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"Unlike the BMW, which feels a little twitchy as it nears the limit of adhesion, the AMG hugs the tarmac." I had previously thought it impossible (as in against the laws of nature) for a n auto mag to say specifically that another car outperformed a comparable bimmer in that specific area of performance. The editors continued to list the ways in which they found the Mercedes better to drive than the bimmer: "There is also less lift-off weight transfer, less acceleration squat, and less brake dive, and, despite the subdued body movements, you always know where you are on the speed and g-force map." However, the AMG "surpasses the [Audi] S6 only by a whisker."
And they retested power ratings to conform to the new standard.
2007 M35 "lost" 5 hp (275 hp) and 2 torque (268 torque). 2007 M45 "lost" 10 hp (325 hp) and 4 torque (336 torque).
I'll go out on a limb here then and say I do think badge effect is real. When the rubber hits the road, or the check hits the bank, however, I believe people would buy what they like.
I tend to think that in a universe of ONLY badge effect, people would STILL buy the car that they most liked based on styling. Of course, this would still probably be tempered by badge effect -- assuming price parity.
In other words, people would buy the car they liked the looks of within the badge. For some that would mean the "best looking" BMW (best looking to them, that is.)
For others, of course, it would be the best looking Cadillac.
Being in the US it is impossible for me, at least, to put Audi on the same tier as BMW and Mercedes. Likewise it is impossible for me to put Cadillac on any other tier than the lowest. Moreover, if that means putting Audi on tier two or tier three, Cadillac would have to be on tier three or tier four.
Likewise, Lexus and Infiniti (to me) have the same badge effect -- but (to me) Lexus just plain builds uninvolving cars in which to sit behind the wheel. So, for that and only that reason, the overall positive effect of the Lexus badge is largely neutralized. Ininiti would be my Japanese choice, that is.
Currently, for no other than things I cannot wipe out of my memory, Acura, despite its apparent stellar comeback, still has the hangover from the previous generation (to me) -- besides, Acura has simply not ever been able to command the badge effect that Lexus, for instance, has, so it is, for the time being relegated to Cadillac's status.
In the US then (personal choice for "badge"):
o BMW & Mercedes
o Infiniti & Lexus
o Audi
o - the rest
I have driven most of the cars here, some of them extensively. There are times when I would place the Germans all on the same tier from that perspective (driving, performance, etc.)
The Lexus and sadly the Jaguar would be on the same level as the Cadillac from that perspective and, oddly, that might make an STS/4 with all the toys preferable to the Lexus no matter what the badge effect.
Overall, the cars in this crowd are more alike (to me) than they are different, despite all the above. :shades:
( sigh )
- Ray
Always shopping . .
Very bizzare as he usually has nothing but praise for Audi.
Admittedly, i have toyed with the idea of picking up a CPO'd xj8 at some point. I do think it's a good car in objective terms, particularly for the money.
dave
I just had a few questions before I went out price shopping:
1. Does anyone have any gripes at all about the car?
2. Does anyone out there think the AWD is worth it?
3. I think I read that the '07 would be coming with a 6-speed... Should I wait?
4. Does anyone know of any other major changes in the near future? I was thinking about a CTS, but not with a redesign planned for the '08...
5. Any other tips/comments
Thanks
I am aware that the Y2K Jag S-Type shared substantial platform configuration and motors trans with the Lincoln LS. The two diverged much further for the 2003 MY. If there are any Taurus parts (I’d be very surprised) they are likely nothing that would significantly effect performance or occupant driving \ riding experience – and I’d be very curious to see a source for that statement.
- Ray
Driver of 2000 & 2003 Lincoln LS – s . .
Check the STS only board as a starting point. After extensive test drives of the car, I would certainly consider it at least for 50,000 miles. My only issue was that without the "sporting bits" it was numb -- and even with the magna ride was a little (very little) vague compared to a German car.
2. Does anyone out there think the AWD is worth it?
Oh for pity's sake, don't even get me started -- the only way to go with this car is with the AWD; and this AWD system has received praise from other than AWD fanatics like me. Really.
3. I think I read that the '07 would be coming with a 6-speed... Should I wait?
You can wait til the cows come home, the '07 will have the 5 speed unless you are willing to spring for the V8.
4. Does anyone know of any other major changes in the near future? I was thinking about a CTS, but not with a redesign planned for the '08...
