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Comments
I have read the reviews of both machines and I am hopeful for either dual survival or a quick end to the format war.
The new, brand new, version 2 Toshiba is out next month, it may reduce some of your concerns.
I share you enthusiasm re the potential sound benefits.
I really believe most folks don't care now and probably won't care about the improvments that these new media and formats allow.
Good is the enemy of great, just like in cars.
All of these cars, for instance, are good. Perhaps there is a great one in the bunch.
I haven't found it.
It definitely mirrors the bitter format war a few years ago between DVD-A and SACD. Both of those formats brought higher quality, along with much more stringent copy protection, and no increase in convenience (actually a big decrease, because of the analog output only restriction due to copy fears.) Firewire ultimately solved that issue, but by the time the players were out, no one cared anymore. The victory ultimately went to the mp3. People care much more about convenience than they do about quality. This time around, it may end up being "on demand" sat\cable\IPTV.
I think Infiniti shows enormous potential. Their cars certainly aren't perfect yet, but I'm very eager to see what the 2012 M is like. I'd also very much like to see Infiniti start a tuner division. The G and M with suspension and brake upgrades could easily handle 400hp+.
They do show great potential, it's funny because Road & Track just did a comparison test of the fastest SUV's in their November issue called, "Chariots with Fire."
They included the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8, Porsche Cayenne Turbo, Chevrolet Trailblazer SS, Infiniti FX45, BMW X5 4.8is, and Range Rover Supercharged.
The Jeep beat all of them in acceleration, but in the end they said:
"To SUV or not to SUV gets even more complicated when vehicles like the Jeep, for example, lose utility along the way to achieving better on-road manners. Maybe Infiniti has had it right the whole time. For if we agree that most people never take their SUVs off road, a crossover SUV like the FX45 provides exactly what people are looking for: It looks big and tough like an SUV, but performs as well, or better than, many sport sedans."
I've had a slightly different experience. When I was test-driving cars, I definitely found it easier to use push-button controls. Owning an MMI car, I've discovered that I spend less time looking for the right control for something I want to do, because, with my audio system, for example, I've fairly quickly gotten to the point where I can change stations not only off steering wheel controls, using small screen right in front of me on the A6, but also I know the order of the 8 or so channels (mix of AM, FM, SAT) on the main audio station menu (just as I always have gotten to know the order of stations assigned to the five or six buttons) and can reach down and turn the wheel the right number of clicks to reach the one I want. In stop and go traffic in the morning, I do a lot less looking away from the car in front of me.
My A6 has 82 dials, buttons, gauges, etc -- voice command is not nice, it is necessary (in these cars.)
The BMW system seems even better still.
-Paul
Navigation: Navigate to or Previous destinations [list]
Radio: Play
CD: Disk, Track
CD: Name tag
Phone: Dial number
Phone: Call name tag
These functions work about 98% of the time first time.
They have trouble if there are other folks in the car who keep talking after the voice module says something like "the number please" or "do you want to navigate to the indicated destination."
Otherwise the system is very good and way limited compared to the Acura and Infiniti systems -- limited, meaning far fewer commands.
I do not know the numbers, but the Audi accepts 20 commands and the others accept 100. I may be wrong, but the differences I have personally experienced seem to be on that order of magnitude.
The voice commands, are "pretty good" overall at this point in time -- in a couple of years, the Acura system, for example, will probably be a $1.38 option on a PT Cruiser.
Voice and totally hands free, eyes free phoning "ought to be made into law." I mean, if ESP will be required by law (an intervening technology, if ever there was one), you'd think voice command controlling hand and eyes free distracting technologies, like cell phones, would pass virtually any house of government, with the possible exception of libertarian.
Maybe the issue is not as pressing as I imagine. Since actually fiddling with the MMI is not often needed while driving. But, it only takes a second to glance at something to travel 88 feet (at 60MPH) in one second. I rarely need to look or touch anything to make a phone call and the steering wheel controls mean I rarely have to look at anything for most of the other functions.
