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Comments
Aluminum would help, a little, tho.
Personally, I would love to see more "Tobacco" leather offered in cars. Amaretto and bourbon are close, just not dark enough.
If you consider austere, functional and sporty as depressing then yes it is depressing.
But in my case this interior is perfection! Black on black has always been my choice ever since purchasing my first new car, a 88 Acura Integra.
I have seen Jags with racing green exteriors and dark brown leather that looked more sporty. I can recall an Alfa Romeo with an ivory exterior and brown interior that did likewise.
True, black on black has been associated with sporty/performance-oriented cars. That's why you see so many inexpensive pocket-rockets with the option of black consoles/dashes/upholstery. It's a stereotype I wish could be relegated to history. While it does seem different and therefore mildly appealing in its own way, I get one of those, "It's-a-nice-place-to-visit-but-I-wouldn't-want-to-live-there", vibes. Just different strokes, I guess.
Of course, this interior is not at all supposed to appeal to the average Lexus buyer (and I don't mean that as an insult, so please don't take it as such). All the Lexus models are trimmed with wood all over and that's what their customers like. It's one difference between Lexus and BMW... Lexus goes all out on luxury (and do a nice job with it), while BMW both luxury styling and sporty styling.
Yup... Ever heard "there's an a** for every seat" ?? :P
I'm still waiting for #19 which would describe my 545.
Given time and mass dilation, the mass of your 545 would become infinite and the time would stretch out to infinity. Not good for your 0-60 times.
You like that do you? You know the old cliche "one man's nirvana is another man's hell.
It's a stereotype I wish could be relegated to history.
I dont care about trying to live up to any stereotype. I dont care if black on black becomes relegated to history.
All I do care about is my ability to buy a black on black car without any gaudy loud colors and frivolous luxuries/ conveniences/electronics.
Simplicity rules in my world. I care more for the 'P" than the 'L" in LPS.
Wasn't sure who to send this to but figure someone from edmunds will see this and fix it.
Volvo S8?????
Check down at the bottom of this little blurb.
I did see the Supercharged STS for $77,000+ that certainly had the looks to suggest performance.
But, I am afraid there are virtually no cars -- save the 5 series -- that ARE NOT morphing into the Buick Lucerne (from their various origins of course.)
Audis S-Line, at least is making an honest attempt and fairly convincingly with the 4.2. The A6 S6 with the 10 cylinder too, may make a good run at it.
The M45 -- even with its older tech 5 speed automatic -- were it equipped with both a sport suspension and the M35X's drive line would also be a strong anti Lucerne statement.
Alas at this juncture only the BMW 5 and the S-Line for honorable mention even comes close to being a P dominant LPS car.
Hopefully the S6 will change this -- but then again it only comes in automatic transmission form, certainly a deduction of at least a point or two. Maybe good for a silver medal.
The S4 is starting to look interesting from this perspective.
Overall though, if BMW offers a true sport suspension on the 530xi (with the stick shift), well perhaps it will be game, set, match.
Lunatic fringe, out.
That shifter kind of looks like it wasn't designed for the human hand.
Completely uninspiring.
...
But, I am afraid there are virtually no cars -- save the 5 series -- that ARE NOT morphing into the Buick Lucerne (from their various origins of course.)
...
The M45 -- even with its older tech 5 speed automatic -- were it equipped with both a sport suspension and the M35X's drive line would also be a strong anti Lucerne statement.
Alas at this juncture only the BMW 5 and the S-Line for honorable mention even comes close to being a P dominant LPS car. ...
Mark, I'm shocked and disappointed that you would make such comments.
Please clarify what you're getting at. :confuse:
With all of the research and reading I have been doing about AWD being a prerequisite for membership in the Premium Class, aka LPS (partly in defense of AWD, partly), I have just come to the conclusion that many of these cars we wax poetic about continuously morph their luxury quotient at the expense (emasculation perhaps?) of the performance quotient.
The BMW 530xi declines to offer a true sport package offering and eschews for the time being the active steering (that some swear by and some swear at) -- but it can be had with 18" wheels and tires and a smooth as butta 6 speed manual. This, IMHO, would be the total anti-Lucerne were BMW to offer a sport suspension and trim package (as is offered by Audi as S-Line.)
The criteria -- my lunatic fringe criteria, maybe someone else's maybe not -- are sporting characteristics, true, traditional sporting characteristics, rather than simply accoutrements.
