Luxury Performance Sedans

markcincinnati · July 2006

Relax. . .nothing we say, certainly nothing I say is any cause for defensiveness.

"Oh yeah?"

"Yeah!"

pearl · July 2006

While this issue has been beaten to death on this forum, it is worth noting that (apparently) the 07 M will NOT get the newly revised VQ engine. It seems that the "80% new" VQ will only go to the new G, where it is claimed that both power and efficiency will be improved. If so, and if Nissan has done nothing in the current climate (actually going back almost a year) to improve at least the cruising MPG of the M, shame on them, and they will likely take a hit on sales as a result. The new GS350 is likely to be a 20/28 MPG/EPA car vs. the 18/25 of the M, with the real results probably another MPG or two in the GS's favor. Maybe the new VQ would have helped this situation?? Many people on this board have discussed this subject and believe that Nissan could have, a) put a six speed auto in with a higher OD top end to improve cruising MPG; or, b) at least changed the gear ratio in the existing five speed to accomplish some of the same. Not apparent that this happened. If not, too bad. M sales are slipping already and if the 07's don't offer some improvements, particularly in MPG, then expect the sales to slip further. While these are luxo/performance cars, other than the ultra top end machines, no one can totally ignore MPG these days.

lexusguy · July 2006

Relax. . .nothing we say, certainly nothing I say is any cause for defensiveness.

I wasn't being defensive, just making an observation. In the LPS class, I'm sure there are many sales that go to team Japan that may otherwise have gone to team Germany had the buyers been able to afford the extra monthly payment. In the midsize and fullsize classes, the Germans are usually more expensive, often substantially so at the LS vs. S level.

My point was there are cases where the German badge is similarly priced or even more affordable, (Audi A3, for example) and yet there are still plenty of buyers going to Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus.

hpowders · July 2006

BMW 545 V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA.

Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA.

rich545 · July 2006

So much for the M being the 5 Series killer huh? 5 Series sales continue to soar while M sales are sliding in what, its second year? I'm sure the M did accomplish a fair number of conquest sales over the German competitors, but certainly in the case of the 5 it has been anything but a killer. I think there is more to it than MPG too. Most buyers that I know in this segment (myself included) don't worry too much about it (whether right or wrong).

markcincinnati · July 2006

Credence is further lent to the notion I overheard and presented a few posts back -- if you can't get a German car (for whatever reason), you may tend to "settle" on one of the American or Japanese "wannabee's."

Like I said, I am not totally convinced that is the entire story -- in my case, I just would not pay $829-ish for an Audi when the M was in the $6's. The moment Audi seemed to get it leasing program in line with its MSRP, well -- I came back to the Audi.

I guess, come to think of it, with 14 months of hindsight, perhaps I was one of those who was 'bout to settle on a Japanese LPS -- and I even flirted with getting an STS as a "settle" car when the Audi was "outrageously" priced.

The leasing deals on BMW's from what I can tell are still quite stimulative (at least here in Zinzinnati -- "vas you ever in Zin-zin atti? Ja?!?")

sfcharlie · July 2006

Yes, I believe the fantasy of M as BMW killer was an artifact of a few auto magazine and newspaper reviews. Often in comparative reviews, the cars are selected by price range. The BMW model used is always the lowest HP engine available and the review often says that the BMW would have finished first, if it had more power. So, when the lowest price in class M35/M45 appeared, it did "kill" (in the sense of accelerate much faster) the BMW.

So many of the articles, when about the new BMW engines, rave about the amazing combination of new (more powerful and refined technology) combined with better mpg. But the comparative reviews tend to give great weight to whichever car can accelerate fastest for the least money.

sfcharlie · July 2006

Where you live might make a difference in how excited you get about the prospect of an Audi "ownership experience." In my area, it's a VW-Audi dealership (in fact, many nearby are) and there is none of that "hey Joe, great to see you, how are the kids, join us at the Audi refreshment bar, etc -- more like "we can get you in for service in two weeks, unless the car has broken down on the side of the road). And the same dealer owns the BMW dealership down the road.

markcincinnati · July 2006

And hopefully posts like yours are read by Audi (and all the mfrg's, indeed) -- for it is places like this forum where opinions ARE formulated, purchase decisions swayed and attitudes shaped.

