Luxury Performance Sedans

pat · March 2006

That is absolutely incredible, dewey! Thanks for posting it.

Anyone who missed dewey's link to the Audi wreck should go back and look at it. :surprise:

markcincinnati · March 2006

Now let me make certain I get the data points accurately:

1. 4 of 6 hybrids -- today including the tax credits -- do NOT recover the premium paid over a 5 yr or 75K time/mileage period.

2. 2 of 6 hybrids -- with the "limited federal tax credits" -- are able to provide a savings of either $400 or $300 over five years

2a. Conclusion 1, without the tax credits none of the 6 recover the upfront premiums paid

2b. Conclusion 2, the 2 that do recoup the premium paid are not "performance" oriented Hybrid's

3. Extra ownership costs on the other 4 (with the tax credits?) range from $1,900 to $5,500 over the same time period.

Then, a few posts later, the notion that Hybrids are not just for economy is presented (accurately, I do believe); hybrids have demonstrated great potential for improving acceleration (how quickly it gets from one speed to another higher speed) and speed (how fast it will go and sustain with minimal effort.)

But they still cost more over the 5 year period than a non hybrid -- correct?

Then a few posts beyond that (I like to think in response to my end of last week post pertaining to the Audi diesels winning pole position at Sebring) The diesel cars win at Sebring.

Many many posts back, I posted a link to a British TV show where over the course of 2 days (compressed to about 14 minutes) an Audi A8L 4.2 turbo diesel (in stock form, so says the announcer) went some 800 miles on one tank of diesel fuel, returning over 40 MPG's.

Couple this with the new 3.0 turbo diesel 6speed tiptronic quattro A6 ratings (on Audi's non-US websites) which is quicker than the 3.2 gasoline version by .1 seconds and achieves a hiway economy rating of 43MPG and a combined rating of 33MPG.

The diesel commands a smaller price premium relative to most of the hybrids ever published.

It wouldn't take a math wiz to calculate the additional cost of diesel (which here in SW OH is about the same price as Premium Gas, which most of these LPS cars require anyway) the additional miles, carry the 3, divide by the square root of PI and ta da -- diesel payback, no batteries, a technology that has been proven and is now able to be clean enough to meet the strict European standards (and the fact that in the US clean diesel will or in some cases already is here.)

If someone cares to do this, it would seem that using the published figures that the Audi 3.0 turbo gets ~ 50% better mileage than the 3.2 gas version, all the while being a tiny bit quicker and no less fast.

Now that Audi has demonstrated that a diesel can win a race (hopefully they will continue the demonstration), who's next? BMW, Mercedes some Japanese or Korean or American company?

Hybrids may be our salvation, for all I know.

They seem to be a statement "I've got enough money to buy one of these things even though they aren't terribly economical (indeed the contrary, today, is true.)"

Diesel would improve economy, fun and performance (and perhaps linking some portion of performance to control, safety, too.)

It is here now and getting better every Tuesday.

Putting such technology in LPS cars seems like it will become a "must do" step, if it isn't already (globally) in the pipeline for us here in the US.

One can only hope! :shades:

grandaddy · March 2006

Good info but somehow I missed your post referenced as late last week where you said you posted that Audi had won the pole position in the Sebring race. Please let me have the post # as I am doing research on this. Thanks.

I can't believe there has not been more publicity about this historic win for Audi and diesel. Diesel rocks!!

tayl0rd · March 2006

Thank God is correct! Mangled metal is mangled metal. It doesn't matter who made it. There is no possible way anybody could have survived that crash other than divine intervention. I don't care if it is an Audi.

2001gs430 · March 2006

Post #6844, Jrock65 has pointed out that the GS450h costs the same as similarly equipped GS430, so I think CR need to do a new study on this model.

Another post read:
nor is the majority of LPS buyers interested in fuel savings anyway.

