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Note that the moonroof rattle was a design flaw found in the early builds of the M. I immediately noticed the problem and took my new M back to the dealer. Not only did the service manager and dealership owner bend over backwards to help me but Infiniti sent over some engineers from Japan to look at my car. They gave me a $300 gift card for my troubles, fixed my car, immediately issued a TSB (photos of my car!) plus ordered a fix at the factory so no cars after the first few months would have the same problem. Do you honestly think any other manufacturer would have done anywhere near the same? Infiniti wants this car to be the best and have shown a willingness to listen to the customer. Keep in mind it's a brand new design with almost no brand loyalty.
I've driven 18K miles in the past 14 months with no other issues. My local Infiniti dealer also comped my 7.5K service. I did have to pay the $255 bill for the 15K service. By the way I'm averaging 18.95 mph for a 50/50 mix driving.
I too have previously owned a BMW, Lexus and MB. Based soley on my ownership experience (and chatting with other owners and managers in the respective service departments), I would still rate the Lexus as best but Infiniti is close. I have to own the Infiniti for a few more years to see how things play out. BMW was below average - I would still buy another however no way would I own it pass the warranty period - so leasing is the way to go - plus they sub vent their leases. (Note Infiniti is doing the same with their leases... where did they get the idea?). The MB proved to be a real POS. I will never own one of their cars again! For that kind of money I was expecting a whole lot more.
Keep in mind none of these cars as a whole are bad. Probably 90+% of BMW owners have no problems (including everyone on this forum) so I can see how many would have no problems with three or four cars. But then again if you compare it to 98+% of Lexus owners with no problems - well then you can see how some would rate the Lexus as more reliable. Of course if you're one of the unlucky 10%, well life sucks. I'm happy for all the car owners on this forum who have no problems. I don't wish for any car owner to suffer. Believe me, I've met some of those 10% and they weren't happy campers.
2. Lexus - 93 problems per 100 vehicles
7. Cadillac - 117
7. Infiniti - 117
10. Acura - 120
Industry Average - 124
25. MB - 139
27. BMW - 142
Let the spinning begin.....
If the industry average is 124 per 100, which means, I presume, 1.24 problems on average per car for 90 days, I enjoyed problems worse than all of these cars.
Funny, I guess, even though I can recall these issues, I would in casual conversation (with no intention of hiding anything) say that my 2005 A6 which will soon be 13 months old has been "virtually" flawless.
My perception, my reality -- even though technically the problems I described (which did extend to 4 total pushbutton starter switches before it was apparently fixed permanently) really don't bother me very much at all -- when adjusted to be factually accurate means I have had a lousy 13 month run, despite the fact that my impression is otherwise.
Ja? :confuse:
Seriously, so far the car has been flawless; the service knowledge less so. I'm coming from a series of MB's (E430 / E55 / E500) and before that Lexus. This car is consistently the most fun of the group, although the Lexus LS400's were completely trouble free and the dealer service was incredible. Hope Infiniti lives up to them in the former area and improves in the latter department.
One website I googled upon broke down the results and BMW did not only suffer, in ranking, from design ("we don't like how iDrive works") complaints, but also defects and malfunctions:
Brand-Defects-Malfunctions-Design Problems
Infiniti-117-57-52
Audi-130- 60-62
BMw-142-52-82
Mercedes-139-65-68
Lexus-93-42-45
BMW: Very impersonal. The "you want it or not?" mentality.
Lexus: Salesman took his time with me, made me feel special.
I leased a BMW, however, because of the great lease deal and free maintenance.
I recommended my Lexus salesperson which resulted in a sale and he sent me $100 in gratitude.
When I lease my next vehicle, it will be to the Lexus Dealership where I will be going first.
Ditto the Audi store.
However, the experience at the Lexus dealer may, for all I know (which is not much on this aspect) be as good, worse or better.
The BMW store does stand out as a major case study on "How to make customers feel special."
Arrogance? Nope.
Take it or leave it? Nope.
Have a homemade cookie & some fresh brewed Starbucks? Yep.
that experiences at one, two, even several dealerships aren't the best way to decide anything about a brand. In all the years I've been hosting here, I can tell you that I have learned there is NO brand that doesn't have bad dealerships and NO brand that doesn't have good ones, at least of the brands that we mostly discuss.
And the other thing is that you are buying a vehicle for some number of years - the experience with the dealership will be over and done with, however bad or good it was, relatively quickly in the scheme of things.
