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1. Toyota is on the way to world domination. Extremely impressive company, with a deep commitment to performance, safety, and innovation. They so outclassed the others that everyone was deferring to them on all the tough questions.
2. Nissan a close 2nd, but they are more skewed toward performance. They showed some slides of the upcoming Skyline, but were also very guarded and declined to answer questions about that car. The focus of the meeting was on improving auto repair and safety, so we did discuss the safety innovations and repair enhancements that are coming on the next GT-R. From what I could see on the slides, the Skyline will look pretty much like the car shown in Tokyo. Not positive, but it looks like the car will have a blend of aluminum and high strength steel.
3. Honda is doing well, but the RL (Legend) is also selling poorly in Japan. "Too high price" is what they said, but its also clear that in Japan, the Nissan Fuga (or Infiniti M) is easily outselling the RL. The domestic Fuga is a different car from the M....V6 only, with a 2.5GT leading the pack. You can also get it with fabric. The RL and Legend are identical worldwide, with the same SH-AWD and V6 drivetrain. Nissan has chosen to differentiate, and are winning, while Honda is offering the same car with similar slow results. I asked them if the next TL (which is not sold in Japan) will have SH-AWD. The guy smiled, but wouldn't answer. "Depends on price point" was what he said. Infiniti is coming to Japan by 2010, but I sense they're watching Lexus and Acura in 2008.
4. Lexus is selling very slowly in Japan. Only the LS/GS/IS/convertible are sold there. The LS is very impressive. No SUVs, except what's sold under Toyota nameplate. Seems the truck-based SUV will fade away.
5. The safety innovations in Japan are very impressive. They are building an entire infrastructure of on-road monitors and cameras to hard-wire integrated safety systems to reduce accidents. They seem serious about "eliminating accidents/casualties within 10 years." Since average speeds are much lower in Japan, it's doable over there. Many Japanese also install aftermarket navi and telematics, so that will help them mainline telematic safety systems.
6. They are testing a variety of alternative fuels. Honda talked about their hydrogen cars, and how they will be available in 2-4 years on a mass market basis. They do NOT believe in ethanol. They are committed to developing fuels that are "not food-based." It makes sense that fuels should not compete with food production since that will inject volatility in food prices. All 4 companies will expand diesel options, so that should bode well for the US market. All are working on alternatives to fossil fuel and are acting like it's a matter of time/cost. I'd be concerned if I were Saudi Arabia.
7. Reducing whiplash injuries will be a major focus in the next generation of cars. Active head restraints combined with increasingly sophisticated (active/passive)mitigation systems can be expected. Toyota is several steps ahead, perhaps witnessed by what's already available on the current Lexus lineup. Seems we can expect more of this, at least in the Japanese market. Some of this will trickle into US and European markets.
8. The manual transmission is undergoing a slow death in Japan also. Very sad to see this, but it's inevitable. Even their smallest cars are almost all slushboxes now. They're more efficient and deliver better fuel economy.
9. Finally, the sushi is incredible over there. And the beers rival what I had in Germany. But the steaks still rule in Chicago.
cdpinhead, thanks for asking about that. I like the A6 3.2 Quattro S-Line very much. Two months and 2500 miles post-purchase, I find it a pleasure to look at, and engaging and enlivening to drive. The road-hugging ability of quattro still astonishes me.
The interior was my favorite when I was trying out different cars and still feels like being in a personal room you might have in a home and which you always feel is just right.
The engine (to which the transmission keeps the driver in intimate relationship) is a delightful piece of engineering. The drivetrain and suspension provide a tight, confidence-enhancing drive, quiet without being insulating from the road, and very smooth.
All that, and, even with engine still breaking itself in, I've averaged 21-22 mpg in commuting and city driving, up to 24 mpg when I've driven a long stretch on open highway.
Happy ending to story that, as you are recalling, started out like a Lemony Snicket novel.