I can't speak for everyone, but up to now buyers do not have any real options in term of getting both power and fuel economy in LPS models available. It is almost like saying that LPS owners would not shop at Walmart or Costco and they would rather pay 30% more for the same household necessities at local convenience stores.

markcincinnati · March 2006

Post #6878 17 March 2006:

"One of the most dominant manufacturers in sportscar racing in the last few years, Audi, heads this weekend to America's most storied sportscar race, the 12 Hours of Sebring. Promoting diesel technology with the debut of the new TDI-powered Audi R10 and with serious competition from rivals like Porsche, the 12-hour endurance race promises to be legendary."

"The new Audi R10 TDI has written a piece of motorsport history making its début at Sebring (USA): For the first time ever, a diesel powered car has claimed pole position in a sportscar race. In Thursdays qualifying session, Scotlands Allan McNish broke the track record by over two seconds, impressively underlining the performance of the modern Audi TDI technology."

grandaddy · March 2006

Thanks Mark, excellent info!! European drivers routinely report 50 mpg in large diesel powered autos. I simply have to think that politics play a role in the U.S. and are at least partially the cause for our not taking a more proactive approach to diesel. Inexcusable.

markcincinnati · March 2006

More from Sebring re diesel victory:

Quotes after the race at Sebring

Prof Dr Martin Winterkorn, Chairman of the Board of AUDI AG:

"Audi has once again written motorsport history, this time by being the first manufacturer to win an endurance race with a diesel powered sportscar. This impressively confirms the efficiency of the modern TDI technology. It is especially remarkable that this success was achieved at the very first race of the new Audi R10 TDI. The whole team from Audi Sport and the Technical Development of Audi has once again done a great job. I thank everyone who is participating in this ambitious project.

Dr Wolfgang Ullrich (Head of Audi Motorsport):

"This has been a very tough race and thus a good test for Le Mans. To get the first victory for a TDI engine after our pole position is fantastic. We showed today whats in our new sportscar with a Diesel engine. Thanks to the whole crew from Audi Sport and Team Joest. Of course it is a shame that we couldnt bring both cars to the finish. But we learned a lot today and know that it is still a long way to Le Mans.

Drive it like you live.

P.S. from Audi websites: A6 3.2 FSI quattro 6spd tiptronic est MPG hiway 26, 0 - 100KPH 7.1 seconds; A6 3.0 TDI quattro 6spd tiptronic est MPG hiway 43, 0 - 100KPH 7.0 seconds (40% improvement in mileage, minor improvement in acceleration) and today Mobil Super+ $2.75.9/10ths, Diesel at same station $2.64.9/10ths.

Gallons GAS to go 75,000 miles = 2,885 ($7,960).

Gallons DIESEL to 75,000 miles = 1,744 ($4,620).

$3,340 less for the diesel fuel version.

Sign me up.

Screaming voice in the wilderness (aka Lunatic Fringe) -- over and out! :shades:

tagman · March 2006

I find that hard to believe. There is still room for improved reliability for all cars

Not necessarily so. As it turns out, in recent years the reliability of some of the Toyota/Lexus models has been SO high that there seems to be no statistical improvement that presents itself. It seems to have reached a threshhold. That does indeed suggest that there is a statistical limit.

Yes, of course, cars that are less reliable can do better, and should, IMO, but my post should not be confused to mean that there is no room for those cars to improve. It is an interesting statistic that was discussed at some length on one of the forums earlier this year.

While extreme reliability is achievable, it would seem that perfection is not achievable. Statistics bear this out and, IMO, it makes reasonable sense.

TagMan

dewey · March 2006

can't speak for everyone, but up to now buyers do not have any real options in term of getting both power and fuel economy in LPS models available.