Process: Pushing a button, listening for a beep, saying it clearly, having it confirm my instruction, then making a change. I can do almost anything in 1/3rd the time by just pressing a button. Too cold hit the temp up button. Want a specific preset - hit audio (to switch to audio on Nav) and just press the screen).
It is always easier to just push a button. A co-worker has a BMW 5 series and he always comments on the ease of function for the Lexus. He loves his car, but not how a lot of things are implemented (especially the Nav).
Why do you think that car companies started adding back buttons to their cars for Audio and Climate control? Plus buttons never have an error margin (such as showing a POI on Nav when requesting a certain radio station).
Pressing Voice Button on steering wheel and saying "Dial Home" is, however, easy and efficient, for me.
Yes, I agree, when I want to increase temp in A6 on cold morning, I like that I can simply turn one dial clockwise. I haven't used BMW iDrive, but your comment suggests turning heat up is a project with that system.
Car companies must believe most drivers want buttons if, as you say, they are adding them back. I've never used a no-button system. If iDrive is virtually without buttons to push, I imagine not finding it easy to adapt to, but some BMW-users (your Lexus-envying friend excluded) must like it.
I don't see my preferences as competing with yours or with those of majority of drivers and I was not claiming to have discovered that any one function-control system -- voice, MMI (which is actually a nice blend of buttons and dials), or all-buttons -- is best for all drivers to do everything that they want to do.
I was simply commenting that I've learned to do, with MMI, a couple of frequently repeated tasks, without looking away from traffic, which is something I hadn't been able to do with all-button arrangement .
I haven't used voice command system on Lexus. On my Audi, there some things (including, as you point out, number dial) for which it is quick and efficient, as Charlie just mentioned, such as "Dial Office."
"It is always easier to just push a button."
I'd say "very often," which is why I liked MMI's combination of buttons and dials -- dialing temperature up or down is about as easy as changing temperature gets.
"Why do you think that car companies started adding back buttons to their cars for Audio and Climate control?"
I'll take your word that all or most car companies have started adding back buttons. I don't follow the car-control scene that closely. I don't feel really emotional about buttons versus dials versus voice commands. I've found some of each to work well on my current car and wouldn't eliminate any of them altogether.
"Plus buttons never have an error margin."
Except, of course, when one of us pushes the wrong one.
The other day I saw my twenty year plus old truck, and I really do like the symplicity of the push pull levers, and just all around basic stuff...no elec seat, but a very comfortable bench slider..crank up windows, durable plastic coverings, absolutely no mechanical problems for my fourteen years, and the acustics were the best...I guess because the cab was small..The cost back then was four thousand dollars...Now here we are driving expensive cars that are for sure safer, but really not that much better in relation to the price....And here I am thinking of a Bentley Tony
This is the one voice command that I use most frequently on my M45. The ability to drive at full speed on twisty roads (which is the norm as I leave my house) is a total pleasure for me. Given that I have a house with myself and three woman (my wife and 2 daughters) who are never quite on time, the fact that I can always enter an address on the fly, without out slowing down, and without the distraction of taking my eyes off the road, is awfully gratifying, and has become a "must have" for me on any future car. Beyond street addresses, the other voice commands I use most frequently are dialing phone book entries with voice tags such as "Dial Dorothy" and choosing Navigation Address Book destinations, with commands such as such as "Goto Sarah's School"
The last time I checked neither the 5-series, E-series, or GS provided voice commands for saying street address destinations or voice tags for phonebook and address book. (The E-class had a halfway approach where you had to spell the city and street name, rather than just saying them, which was not workable for me.) The acura RL also does a very good job with these. Does the Audi, and have the others added that functionality in the newest models?
For functions such as radio tuning, base, treble, balance, climate control, blower speed, temp, and blower mode (feet, head, both, passenger or driver side), Nav turnlist on/off, the M45's quick click steering and dash buttons seem faster and more immediate than going through voice (especially when you need to fine tune an adjustment. Although the M's voice commands appear to do most everything you might want.)
Pete
It seems like it comes down to two different ways to creating cleaner interiors. Touch screen or control nob. Both reduce clutter depending on how much gets integrated.
I do discount the argument that (generic quote) "it becomes easy to use after a while" since we can get used to anything given time (Argument most associated with BMW). The key is if it is easy to use the first couple of times before the brain gets retrained.
But, it is woefully inadequate. You can say "navigation" and then "navigate to _____________ (name tag.)"
You can also tell it to show you "everywhere" you have ever been and anything you have stored in the address book.
You cannot tell it to find Cincinnati, Ohio, Main Street and Walnut -- unless it is a previous desitnation.
I had put a deposit on the Infiniti M35X with Technology Package and I had learned to use the Infinit voice system which I would say is "the best" today.
The Germans (well, Audi and BMW -- since I have very limited Mercedes experience) have produced some fine cars in every way. Yet, the ability to add electronic features and functions and controls seems to always come late to them.
I remember when even power door locks (and even power steering) came late to the German cars even though much lower priced American and Japanese cars could almost NOT be found without such features.
I lived with crank sunroofs for several years while my Japanese car buying friends had power roofs.
At the time, other aspects of the German cars (handling, composure, safety, a solid feel, etc) were plentiful compared to the domestic and Asian imports.
The Germans still have managed somehow to have a feel behind the wheel that Infiniti seems close to figuring out, but the Infiniti came (offered with the Journey package) with a backup camera in 2005, Audi came out with theirs this year in the 2007 model.
The Acura RDX with technology package comes with a comprehensive voice command package and DVD-Audio. The BMW X3 with EVERY possible option cannot be had with either and is $10,000 more to boot.
The Germans have "the feel behind the wheel" thus far. The Japanese seem to be sneaking up on that, but not quite there yet; but, they offer electronics and gizmos that seem years ahead of most Germans and even most Europeans. The Americans seem, to me, more like the Japanese in this regard than the Germans -- check out the high zoot Cadillac STS, for instance.
At this time, I can only hope for voice commands (and even some steering wheel controls) that the M's have.
I wouldn't go that far. Cadillac yes, but the rest of the US auto industry is still in the "me, make fire" era. 4-speed automatics, 12-valve pushrod V6s, live rear axles, leafsprings, it goes on and on. Jeep finally retired their stone age IL6 in the Wrangler, only to replace it with their bronze age minivan engine, which now makes the Mustang V6 the winner of "worlds oldest engine design". Many domestic cars only started offering NAV systems a few years ago. Acura had one in '96.
As for getting where I'm going, I'm still excited by MapQuest and Yahoo Maps. For unknown local destination, if I was going to use Nav system, I'd probably be out in the car 10 minutes before everyone else, punching in address(es) of places we are going. I hadn't thought about getting in the car and starting to drive, not knowing where I'm going because I'd be counting on Nav-DVD system to take in my voice commands on the fly and show me where to go. I do, however, see how an M owner could get used to what Pete and Mark described.
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety chooses their top picks in each catagory for the first time. (This was aired on NBC's Dateline TV program.)
Silver Award
Large cars
Audi A6
Midsize cars
Audi A3
Audi A4
Chevrolet Malibu (with optional side airbags)
VW Jetta
VW Passat
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Gold Award
Large cars
Ford 500 or Mercury Montego (with optional side airbags)
Midsize cars
Saab 9-3
Subaru Legacy
Small Cars
Honda Civic 4-door
Thanks for the info about voice commands with NAV destinations. I agree that the M might be the best on that, although I hear Acura does a great job as well.
The Germans have "the feel behind the wheel" thus far.
I understand that this is your opinion, and thus is totally valid from that context. Personally, I prefer the M's light, responsive handling to its competitors, and I don't think I'm alone here.
The November C&D comparo (comparing the M45 to the 550i, E550, GS450h) said the following:
"First there is its character. The logbook commentary seemed to favor the Infiniti for its eagerness -- a light steering touch with good feedback, brisk turn-in, quick transitions, a general sense of being quick on its feet, that made the Bimmer's responses seem a tad heavy and well Teutonic. Yes we gave the 550i a one point edge in fun to drive, a tribute to its superb competence. But of the two cars the M45 seemed more exuberant and ready to play."
One can argue both sides of the case here, but if BMW has a handling edge for C&D it's pretty hard to tell. (And clearly they preferred the M45's handling to the E550's)
For those who've test driven both and prefer the handling of a german car, the choice may be clear. But those who go German without an M test drive, may have missed a great opportunity to find out for themselves.
Pete
The purchase came to feel like a mistake to me, not because I found the M to be deficient, but, as Mark implied, German sedans feel both different and better to me (all three of the major ones) than the driving feel of the M. That subjective report, as with Mark's, carries, in my view, no greater or lesser weight than a C&D comparo, however much hubris might be suggested by my equating my three months of experience with the reports of professional auto-critics.
Nonetheless, were a friend to ask, I'd still say "drive them all."
I wouldn't steer anyone away from the M because it didn't fit me, but I also wouldn't steer them toward it because several auto-mags picked it as their favorite. I'd caution them, in fact, about allowing auto-mag raves to distract them from their own experience. What I find most useful about auto-mags is the fun of finding one that tells me how smart I was to buy the car I bought.
On the other hand, I wouldn't suggest anyone should buy an Audi or BMW because I like the way they feel. And I'd caution them about assuming "German feel" is a universal and abolute virtue which they will regret passing up if they buy a Japanese car.
If I could go along with them on extended test-drives of each car and have a pleasure-excitement meter reading their brain-emotion centers when they look at each car, sit in each for the first time, and drive each on all sorts of highways, streets and even into parking lots -- then I'd have valuable information for them.
It's not the fastest, best handler, but arguably the safest. The all new 2007' Volvo S80. "Be prepared for the road ahead" as Volvo says.
IMHO, it's alot of car for the money. Just like Mercedes and BMW's use to be.
I know that might anger some of you, but in my eyes which some might say are distorted, it's a clear winner especially when you factor in price.
Look at the craftsmanship of the interior and tell me another car that has one that's easier on the eyes ?
2007' Volvo S80
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=116977?tid=edm- - - - - - - unds.il.home.photopanel..1.*
http://www.volvocars.com/campaigns/news80/OpenDoors/default.htm
Take a look for yourself.
It's the perfect high-speed grand tourer for going a buck-thirty and listening to Sophia Scofield, on a winding country road
Volvo. for life
Rocky
Yet, more and more I've come to the conclusion that folks will almost always make up their minds in advance for whatever reason and then figure out a way to explain it to themselves.
Costs, if they really were equal, might reveal greater differences in preferences, but even then, I am not completely certain.
My first choice, German, Audi. My second choice, Japanese, Infiniti. My price weighted choices, switched.
When Audi coughed up a $200 per month lease payment reduction on the exact car I had wanted all along, switcheroo again.
I believe I would have been very satisfied with the M35X. I am certain I would have when I wrote the monthly lease check. Maybe I would have accepted the M's feel, especially since I thought it was really quite close to the A6's in the first place. And, all the magazines, FWIW, said Infiniti [in the M's] was closing the gap between themselves and the BMW LPS's.
Closing the gap -- well, darnit -- that is why the Infiniti was my close second, even with its superior sound system and superior navigation and voice command. But, coming from a country [Germany] that has for decades enjoyed wide open running and no speed limits and built cars that could do that competently, well, there was/is an advantage and it shows (less and less, I'll admit.)
So, for me, for the time being, the German feel is a bonus. All the writers who pick the M seem to compare the M to a German (usually BMW) -- even though they declare the M a winner. . . .
At this time, the German feel -- for me -- is also a bonus.
Nevertheless, I would still advise anyone to "drive 'em all" -- for I also believe these cars, all of them, have much in common.
I thought the web site was pretty cool, ONE TIME. Kinda reminded me of a later (Brosnan) James Bond DVD navigation.
I thought the V8 was automatically AWD. I can't prove it though.
The V-8 goes 0-60 in 6.4 seconds in a car mag test and it has AWD.
Rocky
Or just visit the 30 or 40 posts I've posted through-out the year on Volvo site. Most have links.