Edmunds in some respects may be a strong player in the perception is reality sweepstakes.

Now, we have two Audi dealerships in Cincinnati -- and I have only actually purchased from one of them, but I have shopped both.

I didn't buy from the other dealer for one reason -- they housed both Volvo and Audi sales in the same building and when I went to look at an Audi there, the sales staff (supposedly neutral) spent all their time telling us the advantages of Volvos (over Audis.)

Of course, these days, only the legacy dealers seem to be able to get away with such "dual dealerships."

Heck, my Audi dealership was "forever" an Audi Porsche outlet -- no more, nope -- neither Audi nor Porsche will stand for that on a forever ongoing basis these days.

It kinda makes sense -- one would perhaps have to compete for purchase dollars with the other one.

Of course the Cadillac dealer is also a Hummer dealer, maybe that gets a pass since they're both GM brands.

Anyway, if there is not a well educated, marketing aware/savvy, well-read and ear to the ground kind of person who is passionate about Audi's (employee of AoA) monitoring these posts, well -- sign me up.

Your post, were I Audi of America would be a call to arms to "fix" the situation.

As the phrase is so often defined: Audi means, "we listen," [sic].

Never Follow, indeed. :shades:

carnaught · July 2006

"BMW 545 V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA $60,000+

Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA" $47,000+

shipo · July 2006

To that I would add:

BMW 545i V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA $60,000+
Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA $47,000+
BMW 530i I6 manual 21/29 MPG/EPA $47,500+

Best Regards,
Shipo

carnaught · July 2006

BMW 545i V8 automatic 18/26 MPG/EPA $60,000+
Infiniti M 35 V6 automatic 18/25 MPG/EPA $47,000+
BMW 530i I6 manual 21/29 MPG/EPA $47,500+

Well, the 530i is more like $49,600+ but the manual is a different bird and with much less feaures for the 530i's almost base price, eh?

shipo · July 2006

Well, the 530i is more like $49,600+ but the manual is a different bird and with much less feaures for the 530i's almost base price, eh?

The base price of a 530i is in fact $47,500. Yes, no? Well, I suppose you could really call it $48,195 with shipping. Where does the $49,600 come from?

As far as features, yes, the base 530i does come with a few less goodies, however, it does come with one feature that isn't avalilble on the M at any price. Yup, you guessed it, the manual gearbox, an option that I would willingly pay thousands for. So, comparing a 530i manual with an M35 automatic as close as possible (i.e. both of them with "Sport" trim) to how I would configure them myself, the MSRP would be $55K for the 530i, and $51K for the M35. Of course I wouldn't even dream of buying a 530i for that price. Why? The European Delivery cost for that same $55K 530i is about $49K. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

markcincinnati · July 2006

I'm with you -- and the difficulty here when we're talking about MSRP has, apparently, little to do with the tco (for the record total cost of ownership for "X" time or miles.)

For reasons that have been hashed to death here, BMW appears to be in the car rental business.

That is, BMW seems to encourage renting their cars for 4 years or 50 thousand miles or some number of months and miles that will not exceed either 48 or 50,000 respectively.

While it IS accurate to state that the Infiniti M35X with Journey, Technology and the equivalent of the BMW 530xi sport package is somewhere between 3 and 5 thousand dollars less based on MSRP, here is what seems to happen:

The monthly price for the BMW on a per thousand MSRP basis is lower than the Infiniti. The BMW has free maintenance for the 50K term.

The BMW charges less for the stick shift than the auto and the stick isn't even offered on the M35X, at any price.

The BMW gets better MPG's and has, in most markets, more magnetism.

So, yeah, the BMW will be more money at pure MSRP, but equal to or less than the toc than the Infiniti AND can be had with a stick shift.

Game, set, match BMW.

Now to mess this nice neat little scenario up:

The Audi A6 3.2 Sline is -- of the three (Audi 3.2 SLine, BMW 530xi with the sport package [that offers literally NO sporting/performance or ground effects bits and even requires extra $ for the high perf wheels/tires] and the Infiniti M35X with ground effects and extra cost 19" wheels but no sport suspension, no 6 speed transmission of any shifting quality, etc.) -- is, if one must have the autotrans (95%) the sportiest and arguably most sure footed.

