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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I can't wait to hear what you and your wife think of the new MDX.

    I think dynamics wise, it's a real hit, especially when price is considered.

    The let down for me was the cheap feeling steering wheel. I think it's changed because the second time I drove it, it didn't bother me.

    It's completely leap frogged the RX IMO.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Maybe its just me, but I still don't see the value in the RL, even at $40k. It's identical, (other than the tech package) to the '05s, which are now $30k, maybe less. Its still the runt of the LPS litter, which its sales reflect. An '06 M35 is around $40k, and its a better car than the RL in every way. An M45 is a few thousand more. So where's this great value? I just dont get it.

    Mark, if the missus is willing to go Japanese, why not try the FX45? It's much faster than the pokey MDX (7.5 seconds from 300hp?) the trim is actually real, and it's much more of a drivers "car". Though the exterior is almost identical to the old one, the interior has been much improved.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    owns an FX. It's a great car. But all around, the new MDX is better IMO. Equals in driving dynamics, and fun, but the MDX is a much more comfortable ride, and a better interior to boot. Plus, better stereo, and Nav.

    Since when can you get an M35X, with nav, XM, and upgraded stereo for 40k?
  • carfan28carfan28 Member Posts: 43
    Eqivalent of RL with Tech package would be M with technology and advanced tachnology packages- $52K MSRP car- buy it for $49K in NJ. RL can be bought for $44K in NJ.

    FX45 may be the ugliest car I've seen on the road. It can't compare with an MDX in any way except handling. It's an SUV and not meant to handle well- it's supposed to luxuriate.
  • carfan28carfan28 Member Posts: 43
    He bought a 2006 RL in July, '06 for $41K. 2007 RL's arediscounted in NJ to around $44K with tech package- navigation. Base 2007RL can be bought for about $41K. The 2006 RL didn't come in a base model.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Since when can you get an M35X, with nav, XM, and upgraded stereo for 40k?

    '06 M45 Sport, all options, 10K miles, $44K. That's a great value. A new RL is not.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    With this "spirited" debate, I gotta drive the RL.

    I just noticed, tho, the RL STILL has the 5 speed auto. The MDX, too, 5 speed. The HP and torque of these vehicles and the RPM's at which these numbers are attained, BEG for a 6 speed.

    I must admit, part of this curiosity has to do with some friends, now on their second Acura who -- after multiple Mercedes -- are just so pleased to have a car that can pass the dealership without needing a visit to fix this, that or the other problem area.

    We just pulled in to the Acura dealer after liking the Land Rover, but having some trepidation regarding its reliability and the $61K price tag (and the thirsty habits.)

    By the way, my wife said the Lincoln MKX was the first car she has ever test driven that if given to her free she would not want. She said it had the worst feel behind the wheel EVER! She wanted out of there so quickly, I didn't get to drive.

    Yet, the Lincoln from the passenger seat was very nice fit and finish wise, good seats, nice nav system.

    The Land Rover's nav system was leaps and bounds better than both Audis and BMW's BTW.

    The Land Rover had a voice command system that, too, was slightly ahead of the German's.

    The new X3, typically, had that BMW sedan feel and with the new 6 speed auto and that new gutsy engine seemed very quick and not at all flustered when pushed.

    The others, somewhat typically, are great (better than the Germans) when parked, the BMW (and other Germans to be fair) are great (better than the others) when being driven.

    Add a technology package to the Bimmer (a la MDX, Rover, Infiniti) and I'll avert my eyes (we're not worthy.)

    Hope springs eternal that the new CTS from Cadillac has merged some of the best of both worlds.

    Just in case, carry lemons and cover yourself in butter, "there's a lobster loose." :surprise:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I just noticed, tho, the RL STILL has the 5 speed auto. The MDX, too, 5 speed. The HP and torque of these vehicles and the RPM's at which these numbers are attained, BEG for a 6 speed.

    I must admit, part of this curiosity has to do with some friends, now on their second Acura who -- after multiple Mercedes -- are just so pleased to have a car that can pass the dealership without needing a visit to fix this, that or the other problem area.

    Same with Infiniti, at least for the moment. Thats the one issue I have with the M, it needs a 6th gear to get the revs down below 3K on the highway. The Nissan GT-R is rumored to be getting a DSG style sequential manual that should have at least 6 gears, and hopefully Infiniti will pick that up for use in its cars.