A wing on the butt is an accoutrement but as part of a total ground effects package and plus sized wheels and tires and an active or at least a "more aggressive" suspension can be more than an accoutrement.
A stick shift is almost certainly a dead giveaway that the car is meant to involve the driver in the act.
A V8 coupled to at least a 6 speed automatic with manu-maitc controls can "pass" for performance; but, an automatic-shift manual (e.g., DSG or SMG) is better as is a 7 speed lightweight manu-matic.
Can the Mercedes E be equipped with a real sport option in 4Matic mode?
For today, for this member of the lunatic fringe, AWD is also the only way to wring out the last bit of performance as horsepower and torque approach weapons grade (examples of such motors would be the M45's V8, the M5's, Audis V10 and somewhat less inspiring but still a contender Audis 4.2 V8.) Then you have the problem of coming up with all the key characteristics in one offering.
An almost total lack of willingness to seriously consider a car with a something-tronic transmission with less than 6 speeds and a literal lack of willingness to consider one of these babies with anything less than a state of the art AWD system -- preferably with rearward biased AWD -- narrows the field, too.
Now I say all of this in the same breath as Lucerne, simply because the Lucerne, I am led to believe, seems to contain much of the luxury content so many of these LPS cars emulate (and apparently aspire to?)
Today, what can be actually bought or ordered TODAY, the choices are slim:
1. BMW 530xi with 18" wheels and 6 speed manual
2. Audi A6 S-Line 4.2 or bronze mention of the 3.2
3. Audi S6 V10
4. Mercedes E class (probably with every sport option box checked and perhaps some aftermarket springs, shocks, and anti-sway bars (and possibly aftermarket wheels and tires.)
Of these, only the simple turn of the spigot from BMW to allow an S-Line (M-Line) like appearance and sport set up in a 530xi, prevents it from being in a category all by itself.
Of course this is the lunatic fringe perspective and is statistically and financially irrelevant and possibly irreverent too. :surprise:
It is something to think about once you consider that both Acura and Audi had brand new AWD models (RL and A6) on the market last year, yet they've both been locked in an epic battle for next-to-last place in sales since inception. Even the STS is outselling them. :surprise: I mean, come on!
What I think is being suggested, when you factor in that every 2005 A6 in the US was AWD and EVERY Acura RL was AWD and (here in Cincinnati) 40%+ of the 2006 BMW 5 series are X-drive (so says the purchasing agent at Ohio's largest BMW store which is here in Cincinnati); and coupled with the fact that the owner of the Audi store, the Acura store and the Infinti store claims that the M35X is the most popular M, plus the numbers you cite looked at in toto, well I just can't buy that Audi is losing sales to BMW any more than it ever has.
The remarkable thing is the number of AWD drive cars in the LPS class that are [apparently] being sold considering LPS AWD widespread availability is a 2005 CY and 2006 MY phenom.
Audi, apparently, thinks it is on a roll.
And, yes I know they do fight for the right to be the last on the list each and every month.
In Germany, however, Audi and BMW often vie for the top spot, recently BMW has played second to Audi and in the UK, Audis sales have shot up to near US levels.
China too has seen Audis sales grow by over 40%.
Audi certainly has much to be concerned with from BMW now that BMW has pretty much joined Mercedes with an AWD onslaught "against Audi." But, personally, I think Audis problems if they can be called that have more to do with their voluntary low-profile with respect to marketing themselves as "the first (for 25 years)" AWD LPS or at least near-Premium (historically) car company.
They squandered their secret weapon as far as I am concerned.
But, as usual, they didn't consult with me.
What once were vices are now virtues, if you get my drift.
:shades:
Generally speaking the Audi 4.2 V8 (used in the A6, BTW) is well regarded, a great performer, reliable and . . . wait for it: thirsty!
All Audis reliability ratings have improved -- if you are the owner of an older Audi (one with the 2.7T) and you are still shopping the brand, your experience (like my own family's) will probably sway you more than anything else.
For example, had you been burned by that rare defective Lexus car you would probably be disinclined to repurchase despite Lexus legendary reliability scores.
The new Car and Driver, for instance, paints an unflattering picture of the Acura RL in this regard -- but still concludes the RL worth considering in the Premium Class.
Check over on the S4 board, post some questions, see what happens.
FWIW, other than the thirst of the beast, I wouldn't hesitate to own an S4, but I would for personal reasons (living in Cincinnati makes soft top cars a contradiction of terms -- weather wise, IMO, i.e.) not consider a drop top.