And I certainly hope you dont consider a GS450h as an option for fuel economy. Forget those rose tinted EPA figures and let us look at the ugly unblemished reality behind the gas economy of a GS450H as reviewed by the Wall StreetJournal. Unfortunately you need a subcripiton to have access but here is a brief summary:

During a test-drive program on desert highways in Lake Mead National Park east of Las Vegas, the fuel-economy computer on a GS450h I drove registered an average 20.8 miles per gallon. But another GS450h I drove had racked up mileage just below 16 miles per gallon for the day -- presumably because some lead-footed auto writers didn't heed the warnings about vigilant park police.

So far, performance hybrids haven't proved as popular as the Toyota Prius, which remains in a class by itself in terms of how quickly they sell. Whether Lexus can succeed in defining hybrid technology as a 21st-century approach to luxury power --- and do so before the German brands launch their efforts to define 21st-century high performance as a high-tech, bio-fueled diesel  will be seen over the next two to three years.

I think it will be worth waiting the next 2 to 3 years for the new German biodiesels than buying a gas consuming GS450H , dont you think? Otherwise if you insist on the Toyota/Lexus approach then wait until they offer lithium ion batteries with improved hybrid technology.

WSJ Subscription Required

houdini1 · March 2006

At the start of the race, the Audi that eventally won was still in the pits getting a heat exchanger repaired and started way behind the field!! The other Audi led the race until the other one could catch up so one of them lead for every lap!!

Sign me up also.

dewey · March 2006

Lori Queen, a GM executive for small cars, couldn't take it anymore. In an e-mail exchange with Automotive News, she wrote that the editors and reporters who put together the Consumer Reports auto issue are "the most unprofessional group of people I have ever worked with."

She added: "They are totally nonobjective and go to great extremes to paint a picture for their paid subscription readers, who primarily buy Japanese cars.

"They don't consider price or price differences, they don't consider model mix or consumer preferences, they buy the cheapest car they can find (generally), and then base all their opinions on a limited sample."

Ofcourse GM PR tried to calm the emotions down after the above statements. Is there a grain of truth in what Queen is saying? I will leave that for forum members to decide.

link title

dewey · March 2006

Not necessarily so. As it turns out, in recent years the reliability of some of the Toyota/Lexus models has been SO high that there seems to be no statistical improvement that presents itself. It seems to have reached a threshold.

Call me a pessimist but I think it will be downhill from here. And I am not referring to Toyota/Lexus or Honda(the best among the best in terms of rated models), but to all auto makers.

In the past few decades or so corrosion was the biggest issue for a car's longetivity . In the future sophisticated automotive electronics and electrical features will make future cars more prone to expensive repairs than they are today. As a result unreliability. will become a bigger issue in the future.

2001gs430 · March 2006

During a test-drive program on desert highways in Lake Mead National Park east of Las Vegas, the fuel-economy computer on a GS450h I drove registered an average 20.8 miles per gallon. But another GS450h I drove had racked up mileage just below 16 miles per gallon for the day --

I wonder what would be the fuel economy number would be had they also tested a GS430 in parallel. Also, what were tests?

I am open to other alternatives that give both power and fuel economy. Given everything being equal, if turbo (Bio)diesel were a better option, then I would definitely vote with my wallet.

tagman · March 2006

mark,
Diesels have been around a long time. Remember the early ones? They are nothing like today's diesels. How many years did it take them to improve?

How many years have hybrids been on the scene? I think it's fair to say that they will improve and overcome many of their shortcomings. Also, they do provide some advantages. For now, they utilize traditional fuel. This is good, at least in the short run. They provide MORE power, not less. This is good. The batteries have been reliable and long-lived, and will improve even more. This is good. The efficiency will improve and the premium will decrease, making them more economically viable. The key is to realize that they are not only about fuel savings. Hybrids are also about cleaner emissions, and more horsepower.

Diesels are awesome. I absolutely love them. My view is that all this work on hybrid technology and all these improvements with diesels will possibly lead to a marriage of the two in more cars as time goes.

It makes sense to me that the upcoming improved hybrid technology could be put to great use in a modern diesel.