The SLine A6 3.2 (or 4.2 V8 if you feel the need for "more speed") is the only one of these cars that actually offers sport wheels/tires (in 18 or 19 inch diam), sport suspension and sport trim. The other cars, from BMW and Infiniti do not offer sport suspensions -- period.

One may certainly argue that the Audi needs the sport suspension the most of the three -- and there certainly is some evidence that says, "yup -- the Audi is NOSE heavy and it needs the uprated suspension and tires to counteract its native desire to understeer." Guilty as charged -- but I submit the Sline offering more than offsets most of the front end porkiness of the Audi.

BMW must be offering Audi a pass, this once, since they offer a stick shift in a well balanced but under tired and under suspended AWD sports sedan.

The BMW with the 18" upgraded wheels/tires in stick shift guise is probably THE choice of a driver wishing maximum control and high levels of performance.

But, their statistics must show that folks buying AWD BMW's are even less likely to order a stick shift than those buyers selecting normal 530is.

My BMW sales rep friends claim two things: they will NOT order a 5 series with a stick shift PERIOD (if it is for inventory); and, that every 530xi stick that is ordered and the buyer renegs, is immediately snatched up.

I ask the logical (to me) follow up question, "why if 5 series cars with stick shifts sell more rapidly than auto versions, (but apparently NOT rapidly enough to 'risk' buying even one per month for inventory purposes?) not order some small quantity for inventory purposes?!)

This at a dealer that sells 100 cars a month overall.

I'll either get a 5 (or maybe 3) AWD stick (and hope they will offer a true sport suspension) or an A6 or A5 SLine and hope they offer a stick shift or at the very least a DSG transmission.

I remain certain I would have been happy with the M35X that I "almost" bought, yet, today, somehow, someway, "nothing seems to satisfy quite like Beef."

(excuse me, like a German sedan.)

quemfala · July 2006

Am I missing something on this thread? Comparing a V-8 to a 6 cylinder?? Sorry, it's getting too confusing for me. 8's vs. 8's, 6's vs. 6's and $'s vs $'s. Now that's something to which I can relate.

shipo · July 2006

Mark,

As you well know, I'm effectively the "Loyal Opposition" when it comes to AWD, and as such I cannot see ever being in the market for an AWD car. ;-) That having been said, the A6 S-Line certainly narrows the gap between the A6 and the 5er when AWD is under consideration (as compared to a FWD A6 vs. a 530i SP with a stick). In the AWD scenario, the A6 should well have the advantage over even a "Tarted Up" eighteen inch wheeled 530xi (which cannot be had with a Sport Suspension). What these two come down to is better suspension for the A6 and a better transmission (i.e. one with three pedals) for the 530xi. That then leads to the "Tie-Breaker", which in my mind is the whole ED thing. Mrs. Shipo and I enjoyed our 530i ED experience SOOOOO much that we simply cannot wait to do it again.

Winner: the 530xi via a tie-break. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

james27 · July 2006

When I was looking for a new car last year, regardless of performance and features, the only one that I comfortably fit in was the Infinity M. The insistence that a car in this class requires a sunroof, usurping as much as nearly 3" of headroom just meant I needed the bigger car. People are getting taller and wider...cars need good headroom. It is also very perplexing that some of the huge things out there have the seat cushion so high that even with their huge size, they've got less headroom than many much smaller vehicles. Until the other companies see this as an issue, I refuse to buy one. My previous car was a 1998 Audi A6, special ordered without a sunroof. While you can order one now, most of the desireable options can only be had with a sunroof. This is true with most of the other brands, if offered at all.

lexusguy · July 2006

I believe Infiniti will be the first LPS to have all wheel drive on their V-8.

Not quite. The '00 Audi A6 4.2 came only with Quattro all wheel drive, and Mercedes also offered the E430 4Matic that same year. The STS also offered AWD with the V8 when it launched, and the Volvo S80 V8 AWD came out last year. Infiniti has beaten Lexus and BMW, and of course Acura who has no V8 at all, but they are far from the first.

carnaught · July 2006

Where does the $49,600 come from?