    For whatever its worth, C&D's long term test RL had 8 unscheduled service visits and constant electrical problems, from a car only a few months old. Acura's first MY products lately have been kind of buggy, so that would make me a bit nervous about the MDX. Lexus and Infiniti don't seem to have the same issues. On top of that I think the MDX is hideous, and I just don't like Acura all that much. There, I said it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    By the way, my wife said the Lincoln MKX was the first car she has ever test driven that if given to her free she would not want. She said it had the worst feel behind the wheel EVER! She wanted out of there so quickly, I didn't get to drive.

    Yet, the Lincoln from the passenger seat was very nice fit and finish wise, good seats, nice nav system.

    That reminds me of when one of my old Jags was at the body shop for a week, and they gave me a Chevy Monte Carlo as a loaner. To paraphrase Jeremy Clarkson, "I'd rather have bird flu".

    What did you think of the "that '70s show" interior?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    You mention poor Acura reliability all the time, however, the latest CR reliability ratings for some selected cars are as follows:

    2. Honda

    4. Acura

    5. Lexus

    8. Infinity

    Acura has always been rated near the top. I don't know where you get your info on reliability but you need to find a new reason not to like Acura. :shades:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Acura has always been rated near the top. I don't know where you get your info on reliability but you need to find a new reason not to like Acura.

    Acura tends to clean up their act by model year number two. However, the TSX had problems in its first MY, the TL had problems in its first MY, and the RL had problems in its first MY. Therefore, the chance is quite good that the MDX is going to have problems.

    Infiniti's rep gets hurt badly by the QX56, which has absolutely horrendous quality. Otherwise, their cars are first rate. The new GS seems to be having teething problems, but the new ES and IS have done well.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    5-Series 3,482
    E-Class 3,053
    GS 1,563
    A6 893
    RL 395 (not a typo)

    Don't know Infiniti's numbers
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'd guess the M will do around 1500. It always seems to mirror sales of the GS. Doesn't seem like the RL has recovered much from last month.
  • kkoshkinkkoshkin Member Posts: 9
    Drtravel, what is your source for those stats? Not doubting your veracity; just want to be able to track them myself.

    Also, any guesses as to why the RL isn't selling at all? It seems to be a beautiful car (albeit with stiff competition). Also, does anyone think that Infiniti and/or Lexus will do anything in reaction the new $3500 dealer cash on the RL?
  • vanhalenabevanhalenabe Member Posts: 20
    Hi Everyone,

    I am currently in the market for a 2006 M35/45. I only like the Wheat Interior with Rosewood Trim, which rules out the Sport Package. I am looking for the Technology Package, however.

    So, I'm comparing a regular M35 vs. an M45. The cars look identical on the interior & exterior. The only difference I'm aware of is what's under the hood.

    The price difference on the used market is between $5K and $8K, depending on exact options, mileage, etc.

    Question -- Is an M45 worth the difference? That is a lot of money for just an engine upgrade. But I've also heard the Infiniti V-8 is much smoother and quieter than the V-6. EPA gas mileage is only 1-2 mpg worse. Some people have said an M35 is essentially nicer and larger G35. But the M45 has an unique engine not shared with the G, and that alone is worth the price of admission.

    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. If there are other differences (good & bad) I haven't thought about, please let me know.

    Thanks!
  • uglybearuglybear Member Posts: 26
    FX handles like a sport car. MDX is soccer mom tank. Man does not want to be caught in MDX/
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    If I were you, I'd drive both as new, then you'd have a good reference point when you try to find a used one you like. The cars are as close to identical as they can be except for the drivetrain. Their different weights, may require different springs and shocks, but I kind of doubt it since there isn't really that big of a difference. If you like the extra oomph of the V-8, then it may be worth it, but (for me at least) the V-6 is plenty.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Also, any guesses as to why the RL isn't selling at all? It seems to be a beautiful car (albeit with stiff competition).

    Hmm.. where to begin. It's slow, the handling is lousy, its too heavy, fuel economy is poor, there aren't enough options, it looks invisible compared to the rest of the class, some of the materials are chintzy, the center stack is awful, its too small, its stuck with a 5-speed auto, the seats are from a $20K car, the keyless ignition is a last minute hack-job, and the TL is a better car. Other than that, the RL rocks.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I agree that the FX is slightly less feminine although the new MDX changes things.