What do you mean "near future" -- two years perhaps, but for '07 and '08, the only real change I can imagine is the offering of the 6speed in the V6 in time for the '08 model year. Note to self: the V6 would gain the most from the 6speed automatic who in the wide wide world of sports thought putting it first in the V8 was a brilliant idea?
5. Any other tips/comments
Negotiate, negotiate, dance to the music, negotiate!
Why?
Around here SRX's and STS's can be seen with $10,000 off sticker.
When I made that list, I placed them in the order I felt the "average American" might see them, not necessarily how I see them. Personally, I agree with mark about where the Cadillac badge would be. I don't agree with him though that Lexus and Infiniti are on the same level. I don't think that the Infiniti name carries any more weight than the Acura name does, Infiniti needs to build a Q that somebody will actually buy first.
As for what I would recommend to somebody looking for a car in the LPS class who likes to drive, "badge effect" wouldn't really matter. I have to say the M, either in V8 RWD form, or M35x form if AWD is a must have feature. The M is what I would buy for myself.
I'm not sure that I can come up with four more choices. I'm not really a fan of the S-type, GS, RL, or E. I guess I would pick the A6 as my "second choice". I can definitely see how the 5 would be perfect for certain people, but not for me.
Very bizzare as he usually has nothing but praise for Audi.
Since when? Clarkson usually hates Audis. He always bashes them for understeer, what he perceives as lifeless steering, and overly harsh rides. One of the only generally positive Audi reviews I've read of his recently is of the new Audi TT 2.0T, but only because its such an improvement over the last car, which he said was completely awful.
You could get XM as a dealer accessory ($278 MSRP, installation not included).
2007 M35 RWD (Journey + Tech): $46,400
2007 M35 AWD (Tech): $48,150
What's interesting is that the price of AWD has dropped from $2500 in 2006 to $1750 in 2007.
It could be that they are waiting for the M's mid-cycle refresh to introduce the more powerful engine, or perhaps they want to squeeze more power out of the VK45 first, so that the two of them would not be so close, at least in horsepower.
The present VQ engine is a known (thirsty but stone reliable) quantity. The new one is not.
That doesn't seem likely. Lexus is launching its brand new V8 in its most premier vehicle. I dont think the reason that Infiniti held back on giving the M the new engine for '07 is that they are worried its going to fall apart.
What I'm aware of (using the three terms above, which trichotomy I read somewhere) is (1) steering -- maybe a tad too easy (like old power steering on some American cars, but not that easier) or, to put it another way, not as tight as the Audi or the BMW 325i was driving; and, in terms of feedback to driver, not as much sense of feeling the road with my hands through the steering wheel, as with the A6. (2) Roadholding (grip between tires and road when cornering) seems great. No drift or feeling I'm losing control, driving and corners and highway curves just as I did with BMW. (3) Handling -- M35 settles right into comfortable and steady cornering, but it's a bit as if I'm watching it happen (a bit magical) and not feeling myself making it happen.
Seem familiar to any other M35 drivers of those test-driving the different cars in the LPS category?
Upe
I would probably agree that the M's steering is a little lighter than the Germans, but I don't think it gives away anything in terms of road feel to the Audi. Of course the BMW 5's (without AS) is the most telepathic of the bunch. The M is better than the GS300 and RL, and miles ahead of the GS430 in terms of road feel from the wheel.
Infiniti definitely has not cracked the magic BMW code yet, but considering the new M is 100,000% better than the old one, I don't think it will be long now. The new 5 is certainly not 100,000% better than the old one. I think that the '07 G35 is probably going to just slightly fall short of the 3 in terms of pure driving dynamics, but like the M, probably not enough to lose comparison tests to it. Should be very interesting.
That might be me. Automobile Journalists Association of Canada holds an event in which the journalists drive all the cars and rate them.