Close 3rd, actually. They just lost their number 2 spot to Honda. Other than the Legend, Honda is seeing healthy gains while Nissan is in for more declines, both here and in Japan. The GT-R is great, but what else do they have?
Reducing whiplash injuries will be a major focus in the next generation of cars. Active head restraints combined with increasingly sophisticated (active/passive)mitigation systems can be expected. Toyota is several steps ahead, perhaps witnessed by what's already available on the current Lexus lineup. Seems we can expect more of this, at least in the Japanese market. Some of this will trickle into US and European markets.
Its nice to see Japan finally get serious about this issue. Japanese cars usually get less than impressive scores in IIHS and Euro-NCAP head restraint tests. Better than the domestics, but thats not saying much. Its certainly taken them long enough.
Nissan and Honda are different companies, philosophically. The former relies much more on cars/trucks, while a large part of Honda's presentation dealt with active and passive motorcycle safety, developing a new "family" of robots and dummies resembling humans, and comprehensive safety systems in ALL of their models. It's fascinating how different these companies are, yet they also work together and cooperate toward truly joint solutions. So different from US society and how we run our companies.
Honda's focus is on smaller powerplants with fewer cylinders/higher RPM, with cars like the Fit being a huge success. Nissan has larger displacement models (Crown, Laurel, Gloria, etc.) with higher HP/torque. You're right that the GT-R is their halo car, but they have more models with large powerplants (I assume off the VQ architecture). Hence, my shaky description that they skew to a performance philosophy.
Mazda talked about rotaries and innovative designs (RX7, 8, and Miata), and they showed some interesting small cars not sold in the U.S. They see themselves as more of a boutique brand. They are also concerned about the state of Ford, given their significant alliance.
The Japanese engineers spent a lot of time defending themselves on the head restraints by suggesting that their solutions are more integrated with a "geek" factor--laser guided collision avoidance (front and rear), different versions of head-up displays and night vision technology, computer-controlled warning systems and stability control, in-car monitoring of the driver, creating ambience that keeps drivers awake, external traffic control/pedestrian identification monitoring (little bit Big Brother, but it all makes sense), real time in-car messaging about accident avoidance, better tires (ie: no inflation?), designing safety while reducing front/rear overhangs, etc. Just a grab bag of cool stuff. But at the end, they also conceded that head restraints will improve, and that the ultimate safety solutions will have to be balanced with what consumers are willing to pay, along with recognizing styling considerations.
I asked them if Mitsubishi and Suzuki will remain in the US mkt, and they were uncomfortable answering it. But the big 4 clearly understand that the smaller 2 are in a precarious position, especially Mitsubishi Motors.
And acceptance that the Koreans and Chinese will have a major impact in the next 2 decades. Likely at the expense of US and European companies.
They also had a bunch of older cars on display. I had not seen a Toyota 2000GT up close and in person before. Just like the one in "You Only Live Twice." I even got to sit in it, although I didn't fit. Very cool.
I didn't think Suzuki was in bad shape, at least not enough for them to consider leaving the US market. I don't know anything about how profitable (or unprofitable) they are, but I'm pretty sure Suzuki sales are up, unlike Mitsubishi's. Isuzu is the one whose place in this market is literally hanging by a thread. Were they even mentioned?
And acceptance that the Koreans and Chinese will have a major impact in the next 2 decades. Likely at the expense of US and European companies.
Korean and Chinese cars will most likely be much more of a threat to Japan in Europe, where they have a much smaller market share, than here in the US. Europe already has multiple Korean companies competing rather than just one, and they are supposed to get Chinese cars much earlier than we are.
They also had a bunch of older cars on display. I had not seen a Toyota 2000GT up close and in person before. Just like the one in "You Only Live Twice." I even got to sit in it, although I didn't fit. Very cool.
Now I'm jealous!
They did talk about the Fairlady/350Z/Infiniti G coupe. No pictures of unreleased iterations, but this platform is a global success and may be more of a performance halo car than the expensive GT-R.
Isuzu wasn't discussed at all. To be honest, I saw very few Isuzu's in Japan, other than commercial trucks. Aren't they a partner with Subaru/Fuji Industries? There were lots of Subarus in Japan, with more focus on high performance and less on LL Bean. They seem to have carved out a "Japanese Audi" niche with lots of cool wagons.
I was shocked they even let me touch the 2000GT. White with black interior. But it was tiny inside.
That does make sense, Nissan's signature engine is a V6 and they've had a 3.5L 250hp+ version of it since 2002. The old Legend\RL 3.5L dates back much further than that, but it never had much power considering its size. Honda has only just recently pushed into the 280hp+ level with their V6s, other than in the NSX of course.
I'm not really surprised there was no information about the next Q. The Japanese auto companies are very good at keeping secrets, I get the feeling that "leaked" info gets out because they've let it out on purpose. The redesigned Lexus SC and the new JX are due around the same time, but you'll notice there's pretty much zero info on them as well.
Some sort of cooperation may have been happening when Isuzu and Subaru were both under the GM umbrella. They never shared any platforms or engines that I know of. The only thing Isuzu has left in the US market is a rebadge of the Colorado\Canyon.
Its annoying that Subaru still refuses to bring most of their performance models to the US market. Our Legacy "Spec.B" is a very watered down version of what they have there, same thing with the WRX STi. The new Evo IX FQ360 is capable of chasing a 911 Turbo on a track, but we get none of the hot versions of that car as well.
Audi A6 - 844
BMW 5-Series - 4,398
Infiniti M - 1,986
Lexus GS - 1,997
Don't know MB or Caddy
Ouch! What happened to Audi this last month? I thought they were done losing to the RL.
Acura RL Year-to-date sales = 10,068 (down 33% from 2005)
A6 appears to be done losing to the RL.
E-Class - 4,895
STS - (couldn't find this one yet)
S-Type - 314
M
Source
A little off topic, but GM really does give a lot of information on their corporate site. I didn't know the Corvette sold as well as it does, they're on track to sell like 36K of them this year! Not sure what is going on with Saab, but their sales were up 98 percent(!) for Oct 06' compared to Oct 05'. It looks there are no Oldsmobiles anywhere in a America at this point, they're finally dead! The old-school Caddy DTS is still Cadillac's best selling model.
M
Must be that new 2.8L turbo V6 for the 9-3. I can't imagine that the facelift they gave to the geriatric 9-5 is fooling anybody, at least not the kind of people who buy Saabs. The 9-2X was a dud, and if the 9-7X had any initial success, the party must surely be over by now.
Because of SH-AWD weight, RL is already sluggish with the big 3.5 engine. A smaller engine for Japan wouldn't do, plus Honda's engines tend to be low on torque. Lack of torque and excess weight is not good combination. Those are two of the problems RL has.
What Audi does is offer FWD/AWD on all its cars. I think A6's in USA are all AWD, but can be FWD in other countries. Acura might consider doing the same thing.
Making FWD optional might save 200lbs or so and improve acceleration a bit, depending on the available grip. It also will make torque steer and massive understeer a big problem. I don't think the positives outweigh the negatives.
Like Lexusguy said, going FWD presents its compromises. On the positive side, in addition to less weight, it also allows you to lower your transaction costs. And maybe offer a little more interior spacing. But torque steer is a potential deal killer with LPS cars unless managed with limited slip and electronic controls. But the more you inject the latter controls, the less steering feel and positive road handling.
Bottom line, there is no good alternative to RWD, other than perhaps AWD.
.
But wait -- BMW has a 300HP 3 liter 6 and it sure makes that 5 series sweeeeet. Oh wait, it is available only in a 3 series sedan and coupe.
And what's up with Audi?
You got your 4 your 6 and your 8 and even your Veee-ten (and in the A6 in the US anyway only the "top o' the line" 255 6 and on up is imported.) The "3.2" FSI engine would certainly benefit from a mild bi-turbo blowing ever so gently, wouldn't it?
Man, that engine would easily crank out 300 horses and pry-bar bending torque meanwhile sipping fuel.
Look what has been done with the 2.0TFSI -- what is it now, 265HP, up from 200. Hmmm, now let's see, hey -- thats more than a 30% improvement. If the same were done to the Audi V6, carry the 3, hmmmm, dang! 331 HP. They'd have to do what BMW has reportedly done to their "335", and that is tone down the power to 300 to not provide too much competition for the V8.
Now, having said this and wondering if the issue with the Acura, which even with the "restating" of the HP is able to better 255HP -- what is all this brouhaha about?
I drove the new 335 BMW -- holy mule muffins batman, it was like, er, driving an Audi S4 stick (and there was an extra $7,000 and change in the glove box.)
Ping pong?
Audi goes turbo, BMW eschews it. Audi eschews it -- at least in the V6 and POW, BMW adopts it like it is the magic ability to pump power out of thin air?
Meanwhile the Japanese keep upping their power routinely.
In 2004 the A6 2.7T was what 265HP or was it 280 or was that figure the torque from about 2 rpm to redline or some impossibly broad band?
In 2005 for about 5 grand more, the new A6 was emasculated down to 255 HP and 240 something pound feet over a much narrower range (but with a 6 speed.) 2006 ditto. 2007 ditto.
The 2005 BMW 530 was killed in the bragging rights dept with 225 but it was the 240 HP Lexus that couldn't get no respect.
There is a horsepower war on -- and yes, the German 8's 10's and 12's are awesome. But most of the cars actually sold here are the 6's, by far.
The Germans are on a light, lively and lean kick?
Next thing you know the new Audi A6 will come out with 250HP while everything from Nissan will START at 275 or higher.
OK, Mercedes has a bit more juice and 7 speeds to choose from -- but even there, until you go to the outrageous zone money wise, the power remains relatively tame.
Now I do love my 255HP A6, but the occasional visit to the M35 for a test drive does make me wonder why for 3+ thousand dollars more (speaking of the A6) the Audi can't come up with a 6 cylinder engine with, hmm, 295 HP and quit dinkin' or as my friend says about his kid "piddle dinkin'" around?
:confuse:
None of this is really new. The Germans have always had big eights and small sixes, and fours that without forced induction would have horse-and-buggy levels of power. Japan has always had smaller eights than the Germans (expect for Audi), and bigger, more powerful sixes, and big naturally aspirated fours that have similar power to Germany's blown fours.
When the Germans had 2.8L 200ish hp engines the Japanese had 3.0L 220ish hp engines. When Germany went to 3.0L and 220hp, Japan went to 3.5L and 260hp, then 280hp, and now 300hp. These boosts came within a few years, and the Germans just havent caught up yet. I'm sure that when the A6 and 5 series offer 300hp from six cylinder engines, the Japanese will be using 3.8s with 350hp.
Lexus Sales in US
2005 = 242,060
2006 = 258,480
Change = +6.8%
--------------------------------------
BMW
BMW brand sales were up 2.2 percent year-to-date, to 220,885 vehicles compared to 216,063 vehicles sold in the same period in 2005.
-----------------------------------------
Acura
2005 = 177,107
2006 = 164,967
Change = down - 6.9%
-------------------------
Mercedes
2005 = 174,593
2006 = 197,599
Change = +13%
-------------------------
Infiniti
2005 = 113,182
2006 = 97,652
Change = down -13.7%
-----------------------------------------------
Audi Sales in US
2005 = 66,315
2006 = 69,010
Change = +4.1%
Cadillac Certified Pre-Owned Vehicles posted 3,818 sales in September, up 31 percent from last September.
People are actually buying the 9-7X? I'm surprised at that. Its something like a year away from death, and its based on a last generation Trailblazer. GM's own GMT900 trucks are much better.
M
I just sold my tired 2000 A6 w/100,000 miles and bought a Mazda CX-7. 244 HP / 258 lb. ft. single turbo 4 banger, almost the same specs as my old 6-cylinder twin-turbo Audi!Amazing low end power, not necessary to push this thing hard to get going,almost no turbo lag due in part to the DISI--(direct injection spark ignition) 6 speed tip-tronic style transmission and currently about 17 mpg in town on premium fuel.About 2200 rpm at 60 mph in 6th gear. Not bad specs for a 4,000 lb all wheel drive SUV.
Mazda's turbo 2.3 is the best engine they have. I think the RX-8 would be better with that engine than with its wankel rotary. It wouldn't guzzle oil like the like the rotary engine does, and the turbo four also has the advantage of about 100ft.lbs more torque.
1. reliability
2. emission.
If BMW's turbo holds up well, the competition may indeed give another look to the turbos.
Rocky
P.S. nice to see ya on the boards.
On the other hand, if a question about why German brands are not wringing 300hp out of their engines has switched us over to a discussion of where can we find the most horsepower and low-end torque for the buck, then we appear to be on track ... and, then, let's not leave out the Dodge Charger SRT8: zero to 60 in 4.9 seconds; 425hp; and 0.87g on the skidpad.
By comparison, in Car and Driver's road test, with 244 horsepower at 5000 rpm, the CX-7 AWD Sport hauled its 3920 pounds to 60 mph in 7.9 seconds and on through the quarter-mile in 16.1 seconds at 87 mph -- 0.84g on the skidpad. And they averaged only 14 mpg during testing, well below the EPA’s findings of 18/24 mpg which, in turn, is lower even than, just for an example, a 4000+ lb Audi A6's EPA figures.
I'm not sure what your point is here. Talking about the power of BMW's 530i and Audi's A6 3.2 v the competition is very much on topic. I don't think "horses-per-dollar" was ever part of the discussion. All luxury performance sedans will score poorly by that matrix...they're luxury cars. You're paying for luxury after all, not just a big lump of iron with a lot of power.
The best engines in the compact ute class are currently in the RAV4 V6 and X3 3.0i. The turbo fours in the competition are slower...and thirstier. The one exception is the WRX engine in the Forester XT, which is fast enough to chase X5 and Caynne V8s. I still don't get how Subaru was able to pull that off with 224hp.
Ironically, your last two sentences (in the excerpt I quoted) makes the point I was trying to make, but you said it more clearly.
Perhaps a misreading, but while I certainly agree that talking about the power of BMW's 530i and Audi's A6 3.2 v the competition is very much on topic, I did read the comparison of a 2000 A6 w/100,000 miles versus a Mazda CX-7 as veering off in the direction of "hp/$$" as a way to the address that topic. I didn't get any other point from simply noting that there are cheaper cars which offer more horsepower and torque than the typical German LPS, but maybe there is one.
I read it as just a comparison of Japanese and German engine power, and not necessarily LPS vs. mainstream CUV. When I was talking about German vs Japanese engines a few posts back, I was including VW's 1.8T and 2.8, and 3.0s from Nissan, Honda, and Toyota, not just the LPS cars. I don't think the intention was to say that the CX-7 was a better "value" than the Audi, but I could be wrong.
For the power the Germans(BMW & MB) offered, they were always faster than their Japanese competitors, Audi had and still is has weight issues...They've come a long way, I still can't believe the 2.0t has more power than the old 2.8 v6..
I recall when the TL type-S coupe and 4dr arrived, they were supposed to "bring it" to the 3er....even with more power than the 3 then, it still didn't cut it.
Hardly. The TL and CL Type S cars had very sloppy handling, lousy brakes, bad interiors, and transmissions that liked to fail. Even the Volvo C70 coupe, which was based on the 850 sedan from around 1993, handled better than the CL Type-S. BMW had no threat from Japan until the G35 arrived in '03. The IS300, if it had been done correctly, could've been one.
I'm not sure that the "German horses are bigger" argument still holds up anymore. The 335i and IS350 are just about equal in 0-60 runs, and horsepower is basically the same. The LS430 is VERY fast for its 278hp, certainly faster than the 275hp S430.
OK...I understand what you're drawing attention to: German versus Japanese engines.
A few thoughts (very subjective):
German "premium" brands don't specifically build for U.S. the way Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura do. In U.S. auto media comparison tests, there is much weight given to which car accelerates fastest in any similarly priced group. Japanese manufacturers, I believe, build to win those contests in the U.S. press -- and it works, here.
Internationally, on a scale of 1 to 10, BMW and Mercedes sell 10. Audi sells 8. It's then a long drop to Volvo and Lexus, which would (on a graph) be around 4. In the 2 to 3 range would be Cadillac, Acura, Lincoln, and Infiniti. For example, worldwide BMW sales rose by about 120,000 vehicles to 1,328,000 in 2005. Mercedes also was over one million. Audi's figure was 829,109.
Internationally, and (to Mercedes, BMW, and Audi, perhaps almost as important) at home in Germany, the German big-3 outsell foreign competitors in the LPS category, unlike the U.S. and Japan. They build the smooth, refined engines and drivetrains that keep their premium image alive and separated (in buyers' minds) from Japanese brands. So far, it works for them.
Whatever they're doing, it works on me. Viscerally, in response to the post about BMW 530xi versus Infiniti M35x, I don't experience the two cars as being in the same category. I think the G35 and M35 hit a mark (which I subjectively categorize as luxurious muscle cars) but don't (yet) enter what I'd call the Premium LPS realm, where "smooth and refined" meets "powerful and engaging". I found the G35 and M35 to be wicked fast and fun, but somewhat noisy, with rears that don't take bumps well, and engines that over-depend on low-geared transmissions to suck great amounts of gas in order to push cars to victory in 0 to 60 tests, while German brands put enormous effort into slowly evolving more power (with each engine generation) through sophisticated technology (such as Audi's FSI) that combines more power with better gas mileage and keeps the whole experience like "warp-speed" acceleration on the old Star Trek series, rather than a roller-coaster ride.
As I said, all very subjective ... but then that's what we're sharing with each other, our subjective and visceral takes on these wonderful cars.
I'm not sure what the LPS sales are in Japan, but here in the states BMW and Mercedes still have the lead by a largin margin in the LPS catgory, and they outsell Audi 3 or 4-to-1.
The M35's version of the VQ35 is last generation, so it only has VVT on the intake side. Still, its a very highly regarded engine, being on the Wards list 12 years running. The problem is there is only so much they can do with just 5-speeds. They are down one gear to just about everyone else (two gears to the E class), except the RL which is in the same boat and also has poor fuel economy.
I'm having a tough time finding the M35's ratios, as Infiniti annoyingly doesn't list them on their site. I think 5th gear is somewhere around 0.83:1, compared to 0.69:1 for the automatic 530xi in 6th. There's just no way the Infiniti can compete when it comes to highway fuel economy.
As for Audi, they are coming along ... The brand set a new record for vehicle sales in 2005 for the tenth year in succession: 829,109 vehicles were delivered to customers worldwide, an increase of 6.4 percent (2004: 779,441).
The largest individual export market is the USA with 83,066 units (77,917, up 6.6 percent), but that's still just 10% of Audi's volume. Audi sold 247,125 vehicles in Germany, 12,033 (5.1 percent) more than in 2004.
In Great Britain Audi sold 81,374 (up 4.5 percent) and China with 58,878 (up 9.6 percent).
The above-average growth of Audi in Western Europe led to the brand achieving a record market share of 4.2 percent in 2005.
Ok, I gotcha now. Yes, that seems to be unique to the Europeans in that they are very loyal to their own brands. Ford and GM's Opel\Vauxhall brands have somewhat of a presence, but Chrysler, GM U.S. brands like Cadillac, and the Japanese are basically footnotes in Europe.
I can't say my Audi ownership has been pleasant during my 100,000 mile "test-drive". Without the extended service plan, the repair expenses for this car would have approached $10,000 during the last 3 years.
Joining the local Audi club was also critical because I was alerted to an able independent Audi mechanic who made the franchised Audi dealer's non service plan covered charges look downright ridiculous.
My now extensive experience with the Audi brand has me convinced that these types of cars are solely lease material, you give them back after 3 years or so and move on to the next car.
An Audi driver should not have to work as hard as I did to keep this car running. I was very fortunate to have been able to sell the car privately for a fair price just after the service plan expired, before the next repair issue landed in my lap!
Thanks for that clarification. And apologies for my first post. It was unnecessarily harsh or confronting or something like that.
Did the twin-turbo 6-cylinder A6, before it got old and tired, have more or less turbo-lag than the new 4-cylinder CX-7?
Reliability? No question, the Americans and Germans have had to play catch-up. A whole expectation-set about cars has developed over the last twenty years, centered around Japanese cars and nurtured by CR and JDP: as consumers, we've come to expect a much better repair-experience than European and American brands have given us.
But, I would say, European and American car manufacturers are catching up, while Japanese cars may have gotten about as reliable as they can get, or, in some cases, as with Toyota recently, face a danger of slipping as, ironically, their success leads to fast increases in the number of new models (shorter time making sure everything's perfect) and just plain old fast increases in production. For example, Mercury, Buick and Cadillac came in ahead of Toyota in JDP's 2006 vehicle dependability survey and Toyota has had one of its largest recalls in its history. Meanwhile, to take MB as an example, this week's Business Week has a feature article which claims that "a focus on quality and cost has the luxury carmaker humming again." We'll see, of course, but while three years ago, I would have agreed that, with the possible exception of newer BMWs, if you wanted to keep a car for 100K mile or more, you'd better buy Japanese, now I'm not so convinced that the same cannot be said about the newer Audi, MB, Porsche, and BMW models -- especially since so many of us seem to be getting the extended warranties with whatever car we buy.
Since the Mazda is a new model, there is no data about reliability. I just hope that it has to be better than the Audi, which never went more than 4 0r 5 thousand miles between repairs, in warranty or out.
This is a list of repairs performed on this car in the last 6 years:
1.) driver's window motor
2.) passenger window motor
3.) climate control module
4.) heater blower motor
5.) front lower tie rods
6.) front brake rotors---5 times
7.) air conditioning vacuum assembly
8.) secondary electric fan
9.) turn signal module
10.) air bag control module
11.) valve cover gaskets
12.) cam chain gasket
13.) water pump
14.) timing belt
15>) tensioner rollers
15.) air pump
I didn't realize when buying this car that the twin turbo Audi was, and probably still is one of the most sophisticated and complex cars on the road and getting anything fixed would be quite the chore in many ways.
Do you think that the new ones are more reliable?
Well, yeah, that's what I'm speculating will turn out to be the case.
Your experience was horrendous. If I had that experience with any brand-product, from refrigerator to car, I don't know that I could ever bring myself to buy another product from that manufacturer.
But, what I'm reading, in many publications, is that the German carmakers have gotten the message, especially over the past five years: here in the U.S. we will drop you like a hot potato if we form the impression that you're peddling high-class lemons. And they quickly (frantically) have mobilized in response, essentially copying from the Japanese what the Japanese originally learned from an American theorist (about insuring consistent quality production). So, even if you just look at the progression of red (good) and black (bad) dots in CR's reports on Audi, the red dots have displaced the black ones (but not eliminated them yet) going from 2000 through 2005.