FWIW ... :shades:
And, that reminds me of car ownership. There are quite a few people who spend a lot of money to own a car that does not fit their social status, meaning someone who only makes $60,000 a year, buys or lease a M45.
For those people, they will expect both the car to be trouble free and the dealership experience should be excellent because from their perspective, I have spent a fortune on this car.
However, if that someone makes $200,000 or more a year, then that someone does not care much about both the car and the dealership since to that someone, it is well within his/her financial means. So, when you buy a car that is within your financial means, you are usually not bothered by the problems of the car and bad experience of the dealership.
You will still have problems with your car and bad experience with dealership no matter who you are and what kind of car you own
Just my 2 cents...
The second time in, the salesperson gave me the keys to any BMW vehicle I wanted to test drive and never came with me.
I went out with 5 different BMW's for as long as I liked.
It's a bit better when they know they have a "live one."
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Both BMW and MB scored poorly in the latest Powers survey and as expected their owners are challenging the new techniques employed and not really paying attention to what the results revealed. Of course if their cars had rated much better (like Porsche) they would be praising Powers on how appropriate their new survey was - that's what I meant when I said let the spin begin.
Both suffered from defects - both mechanical and design related. If something is poorly designed but works properly, isn't that an issue the manufacturer might want to know about?
One of the folks, now retired, I worked with would only buy Cadillacs. He bought a new one every 24 months period.
He hated his dealership experience, to hear him tell it the dealer was full of crooks and boobs.
If I felt that way, I probably couldn't stick with the dealership -- which may or may not bleed over into the brand.
My experience with the BMW dealership, noted earlier, is real and true but I posted it because I felt, like our host, apparently, that ONE dealer (reported here) does not exactly represent the BRAND universally.
I have dealt with, at most, 10 dealerships. Most of them are, these days, pretty savvy and subtle when it comes to customer relations. Since I have only bought from 2 dealerships over the past two decades, I sure am NOT a great representative sample.
My wife and I have shopped at a bunch of dealers -- even the old crusty dealer facility in a small town outside of Wierton WVA was "pleasant" and apparently aware of the times, even though his dealership appeared to be right out of the 60's (the 1860's!!!)
Heck, maybe (and I am saying this for effect) I keep going back to the same dealership and the same sales guy 'cause its better to keep close to the devil you know rather than the devil you don't know.
I am kidding, but there could be some truth to the phrase, people do business with people they like and in the absence of that trait, people often do business with people they know and then when all those they like and know are no more, they do business with strangers.
The first time I met the Infiniti salesperson, I assumed he was not there to help me get what "I" wanted -- I hope this is the case, but, OF COURSE, I was wrong. Even though I ended up cancelling the order, I would not hesitate to buy from him and indeed have been back several times to take prospects to him and he is always gracious and gregarious to both his prospect and to me.
I'll tell you a sort of secret. My Audi sales guy has to be NORTH of 70 years old. I am 55.
I keep hoping he holds out until he is at least 85 cause I'd like to have his gig when I'm, oh, about 67.
There are some youngsters at the dealership and they are good folks too (in their late 20's, mostly with graduate school degrees and several of them speak at least two languages fluently.) I just can't wait for them to age, however. :surprise:
When I grew up it was insurance and car salespeople who were the scourge of the earth -- from where I sit, many of them have pretty sweet gigs anymore. And, they are no longer thought of poorly, rather many seem to be pillars of the community.
Sign me up when I get older, in fact (uh selling cars, not insurance, to be clear.) :shades:
I don't own an Audi, but find them aesthetically exciting (exterior and interior) and very enjoyable to drive. There are obviously people who would say the say thing about other cars, whether they have bought them or not (I've never had the money to own every car I'd love to drive).
Skimming this forum and forums devoted to specific brands, there seems to be as much or more heat generated with regard to Audi than any other brand. If cognitive dissonance is contributing to the heat, I wonder if it might be because Audi is unique in evoking in so many of us a sense of the possibility of the "perfect" LPS, but, of course, falls short of fulfilling the fantasy. That exact situation is known to bring out, on one hand, highly protective-defensive feelings, and, on the other hand, very hateful feelings.
Terry in RWTIV calls it the Rule of 21s..
You ask 21 people the same question, until you get the answer you want to hear...
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Hmmm....I would have thought that MB and Lexus were the two biggies involved with such cognitive dissonance.