That's why I like them both so much. They each represent something significant to contribute . . . with the same goal . . . to achieve more efficient use of the real energy contained in fuel.

We are in exciting times, as the traditional gasoline ICE is being challenged from a number of directions. It won't be long before we're talking more seriously about hydrogen, but I still think it's significantly further out than the modern diesels and hybrids, which are in production cars.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

TagMan

tagman · March 2006

In the future sophisticated automotive electronics and electrical features will make future cars more prone to expensive repairs than they are today. As a result unreliability. will become a bigger issue in the future.

There is good logic to that statement. However, it may be just that the areas that have issues will shift. The rust issues were taken care of some time ago and were replaced by emissions-related issues. Perhaps you are right that there will be some increase in electronic issues. Already we are seeing "software" issues in our cars. Who would have imagined that? Bill Gates' fault?

TagMan

warthog · March 2006

I'm not particularly a fan of CR, but I do recall that in April 2003 CR announced that the BMW 530i "achieved the highest overall score of any vehicle CR has tested." No Japanese bias there.

shipo · March 2006

Funny thing. Prior to ordering my 2002 530i I'd never had a car that was "Recommended" by CR. When I found this little factoid out, I actually questioned my decision to get the 5er. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

pat · March 2006

Bill Gates' fault?

Of course it is! Isn't everything?

rayng · March 2006

As an 18 year CR subscriber, I take CR's recommendations with the understanding that consumers not enthusiasts are CR's audience. As a consumer, many of us value reliability, ergonomics, operating costs (which includes insurance, fuel economy, etc...) and everyday livability (comfort, road noise, trunk space, etc...). I challenge those who are CR haters to read the April CR car issue. That issue has lots of interesting comments on egress/ingress, visibility, and ergonomics. I find the CR info quite valuable in helping me make my decision to purchase German cars despite the less than steller reliability ratings.

As for my experience with CR's surveys (and I fill one out every year), I am not biased toward Lex/Toy over BMW or Porsche. If I have problems, I report them. If I don't I don't. Generally my car ownership experience has been consistent with survey results.

There's no conspiracy. CR's not out to destroy BMW, Audi, Daiml/Chryrsler, or the American brands. GM is quite adept at screwing up without CR's help.

lexusguy · March 2006

I dont think she's correct at all. I'm sorry, but the best GM has right now is average, competent cars. (With perhaps the exception of their new full-size SUVs which actually are better than the competition). Thats better than what they've had 5 years ago, but you dont win awards with average cars. Did she really expect the Cobalt to win CR's highest rating just because GM is having a bad day?

CR's highest rated small cars are the Civic, Focus, and Jetta, which incidentally happen to represent Japan, America, and Europe. I dont see any one-sided favoritism there. I dont recall the Cobalt earning a 10-best award, or being gushed over by every automag only to be snubbed by the jerks at CR. Sorry GM, but you just have to try harder.

rayng · March 2006

We should blame Melinda too for their humanitarian work. God forbid all those lives they're saving will results in higher demand for gas, and thereby increasing the pennies I pay to fill up my race car. Shame on you Bill. :P

rayng · March 2006

There's always room for improvement in reliability as our cars become increasingly stuffed with gagetry. With backup cameras and navigation/traffic systems, our cars are so filled with electronics that we are almost certain that we'll have long-term problems. For example, the navigation in my wife's rx330 tells us we're living in the middle of the pacific ocean. While I swim with sharks everyday, I'm definitely not underwater.

Lexus never claimed to be perfect, only that it's goal was to pursue it. There's nothing wrong with pursuing perfection. Our pursuit of happiness is at the heart of who we are as Americans.