For “steering,” among “Luxury” cars they rated
Audi A6 7.8
BMW 5 Series Touring 8.3
Infiniti M45 Sport 8.1
Lexus GS 7.5
Lincoln Zephyr 6.9
Mercedes-Benz CLS-Class 8.1
Mercedes-Benz R-Class 7.4
And for “handling,” they rated:
Audi A6 7.8
BMW 5 Series Touring 8.0
Infiniti M45 Sport 8.2
Lexus GS 7.8
Lincoln Zephyr 7.5
Mercedes-Benz CLS-Class 7.7
Mercedes-Benz R-Class 6.3
I never drove the Infiniti Sport models, but having driven the BMW 3-series (which rated 8.3 on steering and 8.9 on handling), having test-driven the Audi A6 in all configurations, and now driving the M35, I was surprised that the Audi was so far away from the Infiniti and BMW. Maybe I’m viscerally remembering the S-Line which I drove last.
Also, not sure if BMW "Touring" and Infiniti M45 "Sport" is right two to compare or artificially inflates score of M, relative to BMW.
I cannot say it will be more nimble than a rear wheel drive 5 series with the sport package --but it will impress you if you have driven the 530xi and M35X.
Let me put it this way, the A6 needs the sport option, at the very least it needs the uprated wheel and tire option.
Of course, the BMW 530xi sport package does nothing to change the suspension -- only the Audi actually offers a real sport option. And, it shows.
The Audi A6 quattro with S Line is perhaps one of the best kept secrets in the LPS crowd. Now, don't get me wrong, I understand and appreciate the the 5 series (when equipped with a stick shift AND the sport suspension) -- but the Audi A6 quattro SLine IS, almost literally, "on rails" and thus is unmatched especially once there is anything other than totally dry tarmac beneath your feet.
Of course if you live where the roads are never anything but dry and straight, you can settle for one of the lesser LPS cars.
Like the M35X which, at least, comes close.
Of course if you opt for the 530xi with the 18" wheels AND the stick shift, well -- its bye bye Audi (if you asked me, which you probably didn't.)
Since most of "us" go shiftless, going A6 is pretty much a no brainer, especially NOW -- "for the money."
I'm planning on driving a 530 xi stick shift soon (a long long test drive) -- I hope it doesn't make the next 20 months a drag.
Wouldn't have one without the stick as long as the A6 w/Sline is on the market.
Wouldn't get any one of these BUT the stick 5, if I could make the decision TODAY, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__HpspsvRVg&search=Top%20Gear%20BMW
I would say the M45 has better brakes than the 545, however.
I found it interesting or should I say inept to test a BMW wagon against an M45 Sport sedan for handling and the BMW almost won anyway!
The Total Quality Index score is calculated using multivariate statistical techniques that measure the correlations of all aspects of the vehicle ownership experience including product, reliability and dealership (independent variables) against multiple outcome measures (dependent variables) which include the following:
-Satisfaction with the complete ownership experience
-Perception of quality
-Owner reported delight
-Future purchase intent
-Emotional attachment to vehicle
The correlations derived from this complex procedure are transformed into a 1000 point scale to facilitate comparisons. The scores typically range from 750 to 900. Generally, scores over 800 are terrific, although in some segments a score in the low 800's is not very competitive.
Infiniti M35/M45 - 908
BMW 5-series - 904
Audi A6 - 893
Which ones put most and least noise into cabin?
CR had Audi and Merceedes excellent on noise. M35, good on noise rating.
Anyone know if any of the published comparison tests measure decibels in cabin while test-driving?
Mark ... having just finished two months of test-driving most of the cars covered in this forum (lexus, audi, mb, infiniti), I couldn't agree more. If I could llive several parallel lives and had to predict which, of the cars I drove, would create, for the most consecutive days, an extra ounce of energizing excitement when I was on my way out to drive it in the morning, it would definitely be the A6 S-line I drove. I can't actually give a totally convincing explanation to myself as to why, in the end, I chose the M35, fear some days it was getting caught up in excitement of new model and what Nissan appears to be trying to do (I can root for car companies, as if they were sports teams), and half-unconscious swaying by expectation that Japanese car would not trouble me (I hate hearing myself put it that way) despite two friends (who have owned a combined total of 5 Audi A6s over last decdae) repeating that none of the cars, especially the two 2005s have been back to dealer for no more than a couple minor fixes each.