5 = 4,153
E = 2,310
GS = 2,049
M = 2,000
STS = 1,740
A6 = 1,168
RL = 712
"Buy one, get one Free!"
:surprise:
"Buy a TL and we'll throw in an RL for FREEEEEEE!"
Wow, though, the RL ought to be a stone cold bargain for one already in stock, I would assume.
The RL despite my own biases is a darn nice car and a worthy LPS player -- with the incentives that OUGHT to be out there to move the product, well, how 'bout no money down and $499 for 36 months on a 15K mile per year lease?
And, no sec dep either!
I wonder how many potential buyers like Mark will question the wisdom of the v-8 or v-10 engine w/ $3+ per gallon coming soon to a station near you?
Our local mini Audi headquarters was over $6,000,000 (we have two dealers not owned by the same folks, too) last year and they sell 50 cars a month.
The math doesn't add up in the near term, so I have to conclude that optimism and a sense of more good things to come are at play here, too. :surprise:
M
The 525xi (it is an X I assume) has the 6speed manual.
If you are going with the auto trans, the Audi, otherwise the BMW is more likely to be your fave.
There is no sport option that includes a performance upgrade on the 5X's.
If you are looking at a 525 NON X model, the Audi Sline, by far will blow the 525 away in both Lux and Perf as a Sedan.
But I am one of the few members of the lunatic fringe.
For I cannot imagine getting the BMW with an automatic and without AWD -- and if you don't consider the stick shift the BMW isn't even close.
I am sure to be called on this -- but I stand resolute.
Now upgrade to the 530xi keep the stick opt for the the sport package (in name only) AND the 18" wheels and tires and the BMW is the winna and champeen despite its fake sport package.
Since most folks don't want a real sport package, I assume you can tolerate the BMW with the Lucerne effect. If you care about crispness, the Sline makes both an appearance and performance difference.
Based on the discount, the A6 can be had with a sweeeeet V8 with Sline. Today, no such BMW can be had.
Go for the stick shift.
Else go for the Audi.
The Premium class as is commonly defined cannot include FWD cars either.
I may personally argue that FWD is capable of better performance than RWD, but this is a non starter argument and I understand the reasons.
The CTS probably is more of a 3 series competitor.
The TL would go up against the A4 or Merc C class, not the A6 or M class Infiniti.
You may disagree and I may at least see your point of view, but the pragmatist in me understands what can pass for LPS and what can only Lust for inclusion.
The ES, TL and CTS (and G) are not in the same league as the GS, RL, STS (and M) at this point.
Someone once said, it is just not worth going there.
Me, I'd at least consider the Chrysler 300C AWD for consideration.
I am often wrong.
But never uncertain.
Acura competes with the C230, 325, and A4 2.0T with the TSX, and with the V6 (or I6) powered versions of these cars with the TL.
Lexus competes in the entry performance class with the IS. The ES is in another category all together. Its competition is the "MKZ" and LaCrosse\Lucerne.
The G, despite its size, is an entry level car. In other markets it is available with a smaller 2.5L engine, but in the U.S. we just get the big VQ35 as the only option.
Other than Blutec it sounds all cosmetic.
I find the Blutec upgrade quite interesting, although the E itself is not my kind of car ( maybe I will begin to like it in a few decades or so )
And as CR continues picking Japanese cars as their top picks then CR will attract even more readers with a Japanese car bias.
The superiority of Japanese cars according to CR is nothing more than a reflection of biases versus real reliability.
Here is an analogy: If the President of the USA was elected based on NY Times readers' surveys , then there would never be a Republican President.
Have you seen the CR survey? It is not a poll for what kind of car someone would choose. Even if more people with Japanese cars return the survey, don't you think the results are weighted to reflect the number of responses per brand?
Put another way, you are implying that even those surveyed with non-Japanese cars have a bias for Japanese cars. The CR editors have a bias towards reliability rather than performance or styling, granted. They have their biases, but they are not dummies when it comes to statistics.
Ofcourse there are German car owners in the CR survey. But a majority of German car owners are turned off by CR survey results and the CR magazine itself, especially when the results contradict their own positive experiences with their cars .
The minority of German car owners who are disgruntled with their cars will seek CR guidance for a Japanese alternative and are likely to participate in CR surveys.
Therefore even the German car owners surveyed by CR will have a Japanese bias.
Is it any wonder why all the top cars are Japanese?