By the way, the M35 is a fine automobile. I don't fault CR for its opinion and high regard for that car. I rented that car for 2 months and thoroughly enjoyed its fine, balanced driving dynamics, the deep rumble of its the exhaust notes, generally had lots of fun racing around town in it. Ergonomics and seats are top notched. Would I pay $51k for it? No. Why? Because for the same $, I can get an '03 530 instead. It's also a bit ugly IMO.

markcincinnati · March 2006

I would be willing to stipulate that CR is "a" source of information pertaining (in this case) to the cars we enjoy discussing and arguing about here. I would also like to stipulate that MY opinion is that the posters (bloggers) words written here have many times more influence (for me) than Automobile, CAR, Car & Driver, European Car, Motor Trend, Road & Track AND Consumer's Reports.

When we seem to have (for me) the greatest value (to ourselves and "the world") perhaps is when we have multiple data points that agree with each other.

My personal use or non-use of CR and yours are just that, personal. If we are simply looking for a reliable car, I guess it is possible (perhaps likely) to lend credence to what CR says and not "get bit in da butt."

Clearly there are several opinions pertaining to CR, basically there appear to be the believers and the non-believers. I am mostly in the latter camp. BGO (blinding glimpse of the obvious,) eh? :surprise:

The proof is in the driving, for me. My experience with reliability (despite the fact that I have been driving German cars for about 30+ years) doesn't convince me that I need to know what the reliability scores are (beyond what y'all post here.) If I read that "X" has been a problem with the Mercedes and I read it more than once, that becomes a data point. I tend to discount the "DON'T BUY the such and such" rants as I discount the "everything is 110% perfect" gushes.

This breed, this specific class (LPS) seems hell-bent to become more and more alike in almost every way leaving the main areas of attraction as styling and perceived value (AKA price within limits.)

But, as usual, I am often wrong, never uncertain and just one voice (screaming in the wilderness.) :shades:

tagman · March 2006

Lexus never claimed to be perfect, only that it's goal was to pursue it. There's nothing wrong with pursuing perfection.

Couldn't agree more. The point I was making, however, was that it is only a pursuit, and can not be achieved in reality. The statistical data for reliability is measureable . . . otherwise no data could be collected and represented. This measurement can never achieve perfection. So, from a statistical standpoint, there seems to be a threshhold that presents itself as "the best that can be achieved, short of perfection". Obviously Toyota/Lexus and Honda have reached that "plateau" or "ceiling".

Dewey's point was that perhaps the future will trend downwards . . . in light of all the electronics. I responded that I could see the logic to that, but it is also possible that the service "issues" will just shift from previous weaknesses to modern weaknesses. The concensus here seems to be that the electronic gadgets may be the current or future weakness in reliability.

BTW, if your wife's GPS is truly placing you in the middle of the Pacific, the GPS may be set to the wrong "zone" and simply needs to be reset and re-initialized. That would be "user error".

TagMan

cmybimmergo · March 2006

Hell no! Everything's MY fault. Just ask the husbad. :P

hpowders · March 2006

She is right of course about CR's favoring Japanese vehicles.

How else to explain the new M35 given a CR red circle for predicted better then average reliability when it's in fact a new model with absolutely no survey feedback from its members.

hpowders · March 2006

Uhhhh....When the new 2004 5 series came out, CR indicated no predicted reliability because it was a new model.

And yet when the new M35 came out, with absolutely no survey feedback from its members, CR gave this new vehicle a red circle indicating excellent reliability.
Based on what?

Sounds like bias to me.

docnukem · March 2006

But the Japanese Fuga was out for some time. Maybe they are using thst.

hpowders · March 2006

When I found out CR gave satisfactory reliability ratings to all current 5 series save the 545, I immediately leased the 545.
Sure enough, absolutely no trouble over the last 8 months.
CR is valuable to me sadly as a contrary indicator.

hpowders · March 2006

But they base their predicted reliability on surveys sent to subscribers.
There had been no subscriber input on the new M35 when they took it upon themselves to predict excellent reliability.
CR may have once been a magazine with integrity, but they have sadly fallen from grace, IMO.

james27 · March 2006

As has been stated previously, engine, transmission, and many other parts of that car have been around for years with good reliability.