I configured the 530i with nothing but metallic paint and delivery to make it more comparable to the previous price comparison.

hpowder's post (#7715) showed what one can get (a BMW 545, an 8 cylinder) to better the mpg an M35 Infiniti (a 6 cylinder). Then when Shipo introduced a base manual 530i into the price discussion, it brought in two more variables, a manual transmission and a base car vs. better equiped cars.

Gentlemen, I'm not debating what car is better (BMW or M35), 6 vs.8 cylinders or auto vs. manual, but just pointing out that the 545's better gas mileage than an M35 comes at a sizeable price differential (my post #7723). Yes, one can cherry pick options and make my figures show an even greater or lesser price difference between the M35 and 545.

(My disclaimer: I have both an '06 M35 and BMW. :shades: )

markcincinnati · July 2006

Comparisons are apparently difficult to make for a variety of reasons:

MSRP, number of cylinders, monthly cost to lease, performance, content, etc.

It seems that one of the points was that the 6 cylinder Infiniti was similar in mileage to the 8 cylinder BMW.

The value or merits of this data are certainly partially due to the value you place on horsepower, torque, accelerative performance, mileage and of course price (and even that is based on if you pay cash or lease, for it may seem to be cheaper to buy the car in cash even if the Mothly Payments are lower for the lease [another subject].)

In any case, the data points seemed to me to tell a story -- a common sense story. And of course, common sense is ONLY common to ONE person, in this case, YOU.

Read it and define it as it is most appropriate to you, that is.

If, for instance, you were most interested in mileage + 0-60 times, you might feel the BMW was a better choice.

The apparent higher cost of the BMW may or may not be important depending on how you afforded this purchase.

carnaught · July 2006

If, for instance, you were most interested in mileage + 0-60 times, you might feel the BMW was a better choice.

The apparent higher cost of the BMW may or may not be important depending on how you afforded this purchase.

BMW's often with their higher prices represent also great value when their favorable leases are taken into account.

bread8 · July 2006

I just purchased an Infiniti g35 with 6-speed manual, aero pkg. and sunroof.I have driven the bimmer and M. The g35 is faster, racier and almost as roomy. True, there are no wooden surrounds, the stereo is not as good and perhaps the "class" factor isnt there. But, I will smoke both from a light and still get the same service that you do at the dealership for 10-20k less.

Frankly, I cannot afford a 530 an M or even a 330. But my G is alot of car and one of those rare rwd sport-sedans with a manual and almost 300 hp for under 35k.

sfcharlie · July 2006

I might be odd-person-out in this round of LPS discussion, but the BMW 530i was not a serious contender for my 2006 purchase. I loved both the 3-series and 5-series throughout the 1990s, but feel nothing when looking at or sitting in the new models.

Of course, that has nothing to do with anyone's buying decision, except mine.

If, however, I was buying a BMW, I (again, just me) would not go to Germany to pick it up. I believe earlier posts that suggest I could save $6,000 of MSRP. But, I could get something off MSRP right here at home, not use the money, time, or energy to fly to Germany and put myself up there. Plus, when I pick up a new car, I want to drive it home that day.

I don't think any sizeable proportion of BMW buyers would take the ED route, even if every BMW dealer carefully explained every advantage of doing so. Therefore, when I read exchanges here in which BMW ED leases are put forward as a heavily-weighted variable in the buy-BMW equation, it seems to me to be apples and oranges for the vast majority of LPS buyers.

kyfdx · July 2006

..for most people, ED is not realistic.... A great thing, if you have the desire and means to pull it off..

But, even at normal stateside pricing, you can usually lease a BMW for less than the competing models, even if the competitor's MSRP is lower... You don't have to do ED to come out ahead.... throw in the included maintenance, and the cost to drive a BMW is fairly reasonable on an "apples to apples" basis..

lexusguy · July 2006

I might be odd-person-out in this round of LPS discussion, but the BMW 530i was not a serious contender for my 2006 purchase. I loved both the 3-series and 5-series throughout the 1990s, but feel nothing when looking at or sitting in the new models.

