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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • mbbrooksmbbrooks Member Posts: 16
    Who really cares a rats [non-permissible content removed] about what C&D says? Not I. I've had too many cars of various makes and vintages to care, be that good or bad. It really seems to me that those who require confirmation of the C&D or MT (need I mention advertising dollars as a predictor of outcome) are those who are the least sure in their decision.

    You really should drive any car you might be interested in. From that experience I can tell you that C&D might well be correct about the M as being best in class. From that experience I can also tell you that the car does not reflect well in my eyes, that some of the interior pieces look like original Nissan, and that my local dealership left much to be desired. It is not all in the driving. Indeed much of what impresses C&D is only found in driving the car harder than it will be driven in 98% of its life.

    I ended up buying the last car I drove as I thought it was the one car I would not buy. As it turns out my test drive was a very pleasant surprise and I had a very good dealer experience. So there you have it for what it may be worth.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Yeah, what he said ... that's what I was (much more tediously) saying.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I may need to amend my opinion that goes: folks make up their minds in advance and then figure out a way to convince themselves that their choices were objective moreso than subjective.

    Here is why.

    I have known personally several people (and read the postings of many more here and elsewhere) who are really "car people." If you strike up a conversation with them they seem to be a walking reference book about "fill in the blank" cars. They may even know more than the average person on the street about other competing brands, or perhaps broadly about many brands. Like folks who know baseball stats from yesteryear, they seem to know all about that 1969 GTO with the Hurst shifter and the plastic bumper that came in Candy Apple Red and can go on an on about details that will boggle most folks minds.

    Car People.

    Perhaps Car People are the least most least objective of all, contrary to what I probably thought at first. Car People are positive that BMW and only BMW is or does X,Y & Z "the way it should be done." Or that Lexus builds the best cars ever screwed together.

    I am a Car Person, I know that, but I thought I did a pretty good job of test driving the competition and some that weren't technically the competition (a Chrysler 300C AWD, for instance.)

    Yet, I ended up with Audi #27 or #28 even though I had actually put a deposit down on an Infiniti.

    It is my assumption (yes, assumption) that some folks here actually practice what many of us Car People preach. Perhaps the non Car People arrive at the most objective choice, or at least more objective that the Car People do.

    The Audi, BMW, Lexus and Mercedes Car People soldier on faithful (mostly) to their brands -- and able to "objectively" 'splain why.

    The folks who really do test 4 or 5 of these fine LPS cars and actually do stray from their "faves" after careful evaluation. . .well I take my hat off to them. But, be careful, when I read some of their subsequent posts, I can sometimes detect that they too may be becoming Car People.

    No wonder the car companies spend so much money and time to promote the BMW Lifestyle or furnish the Audi Boutique. The car companies, BMW for example, want nothing more than to take someone with the name Lexusguy and convert him to BMWguy, and then do all in their marketing machine's power to further inculcate over the years that follow.

    In other words, I stand, corrected, er, amended. :surprise:

    We are DEVO, eh?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Perhaps Car People are the least most least objective of all, contrary to what I probably thought at first. Car People are positive that BMW and only BMW is or does X,Y & Z "the way it should be done." Or that Lexus builds the best cars ever screwed together."

    Then again, test drives or no, some of us can narrow down the choices to a single car by eliminating the competition based on the written word. How? Well in my case at least, if the written word don't say "6-Speed Manual Transmission", then I ain't interested. So, I'm fairly "positive that BMW and only BMW" allows for three pedals under the dash in their U.S. sold LPS offerings.

    If I was in the market for a new LPS today, I might very well drive the other cars, however, only the cars that can be had with a stick will make the short list.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • felke001felke001 Member Posts: 33
    I have to say that this topic consistently has some of the best discussion on edmunds.

    Obviously, preconceived notions have a lot of influence on subjective decisions (like which car has the most "spirited driving" or "road feel" or even "luxury").

    Other things being equal, we tend to mold experience to match our preconceived notions. If you go into the test drive thinking "this BMW is going to drive great" or "this Lexus is going to be incredibly well put together" or even "this lexus is going to have numb steering"--your subjective impression is very likely to match your preconception.

    This is classic Bayesian statistic theory (pardon me while I reveal my inner math geek)--pretest probabilities have a major impact on post-test probabilities after any "diagnostic test" (which is what a test drive is, after all).

    This is where I think reading the boards and all the car mags before your test drive (as I and probably most of you all do) may do you a disservice by clouding your own impression with preconceived notions about what a given car should feel like.

    Just my random 2 cents.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I agree with ya Shipo, I remember as a kid Audi, use to make a stick in just about every size, what happened to those days ?

    Rocky
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Shipo, I am with you -- well, at least I WAS with you on this one. Now, well, I'm not so sure.

    The Infiniti did have a 5 speed auto which did seem odd, but, hey, the Cadillac also had 5 cogs in their auto too, so I somehow thought to myself, well. . .maybe these 6 and 7 speed dudes are more about quantity than capability.

    I'm this way: no 2WD cars need apply. I won't even bother testing a 2WD car unless it is just for fun (e.g., the new 335 BMW coupe, wheeeeee!)

    But, I've now lived with two almost new at the same time German cars, a 6 speed manual BMW X3 (225 HP) and a 6 speed automatic Audi A6 (255 HP). I traded out of an Audi allroad 2.7T 6 speed manual somewhat kicking and screaming (for at that time, the 530xi 6 speed was not out yet.)

    What the heck, I figured, I'm 54 and manuals are all but dead here in 'merica.

    Now, 25K miles on the two Germans noted above -- I love 'em both (mostly.) The tip lag is virtually a non-event (maybe the damn thing did "learn me") and I have also driven the 6 speed Steptronic equipped 530xi and found it acceptable.

    I took a nice long drive in an Audi with the DSG and the 255 HP engine (the A3 chassis) and even though it is not a TorSen AWD set up, I was very impressed with the DSG.

    At this moment given the following choices: 6 speed tip or step, DSG, CVT, SMG or manual, I would probably elect to go with the DSG (and the "new" DSG offers 7 speeds and perhaps will be offered on a stateside car -- maybe from BMW -- within 2 years, so the rumor goes.)

    The 7 speed Mercedes-tronics apparently cannot be had in a 4Matic equipped Mercedes, or that surely would be a consideration too.

    My point is, I have lived with the dismal 5 speed tip-tronics, tested the terrible 5 speed stutter-tronics and even tested GM vehicles of late vintage that still soldiered on with the "venerable" 4 speed autos.

    I actually could "live" in peace and pleasure with the 6 speed tip were I forced to.

    I am testing a 260HP 2007 BMW X3 3.0si this Saturday -- WITH the 6 speed Steptronic. My pre-test prediction, I will find it "impressive."

    My wife, Shipo, seems to be more of a "manual forever, auto never" mode -- or at least she has been previously. She, too, found even the lowly 5 speed Steptronic in a 2006 X5 (V8) to have "merit" (or merit enough to consider one with the 6 speed Step, were it to have greater grunt -- which of course the new 3.0's have [in spades with the "35" twin turbo motivator.])

    Anyway, I am now, of the "never say never" persuasion with respect to autos.

    I am keen to test something like a 335xi coupe with whatever BMW dubs their 7 speed DSG clone transmission.

    Or perhaps the B8 A4 with a similar transmission and a 3.2T FSI engine (I can dream, can't I?)

    In any case, the Artist Formerly Known as NO AUTOMATICS is now at least willing to expand my horizons with some of these high-performance autos.

    It is also convenient, too, since I predict the paucity of sticks, will soon become the "unavailable at any price" transmission. :surprise:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "It is also convenient, too, since I predict the paucity of sticks, will soon become the "unavailable at any price" transmission."

    Once upon a time I posted that if I was to ever find out that the last ELLPS/LPS with a stick was going to cease production (or at least cease being sold here in the U.S.A.) that I would run out and buy several so as to have a stick available to my cold dead hand (as it were). Now, two or three years after I made that post I am still inclined to follow through on that statement. As good as Automatic transmissions have become (DSG and such), and as good as they are likely to get, I don't want a car with a transmission that does it for me, it's just too much of a loss in driver involvement for my tastes.

    I guess that means that I'm still a driving artist known as NO AUTOMATICS, Mrs. Shipo is too. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Mark,

    I don't know that you are so much taking a different position as you are further developing one, with which I agree, that there is more than one road to car-owner satisfaction. That's, to me, what matters. Whether it's a car for me or a friend or relative, what matters is that the person keeps saying "I really like this car" after they buy it and drive it.

    I don't really care what it is that allows them to say that. Pete appears, for example, to combine his own driving experience with all the auto reviews he can find that praise his Infiniti. If that combination = Pete's car-happiness, I think "Good for Pete."

    To whatever extent this forum might be a source of information (or inspiration) for someone to end up as happy with their cars as you are with your A6, Pete is with his M, and mbbrooks is with his E350 (the one other car, in 2007 Sport version, I think I would have been happy with) -- to that extent it has served a purpose (not that it doesn't also serve well as venting board and place to have fun talking with people about shared interest).

    Similarly, if someone bought a car (remember one participant in the spring who said he/she wanted to choose a car with no test-driving) solely on the basis of what a bunch of auto-mag reviews said or what CR said, and a year later, they were saying "I'm so happy I bought this car. I love it," that's a good outcome, even if one of us thinks: "But, if only you would have driven the BMW 5-series or the Infiniti M, you could have been so much happier."
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    No wonder the car companies spend so much money and time to promote the BMW Lifestyle or furnish the Audi Boutique. The car companies, BMW for example, want nothing more than to take someone with the name Lexusguy and convert him to BMWguy, and then do all in their marketing machine's power to further inculcate over the years that follow.

    There's a bit in this week's AE that relates to this.

    "The American consumer has become notoriously brand disloyal in recent years with driving the "hot" thing of the moment replacing the quaint, "my Dad drove one and I just grew up with it" kind of mentality that existed in the car business so long ago. As a matter of fact, there's a rampant explosion of Adult Attention Deficit Disorder going on out there that's fueled by product/service reliability issues more than anything else. In the old days, a couple of trips back to the dealer for non-scheduled maintenance were no big deal. Today, a couple of trips back to the dealer for non-routine service and people tend to start looking elsewhere - and most of those customers drift away for good."

    I know there are plenty of people on this board who would without question stick with their brand, regardless of unscheduled dealer visits, but I'm not one of those people. I was the mercedesguy at one point, but the Benz driving experience was just not worth the constant aggrivations, and a lousy dealer to boot. I've been happy with my LSes, but that certainly doesn't mean that I would refuse to consider another car. I definitely want to see what Infiniti does with the "new Q" before I pull the trigger on a LS460.

    I certainly am not so drunk on the Lexus kool-aid to think that the SC430 is even remotely competitive with the CLK550, or 6, or XK.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    I haven't thought of auto-brand-loyalty as due to habit or "my father drove one," but rather "I like the way that brand looks and feels". Liking the way, say, the BMW 3-series looked from 1992 through 2004 might have led someone to keep buying/leasing one after another, despite evidence that some Japanese brands required less attention.

    If you think of "brand loyalty" as personal or family habit, then it's easy to imagine it being trumped by "expectation of greater reliability."

    But if you really like the way a brand looks and feels, then there will be a fork in the road and many will stay with MB, despite more unscheduled service visits.

    If a particular owner has a bad experience, then the worse the combined reliability/dealer experience the more likely he or she will be to jump ship. But I wouldn't assume continued popularity of MB is due to mindless loyalty.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Well, here is what I always say, "when you come to a fork in the road, take it."

    :confuse:

    Hmm, my dad had a 1961 VW Beetle. Hmm, VW owns Audi, I have had 28 Audis.

    Am I somehow. . .

    But wait, my dad had two Hudson Hornet's with Twin-H Power and more Chryco products than anything else I can remember.

    Must be a coincidence.

    I never got the feeling my dad liked any car he ever had except those Hudson's.

    "Me, I'm just a lawnmower, you can tell by the way I walk."

    - obscure song lyrics of the day :confuse:
  • lansdownemikelansdownemike Member Posts: 54
    Reading the recent messages on auto/stick, the possibly unconsidered question of learning to drive with an automatic came to mind. Here's an analogy. If someone who had learned on an automatic, driven one for 10 years, and couldn't imagine why he needed a stick were to spend a weekend learning to drive with a stick from his girlfriend and drive a Nissan Sentra (standard) for a week, would you trust his judgment on the value of driving with a stick? Probably not.

    The new European and Japanese automatics need to be learned and driven to be appreciated. They're as far from your father's hydramatic transmission as a new Z4 is from a 20-year old Toyota Corolla. This is true not just for how they feel, but how they should be driven. Today you can have quite a bit of control over what gear you're in and how quickly you can shift gears by judicious application of throttle and brake, not just by the paddles. A sharp application of throttle (just enough, not too much, learned by experience) as you enter the on-ramp can be just as effective, if not quick as quick (difference measured in 10s of milliseconds) as a manual downshift.

    My point is simply that those who are still known as "No Automatics" (but are open to learning new skills) might enjoy a few hours in one of the newer autoboxes on their favorite roads. Once they learn how to get the most out of them, they just might be more receptive to the idea.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm afraid that we're going to have to part company on this one. The fact is that no matter how good an automatic is, it's still going to automate some or all of the gear changing process and as such there will be some loss of control for the driver. That much at least cannot be debated.

    True, automatic transmissions such as the technologically wonderful DSG when driven in semi-automatic mode will allow the driver to select which gear he or she desires (assuming that it is sequentially one above or below the currently selected gear), however, it still will not allow the driver to dynamically determine how fast/how hard the gear change occurs.

    Given the dynamic nature of traffic, regardless of whether it's on public streets or on the track, I've often initiated a gear change expecting then then status-quo to continue, only to have something unexpected happen. In that scenario I might want to, A) accelerate the gear change and subsequent engagement, B) slow down the gear change and subsequent engagement, or C) select a different gear and engagement intensity entirely. Can a manumatic do that mid shift? Can a sequential style transmission?

    To my way of thinking, until the Transmission Control Unit can be neurally wired into the drivers' brain (future Bluetooth application?), there is no way for the current and near term future crop of automatic transmissions to offer me as much control as I currently get from an "Old Tech" manual gearbox with a true clutch pedal.

    Obviously I'm in the extreme minority when it comes to my preference for a transmission; fortunately there are apparently still some folks at BMW that are members of that same minority. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The automatic's days are numbered.

    I now know this is not just marketing crapola.

    How do I know?

    Well, when the driving instructors at the BMW school -- all of whom are over 40 (or have lived hard lives) and all of whom are very skilled in driving sticks -- admit to INCREASED control with an automatic. . . .

    My "auto never" wife (with me formerly "auto never" in tow), asked the driving instructors why the "change of attitude with respect to autos."

    The reason appears to be something like this:

    o the currently available crop of auto transmissions are "the best ever" (no new news there, but to go from poor to fair would hardly be what I suspect was meant by that particular comment.)

    o the "losses" previously attributable to automatic transmissions have been virtually banned in the newest transmissions(one has to assume the lost of power and perhaps even the loss of control Shipo discusses -- indeed some of the auto transmissions actually have identical 0 -100kph times as the stick shift versions even though the automatics have taller final drive ratios.)

    These above two reasons, perfectly valid and probably demonstrable as true, don't do it for me.

    But. . .

    o "to have optimum or maximum control of a vehicle you must keep both hands on the steering wheel and you must have a foot for every pedal or pedals designed for heel and toe -- and well, none of them anymore are really thusly designed." "Only with an automatic can you, with today's engine's and transmissions, maintain maximum control of the vehicle; control you need to better your times, help you avoid accidents and make driving under all conditions as smooth as possible."

    That one. . .gave us BOTH pause.

    Here is the another one, said upon our ascent up the off road trail up the mountain: "a stick shift has its greatest value for 'off roading' -- indeed, Hill Descent Control, as is on the BMW's you are driving, is meant to imitate a manual transmission by simply applying the brakes."

    Go into car / truck dealerships -- the vehicles that even want to lay claim to being "off road" capable are virtually never manual shift. The pickup trucks are virtually never stick shift, and so on. The remaining cars that are offered with sticks are hard to actually find so equipped unless you are willing to order them.

    True, BMW, Porsche and some Audi and other brands (here and there) may offer a manual shift car -- good luck trying to find one to test drive.

    The stick shift may die for reasons other than what our instructor said makes the drivers who choose autos (when there is a choice) have increased/improved control, i.e.; but, for two formerly and virtually "over my dead body" stick vs automatic drivers, the demonstration on the track does seem to point to today's automatics contribution to improved control.

    I haven't entirely swallowed the kool-aid, but I did take a drink.

    Yes, Shipo we both are in a tiny minority, but, I think now, I am of the mind that you are really in, as you say, the extreme minority.

    Knowing how you feel about AWD, I won't lay their line about "why AWD" (in BMW's, at least) gives them an "unfair" advantage over the same car with RWD.

    I save that revelation for another time.

    Suffice it to say, I completely was blown away that these guys would actually state that "higher performance" was the unintended and UNEXPECTED consequence of adding AWD to virtually the entire BMW line up. Indeed, they claimed that higher, better, longer, shorter, sharper, faster, quicker, safer (pick the modifier for the appropriate maneuver) driving without any increase in driver skill would be realized simply by driving a 530xi over a 530i.

    WOW. Maybe, just maybe, that means that AWD is more forgiving or masks a driver's deficiencies. Even if the latter point is true, that would still be a desirable trait one would imagine.

    I can't believe it myself, and I actually attempted to play devil's advocate (imitation Shipo) when the subject of 2WD (RWD) vs AWD was brought up.

    This, for a later time. :surprise:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Once upon a time I posted that if I was to ever find out that the last ELLPS/LPS with a stick was going to cease production (or at least cease being sold here in the U.S.A.) that I would run out and buy several so as to have a stick available to my cold dead hand (as it were).

    I agree.

    God-forbid if future BMWs are not offered with manual and if that does happen then I will keep our manual BMW touring and my soon to be BMW335i sedan for my posterity to enjoy at some future date.

    Shipo, did you notice how manual trannies are slowly beginning to vanish from the BMW prodcut-line?

    The new and upcoming BMW X5 3.0 will no longer be offered with a manual tranny and the BMW M6 will have no stick. It appears the future of BMW is already written in various tea leaves and that future aint too pretty. The crystal ball is clear and I dont see many sticks in future BMWs. :cry:
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    I don't follow racing religiously, but aren't most of the winners with automatics? I would think that being in the right gear at the right time would be very important to them (money prizes!), and if they thought a manual was better for control and durability, they'd use that.

    Commuting anywhere around most major cities in the USA ends up being a stop and go affair. All of my cars until recently have been manuals, and in the boonies, they are fun, but for practical use...my left leg was just getting more of a workout than I liked - it basically ruined any subsequent pleasure that might have been obtained.

    While not as nice, the manumatic suffices, and really shines in those ten-mile parking lots they call freeways or highways, depending on which coast you live on.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Hey hey, we'll have no tears, not on my watch. ;-) Sticks will be around forever, they will never die. Did the sailboat die because there are motorboats? 9 out of 10 Porsches sold are with sticks. The Z06 and Viper are MT. Real sport nut jobs love stick and is necessary for car companies who portray sport and offer sport. Do soccer moms on cell phones have a need for stick in a X5?

    BTW, no Porsche/DSG rants. If stick dies, Porsche dies, ain't happening.

    One more thing. Before anyone starts selling safety with auto transmissions, they should first start wearing a helmet while driving. And while we're on the subject I think loafers should be banned. Shoes with ties are definitely safer. You don't have to be a genius to figure this out.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Sticks -- in BMW's -- days are numbered. Please do not think, despite what my driving instructors said, that I look forward to this day.

    Quite the contrary.

    On the other hand, I am coming to appreciate what even the 6 speed step and tip tronics are capable of.

    The transmissions in the pipeline are, most likely, 6+ speed, DSG (yep, like or advancements of Audis) units.

    Moreover, every Audi, BMW and Mercedes will either come with or offer AWD -- and even those that offer it will be kept in stock over non AWD versions.

    When you have your team of racers, now instructors on your payroll, shuttling between Germany and America (for training on current and upcoming products) and they are touting the "reasons" for Auto-transmissions and AWD -- and then "proving" it by improving their lap times, their ability to control and showing off the increased "go anywhere, anytime" capabilities that accompany such technologically equipped vehicles, well I would say it is a matter of when, not if, anymore.

    I'm going to live with it, rather than live without new German (and even perhaps other countries') upcoming generations of cars.

    :surprise:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I have to say - sadly - that I think sticks days are numbered as well. Mebbe Porches and other near exotic to exotic vehicles won't succumb, but the ordinary street vehicles are already succumbing to the combination of drivers' unwillingness to even try it and manufacturers unwillingness to provide it (because so few will buy it because so few will even try it).

    And I haven't thought of Genesis in years - thanks for that! (That's who did that song, isn't it?) ;)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well this lament is nothing new. It's not like stick shifts ruled the world in 1976. I think the biggest threat to performance cars is safety awareness which can be taken to the nth degree and ultimately render performance cars illegal for the street. Run-flat tires are another stone in the shoe. And of course BMW just had to be on the "leading edge" of this thanks to their new-age hubris. It's ironic how the safety mission coexists with the hp wars.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Selling England by the Pound -- Genesis.

    You win the cupie doll, Pat!

    Here in Cincinnati, the new generation of BMW's with that spanky new "35" twin turbo engine are rolling out -- at this point, the 335 sedan and coupes are RWD, but already the 328 is offered with AWD and next year the X drive option will be added for about $1900.

    It promises to be a brisk seller. Almost all, certainly, will be automatics. Try finding a stick to test drive.

    The 7 series (upcoming gen) too will be offered with AWD.

    Mercedes 4Matics are exclusively automatics.

    Some of the Audis can still be had with AWD, sport packages (that actually do change the suspension settings) AND stick shifts.

    But when the S4 sitting on the showroom floor is just as likely to be an auto as a stick, well, even that is indicative of American's (primarily) unwillingness to "eat beets" (or fill in the blank.)

    A friend of mine went to the salad bar at Ruby's one day and they had just put out a fresh container of small round beets. I said, "wow, fresh beets on my salad will be deelish." My friend said, "yeccchhh! beets." I said, "I didn't know you hated beets so much." He replied, "they're terrible, I've never had one, but I just know they're nasty tasting."

    Whattya gonna do?

    My current phrase -- and more than a phrase it is a LAMENT -- is, "good is the enemy of great."

    To me, even though I am starting to actually believe the automatic COULD be superior to the manual, there is one thing the stick does better FOR SURE: it INCREASES driving pleasure.

    I am now somewhat at odds with Shipo in that I do see "the case" for the argument that the auto equipped BMW's will permit, allow and encourage better, improved, & MORE control, performance and safety. Yet, I still think stick shifts are more involving and fun than ANY automatic.

    I have been a screaming voice in the wilderness for a long time. I saw Audis go from 90% stick to 75% stick to 50% stick to 90% auto over a period of time commencing in 1976 through today.

    My favorite car of all time was a 1995 S6. But, the best car I have ever had is my current all optioned 2005 A6 3.2.

    If I could have ONLY one of these two cars and could pick from the two of them, I would, for features and safety reasons pick my current car. Hands down, however, the S6 was more fun -- and I'll have to nominate the stick shift that it came with as the main contributor to that.

    Here's a list of [our] cars -- most of them sticks:

    1978 Audi 5000
    1979 Audi Fox GTI
    1982 4000 (with: funny upshift indicator on the dashboard)
    1984 4000S
    1984 Coupe
    1986 4000CS quattro (with the juiced up 5 cylinder engine)
    1986 Coupe (king of the hill)
    1987 5000CS turbo quattro
    1988 80 quattro sport
    1988 BMW 325ix (all wheel drive)
    1990 100 (automatic)
    1990 Coupe (with the 20V 5 cylinder engine)
    1991 100 quattro
    1992 100S
    1993 100S (pearl white)
    1993 90S quattro
    1994 90S quattro sport
    1995 S6 (what a blast to drive this "emerald green pearl with white leather sport seats" and the cool factory phone beauty)
    1996 A4 2.8
    1998 A4 2.8 (190 HP)
    1997 A8 4.2 w/S8 suspension upgrade (auto, of course)
    1999 A6 2.8 quattro (automatic)
    2000 TT quattro 180
    2000 A6 4.2 (automatic)
    2001 A6 4.2 sport (ditto)
    2001 TT 225
    2003 allroad 2.7T (6 speed to be clear)
    2003 TT 225
    2005 A6 3.2 (automatic)
    2005 BMW X3 3.0 (stick shift)

    ===========

    Twenty eight Audis in all. Two BMW's.

    ===========

    I am pretty certain we have had our last stick shift. If you can find an upcoming BMW 5X with a stick -- and you are so inclined to "eat beets" -- you'd better buy it, cause it is a dying breed, or perhaps it is already extinct and no one bothered to tell it yet.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I like beets AND stick shifts! (And Genesis!) :P
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    o the "losses" previously attributable to automatic transmissions have been virtually banned in the newest transmissions(one has to assume the lost of power and perhaps even the loss of control Shipo discusses -- indeed some of the auto transmissions actually have identical 0 -100kph times as the stick shift versions even though the automatics have taller final drive ratios.)

    Actually, according to Porsche, the tip-auto 911 Turbo will outrun the stick to 60. The reason being that with the auto, you can brake-torque to 3,000rpm, spooling up the turbos before launch. The stick will not survive clutch drops at similar rpms.
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    I learned to drive a stick on a brand new 78 Audi 5000S. I was supposed to be driving it from Virginia to Pennsylvania for a DX (dealer exchange), and I had been assured that it would be an automatic because I didn't know how to drive a stick. I was all of 20 years old.

    But when I got there and freaked out because it had that third pedal, the dealer said no problem and took me out to teach me how to drive it. I got about ten minutes in rush hour traffic on a six-lane divided highway, and then he said bye bye and I took off for PA. The car I drove back was another (5000s) stick, too, but by then it didn't matter. I was hooked.

    All my cars since then have been 5 speeds--two Celicas, an ES 300, and my 530i spt. I am firmly in Shipo's camp--if it doesn't have a stick, I won't even consider it. I rode in my friend's 545 and listened to him rave about the paddle shifters, but after watching him play with them for five minutes or so, I was bored. It's like watching a movie of a bike ride along some gorgeous trail somewhere while you pedal on a stationary bike. What's the point? Just give me the real thing.

    Then there's rocking out of a slippery spot. Can even the new-improved-nothing-like-their-predecessors automatics equal a stick when it comes to that?

    I won't even mention that the more moving parts there are the more likely something will break.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    9 out of 10 Porsches sold are with sticks. The Z06 and Viper are MT. Real sport nut jobs love stick and is necessary for car companies who portray sport and offer sport.

    Those are reassuring stats. Or maybe not?

    I think BMW and Audi may find your stats very interesting and only offer their sticks to buyers who are willing to open their wallets a bit further for manual versions of M Series and Audi S and RS models. The plain vanilla BMWs and Audis will soon be offered solely with two pedals. If a person wants a stick then BMW and Audi will graciously offer that person a M series or RS for a mere $20k to $30K more.

    Oh yeah I know the M series and S/RS models are far better in every sense of the word and worth that price over their more plain siblings. You are not only paying for the stick you are also paying for improved performance and handling dynamics . Unfortunatley in that case driving a car with a stick will become far more elitist while the common man will just have to live the rest of his life with automatics. A sad fate indeed for most of mankind(especially the portion that loves sticks) :sick:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Actually, according to Porsche, the tip-auto 911 Turbo will outrun the stick to 60. The reason being that with the auto, you can brake-torque to 3,000rpm, spooling up the turbos before launch. The stick will not survive clutch drops at similar rpms.

    Is it all about getting to the finish line fastest? Did not Schumacher himself say how much he prefers driving manual cars? Does not the added concentration involved with a third pedal and the "feeling of being one with the road" count for anything?

    Is it possible for humans to enjoy chess with the knowledge that a IBM supercomputer will beat the greatest chess master in the world? Ofcourse it is. Similarily does the enjoyment of driving manual become pointless because cars with auto trannies can outrace cars with manual trannies? Ofcourse not.

    There is definitely a lot to be said about shifting your own gears. If you've never done it before then you will never understand what I mean.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    There is definitely a lot to be said about shifting your own gears. If you've never done it before then you will never understand what I mean.

    I've "rowed my own" in plenty of cars. Probably the most notable was my first British sports car, my '62 Austin Healey 3000. It had a double-clutch four-speed manual with a dash mounted switch for OD in 3rd and 4th. Definitely the most unforgiving transmission I've ever used. You either do it the way it wants, or you walk, literally. There was definitely satisfaction in hammering home the 3rd > 2nd downshift in that car, as nobody else could do it the first time unless they were a Healey driver.

    I definitely would not have bought the car though if it was going to be a daily driver. I still think driving a stick is fun, but with traffic the way it is now rather than 30 years ago, I just don't think the positives of owning a MT car would outweigh the negatives. Just MO. On the other hand, I think SMGs (especially Audi's) rock. If you don't feel like shifting for yourself, you dont have to. With a MT, your SOL.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    This puts me in the minority here, I've learned. I choose to shift my own gears. That puts me into a miniscule fraction of that minority. Oh, and I demand rear-wheel drive.

    BMW, G35, CTS & the C230 still offer me what I want. The fact that I choose to own my vehicle, regardless of warranty, means I care how much things cost to fix. Manuals rarely break, & when they do, they cost less to fix. Yeah, I know, who cares?

    Plus which, I can skip gears, engage the clutch slowly or not so slowly, or not at all, given the situation (which may not be what it was 0.5 seconds earlier).

    It's clear 3-7 of you understand what I'm saying & the rest couldn't care less. When BMW & Nissan stop selling manuals, I guess I'll go back to Miatas, or something else -- I'll give up the luxury long before I'll give up the sport.

    For me, this is the ultimate deal-breaker. I bought the car I've got only because it came with a manual. Bad example (they quit making the whole thing, manual or otherwise) I realize, but I guess I can look forward to saving money if the only cars that come with manuals in the future are cheaper ones.

    My next car will probably be a BMW 3-series, within the next year or two. It'll have a manual. After that, we'll see.

    The present car will turn 100K miles this week & it certainly hasn't been a maintenance nightmare. The next one won't be either, because it'll have only the minimum of options & a manual.

    KISS.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Dewey, hang in there. I wasn’t suggesting that you should be content to spend an additional $30K on a car to get three pedals. What I’m saying is that the manual transmission is still considerably represented. As such the influence is pretty healthy and if BMW plans to sustain its ultimate driving machine image it had better stick with the stick. Not only is it expected by the small percentage of their customers but also by the press who propagate that image. BMW turning into Lexus? Nah, I refuse to hear it.

    Now if you really want to read something hilarious about MTs check this out and try not to get depressed. This is really funny:

    Death to The Stick Shift

    Rage, rage against the dying of the light!

    ;-)
  • purplem46purplem46 Member Posts: 54
    Out of all the posters here, whether you use standard shift or some amalgam of auto shift: Who actually runs there cars on the track? Who has run their respective cars to the limits with sweaty palms? I'm interested in hearing from the hard core of the group. No offense to the family car group, but I'd like to hear opinions from those who really like to drive?
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    LOLOL! Thanks for a sorely needed (by me, anyway) bit of levity.
  • mbbrooksmbbrooks Member Posts: 16
    I have a '96 Porsche 993 with a six speed manual and a BMW R1100RSL with a five speed sequential gear box. Both are great on a early weekend morning or out in the boonies. The Porsche has seen its share of PCA track days. I avoid getting caught in traffic in either.

    There is great satisfaction to be gained by the perfect upshift and even more by as perfect as possible downshift. In my view you really do have more control over the car. and I really could not imagine taking the E350 Sport or not to a track day.

    I think the real reason that sticks are on the endangered list is that some of the "autos" that allow you to change gears manually as you like give you 80% of the control you have with a stick but when you need a full auto you have it. The MB 7 speed is remarkably amenable to playing manual and unlike some it will not auto shift when it is not happy with what you are doing. Not that I plan on doing any track days with it.

    If I had to live with one vehicle, my painful reality is that it would have to be an auto. Fortunatly autos are still very rare on motorcycles so they remain a viable alternative in addition to being the ultimate experience in vehicle dynamics if you are so inclined.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Your unwillingness to fight for an LPS car with a stick shift is part and parcel of the reason(s) they will very soon be gone altogether.

    It is NOT you alone, of course. I have simply grown weary and/or broke trying to keep the stick alive.

    With some tongue in cheek, I say I have put hundreds of thousands of dollars into buying/leasing stick shift cars to no avail.

    Why? Cause the rest of the buying public has simply refused to do the same thing, regardless of the scale of the purchases.

    When I went to Ohio's largest BMW dealer today to test drive the new X3, I found that there were three in stock -- and not a one with a stick.

    One 335 coupe did have a stick. It was damn near the only car on the lot with a stick. This at a dealer that sells some 1200+ cars per year in a city with two Bimmer franchises.

    Other than the one 335 and my wife's X3, I can't remember the last time I saw a BMW with a stick shift.

    Folks around here must have tons of disposable income, for the number of 5 series that seems to be sold here defies my understanding of our socio-economic makeup.

    Try finding a manual 5er.

    True there are a few die hards, but even so, it would appear none of us -- and I hereby as of now include myself -- are willing to put out the kind of money that would get a manufacturer's attention.

    I did my part, for nearly 30 years -- let's see the rest of you shiftless never folks start ponying up the bucks and demanding stick shifts.

    When you reach -- pick a number -- $400,000 in stick shift cars (in a reasonable period of time), and if you all (or at least 51%) do this, well maybe, just maybe the stick can be saved.

    We have met the enemy and it is us.

    For me, at least, the good news is that the newest autos are quite good, the DSG's are better still and the instructors at the BMW school have given me pause to consider two hands on the wheel (at all times) gives the maximum control.

    Yet, somehow, nothing satisfies quite like BEEF, er, stick shifts.

    Write your Congressperson, write your dealer, write the manufacturer and tell them you want a stick shift.

    Good luck unless you are willing to spend money to make this happen.

    It just isn't happening is the bottom line.

    It was great while it lasted.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    One 335 coupe did have a stick. It was damn near the only car on the lot with a stick. This at a dealer that sells some 1200+ cars per year in a city with two Bimmer franchises.

    While there may not be many sticks on the lot, I think the stick will remain at least an option in the entry-lux class for the foreseeable future. I'm sure there are probably 0-1 TL Type S MTs on the lot, but you can get one. Same goes for the G35 sedan. There must be a lot more people interested in a 3300lb. MT car than a 4000lb. MT car.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    That Death to the Stick Shift article reminds me of a recent conversation I had with someone who religiously buys new cars every two to three years. Such cars as BMW, Audis, Acuras and Infinitis. He told me that he finds Benzes and Lexuses not sporty enough.

    You would honestly think a fellow like that would be sympathetic to the need for having sticks in performance cars? Nope not at all. This is what he asked me one day:

    "You know I dont understand you? Why are you willing to spend money on BMWs and not even spend money on such a low priced option as a automatic transmission?
    The last time I bought a manual was in the 70s and that was because I could not afford automatic"


    Apparently the atitude above is prevalent among all car buyers including luxury performance sedan buyers.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    When BMW & Nissan stop selling manuals, I guess I'll go back to Miatas, or something else -- I'll give up the luxury long before I'll give up the sport.

    I read somewhere that Nissan intends to eliminate the manual option soon on its Versa . They want to spread CVT throughout their product-lines.

    In other words the stick battle is a two front battle. Luxury cars from the top end and economy cars from the bottom end will gradually become more stick-less as the years go by. :(
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    The first stick-shift car I drove at a racetrack was a 1967 Pontiac GTO. These were quarter-mile drag races.

    I had a 1984 Jeep CJ-7 with a stick. I was living in a Rocky Mtn state. We often drove through areas where someone gets out and walks in front of the vehicle as you drive over uneven terrain and rocks large enough to take the bottom off, and you don’t want to stall out. On a couple of occasions, this took us to an open area at the foot of a steep (maybe 35 to 40 degree slope). Driving through the gears up and back down such slopes vindicated my father for any of his annoying comments when he was teaching me to drive the ‘57 column shift chevy he was passing along to me in 1966.

    I also had a chance, just one afternoon in the late 1980s, to drive a one quarter-hour leg of a charity “rally” (softest imaginable meaning of that word) event in an Audi Quattro Sport -- time in which a wealthy collector had put up as an auction item. That was something.

    On a less dramatic note, I drove a five speed Honda Accord around the hills and crowded highways of Seattle and San Francisco is the early 1990s. Then I retired from stick shifts and was delighted when, in the later 1990s, I discovered manufacturers equipping cars with tip-tronics which I like enough in that they stave off the feeling that cars are just basic transportation. I even find that, as auto engineers compete to develop their half-stick manu-matics, it’s enjoyable to compare one to another, the way we used to compare the sticks in GTOs and Dodge Hemis and Chevy Super Sports.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Apparently the atitude above is prevalent among all car buyers including luxury performance sedan buyers.

    Pardon my very bad Anglish. But all is a bit too inclusive ,although it does feel that way.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Well, my next car, with its manual transmission, RWD & some lux features (BMW 3 or G3X or ??) may be (as was said years ago where I grew up) my "last look at granny."

    As I mentioned earlier, when the lux cars drop the manual, I'll drop lux cars. I can finally afford nice cars, but if they don't have a manual. . .

    I'm pushing 60, and BMW, Merc, Infiniti & Cadillac are still offering manuals. With luck, I'll die before the manual does. Said more positively, the manual will live much longer than I do.

    Or not.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm pushing 60, and BMW, Merc, Infiniti & Cadillac are still offering manuals. With luck, I'll die before the manual does. Said more positively, the manual will live much longer than I do.

    Don't be so negative. Even if the stick shift completely disappears from luxury autodom, which I dont think it will, there are plenty of great sports cars just over the horizon, and you can bet they will have MTs. There should be a new S2000, 350Z, and Supra by the end of the decade. BMW has the Z2 on the way, and there's always Porsche of course.
  • domenickamarcdomenickamarc Member Posts: 53
    I think the disappearance of the stick shift is part of a larger phenomenon, which, if it runs counter to your auto-desires (as it does mine), you’ll find utterly objectionable. This larger phenomenon is that the automobile has been redefined, in America, into an homogenized one-dimensional entity the most-loved characteristic of which is to be transparent -- like comfortable shoes that you forget you’re wearing.

    The automobile is no longer a modern-day horse. The point of selecting one is no longer to end up being excited by it and enjoying the relationship with it (as extension of body-in-motion -- like the horse once was), but to not be bothered by it. The pseudo-scientific use of statistics by CR and JDP has contributed to this by convincing us that we should feel foolish if we have to spend even a couple of days a year taking care of a car.

    The Japanese are sometimes lambasted by the shrinking cadre of American auto enthusiasts for playing the “buy one of ours and you’ll forget you even own a car” card, but, if they’re in bed with CR/JDP, it’s we who have brought them together and given them a home here -- a home they cannot find in their own country. As Business Week pointed out: “ With net profits of $10 billion, double-digit growth in the U.S., and GM's (GM) spot as the world's biggest automaker in sight, Toyota Motor (TM) President Katsuaki Watanabe has had little to complain about since succeeding Fujio Cho as the head of the Japanese automaker last June. Yet for all the great strides being taken by Toyota, Watanabe must be at least a little disheartened by the performance of the upmarket Lexus brand in Japan. The reason? Since the Lexus marque first went on sale in Japan last August, sales have hardly set the world afire (see BW Online, 7/11/05, "Lexus to the Rescue"). Through Dec. 31, only 10,300 Lexus were sold in Japan -- considerably short of Toyota's target of 20,000. What's more, in 2006 the carmaker is only expecting to sell 40,000 Lexus -- still off the the 50,000-60,000 annual target Toyota had mentioned last year.” Nisssan doesn’t even market the Infiniti line in Japan. And it's not because the Japanese are not buying LPS vehicles: "One place where sales are up is the luxury sector, but that's where Japanese brands are weakest. Through July this year, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, and Porsche registered increases in sales of 10% or higher."

    I think the stick-shift has been a victim of this same American mind-set. I’d call it a car-as-appliance phenomenon, but people still lust after sub-zero refrigerators even though CR indicates they require repairs about three times as often as Kenmores. I got a used Porsche 356B in 1967 and drove it a few times a week for about ten years (still feel it was a disgrace to have ever sold it, but I needed the money). Got a used BMW 2002 a couple of years after that and kept it until 1988. I taught my oldest child to drive on that car. I keep a stick-shift car around and don’t feel suicidal when a clutch needs replacement. I don’t think manual transmissions will disappear anytime soon, maybe not completely at all, but I don’t feel anyone should buy one to support my habit. The bigger problem is not keeping the stick-shift alive in the U.S., but keeping alive (in a critical mass of buyers) the sense of the car as modern day horse (individual personality, enjoyable to care for, requiring skill to ride) rather than a buy-it-and-forget-it object.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Well said . . . and this reinforces: "we have met the enemy, and it is us." :cry:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Great post!
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Let me add to the chorus.

    Very nicely put.

    My '65 MGB, which required more maintenance than any vehicle I had before or since, gave me more pleasure than any of the rest of them either.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • dan339gdan339g Member Posts: 56
    Excellent post!

    Although, I find it interesting that the European's appear to have a very different attitude. During my recent travels in the UK on business, I stayed at hotels that seemed to attract a large number of LPS drivers as guests. During my completely random "peek in the window" poll, nearly all of the Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes I looked at were manuals (as were most of all the other cars.) I'm not so sure this is an indicator of driver preference so much as fuel economy, given the price of fuel is double that in the states but I do get the sense that driving is viewed as a more interactive experience for them.

    Another thing that strikes me relating to the US market is the "next generation" of LPS buyers more than likely never learned how to drive a stick. I know my younger siblings were never exposed, and as a result don't even consider them. It's hard to miss what you never had.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I have now spent a weekend with a new set of Pirelli Pzero Nero M+S UHP A/S (Z rated) tires in size 245 x 40 x 18" on my 2005 standard suspension A6 3.2 quattro.

    I spent 25k mls. with the OEM tires -- ContiProContact H rated Grand Touring A/S tires in the same size.

    From the day I picked up my new car, I wrote it was under-tired.

    I did mitigate this, somewhat, by almost immediately adding pounds to the tires and attempting to address the Audi's nose heaviness by inflating the tires +3 pounds on the front. I have settled on 39 pounds, front, 36 pounds rear.

    The combination of a 40 series tire with an H rating produces a suboptimal effect. The design and selection by Audi of THIS Grand Touring H rated A/S tire seems to have been for the benefit of what Americans must be perceived to want: i.e., smooth ride and low noise characteristics, low profile appearance and all temperature performance (with a tiny bit of snow traction thrown in for folks who, like me, live in climates that have moderate snowfall and rarely have sub 25 degree temps.)

    The Grand Touring tires would be ideal for long relatively high speed cruises on US Interstate highways. They are NOT so good when it comes to carving up a twisty road, however. The GT tires made the car seem, somewhat, like a boat. On an approach to a curve or turn the car seemed to turn in just a hair after the steering wheel was turned when the car was shod with the H rated GT tires. Not so with the apparently stiffer and stickier Pirelli's. Turn the wheel and the nose instantly goes in the direction you just told it to go.

    The difference is really noticeable on an uphill "S" curve at speeds about 50% higher than the sign indicates is the suggested speed. After I had almost 100 miles on the new shoes they seemed to make the car track up the hillside as the saying goes, "like it was on rails."

    These tires are -- at this point -- quieter than the outgoing Conti's (which still had 4/32" tread left.) They are smooth -- after about one mile's travel if they have been sitting in the garage overnight and, yes, they are slightly "firmer" in road feel almost as if the Contis were like a pair of gloves, insulating some of the road feel from the driver. The Pirellis are like taking the gloves off, with respect to tactile feel.

    The Tirerack rep suggested that even though the wear expectation numbers of these two tires is identical at 400, that there is no uniform standard. He added, the Pirellis probably will go to 3/32's at around 25,000+ miles, whereas the Contis would have probably made it to 30,000 with 3/32's left (2/32's is when it is mandatory to change the tires, BTW.) I paid $156 each (they are now $160) for these tires -- the Contis at the Tirerack were $202.

    I remember the days when Audis came ONLY with UHP or MAX performance Summer only tires. These tires often lasted fewer than 20,000 miles, became noisy after 12,000 - 15,000 and were downright dangerous in Winter. It seems "odd" that Audi (and now Pirelli) is willing to make products specifically for the US market yet will not permit a customer to buy what he wants (or at least may want.)

    Here is what is available and routinely comes on new Audi products.

    Brands: Continental, Dunlop, GoodYear, Michelin and Pirelli.

    Types: Summer only (usually Z rated, sometimes V rated) All Season (almost always H rated, sometimes V rated)

    Aspect Ratios: 55, 50, 45, 40, 35 (in sizes 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20")

    Never say never, but it is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to get a new Audi with UHP All Seasons, you take the car with UHP Summer tires or HP All Seasons (and the differences between these tire types is NOT AT ALL SUBTLE.)

    I know tires for the Summer and Winter are the "ideal" way to go. And, growing up NORTH of Dayton, Ohio, I was used to the annual ritual of the tire change. Moving south some 80 miles, to Cincinnati, after college, I have rarely seen a time (temp or precip) when a dedicated snow tire would provide any better "go in the snow" capability than a young set of all seasons "W" rated, perhaps on an AWD vehicle. Once, recently, Christmas 2004, we had ice on the Interstate highways. for two days -- thick ice. Perhaps studded snow tires on an SUV would have been good. For most of us, however, it just meant short trips for a day or two. The time before that, as I recall, was a one day level-1 snow day back in 1994. In other words, in this "neck of the woods" the UHP all season tire is a very small performance compromise and when compared with the H rated grand touring all season shoes Audi (and the other Germans and even Japanese) chooses, the handling differences are, to repeat, NOT AT ALL SUBTLE.

    In the same vein, I now have been behind the wheel of an S6 (I did NOT drive it.) It was right next to an SLine (with sport seats) A6. The sport seats in both seem virtually identical. The S6 looks a little "more purposeful" if you get my drift, but the A6 SLine (especially were it to have the 4.2 and if the owner were to spring for the S6 wheels) is also a very handsome piece of work (if you, like me, have grown tolerant of the Big-Mouth look.)

    Here is my plea: let me buy bits and pieces -- sell them to me at a profit -- of the SLine and S and even RS cars. Let me buy a new A6 SLine and NOT have to pay the dealer the after sale, accessory price for the S6's wheels. Let me pay for S6 brakes, assuming they really are a step up in stopping power, as they appear to be. Let me pay for the S6's steering wheel.

    Audi makes little splash with its subtle styling cues. Most folks would NOT know if your SLine was toting a V10 -- most wouldn't care. Audi has taken a philosophy of subtle cues (even on the RS cars) with respect to styling -- so what if I am willing to pay for the 19" S wheels, let me buy them, and let me specify them with UHP all season tires, if I wish. Let me order Misano Red, if I want without SLine, if I am so willing. Let me order the sport suspension without the SLine cosmetic treatment, etc.

    Let me order a white Audi with Premium Amaretto Colored Leather Sport seats -- don't only allow me to order these seats with optional paint colors. If I want a new Audi A4 convertible in white with a blue top, let me do so without some kind of "service" charge of $2,500.

    Most of all, let me pick from configurable features and options rather than forcing me to take packages -- but if I do opt for the package, incent me a couple bucks to spend more.

    Take my money please.

    Overall: tire report is a positive -- they do not transform the car into an S6. But, for those wanting the somewhat less firm ride of the standard suspension calibration but unwilling to give up the crisp turn in that the S treatment brings with it, well, let me specify (& add a buck) the characteristics of the tires that will come with my new $50,000+ daily driver.

    Even Burger King, lets you have it "your way" for pity's sake. :surprise:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yet for all the great strides being taken by Toyota, Watanabe must be at least a little disheartened by the performance of the upmarket Lexus brand in Japan. The reason? Since the Lexus marque first went on sale in Japan last August, sales have hardly set the world afire (see BW Online, 7/11/05, "Lexus to the Rescue"). Through Dec. 31, only 10,300 Lexus were sold in Japan -- considerably short of Toyota's target of 20,000. What's more, in 2006 the carmaker is only expecting to sell 40,000 Lexus -- still off the the 50,000-60,000 annual target Toyota had mentioned last year.” Nisssan doesn’t even market the Infiniti line in Japan. And it's not because the Japanese are not buying LPS vehicles: "One place where sales are up is the luxury sector, but that's where Japanese brands are weakest. Through July this year, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, and Porsche registered increases in sales of 10% or higher."

    The Japanese are like us, they want imports. No Lincoln or Cadillac is as impressive to (most) Americans than a Mercedes or BMW. The same is true in Japan, only its Lexus stuck being the "domestic choice".
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    FRANKFURT, May 20, 2005; Christiaan Hetzner writinfg for Reuters reported that Frank Winter probably has one of the most thankless jobs in the German car industry.

    Faced with the fiercest of competition, the head of Lexus Germany is not kidding himself that Toyota Motor Corp.'s (7203.T: Quote, Profile, Research) premium brand is poised to enjoy the same phenomenal success here that it has had in the United States.

    Lexus came out of nowhere to become the U.S.'s best-selling luxury marque for the past five years straight.

    Just as Lexus is pushing to establish itself as a global powerhouse in the luxury segment, domestic goliaths BMW , Mercedes-Benz, Audi (VOWG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) and Porsche continue to crowd it out of the largest car market in Europe and potentially the most demanding in the world.

    Last year Lexus eked out a marginal existence in Germany, selling just 2,600 vehicles. It expects over 3,000 this year -- hardly something that would leave home-grown rivals quaking in their boots.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    For Lexus to do well in Germany, they need more than just one diesel engine in one car. They need to take the GS back to the drawing board, and they need to build the LF-X, and make it fun to drive.
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