, performance and safety with very little "negative improvements" (is that an oxymoron?) in economy.

AWD has "lost weight," become less expensive than, ummm, Satellite Navigation and has been all but demanded by Premium car buyers. Hence, a conclusion that one might reach is "you can't be in the LPS crowd without it."

My gut tells me BMW's only regret is waiting so long to offer it on the 5's. Of course, they are making up for lost time.

I don't want to lose the concept of AWD's efficiency -- potential efficiency -- but at this point the ~165 pounds of weight are simply not overcome [yet, if ever] in daily mixed driving in modern AWD LPS cars (and non LPS cars for that matter.)

As Physicist Niels Bohr says, "Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think." Or my corollary, "Never think more clearly than you are able to express."

"May I have the envelope please?"

"What say ye?"

"Guilty."

Damn. :surprise:

houdini1 · February 2006

Well, it seems the verdict is in. Let's take the guilty bas***d out and hang him!!

kssod1 · February 2006

A 2006 RL probably can be had for 45-46k. I've seen 2004 and 2005 Phaetons for the same on ebay and autotrader with 10-15k miles. Which is the better vehicle?

markcincinnati · February 2006

How LARGE of a car do you need?

kssod1 · February 2006

bigger than my X-type. I want to have AWD, luxury and some sport, with a usable back seat. The GS is under powered and was very floaty on the road. I am waiting on the new 07 G35x, looks great if they redo the interior and move the seat controls out from under the right thigh. the 06 just felt cheap compared to the Jag. There are many knocks against the X-type, but it certainly drives great at speed.

lexusguy · February 2006

Well, if you want a car that absolutely no one else has, then I suppose its a steal. For the same money though, you could get a 2004 LS430. The LS will hold its value, and will be reliable. The Phaeton's value will continue to tank (W12 cars are mid 50s on the used market) and its long term reliability is highly questionable.

Also, thanks to the big VWs 5200lbs of heft, its slow, and handling is sloppy. The RL will outrun and outhandle it easily.

lexusguy · February 2006

How about the M35x? Its roomier, sportier, and has every feature that the GS does.

markcincinnati · February 2006

The Pheaton has a very large back seat. It has a somewhat thirsty V8 and it has AWD.

It will probably have the balance of the VW full free service, will be eligble for being CPO'd and if you need to get it serviced -- and you need it NOW rather than free - the Phaeton can be serviced at VW and Audi dealers very readily.

The Phaeton is a lot more lux than sport.

The Pheaton's electronics are fine, but they are nowhere near the standards you would get in the Japanese counterpart.

Yes the Pheaton is a heckuva discount -- but that is because, in large part, they have a steeply declining residual (but this may be a bit of a who cares since in fact you will be the guy enjoying this decline in value from the day it landed on our shores until now.)

For similar money -- IF you are NOT writing a lump sum check or are not getting 0% interest or some other qualifying reason that may sway you -- the Infiniti M35X has a decent back seat (I think it is bigger than the RL which seems a bit cramped to my eye.)

The Acura will have all the do dads on it at that price -- the M35X probably will not, but it depends on what you want.

You would certainly want the M35X with the Journey package and you may want it with the Technology package which does raise the MSRP to ~ $50K before any discounts, deals or financing incentives that may tickle your fancy.

The Lexus GS300 AWD may be able to be had for such a price, but it too is a little bit cramped according to some.

Personally I like the looks of the Lexus and if that is a concern, well you need to check out the three Japanese cars side by side so to speak (or brochure by brochure.)

I would not have any issues in terms of being stranded with the Phaeton -- but, and this pains me to say this, I would probably put the Phaeton as my "plan 'B'" despite my bias for German cars.

If your main two or three considerations are AWD, Luxury and "some" sport -- well then my personal "plan 'A'" would have to be the M35X -- it is often said to be the "most" German like Japanese LPS car on the market today.

One writer said the M threatens to make the other LPS players "irrelevant." While I take issue with THAT characterization, well, I do think the M may merit your strong consideration.

Also, while I am objecting, the VW is not slow and "all things considered" it is not sloppy either.

But these things ARE relative to "what?" and even with objective data the interpretations can be quite subjective.

The Phaeton is REALLY nose heavy which makes it understeer, but it can be pushed quite hard before the understeer gets in your way. But not anywhere near as hard as the Acura or the Inifniti M. The wrap about the Lexus is that it gives up too much performance for lux -- and so the debate goes. Less filling or tastes great?

lexusguy · February 2006

"Also, while I am objecting, the VW is not slow and "all things considered" it is not sloppy either."

I certainly wouldnt call it fast. The W12 can only manage 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds, not exactly impressive for 400+hp. The LS and XJ which weigh a good half ton less, and pretty much every other car in the full-size lux segment, would make short work of the Phaeton V8 in a straight line.