I'm with you, at least in regards to the 5 series. It may be more efficient than the M, and it may outperform it. However, I still can't stand the looks, and I think the interior is probably worst in class, except for perhaps the STS. I'll take the M.

The new 3 is good, but it faces stiff competition from the next G35 and A4.

sfcharlie · July 2006

That tallies with my experience pricing BMWs.

I never found the cost of a BMW I was considering to be, in the end, a deterrent to buying or leasing it, when compared to 3-series or 5-series competitors I was considering alongside the comparable BMW.

On the other hand, I have not always found BMW to be the most appealing (cost aside) choice. Sometimes, the discussion can take an implicit turn and we're talking as if it's a foregone conclusion that everyone would choose a BMW 5-series model if they only understood that it's as affordable as other LPS cars with which it competes. By contrast, the greater "refinement" of new BMW models combined with their filling up twice as many parking spaces in my office garage as Audi or Infinity made Audi and Infinity more appealing to me (as the BMW 5-series began to occupy a different niche in my mind than it did in the 1990s, that is, the ultimate commuting machine).

merc1 · July 2006

When I posted those numbers I didn't really look at the YTD numbers. The RL is on track to sell about half of its 20K a year goal. Everything else they have is down for the year except the TSX. That RDX can't come soon enough. Funny thing is that in the Acura press release they say that gas prices are slowing sales, but they expect their new SUVs to do great.

The Jaguar S-Type which no one ever lists here anymore, has sold a whopping 3,627 units year to date, but it is their bestselling car. I imagine there are going to be some Jaguar dealer closings soon. The situation is more desperate than I thought.

M

merc1 · July 2006

5-Series sales are phenomenal (what accounts for that?).

Not sure, but Gary will tell you it is simply because it is the best car in the segment. I can't wait for the facelifted E to snatch this sales lead from the fiver.

M

jlbl · July 2006

(Please, let me know whether you are interested or not in data like the following for you to evaluate the interest of diesel LPS in the USA)

Speed control has been reinforced in Spain. As a consequence, my wife and I have got in recent times a couple of painful fines. So, in my last trip I have limited myself to legal speeds on highways (75 miles per hour, radars adjusted to flash at more than 82.85 mileshour). This is the consume report of that trip.

It was a 1,000 thousand-mile-long solitary ride and I had twice to go up and down from the see level to 5,000 feet.

(The trip, for the shake of those who know Spain, was Bilbao-Saragosse-Madrid-Albacete-Madrid-Burgos-Bilbao.)

Speed average along the 1,000 miles was 75.96 mileshour, with occasional

peaks of 87-up-to-93 mileshour.

With these restraints, consume was of 50.01 milesgallon.

It seems that the engine of my bimmer has easied itself after two and a half years of use and 40,000 miles of running!

Regards,

Jose

P.D. My bimmer is an E60 530d purchased in February 2004. That was 40,000 miles back. It cost  45,000 of that time. As I have posted here before, it is six cylinders, turbocharged, with 4 injections (1,600 bares each) per cylinder and cycle. It gets 218 hp at 4,000 rpm and 368.75 lbsfoot torque at 2,000 rpm. Acceleration is 7.1 sec 0-100 kmh (62.14 milesh). It weights 1,670 kg (734.82 lbs) with one 34-lb-passenger and 90% of tank capacity (European standards). The tank capacity is of 70 l (18.5 gallons).

hpowders · July 2006

I wss just showing that Infiniti has a long way to go in matching the efficiency of the BMW engines.
Both the M35 and 45 get rather poor mpg from their V6 and V8 respectively.
In this era of $3-plus gasoline, this is significant and may be an important factor in the slowing sales numbers.

markcincinnati · July 2006

After the Audi A8L 4.2 TDI video, where this huge car went 800 miles on one tank of diesel, I have been hoping to read real world accounts like yours.

I have, too, been hoping that we would see the mid-size 6 cylinder diesel powerplants become widely available in the US.

Right now we seem hell-bent to try going down the E85 highway -- and perhaps Mercedes (and Chryco) alone of the Germans will adress this (but, frankly, I am none too eager to see German FFV's based on the mileage and other cost factors associated with Ethanol.)