dhamilton · March 2006

As far as the consumer reports goes, what sticks out to me most is once again GM [or a employee that doesn't neccisarily represent the views of the company

] is once again blaming their problems on someone else. Typical of GM, their crap is someone else's fault.
As far as the Audi story.....WOW...what a shame that Audi isn't bombarding us via TV, and any other medium with this amazing story. I recently was talking with General sales manager at my local Audi dealer and he was saying that Audi's position on marketing in the US is that it's about seventh on a list of about ten other countries. None the less, what amazing engineering coming from Audi.

anthonyp · March 2006

I agree---they have slipped---Most stuff is meaningless as the product with the highest rating is not sold where I live, and in some cases I wonder where it is sold...Further the product number has changed by the time of publication....I use to take what they said to heart, and now am not going to renew the subscription..The straw that broke the camels back was the reports on HDTV etc...I`d rather have no guidance than poor guidance Tony

hpowders · March 2006

The M35 is classified as a newly designed vehicle.
As such, CR should not have given it a better than average reliability rating without several years of required survey data input from its subscribers backing that claim up. As such, the M35 should not have been given any reliability rating at the time CR tested it.
That's their rule. I'm not making it up.

Spin it anyway you like if it makes you feel better.

What they did with the M35 damages their credibility in my opinion, and shows a distinct bias in favor of Japanese vehicles.

gohorns1 · March 2006

"They don't consider price or price differences, they don't consider model mix or consumer preferences, they buy the cheapest car they can find (generally), and then base all their opinions on a limited sample."

I'm not quite sure what she means. If I am not mistaken, and if I am I am sure to be corrected, CR does group cars by price. As to the model mix, if the cars are unreliable then the number of models doesn't matter. But as far as the 5 series, CR actually did consider model mix as it gave improved ratings except to the V8 (bring it on hpowders). It seems that those whose cars are not supported by CR have the complaints. Maybe the bias is in the reader and not the mag?

houdini1 · March 2006

I have not seen this particular article but...sometimes CR will show a predicted or expected reliability (as opposed to actual observed reliability) based on performance of similar vehicles from the manufacturer. My guess is that is what happened in this case. Anyone know for sure?

I am no big fan of CR and I too would trust my own experience much more than their ratings. That said, my own common sense tells me that the M35 will probably be very reliable. Further more, since CR seems to agree with me on this one, they must have something on the ball!!

lexusguy · March 2006

Its tricky business to make a reliability guess based on manufacturer history. While its true that in the past Infiniti vehicles have had very good reliability, those older cars all came from Japan. The NA built QX56 has horrible problems, and CR would certainly have some 'splainin to do if they predicted excellent reliability for it based on data from the old QX4.

Personally, I dont pay much attention to the "predicted" scores, as who really knows what kind of fuzzy math is used to come up with them.

rayng · March 2006

You guys should read Consumer Report before commenting. On page 56 of the April 2005 issue, CR rates reliability of the '05 Infiniti M35/45 as NEW. Satisfaction is also NEW and depreciation is N/A. There were NO predicted reliability scores for the M35/45 in that issue (see page 87).

In the April 2006 issue, page 55, CR clearly says "first year reliability has been outstanding."

For the latest survey, CR "received responses for just over 1 million vehicles." Here's their methodology for new car predictions. "The Predicted Reliability Ratings are shown in the Vehicle Ratings chart (page 23) and vehicle profiles (page 39). For this we averaged a model's Used Car Verdict for the most recent three years, provided the vehicle did not change significantly in that time and hasn't been redesigned for 2006/2007. [Note this is the reason why the 2005 issue did not include reliability predictions for the latest M35/45.] We have found that several model years' data are a better predictor than the single most recent model year. One or two years' data may be used if the model was redesigned in 2005 or 2004, or if there we insufficient data for more years. Sometimes we include a prediction for a model that is new or has been redesigned, provided its reliability history or the manufacturer's track record has been consistently above average."