Rocky
Some say that about me. I'm a Norge car forum posting God J/K :P
Rocky
A Volvo sex machine. Wow, I'd never thought I'd see that. Can we tone down the Volvo PR a bit though? In reality, it's not all that sexy. The exterior is the same Volvo shape thats been with us since '01, just in large size. The interior is Volvo S40, with some nicer materials. It is no match for the A6, or M on the inside.
This car reminds me a lot of the S60R, which Volvo thought could take on the M3, a $40K car that is all bark, no bite. The S80's engines (especially the 6) aren't nearly powerful enough. The adjustable effort steering is a very cool idea, I can't wait for Infiniti or BMW to offer that. On the Volvo, its would you like "light effort-numb, medium effort-numb, or heavy effort-numb"? Heavy steering does not mean "good" steering. You don't buy a Volvo for road feel. That hasn't changed.
The AWD system (I assume) is the same that's used in every other AWD Volvo. That means a Haldex-clutch with a 95\5 front\rear torque split. It's there for bad weather conditions and mitigating torque steer. The idea of a "sporty" AWD system, like ATTESA E-TS, or even Audi's latest rear biased Torsen Quattro systems, has never crossed Volvo's mind.
Audi's newest interiors are as bad as BMW's. M-what ? Infiniti M ? Ummm, no. I declaring you legally blinde. :P
This car reminds me a lot of the S60R, which Volvo thought could take on the M3, a $40K car that is all bark, no bite. Its engines (especially the 6) aren't nearly powerful enough. The adjustable effort steering is a very cool idea, I can't wait for Infiniti or BMW to offer that. On the Volvo, its would you like "light effort-numb, medium effort-numb, or heavy effort-numb"? Heavy steering does not mean "good" steering. You don't buy a Volvo for road feel. That hasn't changed.
Well they have made major improvements in that dept.
The AWD system (I assume) is the same that's used in every other AWD Volvo. That means a Haldex-clutch with a 95\5 front\rear torque split. It's there for bad weather conditions and mitigating torque steer. The idea of a "sporty" AWD system, like ATTESA E-TS, or even Audi's latest rear biased Torsen Quattro systems, has never crossed Volvo's mind.
The Haldex, does its job. I never said it would out sport a BMW, but it's competitive enough to play. It's styling both inside and out along with "exclusive gadgets" makes it a Scandinavian God among cars. The other plus side is it can be driven in inclement weather, something the others can only do with snow shoes at the 4 corners.
Rocky
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
5-Series 3,190
GS 2,706
M 1,933
A6 1,061
RL 1,015
Don't know Caddy's sale figure.
Rocky
Anyway, we were just discussing how Edmunds points out the S80 V8 is under $50k, but then states this is the same as its competitors. this is obviously not true .... volvo S80 discussion
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
i didn't mean you had to respond directly anyway. just thought since you posted a link to the article, you might be interested in some reponses to it.
more than anything, driving traffic over there from here to discuss the car ain't a bad thing.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Rocky
A speculation ... purchasing a car, in general, but maybe especially so once you get into this price range, evokes enough anxiety to push for premature closure. You know I'm speaking from experience, but I also believe it might be true for a substantial number of others. Achieving a state of "I have no doubt" is anxiety-reducing. I might have been relatively unique in the extent to which a pile of auto-mag raves not only trumped quite a number of auto-mags cautions, about the Infiniti Ms, but, more critically to my subsequent mental health, trumped my own experience driving the cars, which I find to provide significantly different driving experiences.
Beyond my personal experience, I believe that magazines and CR/JDP "stats" provide plenty of grist for that premature closure mill and for the similar experience of cementing one's certainty about having purchased perfection, after the purchase -- which might be a good mental health thing for the buyer but which, beyond a certain point, appears to start to grate on some other forum participants. The "drive 'em all alternative" assumes that, in driving them all, one will tolerate the impossibility of arriving at "I have no doubt that I've found the one-and-only best car in class" and settle for "I think this is the one (or maybe, simply "one" rather than "the only one") with a combination of style and driving feel that will satisfy me most over the next few years".