    The driving dynamics are great on the FX, but I think equally good [in a different way] in the new MDX.

    Both of these are at odds with themselves, as they are overweight people haulers.

    Have you driven them both?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,846
    All that might be true..

    But, I think the biggest reason the RL doesn't sell is the way it looks... It just doesn't look like an LPS.. Even in the Acura showroom, the TL looks more like an LPS than the RL.

    Because, really... 95% of buyers don't pay any attention to acceleration, weight, fuel economy, etc, etc... You really pegged it with this: it looks invisible compared to the rest of the class.

    regards,
    kyfdx
    (not the host here)

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  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    I had some problems with the FX when considering it:

    multiple blind spots, subpar a/c (why I dunno as the M has great air), starting to get dated, and poor gas mileage.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Drtravel, what is your source for those stats? Not doubting your veracity; just want to be able to track them myself.

    Go to www.theautochannel.com During the first few days of the month auto manufacturers announce their monthly sales. Of course the site is not as good as Edmunds LOL.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Back seat entry is also "challenging".
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    But, I think the biggest reason the RL doesn't sell is the way it looks... It just doesn't look like an LPS.. Even in the Acura showroom, the TL looks more like an LPS than the RL.

    I still think Acura has absolutely no design direction of any kind. They kind of started down one path with the TSX and TL, but then completely abandoned that with the RL. The MDX is yet another direction, and I don't like where its going. I mean look at this thing, its hideous.

    image
    image
  • uglybearuglybear Member Posts: 26
    Yes and we own FX45. My wife actually didn't like MDX- she said it looked like SUV and accelerated like SUV. 6cyl and 7 seats don't make car particularly fast. MDX is wider and heavier. FX45 does 0-60 in 6.3 seconds (FX35 in 7s) or so while MDX is 7.5 or so. 7.5 is rather slow. FX45 has nice exhaust note, sport suspension and excellent roadholding in turns (0.89g skidpad). Driving it feels like driving large fast sport sedan rather than SUV.
  • uglybearuglybear Member Posts: 26
    Well, it depends on your priorities. If you want large people hauler with great visibilty nad access to all seats, you buy a bus or Suburban. Box with large windows will always do better. You want high clearance AWD with sport handling and acceleration - you buy FX. BMW X5 looks boxy and there is no 550xi. Audi Allroad is no more.

    After Infinity introduced FX now everyone is trying to get to the crossover segment. Mercedes R, upconing BMW V-series, Audi Q5.

    MDX is in a different segment, it is not a crossover by any imagination.
  • 2001gs4302001gs430 Member Posts: 767
    Since we are off topic on SUV, I am adding these Cayenne and X5 articles for those looking for something to read:

    X5

    Cayenne
  • cheerioboy26cheerioboy26 Member Posts: 412
    Adding the M:

    5-Series 3,482
    E-Class 3,053
    M 1,961
    GS 1,563
    A6 893
    RL 395 (not a typo)
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    lg, that's not the MDX. In fact I believe it's not even either of the latest concept car designs Acura is showing on their website. Listen, it's fine that you don't like Acuras. They obviously don't offer anything you care for. It is rather annoying to read you bash them at every opportunity (no matter how small). Overall they make a fine product you can't go wrong with if you decide to go that way. They just don't make anything for you.

    Now, I'm curious have you driven both the MDX and the FX as an earlier poster asked you?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    That is the Acura Advanced Sedan Concept, which along with ASC\NSX concept are the most recent ones they've done. You can definitely see that it takes some cues from the MDX and pushes them a bit further.

    Acura makes decent cars yes, but there's always a "...but" qualifier with each one. The TSX has no power, the TL is a FWD car in a RWD segment, the RDX has horrible fuel economy and is overpriced, and I've already posted all of the problems with the RL.

    Yes, I've driven both the MDX and the FX. My wife decided that she liked the X3 better than both. The MDX isn't necessarily bad, but its not really the value that the last one was. With the lease the BMW was more affordable, and much nicer as well.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Drove the FX35 with the 20" wheels. Choppy, bumpy, harsh, almost jarring ride. Nice interior. Very nice technology.