M45
Idle: 45 dBA
Full-throttle acceleration: 75 dBA
70-mph cruising: 67 dBA
Audi A6 4.2
Idle: 43 dBA
Full-throttle acceleration: 72 dBA
70-mph: cruising 68 dBA
===================================================
ANOTHER SET OF NUMBERS FROM A CAR AND DRIVER COMPARISON TEST
M45 Sport
Idle: 50 dBA
Full-throttle acceleration: 74 dBA
70-mph cruising: 67 dBA
--------------------
Audi A6 4.2
Idle: 45 dBA
Full-throttle acceleration: 76 dBA
70-mph cruising: 68 dBA
------------------------
BMW 530
Idle: 45 dBA
Full-throttle acceleration: 74 dBA
70-mph cruising: 64 dBA
----------------------------------
Lexus GS 430
Idle: 38 dBA
Full-throttle acceleration: 69 dBA
70-mph cruising: 63 dBA
No one expects major changes when a car has only been around for a year. I dont think Nissan has a 6-speed auto, but I'd rather have their rev-matching 5-speed tiptronic than many of the 6-speeds out there. Infiniti originally said there wasnt enough space for the V8 and the AWD gear, so I wouldn't expect an M45x any time soon.
I wish the people in the marketing group would have thought about spending a little money and had given the A6 a little more air time when it first came out. I don't think anyone knew that a new A6 model was even out there.
Without driving them (but having read numerous reviews and road tests), I would pick the M35 hands down. Nicely loaded, great seats, roomy, looks sharp, and supposed to be the "sportiest" to drive.
The Caddy was quite large, but the seats were too confining, and the interior just didn't work for me. Should be a bit cheaper though.
The RL seemed overpriced. Maybe because the interior looked and felt too much like my Accord. Just didn't seem like a 50K car, but there certainly were a lot of gadgets.
THe GS looks nice, and has a stylish interior, but I was way short of headroom. THe back seat I expected (it was marginal at best), but my head was up against the roof in the front too. I had to recline the seat way more than I wanted to just to fit, and even then it wasn't comfortable. Just seemed like it was designed for buyers no more than 5' 8"!
One problem with all these seems to be the trunk. I couldn't figure out how to open the trunk on the STS, but the other three (particularly the GS) didn't seem that big, and since the rear seats don't fold down, you are a bit limited if yo ucarry a lot of junk, such as on a vacation to the beach. The M's trunk did seem to be the boxiest.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The M is definitely my favorite of the bunch. That said, you definitely won't have to pay $50K for the RL. The dealers are giving them away at maybe $44K, just to get them off of the lot. Even still, the M is so much better, it's worth the extra money.
Yes, it is supposed to be.
These cars have many similarities, indeed depending upon their equipment levels even the Cadillac STS can be made to "feel" more competent than the BMW. The pecking order can be altered that is.
Price is an important factor when the cars are as close as these cars are to each other, especially at 9/10ths and under. The RL at $10,000 "lower" than the BMW or Audi, for instance, might be a better choice.
The M35X with its excellent suspension and 18" wheels and sticky tires (but all seasons, typically) is near the top of this class.
But a test drive will refine the word supposed to be the sportiest to drive.
Again depending upon equipment levels, the STS may totally take you by surprise, especially if it is equipped with the sport bits and magna ride.
Likewise the BMW at its base level and skinny 17" all seasons with an automatic is underwhelming.
The BMW with a 6speed manual and a couple of option boxes checked remains, IMHO, undefeated. Follow that selection with the 6spd auto-only equipped A6 SLine, then the M nipping at both of their wheels, so to speak, brings up third.
Argue, contradict and gimmie an "OH YEA?!?" -- after you have driven the Bimmer 530xi with a stick shift and 18" wheels and tires, the Sline A6 with the 19" wheels and tires (or even the 18's if that is all you can find to test) and the M35X with journey and technology packages.
Take them on the exact same test loop, take them each at least two times in a row on this loop, take them back to back if logistics permit a same day test.
If you then find the M is your "hands down" pick -- welcome to the club.
My guess is you'll pick the one that you like the looks of the most that has a price that is within your threshold of pain. :surprise:
That is, you will be in a very rare club if you actually do buy the car that performs the best -- by what are often considered "performance" criteria by the folks who do this for a living at Automobile, Car and Driver and Road and Track, etc etc etc.
Listen, I have the Audi, "I shoulda got a BMW!" My only excuse was there was no stick shift AWD BMW in June 2005, so I went with the less expensive M35X until Audi made me a "deal I couldn't refuse" on the number 2 performer.
Of course most all of this is really subjective, no kidding.