Again, I do not think CR survey results are not biased. But for some reason, I think several people on this board are biased againt CR despite many positive reviews of HELM and LPS cars. The 5 series, SLK, and even Porsches are among their recommended used cars (page 80-81). In fact, CR claims the '01-'03 5 series as reliable used cars.

By accusing CR of being biased, I think that just reinforces the stereotype that almost all Japanese cars are reliable but European cars are not. The truth can only be found by looking at the specific car and model year. Even then, individual cars, conditions, and drivers vary.

As for me, I don't always agree with CR either, but I do think there's no conspiracy. Neither Lexus or Infinit run ads on CR. In fact, there are no car ads unlike the other car enthusiast rags. CR buys their own cars off a dealer's lot for the monthly car reviews. No matter what CR, MT, or C&D says, it's our money and we'll spend it the way we like.

hpowders · March 2006

The Infiniti M35 was tested for the September 2005 issue of CR and had been given a very good reliability rating at that time. The car was available for sale in February 2005.
On page 51 of that issue, the car was recommended as "having SHOWN average or better reliability."
Knowing how CR obtains information for its circles of reliability, I continue to question how at that early date with little or no survey input from its readers, and a relatively new model, it could go ahead and assume the new M35 would have few reliability issues.

markcincinnati · March 2006

Mother Nature can't read the calendar apparently, for we have a winter weather warning here in Cincinnapolis, the schools are closed, the brine, salt and snow-plow trucks are on overtime. High alert, high drama!?! :surprise:

"There's a lobster loose, cover yourselves in butter and carry lemons just in case! There's gonna be a tragedy!"

So my A6 and I venture out onto the subdivision street -- what's the big deal? This is a non-event.

The weather folks are giddy and drunk with power announcing we're having a 5" snow-fall rate per hour. Yea, true enough, but it only snowed for about 3 minutes, so, let's see what does that come out to in millimeters per fortnight of accumulation -- can you say "heavy dusting"?

I-275 looms, eh -- now for some real fun? Hmm, uh oh,looks clear enough -- why are all these cars facing the wrong way, way way off the shoulders "as if" they spun out?

I "gently" mash the brakes -- damn, the ABS and ESP don't even wake up. Well, I've got plenty of room all around, let's see what a bit of oversteering does.

Waaah waaah -- not even a little tail wag.

I even wore jeans, muck-lucks and my black leather Planet Hollywood (Prague Czech Republic) jacket this morning, so I could look the part. Shhh. Don't tell anyone, I even dug out my pair of Smart Wool socks for the festivities.

My office, thirteen people -- three of us show up.

I demand a real snow-fall, one last harrah from MN (Mother Nature, not Minnesota) before opening day at the Great American Ballpark.

Note to self, new IS250AWD (deep dark red pearl) passes on my left, as if I were standing still -- hmmm from the rear it is better looking than a BMW 3xi.

The traffic is thin, but I do note it is made up almost entirely of SUV's and what I am pretty certain are AWD sedans of all ilks.

Maybe what I need is a good old fashioned rear-wheel-drive car to get some drama going.

I think I'll just go back home and go to bed.

Buncha whimps (wimps?) here in the Queen City. . .buncha whimps!

Well, there's always next winter to look forward to!

dewey · March 2006

Every forum contribution so far about Jaguar is related to the following prescription for their problems: cancel the X type and focus on high priced luxury cars.

I dont think a Jaguar solely focused on the upper LPS and HELM segment is what is going to reincarnate Jaguar to its former greatness. What will help them re-gain their greatness is to produce exciting cars that emphasize sporty performance in the lower and upper end of the auto market. In Jaguar's glory days they also produced affordable sporty cars like the shooting brake shown below.