    Drove both old ('05) and new ('07) X3 -- the old X3 with sport was firm and on certain road surfaces "harsh," but not choppy. The new '07 X3 with sport was decidedly more refined in ride, power, handling, interior and even NVH.

    Drove the RDX -- for the money worth looking at compared to a brand new 2006 X3. The driving feel of the new X3 makes it worth more -- but it may not be seen to be worth nearly $10,000 more than the RDX when equipped more upscale.

    Sat in new MDX (a black one with the Cabernet interior and sport package) -- having driven and sat in, of course, a new X5, the MDX, sitting still, seemed competitive by virtue of its full MSRP of about $46K (X3 priced, that is.)

    The tests of the MDX with the magnaride (sport) seem to "suggest" a transformed vehicle. We plan to test it too.

    I have no reason to dislike the MDX, well, its looks may be an acquired taste, but in black it is less cartoonish.

    On paper, in reviews and for $45K, it appears the MDX is a tour de force.

    It apparently is somewhat polarizing, too.

    I would comment, not having yet driven one, it seems to beg for a 6 speed auto transmission.

    Thus far, nothing seems to match the X3 (in this Price Range) for the driving experience. Moreover, just sitting there, behind the wheel, the MDX seems (for this price) to be the one to get. Hmmm, will I (or my wife, better said) be sitting more or driving more.

    I'll get back to you.

    Oh, oh, great sound system in the Acura. Damn near awesome.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Mark
    I agree a lot with your post. However, having lived with the Wife's FX for almost 2 years now I would add,

    1. The FX's interior doesn't hold up to well over time.

    2. Yes, both of these rides are begging for a 6 speed but, that would put them in the Q7/X5 price category.

    3. The new MDX is much more refined than the FX.

    My biggest knock on the Acura is the cheap feeling steering wheel. But, it handles very well for a big Japanese SUV [very well in fact] and the electronics [nav/stereo] are some of the best in the biz.

    Now how bout that Edmunds review on the RS4 vs M5, and the Audi coming away with the win? [from one Audi lover to another]
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    lg, I didn't realize Acura had moved that concept so far along. I hadn't checked it out on their website until now. I stand corrected - you were right. And I agree with you in that I don't find it attractive. But as so often is the case those concepts don't usually fully make it to the showroom floor. So, hopefully that won't be the 4th gen TL or the next RL.

    As for the MDX I personally like the way it looks. I've driven two versions of it recently and it handled great for an SUV. Admittedly I don't have anything else to compare it too. It was taut and responsive without being harsh. And the stereo is one of the 5 best stock stereos I've ever listened to. But I won't be going in that direction. My fiance is so in lust with the looks of the GS350RWD that's what we're going to get.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Drove the RDX -- for the money worth looking at compared to a brand new 2006 X3. The driving feel of the new X3 makes it worth more -- but it may not be seen to be worth nearly $10,000 more than the RDX when equipped more upscale.

    The BMW MSRPs for a lot more yes, but BMW is very willing to deal when it comes to lease payments. Combine that with the free service, and its not that much more than the Acura. Also, I just can't get past the idea of making the passenger pull a bar to move their seat in a "luxury" car.
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    lg, easy on that one...until very recently that's exactly what BMW used to do in the 3 series...unless you opted for a package...
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Right, but BMW at least gave you the option to get power seats. I'd be perfectly willing to pay extra for a power passenger seat in the RDX, but you can't get one at any price. I'd be willing to pay for something like a dual 12-way seat package in the RL, but you can't get that either. To me that's not value, its restrictive.
  • hausshauss Member Posts: 169
    To me power seats of any level are a bare minimum for a luxury car. Same with power windows. Those things should not even be an option. Now, increasing the range of the power seat is different to me. So, I agree with you that it's unacceptable for the RDX to have a manual adjust passenger seat. If it costs a few hundred dollars more so what? It's already about a $35K car.

    Now, lg, you know darn well that even if the RL was offered with an option to get dual 12 way power seats you still wouldn't get it. It's an Acura! ;)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    LG has long been an Acura hater.

    I feel the same way about Lexus cars in general, the lineup just makes 0 sense to me.