You all look pretty knowledgeable about these cars and so I have a question. I want to buy a sedan in the upto 50k range. These are some of the things I absolutely want: 1. Reliability for atleast the next 5 years, do not want to see the dealership for ANYthing except routine maintenance 2. It should not be a smog producer, even if it is 8 cylinder 3. Should be able to drive in Northeast Ohio in January, AWD would be preferable 4. smooth ride,insulated cabin, no unneccessay road noise 5. Don't care much for fancy gadgetry 6. Best value for money.
The one that keeps popping up in my mind, talk of cognitive dissonance, is the Acura RL. Lets see what the next 21 people tell me, then I'll go buy the RL.
Thanks.
4 said BMW 530xi
4 said Lexus GS 300 AWD
4 said Audi A6 quattro
4 said Acura RL
5 said Infiniti M35x
I guess the M wins....Okay, I really just guessed on the first twenty people and then threw my 2 cents in the mix.
Really, though, if you like the RL, you should buy it assuming they have fixed the initial electrical hiccups. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. The only concern I have is the 5 year plan thing. That might knock out the Audi and BMW. Of course, any car can have problems out of warranty just as any can be perfect for many years. The odds are just better with some of them, though.
Things to consider:
1) Reliability: GS300, M35x, and maybe RL (hiccups again)
2) AWD: All of the above have it, the implementations vary.
3) Fancy gadgetry: The RL is the only one that comes fully loaded all the time; the others will let you pick and choose. Personally, I feel the Infiniti probably has the most when it is fully loaded.
4) Smog producer: Well, the Infiniti gets the worst mileage.
5) Best value: Most might say the M35x, but there are probably great deals (i.e. discounts) on the RL.
I am really trying to decide about a car and then just shop for it online. I am not too keen on test driving any of them, if I can avoid it.
Wow, that's probably the most surprising statement I have ever read on any of these boards - and that's going some!
These cars do not all drive the same; you are potentially setting yourself up for a real disappointment if you don't drive any car you are considering before buying it. For one example, just because some folks think the M35x is a little too loud doesn't mean you would have the same reaction. Some of these models ride harsher than others; whether any one of them is the right combination of control vs. softness for you is something you can only determine by driving. What if you bought the RL and found the seat couldn't be adjusted to feel comfortable for you?
Please tell us that you were just kidding! :confuse:
To tell you the truth, I was just kidding when I said I won't test drive the car I want. But knowing myself and my cognitive dissonance, I would not find anything wrong with the car I have made up my mind to buy. You may advise me not to hit the dealership with my mind already set on something. My response would be that there's no way I can test drive so many different cars and tell the difference.
The data that is currently available shows that the RL is fairly riddled with electrical problems. Read Car and Driver's long term test of their RL, they were back to the dealer eight times to fix often the same electrical problem. If reliability means more to you than anything else, the Acura is probably not your best bet.
I started out feeling the way you do and completely reversed my position. At this level of car, if you don't feel some sense of excited anticipation walking to the car and some sense of visceral pleasure driving it -- whether it's high speed road-gripping turns or whether it's that you like sitting in it -- why bother?
How to predict that you will feel that way when you drive the car everyday is another matter. I have come to think that it partly depends on you past experience with yourself. How good do you think you are at predicting what you'll like and won't like? If your sense of yourself is that you've been able to do that, in different decision-making situations, without any direct sampling, then maybe you're the rare one who can predict their own satisfaction with a car ust by reading about them.
Really, there are a lot of other cars that I would prefer, but given your stated preferences, I think those would be the best ones..
I think the RL has a lot more power, though, if that is important to you..
The big advantage? Both models are selling way below MSRP, right now...
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Not really. While it still has 290hp in 2006 SAE spec, the problem is torque is only 256ft.lbs, and in the usual Honda way, you dont see any of that until the engine is above 4,000 revs. From what I remember, the RL is not much if any faster than the GS300.
GS300 AWD... 245hp, 230 ft/lbs torque.. 3759 lbs..
RL.. 290hp, 256 ft/lbs torque... 4012 lbs..
From Car and Driver..
GS300 AWD.. 0-60 6.8 seconds..
RL.. 0-60 6.3 seconds..
That's all I'm saying...
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Combine that with the GS's longer warranty and vastly superior 1st year reliability, and I think the GS makes a lot more sense.
Get an MB (or Audi) product.
Get it with both AWD and a diesel powerplant.