I think a new AWD sport wagon competing with the likes of Audi A3 and a BMW 1 series would be a great idea.(I have a bias for small sport wagons)

In fact it appears Jaguar is seriously considering the idea.

link title

lexusguy · March 2006

Interesting, so it appears that Jaguar changes their mind about what kind of car maker they want to be, yet again. You cant compete with Maserati and Bentley with a high $20s sport hatch, so I assume that plan is off. Who are they going after now? VW?

dewey · March 2006

How businesslike will it be for Ford to push Jaguars upscale at the cost of volume? How will their existing dealers survive with lower volumes? Are fewer cars going to pay the pensions/healthcare of British retirees? Will it be worthwhile for Ford to be investing in expensive platforms that are not shared by Fords?

I can understand why you want Jag to become more upscale. But how much is VW really making from the relative success on the low volume sales of upscale Bentleys? IMO I dont think Bentley is making a pfennig of a difference on VW's bottom line.

rayng · March 2006

The quote on page 51 refers to the legend used to define the red check marks CR places on vehicles it recommends. If you were to read CR's report on the M35, "reliability is LIKELY to be very good." Again, on page 57, CR predicts reliability to be very good. It's just a prediction.

Now why did CR make this prediction? Perhaps it used generally positive the 03 survey results? CR did account for the redesign in '03 and in '05 with the red model year in the reliability ratings chart (page 88).

For 2005, CR has since updated its reliability ratings to: 1) used car verdicts which is compiled by surveys; and 2) new car predictions.

The very good rating the m35 earned is in the later category.

If CR were truly biased, it would have given the A6 a poor reliability rating (Sept '05, page 53). Instead CR was pretty fair in giving the new A6 the benefit of the doubt by saying, "Reliability is unknown, but the previous A6 was not reliable." Survey results for the A6 from 1998-2003 support CR's assertion that the A6 for those years were below average in overal reliability.

cheerioboy26 · March 2006

CR's treatment of the M35 is no different than other makes that have been historically reliable. CR will predict reliability if the automaker has a history (recent, I suppose) of reliable cars. When a new car is tested from an automaker that has inconsistent or unreliable vehicles (from their surveys of course), they will generally not make a reliability predicition, and state "new". They are not treating the M35 differently than I have seen them treat other cars in the 10 years I've subscribed. FWIW.

lexusguy · March 2006

Well, all of those dealers came on board as a result of the first push to make Jag into a volume brand, which resulted in the failed X-type. It's not that I personally want Jag to become an exotic car manufacturer; something that would compete with the Continental GT and Flying Spur would be a bit out of my price range.

Its just until recently, that was supposedly the direction that PAG wanted to go with Jag. I get the feeling that the guys in charge really have no idea what they're doing.

houdini1 · March 2006

I am considering buying this car from an acquaintance of mine. He is selling because of recently getting a new job along with a company car. The car has 65,000 miles but is impeccable. Silver with black leather. Mostly highway miles. New tires and battery. No nav. It also has the Acura Care b to b extended warranty with 3 years and up to 100,000. miles. This can be transferred for $50.

Price is $18,000. My question is....Deal or no deal?

jjshein · March 2006

I'd have to agree with CR on their A6 rating. I've driven an 02 A6 2.7T for 50,000 miles, and gone through 7 sets of rotors. That's right, I've had the dealer change the brakes more often than the oil. It's not like I take the car out on the track, just routine commuting...

tagman · March 2006

houdini1, for what it's worth, I took a little time to check out some of the pricing on that vehicle. I noticed an unusual range of prices, from about $15K all the way to mid-twenties. I could not find enough differences in equipment to explain it, and even the mileage did not fully account for the large price spread. From what I could gather, it definately seems as though the car and price your acquaintance is offering you is very fair, and somewhat better than average, as compared to the many other vehicles that are listed, especially with the new tires and warranty, but it doesn't appear to be one of those incredible "once in a blue moon" deals that you'd be crazy to pass up. But, I'd certainly get some more feedback from some of the others on this forum, just to keep it balanced. Whatever you do . . . I want to wish you good luck!!
TagMan

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