Thanks for the data.

The Audi A6 3.2 has a diesel twin, the 3.0TDI which improves upon the acceleration by .1 seconds and mileage by 20%. On European configurators, thus far, the Audi has been about $1,000 USD (approximately) less than the gas version.

I think it would be a brisk seller -- but I suspect that is, frankly, wishful thinking.

markcincinnati · July 2006

No doubt ED will appeal to a small % of buyers.

But, even though I have not purchased and taken delivery in Europe (Germany in particular), I have been to Germany about 25 times since 1993 and have rented Audis, BMW's and Mercedes (most recently an E Class diesel) and driven from Berlin to Munich to Garmisch to Fussen (sp?) and lots of these km's were on the autobahn and many of those were at double US legal speeds.

Driving around Munich, Baden-Baden, Garmisch and the Black Forest cities and towns is an exercise in travel that should be near the top of your "things to do" before you die list. Perhaps doing so at a discount due to the ED program could make this more attractive and certainly more affordable.

If you have never been to Germany, this IS a great way to see the country in 5 star fashion at perhaps a 2 star price. The German auto mfgrs seem, each, to have divisions whose responsibility it is to pick routes, hotels and restaurants of breathtaking beauty, comfort and flavor respectively.

It may be a minority of folks who will take this route to German car ownership -- but they will be rewarded.

I'll leave you with this -- when you begin the drive south out of Munich toward Fussen, you feel like a kid when he or she first lays eyes on Disneyworld.

There's nothing like this experience.

marleybarr · July 2006

What is the upper limit of speed you have driven on the Autobahn and how would you rate the quality of Autobahn construction compared to the average US freeway?

jobie · July 2006

I know you can count me as someone who will take a hard look at the '07 E350 instead of the 5-series. I never thought I would say this, having had a '99 3-series then an '02 530i manual (I'm currently doing the SUV thing, which I can't wait to get out of)- I thought I was firmly a BMW lifer, until the new 5 came out. IMO ugly inside and out, and 10% more expensive than my '02. I don't care how great a car drives, if it doesn't look good (and if I can't change the radio station with a single motion), I won't but it. I thought the old 5 series was about perfect - the drive, engine, styling...a real classic.

calhon · July 2006

I wss just showing that Infiniti has a long way to go in matching the efficiency of the BMW engines.

You haven't shown that, since the engines are attached to cars with significantly different weights. How do you disentangle the two?

A better, though still not exact, comparison would be with the RL:

M35X AWD - 18/25 mpg, 4043 lbs
RL - 18/26 mpg, 4012 lbs

Pretty close, and Honda is no slouch when it comes to engine efficiency.

low_ball_88 · July 2006

I think the new 5 looks good. JMHO. It has better styling that the previous version which to me looks like a shoe box. Also, other car manufacturers are copying the bangle design...go figure.

As for changing the radio. It is programmed on the steering wheel. Can't get more convenient than that. BTW, the new 5 is so smooth and quite that I feel that it is as luxo as Lexus.

markcincinnati · July 2006

I was able to show an indicated 220+ on one blast down the autobahn between Munich and Garmisch -- that comes out to 135MPH.

It is quite easy to drive between 190 and 200kph -- but the amazing thing is how you are always being passed even at speeds well above 160kph (about 100mph).

The thing is, too, it feels so much safer for a couple of reasons:

1 the condition of the autobahn is "perfect" -- no potholes, hell, barely any cracks or "expansion joints" the way we often have them.

2 the no passing on the right rule -- period, virtually no one EVER passes on the right, hence safety and speed can coexist peacefully.

The OHIO, KY, PA, IN, and WV freeways are full of tire and wheel killer holes. This is simply not permitted in Germany.

The curves are sweeping, too, so that you come across a curve at 160kph that you do notice as a curve, but that you would almost miss noticing at 100kph (62mph.)

It is no wonder the Germans can build cars that seem completely unperturbed at 100 miles per hour.

I was in a mini-van (a VW, as I recall) in Luxembourg, between Luxembourg City and Trier Germany put putting along at about 165kph in complete comfort and with no sense of drama and not much sense of speed.

The lane discipline and the population's willingness to adhere to it are, to a US driver, virtually a mind altering experience. Certainly an attitude adjustment accompanies the experience of ultra high speed and fantastic road manners.

I am certain there must be road rage -- but with as many trips as I have made to Europe (Germany in particular), I have not once seen it.

I also notice how folks don't seem to have dull, rusty or fender "bendered" cars as they seem to do here, especially in the larger US cities.

In Munich, the taxis are so clean, as the saying goes, you could almost eat off them.

And even in the winter the cab's interiors show the effects of a certain "reverence" for other people's property.

Now, by the same token, when the walk don't walk traffic light says don't walk, people don't walk -- even if there is no visible traffic in either direction.

Now, I don't know THAT much about the German form of government or laws, but Germany feels "familiar" to Americans. It doesn't feel like a land that is strict and oppressive, but people seem to be polite, helpful (even when they claim they only speak "a little bit" of English) and they obey the rules.

Yet, they have wild times during Oktoberfest at their clubs and concerts and they are hardly a stuffed shirt people.

Anyway, the autobahns are as I recall the Skyline Drive here in the US -- clean, wide, unaffected by road blemishes and full of VERY fast drivers who obey the notion, "Left side = passing side . . . Right side = suicide."

I wish we had an American Autobahn -- but my guess is that would mean we might use even more fuel -- at those speeds.

On the other hand, perhaps not, since there is much less of a tendency to stop and start and be all over the board.

Yes, you might find your small A3 4 cylinder cruising along at 120 MPH, but it probably will go further on a tankful than here simply because our driving habits are so haphazard and, frankly, discourteous and downright dangerous by comparison.

You may argue they have less freedom, but I certainly envy the freedom to get in the car and go with much less effort required to drive safely and rapidly.

Hope this gives you an idea of what you might expect.

Oh, BTW, I rented cars from one of the big three American companies and picked them up at the train station in Munich as easy as cake, a real piece of pie.

I even did a one way rental and dropped my rental off in Austria and took the train the rest of the way to Italy.

lexusguy · July 2006

M35X AWD - 18/25 mpg, 4043 lbs
RL - 18/26 mpg, 4012 lbs

Pretty close, and Honda is no slouch when it comes to engine efficiency.

I mentioned that before. The RL is also stuck with a 5-speed auto. However, nobody has mentioned that the '06 E350, which clocks in at just 3703lbs. and has a 7-speed ultra-hightech gearbox, is rated a worse than M35 18\24.

The E320 with the 5-speed was rated 19\27. What happened?

dewey · July 2006

I can't wait for the facelifted E to snatch this sales lead from the fiver

Wishful thinking Merc. Wishful thinking, indeed!

Our 2006 E Class vs. 5 Serie sales bet is still binding.(refer to post 7096)

link title

The only reason I returned from lurk mode is because I hate walking away from a bet in which the odds are 100 percent in my favor.

So I will be back by Jan 2007 to remind you of my victory :shades:

P.S. I love driving my new 530XI Touring. But I may be quite tempted in trading it in for an upcoming BMW M3 Touring(assuming it will be introduced in North America, though it will likely be introduced in Europe)

qbrozen · July 2006

I wish we had an American Autobahn

It won't work here until people learn to "stay right, pass left" like those on the autobahn do, as you pointed out. Its amazing to me how many folks hang out in the left lane, even when there are no other cars around them. As a result, I frequently must pass on the right.

calhon · July 2006

18/24 mpg is for the 4Matic (AWD) version of the E350, which comes with a 5-speed. The RWD 7-speed version gets 19/27. (All numbers from the EPA website).

My guess is that 3703 lbs is the base weight for the model, and the 4Matic version is significantly heavier.

tenbmw · July 2006

New to this board but wanted to put in my 2 cents. I agree with everything said about the German autobahn. Spent 2 weeks last summer along the Rhine, Munich and southern Germany with the family. Must be where I got my need to own a LPS. Roads are in pristine condition. However, we found that almost every road had some sections under repair (duh, that's how they keep them nice)so we had many traffic jams. Only used left lane to pass and with a 4 cyl rental loaded with 4 people had to give myself lots of time to get past trucks, etc. Weird thing for me was getting used to cars coming up fast out of nowhere in the left lane no matter how fast I was trying to go before cutting back to the right. Got so I was checking the rearview every few seconds.