    Same with Mercedes [sans S class] I just don't get em, and their ergonomics are a train wreck.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Now, lg, you know darn well that even if the RL was offered with an option to get dual 12 way power seats you still wouldn't get it. It's an Acura!

    Well I meant that if I was going to buy an RL, I'd be willing to get some kind of sport seat package. Something like the Recaros in the S4 would be lovely. Then it just needs a new platform with a V8 behind the front wheels, and a new interior, and I'd buy one tomorrow.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I agree with you on the Acura seats. It is really dumb for any up scale mfg. to have a passenger seat that is not fully adjustable.

    Whenever I test drive cars and my wife is with me, the second she sees that the passenger seat is not fully adjustable it is a deal killer. Aren't these mfgs smart enough to know how much the wife influences these purchases?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • allargonallargon Member Posts: 75
    Referencing media.gm.com and that autochannel site:

    5-Series 3,482
    E-Class 3,053
    M 1,961
    GS 1,563
    STS 1,472
    A6 893
    S80 580
    RL 395
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    http://aronkober.com/Documents/08%205%20Brochure.pdf

    Enjoy.
    - Ray
    2022 X3 M40i
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    How nice! The engine is a wonder, and the re-styling adds appeal. My mouth is watering :)

    Jose
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    OMG -- the picture (side/profile) on page one looks like the fraternal twin of the 2005 A6.

    The head on pictures now look slightly less like a Pontiac, but still the "Pontiac-popularized" slant eyed look remains.

    The Audi trout mouth is an acquired taste, to be sure; but, the BMW 5 still (to my eye, and for all I know, my eye alone) is, er, butt oogly.

    They are great driving machines, however, and one would think that is what must be the deciding factor. On the other hand, it is written, somewhere, by somebody, that STYLE sells.

    Hats off, averted eyes and bowed in reverence head -- BMW rules.

    I like the looks of the 3, X3 and X5 much better than this thing.

    To each his/her own.

    Love the write up about the engine though -- wonder what Audi and Mercedes will respond with. The 255HP Audi and even the Mercedes 6, are outclassed by the twin-turbo Bimmer's motivator.

    Eyes still averted. :surprise:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Klik
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Thats the same reason I didn't get the radar cruise on my XK. The car stays much too far back, so you'd be stuck in a perpetual "no, after you" cycle. No thanks, I have places to be.

    Those clueless left lane hogs just drive me up the wall. The worst experience I've had with one in recent memory is a guy who was matching the speed of the car in the right lane, about 1 car length back. Plenty of room for him to move over, but not enough room for me to pass on the right. After this went on for about 5 minutes, I gave him the high-beam flash, at which point he slammed on the brakes. A real peach. I went right and accelerated, but he floored it so that I'd be stuck behind the guy in the right lane, and then matched the speed of the guy in front of me again. After a second car in the left lane came up behind him (he was going 65 in a 65) he was forced to accelerate a bit, allowing me to get around the guy in front of me, and then go back into the right lane and pass him on the right.

    Its one thing to have no idea that there are other cars on the road, but to maliciously do everything you can to stop someone from passing you? What kind of person does that?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    A very dangerous person. :surprise:

    I recommend "American Autobahn," by Mark Rask. An interesting (but don't read the entire thing) read.

    Lane discipline, so it seems, would be more important from a law enforcement perspective than speeding (tickets.)

    Why? Improper "laning" is more dangerous and life threatening than speedling, apparently (according to Rask.)

    I am NOT shilling for Rask, but here is something that I think rings true LG:

    "American Autobahn will challenge everything you thought you knew about saving lives on the road. The life you save may be your own."
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    I don't recall seeing this posted:

    http://www.audiusa.com/audi/us/en2/experience/european_delivery/program_benefits- .html

    - Ray
    Who was very close to ED on a BMW a while back....
    2022 X3 M40i
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    Excellent.

    Finally.

    Just today I noticed a red A3 2.0 that could go a ways towards making me pitch my RWD-only rule.

    Thanks, Ray.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I've driven the A3 2.0T three times now and I have to agree with you. For my next daily driver, the ONLY car with FWD I'd even consider is the A3. In fact, I like the car so much that it actually trumps a few other ELLPS RWD cars (CTS and IS to name two) in my mind.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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