In the big C&D test, it managed only second to last place, and there werent a lot of praises for steering or ride quality.

markcincinnati · February 2006

Now I understand what you meant. Sometimes we need a glossary of terms to make certain we are talking about similar characteristics.

When I think fast, I think "how fast can it go?"

When I think 0-60 times, I think "how quickly will it go from X to Y, etc.

Yes the other cars weigh less. The Phaeton even weighs more than its fraternal twin cousin, the A8L which is, of course due in part to the use of steel in the VW and aluminum in the Audi.

The Phaeton is not as quick as some of the other cars it is compared with, agreed. In the US, I assume the speed (how fast is will go, i.e.) is limited artificially to 130MPH (but some of the Germans don't shut their cars down until 154.)

Acquiring such a car for its 0-60 abilities is probably not done that much, but your point is now understood.

There are several "glowing" or at least very flattering reviews of the Phaeton -- but overall the car has disappointed quite a few folks (the owners seem to like them, mostly, though.)

It is pretty much a non-issue, I would imagine, since we have probably pretty well eliminated the Phaeton from the poster's short list with our "words of encouragement" for the car.

I have almost certainly used the word fast when I meant quick, but I have seen the terminology morph into the meaning as I suggest.

"This is a really fast car." And, "this car with apparently unlimited urge is slingshot quick."

Sorry for the confusion.

Just for the heck of it, I looked it up:

QUICK suggests promptness and the taking of little time.

FAST as in moving or able to move rapidly.

Perhaps as close as these terms are to each other, the current "professional" automotive journalists have elected to "pick one" to suggest acceleration and one to suggest top speed.

Beats me.

Sometimes, I just ain't swift. :confuse:

lexusguy · February 2006

0-60 is not a top consideration in a luxury car purchase, no, but in a luxury car with 300+ horses on tap, especially one costing more than $60K, I think buyers expect a certain level of performance to be there, and 0-60 is a big part of that, definitely more than top speed, which is usually severly restricted anyway.

For a V8, I think that anything approaching 7.0 or over would be considered uncompetitive.

docnukem · February 2006

Sometimes we need a glossary of terms to make certain we are talking about similar characteristics

I propose the following ranking of terms to convey the relative quickness of cars discussed on these boards:

1) crawling; 2) ponderous; 3) plodding; 4) sluggish; 5) pokey; 6) slow; 7) lagging; 8) leisurely; 9) measured; 10) brisk; 11) fleet; 12) rapid; 13) swift; 14) quick; 15) fast; 16) speedy; 17) dizzying; 18) Einsteinian relativistic

By simply using one of these terms, I am sure we can clear up any confusion as to the relative speed of any car. For example, my M35x is swift, but the M45 is fast!

tagman · February 2006

Thanks, doc . . . YES, good ranking. No more confusion!!

But, dare I say I must "hastily" get going, as I will "rapidly" depart and "recklessly" go, but I will be carefull not to "flat-out" get out of dodge too abruptly . . . considering the dangers of driving too fast and too "furious"!!

Therefore, on the new "docnukem speed scale" I will travel at speed # 16.

TagMan

markcincinnati · February 2006

These classifcations are far better than simply saying the relative measure performance.

Of course the 18 terms are, umm, more "colorful" and may be the cause of and for debate.

And, debate is, er, "cool." :surprise:

lexusguy · February 2006

I hope this "carbon leather" trim doesnt end up in other BMWs. Talk about depressing.. what's with these guys, anyway?

bdr127 · February 2006

It's supposed to appeal to the "sporty" driver... As opposed to the "luxury" wood look, those types tend to like black interiors with aluminum/carbon fiber/grey trim. Granted, it looks pretty bland in that picture, but I bet with the leather in-lays, it actually looks pretty nice. There's just not enough resolution and close-up in this picture.

docnukem · February 2006

Looking at the lower end of the spectrum made me wonder about some of the slowest cars. A search turned up some interesting vehicles.

Slow Cars

I may be ignorant (or worse if you listen to some), but why do so many diesels make the list if they are supposed to have gobs of low-end torque? In keeping with the LPS thread, the Audi 5000S Diesel and Seville Diesel are on the list.

I need to add one more category at the bottom:

0) Immobile (as in a rock or 1964 VW Beetle).

shipo · February 2006

Diesel technology has changed rather dramatically over the last couple of decades, that and the fact that most (if not all) automotive and light truck diesels are now turbocharged, means that diesels are very much on par with a modern gasoline engine performance wise.

Best Regards,
Shipo

markcincinnati · February 2006

How depressing. That would be the kind of interior I would expect a HUGE discount on to make me live with it for 36 months. Yuuuuukk!

'Course, so many of the BMWs in stock here in River City are also black painted too!

One Johnny Cash is enough. I don't need my car to remind me of a hearse (color wise.)

Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles