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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    "But, when it comes down to it, the BMW is what gets me excited. And that should count for a lot."

    Based on my recent experience, it should be the deciding variable in the equation. In the weeks and months after you've brought the car home, the memory of the one about which you were most excited will not easily fade. I'd say your excitement is making the decision for you. And you can likely lease the BMW for as good (if not better terms) than with the M35, if you're leasing; or, if you're buying, and if you're hesitating because the BMW costs more, check things on the BMW leasing and prices paid forums. People there can often point you toward possibilties you might not have known.
  • breldbreld Member Posts: 6,698
    A month or so ago, I went to the Infiniti dealer to take another look at the M35x. I take a walk around it, checking out all the angles, and the style and other features start to grow on me. Now, on their used car lot, they happen to have a recent model 530i, and when I see that, it's just an instant gut feel - it just seems to click with me. If it would've been an xi model, I would've been tempted to start talking numbers right away.

    So, yeah, to your point, I look back on that visceral feeling I had that day and often think, perhaps it should be as simple as that. What gets your blood pumping? Particularly when you get to the choices in this class, where, to be cliche, there probably are no real "losers."

    And regarding the pricing difference between the M and 5, I'm more than happy to go with a lightly used, perhaps certified, 530xi. And that's half the reason I'm waiting several months - not too many of those out there yet.

    2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2024 Corvette - 2024 BMW X5 - 2023 Tesla Model Y

  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    So, yeah, to your point, I look back on that visceral feeling I had that day and often think, perhaps it should be as simple as that. What gets your blood pumping? Particularly when you get to the choices in this class, where, to be cliche, there probably are no real "losers."

    I agree that there are no bad cars among those being discussed on this forum. There are aesthetic differences, which matter to different degrees to each of us. It might be "shallow" on my part, but it actually enhances my sense of enjoyment of my car if, when I see the same model go by on the street or highway, I think "boy, that is a great looking car." I'm surprised, after the fact, that I took one home about which I really didn't feel that way. If I had bought it instead of leased it, the lack of excitement about how it looks when I am walking toward it, how it feels when I'm sitting in, and the subtle differences in my experience of the drive train and chassis charactersitics would all be leading me to see what I could get by selling it and just moving on.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    "the way a lot of people talk (or post) about cars leads me to believe that the joy of driving, or finding new places, or trying a treasured remote road with a new vehicle, is absent."

    I like this post. I have a friend whose finances have allowed him to (simultaneously) own several highly desirable cars (Porsche, BMW M5, and MB). He routinely goes for a two day drive out of town and into the backroads. It's akin to a spiritual activity for him. Acquiring a new car clearly is done with future versions of these drives in mind.

    I've noticed that, when I've had a car with which I was "in love" I do what you're saying is too absent in these exchanges -- take it out "on dates" or "away for the weekend" and, if I'm talking about where I've been, I'll include some description of the car as a contributor to, along with my wife and I, the pleasures of the event.

    One of the clues I had to my (absurd, regrettable, pathetic, etc) having drifted into taking home a car I don't love in that way, is that any mention of the car is limited to voicing one side or another of my ambivalence about it.
  • dzubadzuba Member Posts: 159
    Have not visited here lately and can't believe one of the first threads I read is from Shipo - wow. We spoke about three years ago when I bought my 02 CPO - LOL.

    Anyways, I now have 75K on my 02 and am contemplating getting rid of it before:

    1. It gets to 100K miles and the value really drops
    2. I have to deal with a new transmission at about 100K miles. Never had a problem with the car yet, and I am a novice here with this question - but how long do these transmissions last considering they are well taken care of.
    3. Does CPO cover a new tranny should it go before 100K miles?

    Thanks
  • curtisbcurtisb Member Posts: 1
    Japanese vehicles are "good cars".

    European vehicles are "driving machines"!

    I prefer to enjoy and yes, dare I say LOVE driving my 328ci anyday of the week over my Nissan Maxima, which is still a "good car".

    I am currently looking at and comparing vehicles in the bracket of BMW's 540i (2003 model year) and thus far have yet to find something even remotely enjoyable or as valued as the BMW. Nothing really even comes close.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Japanese vehicles are "good cars".

    European vehicles are "driving machines"!


    Again, over generalizing. The Japanese and Europeans can both make driving machines, they just have different ideas as to what a driving machine is. Of course a Nissan Maxima (which used to have a beam axle in back for "extra rear seat room") is no match for a 328ci.

    Japan's "ultimate driving machines" are more akin to a Porsche GT3 RS than anything BMW makes. They dont waste any weight on wood and leather. Generally, they also have never been sold in the US.

    Japan's highest performance cars that are currently in production are the Lancer Evo MR FQ400, and the WRX STi Spec. C WR. 0-60 takes place in about 4 seconds, and only the fastest Porsches would be able to catch them on a track. The M3 or M5 wouldn't have a chance.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I understand where you're coming from here, but those cars aren't always available here and they aren't luxury cars they're pretty much boy-racers (compared to a Porsche or BMW) which is why most folks don't think of them with they generalize about Japanese cars. A M3 or M5 are far more sophisticated and Japan doesn't have anything in the luxury ranks to tackle a AMG/M/RS type vehicle form MB/BMW/Audi. That and the fact the Europeans make for more driving machines across a much broader market only enhance the perception the above poster has, IMO.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I understand where you're coming from here, but those cars aren't always available here and they aren't luxury cars they're pretty much boy-racers (compared to a Porsche or BMW) which is why most folks don't think of them with they generalize about Japanese cars. A M3 or M5 are far more sophisticated and Japan doesn't have anything in the luxury ranks to tackle a AMG/M/RS type vehicle form MB/BMW/Audi.

    True, just making a point that Japan can make world-beating UHP cars if they want to. At the same time, recent efforts from Mazda and Nissan like the MS6 and Infiniti M show that they can do Euro style, "mature" performance cars as well. I'd very much like to see Infiniti adopt an AMG style performance arm. Surely if Cadillac can do it, they can.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well you know don't have to sell me on Infiniti, they're my favorite of the big 3 Japanese luxury brands by far.

    I think what you said earlier about where the car originate from and the priorities that shape them on their homeland have a great deal to do with who make what. Brilliant point.

    Nissan and Mazda while credible, don't really apply here though.

    Cadillac doing a performance arm is really something, but as of late they seem to be taking one loss after another. They have the power, but not the refinement or polish to make any real waves in the AMG/M/RS world it seems.

    M
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Thanks for the synposis. I agree with you regarding this remarkable experience. I participated in the 2005 Seefeld Audi Driving Experience and it was everything and more as you described. Next: Barcelona or Finland Audi Driving Experiences with the Barcelona with RS4s.
  • breldbreld Member Posts: 6,698
    So, after all this talk of European vs. Japanese, my own experiences comparing the M35 vs. 530, and in particular, the emotional side of the car decision, I may just have found my car today.

    I browse Autotrader daily, getting a feel for the market for 530xi's, on a national basis. Figure I'd do something early next year, when there's more of a used market for them. There's been several interesting listings, but always out-of-state, which isn't unthinkable by any means, but it was enough to keep me at bay.

    Well, today a listing pops up at a local dealership - 2006 530xiT, 6,500 miles, CPO, and here's the kicker - manual trannie.

    Now, I've been a pretty die-hard stick shift guy, but over the last several months, as I started looking at this LPS class, I found myself accepting, and more recently, even embracing, the idea of getting an automatic. Part of it was indeed liking the idea of perhaps a more "relaxed" driving experience for the daily commute, and part of it was simply out of necessity - other than the BMW, there is no choice in this class. And considering I resolved myself to the used market for a 530 (for price reasons), I figured chances of finding a manual were pretty slim anyhow.

    Then I saw this listing, and it definitely gets my juices flowing. I'm the responsible father dropping off my two boys at daycare in the family truckster, and then continue on my way to work in my 6-speed manual sports wagon! :)

    Well, I'll probably take a look at it tomorrow. I could see myself going ahead with it if the numbers work out, but I could just as easily see myself holding off until next year. I kind of enjoy the process - weighing the pros and cons of the different choices, doing the research, the "hunt" for that gem in the used market. Kinda crazy, huh?

    2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2024 Corvette - 2024 BMW X5 - 2023 Tesla Model Y

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Cadillac doing a performance arm is really something, but as of late they seem to be taking one loss after another. They have the power, but not the refinement or polish to make any real waves in the AMG/M/RS world it seems.

    Very true. The XLR-V came in dead last in C&D, and this line "A good choice if you must be seen in a domestic vehicle." was the clincher. For $100K, they have to do better than "not bad...for Detroit". Still, at least they're trying.

    Japan has a very long history of not even bothering to send their hot cars to the states, partly because of things like emissions, but I think mostly due to them being timid about whether or not they'll sell any here. Once in a blue moon Honda will send a "Type R" our way, but 9 times out of 10 they are only for the Europe and Japan markets, and we get some sort of watered down version instead.

    We only get the basic level of the Evo and WRX, and an even more basic Legacy Spec.B.

    It will be interesting to see what Nissan, Honda, and Toyota can do with their new supercars. We've got the Ford GT, Germany has the Carrera GT and the SLR, Italy has well, boatloads of supercars, but Japan's currently got nothing.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I kind of enjoy the process - weighing the pros and cons of the different choices, doing the research, the "hunt" for that gem in the used market. Kinda crazy, huh?

    Not a bit. I've been doing the very same thing with used Jag convertibles for years.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Very true. The XLR-V came in dead last in C&D, and this line "A good choice if you must be seen in a domestic vehicle." was the clincher. For $100K, they have to do better than "not bad...for Detroit". Still, at least they're trying.

    Yep, but oh wait it gets worse. The SL550 just beat the XLR-V in a head to head in the Sept issue of Motor Trend. What I find interesting is that the XLR-V's performance is only a few tenths of a second better here and there compared to the SL550. It doesn't stand a chance against the SL55 AMG. However I also give them credit for trying, there is nothing like the XLR from an American brand so I guess that has to count for something.

    Honda really should send us that really hot version of the Civic hatchback, I think it would sell on looks alone.

    What I'd most like to see is a 350Z killer from Toyota priced at the same level.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Euro Civic does look a lot better than ours, but its an entirely different model, so there's unfortunately no chance of us getting it.

    A Z killer from Toyota would be nice, but supposedly the Supra is going to price like the GT-R, rather than the Z. A Mazdaspeed RX-8 would be a good alternative to the Z however, as would a new S2000, if Honda ever gets around to it.

    image
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    It seems to me that in press releases, in ads, and (to a lesser degree) in what emphasis auto mags put on each brand, you get a sense of what niche (in the collective consciousness of consumers) the company is most interested in capturing.

    Infiniti's ads are heavily weighted toward "design" and one press release says unambiguously: we want to be the design leader. I think you have to like "a lot of design" to love look and feel of M35/M45.

    BMW appears targeted at "best engines in the world" and car mags pick that up -- the only full length articles on a brand's new engines, that I can recall, were on the engines in the new 3-series, when that line hit the market.

    I googled "Audi A6 V6 S-Line" and the first hit, from the UK press, read: "Audi's A6 is a highly evolved motorcar and their 3.2-Litre V6 FSI is a highly advanced engine. They make a good pair. Audi make great play of the advanced technology that they manage to pack into their products and well they might. Take the A6 3.2-litre FSI we feature here with its Fuel Stratified Injection engine, adaptive air suspension, the option of front-wheel or quattro four-wheel drive and the choice of three different gearboxes. That's before we even get into the options list where wonders like in-car televisions, voice command systems and distance-sensing cruise control reside."
  • purplem46purplem46 Member Posts: 54
    A M3 or M5 are far more sophisticated and Japan doesn't have anything in the luxury ranks to tackle a AMG/M/RS type vehicle form MB/BMW/Audi.

    True enough, but in 2008 I think the Japanese are ready to play their trump card. Everything I've heard about the anticipated Skyline GTR (Nissan Badge), would seem to put them square in the M division/ AMG ranks.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    BMW appears targeted at "best engines in the world" and car mags pick that up -- the only full length articles on a brand's new engines, that I can recall, were on the engines in the new 3-series, when that line hit the market.

    I do remember full length articles on Audi's DSG, though. BMW may have the best engines, but their SMG is no match for Audi's.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    I do remember full length articles on Audi's DSG, though. BMW may have the best engines, but their SMG is no match for Audi's."

    Exactly...German car reviews typically include discussions of the drivetrain and chassis, etc. Japanese car reviews more typically describe the pleasant (and sometimes exciting) experience, but, taking the M35 as example, looking over the reviews that got me excited about it, none go into any detail about new advances developed by Nissan in engine or transmission for this car. Nissan had a good engine/drivetrain (the V6 has been on Wards ten-best-engine list for years and the "rev-matching manu-matic" is good, for a 5-speed), but--my view now--a media-seducing vehicle was assembled by dropping an existing well-regarded (12-year-old engine) and an available transmission (geared to run like a 1960s muscle car and with about the same mpg) onto a modified 350Z->G35 chassis wrapped with a modified Maxima body, while all the left-over design and development money went into creating a swell living-room/command-post interior. A marketing marvel that seduced successfully; but it isn't BMW/Audi/MB 21st-century engineering.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Now, that’s what I’m talkin’ about! I very much enjoy hearing about this sort of stuff, but perhaps others don’t. If someone really carries on about a road they love, I’ll mark it in my atlas every time. It seems that I end up everywhere, sooner or later.

    My introduction to autobahn driving was five years ago, in an A3 (1.9Tdi), and of course it was a lasting impression -- got my Jones for an Audi started. Sadly, the cars I like best over there aren’t even available over here -- diesel/manual, preferably both. Here, outside of the A3/A4 which at least still have manuals, the options are: neither.

    On another trip to Germany, I took the weekend (& an A4 1.9Tdi this time) & had my first Swiss adventure. Opted to drive over the San Bernardino pass (rather than through the tunnel) and learned that even with decades of Colorado experience, there’s nothing quite like an Alpine pass for narrow roads without guardrails (& tour coaches); same for Gotthard, then the Furka pass -- lifelong ambition finally realized, once again in an Audi.

    I used to do business in Ohio (Springfield, near Dayton) & had weekends free to discover WV, PA & KY backroads, so have a pretty clear idea of your “local” environment, and a fine one for fun cars it is. I don’t see how someone who lives in Kansas or Oklahoma or any of the other states where 90% of the roads are straight & the highest altitude is the NW corner (based strictly on tilt), can ever understand 3-D driving & the passion some of us have for it. Unless I’m severely pressed for time, I ALWAYS avoid the interstates.

    Your Inglostadt tale combines another good “where I enjoyed driving” (or learned to better) with a (partial) explanation of how you have come to have 2 dozen or so Audis in your household over the past decades. Given that you’ve been there several times, it’s certainly understandable how the Audi has become a lifestyle. The only cars I drive in winter weather are rentals, so AWD holds no attraction to me, given what it does to the car’s balance. It sounds like appropriate manipulation of tire pressure can compensate, but there’s still the extra weight & complexity.

    Munich -- well, in a perfect world, that’s where I’ll be taking delivery of a BMW 3-series diesel in a couple of years for my ED holiday with my wife. Time will tell. The text of your post has been saved, in case all the stars align properly.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Nissan had a good engine/drivetrain (the V6 has been on Wards ten-best-engine list for years and the "rev-matching manu-matic" is good, for a 5-speed), but--my view now--a media-seducing vehicle was assembled by dropping an existing well-regarded (12-year-old engine) and an available transmission (geared to run like a 1960s muscle car and with about the same mpg) onto a modified 350Z->G35 chassis wrapped with a modified Maxima body, while all the left-over design and development money went into creating a swell living-room/command-post interior. A marketing marvel that seduced successfully; but it isn't BMW/Audi/MB 21st-century engineering.

    Infiniti deserves more credit than that. They greatly increased platform stiffness and rigidity for the "FM-L" platform under the M compared to the G35. The Infiniti could use more forward gears, I will give you that. However, the rev-matching feature is something thats not offered on most of the competition. The Sport versions of the M have "rear active steer", while the AWD versions have a very sophisticated, race proven AWD system capable of sending 100% of the power to the rear wheels. Most of the competition can't do that, either.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    . . .by dropping an existing well-regarded (12-year-old engine) and an available transmission (geared to run like a 1960s muscle car and with about the same mpg) onto a modified 350Z->G35 chassis wrapped with a modified Maxima body, while all the left-over design and development money went into creating a swell living-room/command-post interior. A marketing marvel that seduced successfully; but it isn't BMW/Audi/MB 21st-century engineering.

    Wow. I've never seen such a world-class, industrial-grade, water-cooled case of buyer's (or, more properly, lessor's) remorse played out so quickly. What a shame.

    I lost interest in the M when I learned that it didn't come with a manual. Of the handful (five) of new cars I've bought since '73, I was generally pleased with them all for at least the first few years, but the plethora of choices that are available these days certainly weren't a factor then, even as recently as 2000, when I was last in the market.

    Either way, I hope you can come to terms with your M, or come up with a way to unload it so you can indulge your passion for Audi.

    Good luck!
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    True enough, but in 2008 I think the Japanese are ready to play their trump card. Everything I've heard about the anticipated Skyline GTR (Nissan Badge), would seem to put them square in the M division/ AMG ranks.

    It might, but it will still be a "Nissan" and one car isn't going to trump the many AMG/M models or their hold on the luxury car buyers seeking performance. If anything the car should have been an Infiniti here in the U.S. if Nissan is serious about making Infiniti a true threat to BMW and their Motorsport division. A high-end Nissan is going to be percieved as a boy-racer to most, though a very competitive/impressive one.

    M
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    Either way, I hope you can come to terms with your M, or come up with a way to unload it so you can indulge your passion for Audi.

    At least he thinks it has a nice glovebox and cupholders and is mildly pleasurable.

    As far as having a 12-year old engine design goes, I think it speaks volumes for the engine that it is still on the 10 best list 12 years later. Alas, while the car can perform as well or better than any of its peers, the owner can't tell everyone that my car has the newest engine technology. Good reason to slink away in shame.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If anything the car should have been an Infiniti here in the U.S. if Nissan is serious about making Infiniti a true threat to BMW and their Motorsport division. A high-end Nissan is going to be percieved as a boy-racer to most, though a very competitive/impressive one.

    You're absolutely right on that one, deciding to put a Nissan badge on the car in the states could turn out to be a serious mistake. Infiniti dealers were fuming about it, because it could've been a proper flagship car for them, instead of the Q45 joke. I guess it depends on what kind of market they want to go after. If they want a piece of the Shelby Mustang\Corvette market, the Nissan badge is fine. There's a definite price cap on that market, however. Too much over $60K, and it just wont work.

    If they want a piece of the Porsche\M\AMG market though, a Nissan badge won't cut it.

    What I still think they should've done is use the GT-R to establish a tuning brand for Infiniti, just as the BMW M1 did for Motorsport. Infiniti GT-R "Z tune" to use a badge they've used in the past for the GT-R, and then a few years later, launch "Z tune" versions of the G, M, FX, etc.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Bringing this in as a Nissan. . . .

    Hmmm. . .

    Something makes me (word association) think Phaeton. . . .
  • jiaminjiamin Member Posts: 556
    "rear active steer". I clearly remember my 94 Altima has that feature, but on its window sticker it was called "super toe" or the like. I didn't feel anything different from cars without it. I am not a car expert, and don't change lanes suddenly. Probably that's why I couldn't tell if that's a practically useful thing.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The GT-R will will be a success independent of a Infiniti logo.

    With the exception of the dismay of Infiniti dealers I dont see a problem.

    Sport does not need to be intertwined with luxury. There is nothing wrong with a Honda logo on the more modest S2000. And there is nothing wrong with a Nissan logo on the not so modest GT-R. Otherwise a Chevrolet Corvette would have been discontinued many decades ago and be re-born as a Cadillac Corvette.

    The GT-R's success will be determined by its superlative performance and not its logo.
    The Phaeton is another story altogether. A Luxurious Phaeton needs to be backed up with a luxury logo.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Alas, while the car can perform as well or better than any of its peers, the owner can't tell everyone that my car has the newest engine technology. Good reason to slink away in shame.

    OK ... I was off on a hyperbolic tear ... your sensitivity has grounded me again, though.

    My point was not that I feel deprived of the opportunity to carry schematics of the engine and show them to people on the Amtrak to MIT. My point was that, whether you resonante with this or not, there is pleasure in the feel of certain engine/tranny combos. Sinply getting a dragster response is not the one that lights my fire. Also, the 12-year-oldness manifests itself not in owner's inability to have letters printed on car that read "latest technology; eat your heart out", but manifests itself in very high rpms being required to get to the engine's torque (you're at 3000 rpm crusing at 75 on the highway) which, in turn, means you're buying the kick-butt acceleration with 17 mpg for 275 HP, rather than having it built-in through contemporary engineering. There are 350 HP V8s that only gulp 17 mpg. And it's not the money. It's the overall sense of what (I realize as I drive the car) the drivetrain is doing with the gas to create the impressive dragstrip times.

    None of this, as has been said many times here, has any implication for anyone else for whom that car provides exactly what they love in a driving experience.

    I realize it's unusual for an owner of a car to be a negative voice about the car on one of these forums, but it's just a variation on people who have only test-driven a certain car and write volumes about how its soul compares to the soul of some other machine.

    On the M35 versus BMW 5-series forum, another voice popped up yesterday saying the same thing, just not going-off the way I did yesterday: "I went from a 2002 540 to an 06 M35x, and while the M is a very nice car, it doesn't come close the driving pleasure of the BMW. I will admit that perhaps I should have looked at the M45 sport, but unfortunately I didn't. I also got significantly better mileage with the V8 BMW than the V6 Infiniti. Oh well, it's only a 2 yr lease." And, no, I didn't pay someone to post that.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Dewey, I totally agree with you. Performance cars are judged on the performance GOODS, period.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    If someone really carries on about a road they love, I’ll mark it in my atlas every time. It seems that I end up everywhere, sooner or later.

    Cdnpinhead, have you heard of the Tail of the Dragon in Tennessee and North Carolina (mostly Tennessee)? If not, you might want to put it at the top of your list. I drool at the thought of driving this road.

    http://bridger.us/mini/files/R&T_June_2006%20_TOTD.pdf

    http://www.tailofthedragon.com/
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Dewey, I totally agree with you. Performance cars are judged on the performance GOODS, period.

    Perhaps. What would've happened if the NSX had been the Honda NSX here, as it is in the rest of the world? Would anyone in the US buy a $90K+ Honda? At around $30K, I think the S2000 could work with either a Honda or an Acura badge on it. Asking $65-75K though for a Nissan could be a mistake in the states. This is the most badge concious automarket in the world. The Infiniti badge was created just for us. The rest of the world is happy with Nissan Skylines and Fugas.

    On the other hand, Americans know the Skyline GT-R best from Gran Turismo, as a Nissan. That worked for the WRX and Evo, and it could also work for the new GT-R.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    There are issues with the analogy, I grant, but again I say the name "Phaeton."
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Actually, Audi's 2.0 4 and 4.2 8 won Ward's Best Automotive engines in its classes. So, to say BMW builds better engines is again more perception than reality as it the case with all of BMW.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Asking $65-75K though for a Nissan could be a mistake in the states.

    Really? Larger dealer network, greater exposure and more brand recognition.

    If the production GT-R lives up to its potential, and is TRULY awesome and inspiring, people will gladly accept and pay for it as a Nissan, IMO. I agree with Dewey and Designman on this one. It's more about the CAR.

    TagMan
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Actually, Audi's 2.0 4 and 4.2 8 won Ward's Best Automotive engines in its classes. So, to say BMW builds better engines is again more perception than reality as it the case with all of BMW.

    I agree. In fact, that was my point. BMW does a great job of promoting its engine developments, to the point where a couple of auto mags accompanied reviews of the new 3-series with extensive coverage of the new engines, to an extent I haven't seen them do with other (even) German engines. In general, German brands all put a lot of money into pushing for cutting-edge balance of power and efficiency. Wards said about the Audi V6: "Audi's engine wizards prove high performance doesn't have to come at the expense of reasonable fuel economy." And about the V8 (even before FSI was added) --my favorite engine, in terms of performance (especially performance points per gas dollar): This engine is a virtual dynamo. It's the smallest-displacement V-8 in what we broadly define as the "premium V-8 class" of less than 5L - yet it's the most powerful. Its deeper beauty is its game-stopping flexibility and throttle response, always ready to unleash a torrent of power from idle to redline.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Excellent!

    Thank you very much.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh I have no doubt the car will be a hit for Nissan as the Corvette is for Chevy, my point was that if Nissan is serious about sharpening Infiniti's image with luxury/performance car buyers then it should have an Infiniti here. I agree that the car will be a judged on what it can do and not the badge. How else would a mere "Chevy" be able to compete with cars that cost 3xs as much.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    if Nissan is serious about sharpening Infiniti's image with luxury/performance car buyers then it should have an Infiniti here.

    A boost, yes . . . but this isn't the real help that Infiniti needs, IMO. There are other issues. Heck, if badged as an infiniti, the GT-R would be great car, likely lost in the ambiguity of the Infiniti badge, and that would be another tragedy for another great car.

    Nissan needs to re-think the marketing of the Infinity badge, because the cars are MUCH better than their sales figures would suggest, IMO.

    This situation reminds me of Audi to an extent. Although I do believe that Audi is now on the right path, thank goodness. I still wonder about Infiniti.

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    True, I agree with what you're saying here. A GT-R isn't going to "fix" Infiniti. We were strictly talking about giving their image a boost like you stated.

    The problem I think with Infiniti is that they're pretty much all sedans and SUVs. The G35 being the sole exception. IMO to be what I call a full-service luxury brand/provider you need Coupes, Convertibles, Roadsters and some type of performance variants. I mean on paper Cadillac is a more a luxury brand than Infiniti is with their much broader range of products, but how many of us here would take a Cadillac over an Infiniti?

    The G35 has done a lot for them, but the car has a dated and imo cheap interior that just doesn't cut it anymore. It appears that the 07' G addresses this issue while improving upon the current car's strengths. I myself have always like the Coupe better, and for 08's it appears it will make the Merc1 lust list again.

    The M is selling as well as can be expected IMO since they're basically coming out of nowwhere in the market segment. For it to outsell the Lexus GS here and there some months is outstanding IMO. Sort of a M5/E63 fighter the M lineup is pretty solid, IMO. I guess they could throw in a M45x for the few sales it would net.

    The Q45 is where Infiniti starts to turn for the worse. This car has never been able to get out of the Lexus LS's shawdow and then they tried to market it as some type of full-size sports sedan when nothing couldn't have been further from the truth. The Q is the definition of a lame duck and its lineage pretty much sucks if you can remember the previous generation which actually was smaller, slower and worse looking then car it replaced. Brilliant move on their part if destroying a nameplate is the goal! I really don't know what suggest for them to do about the Q. I can't seen Nissan spending the money to make it a S-Class/LS type luxo-crusier and actually beating them at that. Forget about taking on the A8 and especially the 7-Series unless you're going to actually make the thing sporty.

    A convertible version of the next G35 Coupe would be nice as well as G45 version to tackle the M3. Heck make it both sedan and coupe form, BMW is going to do just that with the next M3. Infiniti needs something "special" like that or a GT-R based something.

    As far as their SUVs, the FX is all they have worthwhile, of course IMO. The FX's looks tickle me (in a good way) looking like something a gangster in a cartoon would drive, short, fat and stubby, but good looking if you can picture that. It really drive like a tall sports car too. The QX on the other hand is just another big ole truck truck wit a big ole grille, but the Cadillacs own that segment when it comes to "bling".

    Audi has a similar situation like you state, but ah Audi knows what they've go to do hence the RS4, S6, S8, and more importantly the upcoming A5 Coupe and R8, the latter of which will be totally unique among luxury car brands. No one else, not BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Acura (well after this year), not even Bentley or Aston-Martin has a mid-engined sports car in their lineup. I've long said this about Audi, that all sedans and wagons (they didn't have an SUV until now!) kept them from elevating their "status" or "image".

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The problem I think with Infiniti is that they're pretty much all sedans and SUVs. The G35 being the sole exception. IMO to be what I call a full-service luxury brand/provider you need Coupes, Convertibles, Roadsters and some type of performance variants. I mean on paper Cadillac is a more a luxury brand than Infiniti is with their much broader range of products, but how many of us here would take a Cadillac over an Infiniti?

    Good point. Acura is the same way at the moment. They'd rather just kill off their coupes than work to make them more competitive, leaving basically two Accords, an Accord Euro, an Accord wagon, and a CR-V. Not good.

    The Q45 is where Infiniti starts to turn for the worse. This car has never been able to get out of the Lexus LS's shawdow and then they tried to market it as some type of full-size sports sedan when nothing couldn't have been further from the truth. The Q is the definition of a lame duck and its lineage pretty much sucks if you can remember the previous generation which actually was smaller, slower and worse looking then car it replaced. Brilliant move on their part if destroying a nameplate is the goal! I really don't know what suggest for them to do about the Q. I can't seen Nissan spending the money to make it a S-Class/LS type luxo-crusier and actually beating them at that. Forget about taking on the A8 and especially the 7-Series unless you're going to actually make the thing sporty.

    The Q's problem has always been that its just 16 feet of car, about as anonymous as you can get. That, and the interior was always awful, basically Nissan quality with some extra wood trim. Making the "Q41" for 1997 supposedly had something to do with making the car more "light and nimble", by shaving off 200lbs. thanks in part to the smaller engine. (It also allowed them to avoid the gas-guzzler tax) we all know how that turned out. For 2002 they just made it wierder, without making it better. If the best thing you can think of to advertise the car is how great the headlights are, the car has serious problems.

    As far as their SUVs, the FX is all they have worthwhile, of course IMO. The FX's looks tickle me (in a good way) looking like something a gangster in a cartoon would drive, short, fat and stubby, but good looking if you can picture that. It really drive like a tall sports car too. The QX on the other hand is just another big ole truck truck wit a big ole grille, but the Cadillacs own that segment when it comes to "bling".

    The FX is a great product, something totally different from what Lexus and Acura have. The QX is not. It's everything thats wrong with the "old Infiniti", an almost transparent rebadge of a Nissan product. That, and it's less reliable than a Land Rover.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Infiniti & Nissan go into the great beyond is in terms of efficiency. As others have pointed out, getting good acceleration numbers isn't too hard, so long as you're willing to throw MPG under the bus.

    The car I'm driving threw MPG under the bus for a whole different reason -- ultra-low emissions. I drove an Eagle Vision with a 3.5 V6 that consistently got 2 mpg better than my 3.0 Lincoln LS. But the LS is an ULEV -- oh boy.

    Is Nissan/Infiniti chasing that green dragon as well? Are Audi & BMW classified in the same emission category as the Infinitis? Is it better to burn 35% less fuel & emit a bit more "pollution," or get the certificate and 17 mpg?

    What I like (among other things) about Audi & BMW is that they do what they do and still get 25+ mpg on the highway -- 30 mpg on a good day. Infiniti hasn't a prayer of doing that, given their present tilt.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The 3.1 V6 has been praised extensively. Indeed, it has a 12+:1 compression ratio and achieves impressive power (both HP and torque) and, when it is turbo charged (in the case of the 2.0) achieves power like a larger engine with impressive economy.

    Furhter advances are sure to come as FSI evolves.

    Of course, now BMW seems keen to embrace turbo charging as Audi seems keen to produce huge power from non pressurized engines.

    I can't wait (as if they'll do it) for a super-turbo charged FSI engine (such as the Audi 3.1) that easily achieves over 300 HP and well over 300 pound feet of torque at about 2RPM.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I can't wait (as if they'll do it) for a super-turbo charged FSI engine (such as the Audi 3.1) that easily achieves over 300 HP and well over 300 pound feet of torque at about 2RPM."

    That gave me a chuckle. ;-) That having been said, I'm thinking that you doth exaggerate a bit, it's probably more like 60 rpms. :shades:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I could say I meant 2KRPM's -- but I was saying what I said, as you picked up, for effect.

    Seriously, I have read all about the combination of super and turbo or an electric assist to a turbo charger to eliminate turbo lag.

    But imagine what the 3.1 FSI engine could output with even a mild turbo application (remember the last iteration of the 2.7T bi-turbo?) -- easily 300HP and what? 325 lb ft of torque at 1850 rpm?

    The full on RS treatment to this engine would certainly be capable of a horsepower number beginning with a 4.

    The 4.2FSI hasn't even begun to show its capabilities.

    Wonder what will come to pass.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    As a long time advocate of using a turbo (or turbo-compressor supercharger as referred to by the NACA in "Report No. 230" dated simply "1926" http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1926/naca-report-230/ ) to effectively allow an engine to dynamically increase its displacement (or make it less susceptible to power losses at altitude), that last post of yours is "Speaking my language". ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What I like (among other things) about Audi & BMW is that they do what they do and still get 25+ mpg on the highway -- 30 mpg on a good day. Infiniti hasn't a prayer of doing that, given their present tilt.

    Lexus as well. The IS350 has more horsepower and torque than the G35, and at the same time is rated 21\28 and is ULEV-II.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The Q's problem has always been that its just 16 feet of car, about as anonymous as you can get. That, and the interior was always awful, basically Nissan quality with some extra wood trim. Making the "Q41" for 1997 supposedly had something to do with making the car more "light and nimble", by shaving off 200lbs. thanks in part to the smaller engine. (It also allowed them to avoid the gas-guzzler tax) we all know how that turned out. For 2002 they just made it wierder, without making it better. If the best thing you can think of to advertise the car is how great the headlights are, the car has serious problems.

    I agree. I couldn't remember the displacement of the V8 in that car, but that was it a 4.1L V8.

    The QX is not. It's everything thats wrong with the "old Infiniti", an almost transparent rebadge of a Nissan product. That, and it's less reliable than a Land Rover.

    Youch!

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    What would've happened if the NSX had been the Honda NSX here, as it is in the rest of the world? Would anyone in the US buy a $90K+ Honda?

    I don’t think it would have done any worse. I think most people who bought the NSX are enthusiasts and know it’s a Honda anyway. I don’t believe the Acura badge which was still new at the time did anything for the NSX. If anything it was the other way around. It sold only 9000 cars in the US from its launch in ’91 until now.

    The badges are Honda for the NSX and Nissan for the GT-R, regardless of which division they are sold under. Anyone who does not know this would not be inclined to buy them anyway. The NSX did nothing for the Acura badge and it is questionable what the GT-R can do for Infiniti. The Japanese luxury divisions are just that—luxury.

    BTW, don’t forget to put the NSX in historical perspective. It came out at $65K in '91 and offered more than the 911 at a time when Porsche was on the precipice. Where did they go with it? When compared with other cars the answer is backward. Regardless of badge, they were nuts in taking it to that $90K package—living proof that Japanese cars have their work cut out at premium or exotic prices. NSX was an awesome car and few wanted it.
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