Picked up my 2007 550i June 16th. No tickets yet, but expect 1 soon. Wish I could take it back to Germany for some fun!

pearl · July 2006

Mark, having spent many hours driving on roads all over Europe and the U.S. I would second your comments re German Autobahns. I think one factor in the "good behavior" of German drivers is that they are actually taught to drive that way, and taught that to do otherwise is wrong and discourteous. In the States, no one gives a flip about tooling along at 50 in the left lane (65Mph limit), yakking on their cell phone completely distracted, throwing things out the window, NEVER using a turn signal, and on and on. In a gross generalization, Americans (of whom I am one) are terrible drivers and among the most inconsiderate on the planet. Since the police rarely enforce anything but speeding, it is no wonder that people feel they can do as they want behind the wheel.

pat · July 2006

Dewey! Glad you haven't gone too far.

dewey · July 2006

Thanks.

Not far but close enough. Now back to lurk mode

upuaut · July 2006

I am surfacing from lurker mode here to respond to this message, and to address the A8L diesel 40MPG cross UK run on Top Gear Mark refers to. We need to keep in mind that the 40 MPG achieved in the A8L is imperial gallons, so we need to take 20% off to allow for smaller US gallons, works out to 33.3 MPG US. I think Jose is also talking imperial gallons, 50 MPG is great mileage, but in US gallons it is 41.7 MPG, still very good for a car the size of a 5 series. Keep in mind any MPG figures quoted by a Canadian (like me) or Brit, and probably I think other Europeans will be the big Imperial gallons, and Americans will be talking about, well, American gallons.

dewey · July 2006

For all you Audi fans with musical aspirations, I have a site for you:

http://www.audi.de/audi/de/de2/erlebniswelt/unterhaltung/audi_tracks.html

Personally I prefer the cars more than those techno-funk noises. IMO J.S. Bach's concertos are more representative of Audi's product line.

markcincinnati · July 2006

I certainly did not mean to mislead. The entire 14 minute video is still available and it is quite revealing.

This is a V8 4.2L TDI A8L with weapons grade torque, impressive performance in a VERY LARGE (and mostly aluminum) AWD luxed out car, driven on the highways out of London, out 400 MILES (yes MILES, not kilometers) and back 400 miles on one tank of diesel.

The host claims the tank holds about twenty gallons (Imperial gallons one can presume) and makes the entire trip on one tankful.

Now, I do NOT personally know if Audi's A8L has a larger tank for the UK, but the host clearly states forty miles per gallon and even if they are Imperial gallons, the feat is impressive.

Take the smaller displacement 3.0TDI offered by both Audi and BMW and place it in the smaller A6 or 5 series cars and, if my A6 3.2 is any indication, the US MPG should be 36 on fuel that costs less than the premium gas the 3.2 gas version requires.

I do not want this to be misleading, but something to make us 'mericans wonder if we will get these wonderful engines, with their improved performance and improved efficiency here.

On the UK Audi website the A6 3.0TDI has better performance and better miles per gallon and costs about 900 Euros less than the 3.2.

The word, too, is that the diesels are more durable than the gasoline engines.

Add to this that they are said to be 20% lower in greenhouse emissions and that if market penetration in the US would reach 25%, we would eliminate our need for Middle Eastern oil (1.4m bbl per day.)

Of course the odds are against any significant adoption of diesel, for its history lingers (smelly, noisy, sluggish, dirty and difficult to fuel.)

The current Audi, BMW and Mercedes diesels seem to accomplish the goals of decreasing our need for imported oil, decreases pollution, increases miles per tankful AND the big one "makes the cars they are placed in perform better" :surprise: due in large measure to the crow-bar twisting torque that is on hand at very low rpm's.

Too bad, for "what is NOT to like?"

dewey · July 2006

Whoever said the Audi R10 TDI is fast?

http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=14844

dewey · July 2006

Imagine having your Porsche serviced by this dealer.
Quite an amusing story (unless you happen to be the unfortunate Porsche owner)

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