As the warranty period nears term, if you actually plan to keep the car beyond the warranty (in miles or years) CPO the car.
The MB diesels are quick, quiet, clean, efficient and generally reliable -- and the cars they inhabit are built like safes. Audi diesels, too, have excellent durability and reliability going for them and their cars are well made.
The issue may be the price, but the lease may surprise you and the street price or TCO may (I said MAY) not be as bad as you have heard.
Otherwise the discounted Acura RL or Lexus GS/AWD version certainly have the reputations for reliability that you have placed at number 1.
Try, at least, the MB diesel just for kicks.
:surprise:
Now, the above comments assume you can wait for the promised TDI (USA certified) AWD versions which have been announced or pre-announced as "coming soon."
I think that experience was one reason I was so wowed by both the M35 and the A6.
You are absolutely correct, until the "real" numbers become available (probably never), all of the surveys are simply -- interesting!!!
But, one thing never changes -- Life is Better at the Beach!
Many articles will tell you that it's not worth the cost of the extended warranty. Again, in my humble opinion, that's just not so! Figure it out; hourly rates, cost of parts, etc., etc. Peace of mind is worth something, as well. Anyway, good-luck! I don't think there is anything mechanical that might not break down.
No problems at all.
My 3 BMW's have indeed been wonderful.
I have never been asked to participate in any JD Power surveys.
I am far from alone in having trouble-free experiences.
You can believe what you want to believe.
Those surveys are a crock,IMO.
If BMW's had such terrible problems, why are sales going throught the roof?
People aren't stupid.
That's why they wouldn't touch Audis.
I think it's important to consider the source of CR "data." Those who categorize cars the same way as CR does its core competencies (appliances & house paint) are generally NOT (that would be NOT) automobile enthusiasts.
I'll tolerate CR's appliance & paint ratings (we do subscribe), but have always (well, for the last 40 years) taken their opinions of things like audio equipment, cameras & other products for which professionals & enthusaists wouldn't be caught dead using the "check rated" item with well more than a grain of salt.
Here's a question CR might ask: How do you routinely transport yourself? a) walk, b) bicycle, c) mass transit, d) evil resource-sucking, carbon-dioxide-producing, non-recyclable-product-containing, single-person-carrying selfish product? If you're so bold as to choose d), then you'd by-god better be driving a Prius or Corolla -- Civics are OK, I think.
CR probably still makes a fortune selling their invoice pricing data (though I'd bet a lot less than they did before the internet), "how to buy a car" & "how not to get screwed" stuff to the car-buying (computer-averse) masses, so they've decided to nod now and again to the enthusiast or otherwise irresponsible car-driving masses.
However, their core supporters buy most things just as they'd buy appliances & house paint -- the truly anal also endure the half-hour or more it takes to fill out the annual survey book & don't (IMNHO) represent anyone who has passion about anything on earth but saving money in a PC fashion -- this cohort values green efficiency above all else.
Some of us are at the other end of that scale, where cars are concerned.
That's what I posted elsewhere, and to your "Life is Better at the Beach," I'd respond, Life is often better in the mountains.
Enjoy that beach.
I got a similar impression driving the RL. It doesn't accelerate, especially from a standstill, nearly as fast as its 290hp would suggest.
Couple of comments to make about your other choices. If you're interested in something faster than the RL, the GS300 AWD is probably not going to satisfy you. Weren't you looking for an AWD car? The IS350 and M45 are both RWD only. The IS250 AWD is pretty slow, and its also a very small car.. I'm not sure how important rear seat room is to you, but the IS basically doesn't have any.
If you're genuinely interested in an entry-lux car like the TL or IS, a G35x could be a good choice. It actually has room for adults in the back, and with the new G about to hit, I'm sure you could get a very sweet deal on an '06. Then of course there's always the 330xi, A4 3.2, and C-class 4matic to consider.
The new Gx from Infiniti if it follows the trend, will be either bigger or better packaged -- or both. Knowing Infiniti it will have AT LEAST the 280HP engine, which I can attest is quite potent.
Mercedes upcoming turbo diesel 4Matics (if you indeed can wait) still would be right up there, at least for evaluation purposes.
I don't know a lot of folks with Mercedes -- the ones I do have the diesel versions and some of them are well beyond 150,000 miles with little more than routine servicing.
The Energy act of 2005 provides the buyers of one of these clean diesels with a tax credit similar to the hybrid's too.
If you can wait.