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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    jobie, how does your car handle considering the extra we weight of theAWD option. I have the 330xi '06 and I swear it handles better than the non-SP rwd 330/335.

    Can you shed any light from experiences you might have had?

    Regards,
    OW
  • jobiejobie Member Posts: 47
    Coming from a 6000 lb SUV (LR3), of course I think the 535xi handles fantastic...same HP as the LR3 and weighs 2000 lb less! Seriously, before the LR3 I had two RWD BMW's, '99 323i and a '02 530i - I loved both of them. I really wasnt planning on an AWD, but my local dealers never had any RWD's on the lot to test drive, only AWD's. So I drove the xi a few times. The "client advisors" all said they felt the xi's are more "planted" than the RWD's and swore by the winter handling. I admit I didn't need AWD, but I bet it will be nice on a few snowy days this winter. The xi adds about 200 lbs - like driving with a passenger, no big deal - especially with 300 horses.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I tested a 550i with the SP. According the the brochure, the 550 has a different suspension than the 535 sport suspension. Has anyone experienced the difference or is it too close to tell or just marketing hype. I am considering the 535i or the xi. I like that I won't have to do the winter tire change for the xi but I really liked the way the sp 550i rode. To me it was not rough at all. I know that it had standard tires. Does the SP in the 535i come with standard or run-flats? Also, I know that active roll is only available on the 535, not the xi. Is that important?
    And last, has anyone tried the new auto sport transmission?
    Is there any difference besides the addition paddle shifters? The salesman said that it was a completely new transmission and said it was fantastic.
    Thanks
  • richardga73richardga73 Member Posts: 84
    bruceomega or anyone who knows, excuse the ignorance but what would be the diffence between all season and summer tires? There seems to be a lack of knowledge about this especially at the tire store. I am told something different by unknowledged salesmen in every tire dealer. Summer tires I am told being more performance oriented, have softer tread (for smoother ride) but stiffer walls for cornering, thus fewer miles and rougher ride before replacement. All season having harder rubber (rougher ride) for more miles thus more noise but softer sidewalls which I would think would help with the ride. I know that there are T,S,V, and Z catagories which throws a monkeywrench in to the equation. So I guess I am posing a question, what gives you the softest quietest ride and which gives the roughest noisiest ride and the ideal in between?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    The factoids that you've listed are all over the map, and as such I'm not sure I can unravel that furball, but I'll try.

    Speed rating:
    Q 099 mph max
    R 106 mph max
    S 112 mph max
    T 118 mph max
    H 130 mph max
    V 149 mph max
    Z Generic for greater than 149
    W (or ZW) at least 168 mph
    Y (or ZY) at least 186 mph
    Generally speaking, the higher the top speed of the tire, the rougher it will ride and the better it will corner.

    Generally speaking, All-Season tires occupy the "H" speed rating and down, while the Summer performance tires occupy the "V" speed rating and above (usually above). Are there All-Season tires with speed ratings higher than "H"? Yes, even some winter tires. Are there Summer performance tires lower than "V"? Hmmm, can't say that I've seen one in recent memory but I suppose it's possible.

    In answer to your question, it seems that you are looking for a tire that TireRack.com calls "High Performance All-Season". Basically those are "V" rated (and above) All-Season tires that have good grip, reasonable winter performance for areas with occasional snow, have a longer tread life than dedicated summer tires and are kind of the ultimate in compromise tires. Me personally, I'm much happier with two sets of wheels and tires, one set for mid spring through mid fall (dedicated Summer tires), and the second set for the rest of the year (dedicated Winter tires).

    I hope this helped a little.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Summer only tires have stickier rubber that gets hard in the cold. They typically also do not have a tread pattern that will have any grip on snow or ice. They are almost like driving on bald tires in the winter, regardless of the tread depth.

    An all-season tire will have a tread compound that does not get super hard in the cold - it retains some of the flexibility and the tread design has more sipes so it can grip on snow or ice.

    A snow tire has rubber that doesn't work very well as the temperature rises, so they should not be used in the summer. They tend to be, but aren't necessarily, noisier than summer tires.

    An all-season tire is a compromise in all seasons...not a great snow tire, not a great handling tire.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    So I guess I am posing a question, what gives you the softest quietest ride and which gives the roughest noisiest ride and the ideal in between?

    There will be a lot of generalizing here, because different brands and even individual models of the same type of tires can be quite difference in terms of noise, ride, and handling. Generally speaking however, dedicated snow tires are the noisiest and roughest. There are a few that can handle dry roads reasonably well, like Blizzaks, Arctic Alpins, and Dunlop Winter Sports.

    If your car needs a W (168mph) or Y (186mph) rated tire, you have to get the highest performance summer only tires, like Goodyear Eagle F1s or Pilot Sport PS2s. There are now V rated Snow tires and Z rated A/S tires, but neither is capable of the W category. Summer tires are made for hot, dry days. They can really scream on certain highway textures, but other than that I don't think they are generally noisier or rougher riding than a typical A\S. Wet performance depends on the brand and model, but using them in cold wet, snow, or ice is not a good idea. Treadwear is short, as low as 140, and 280 is about as high as it goes.

    A/S tires have come quite a long way in the last few years. Unfortunately most cars that come with A/S tires typically come with crap like Michelin MXVs, but there are some very good choices in the "ultra high-performance all-season" category, like the Potenza AS Pole Position and Pilot Sport A/S. I used to do the summer\winter tire swap game on my LS430, but I got tired of it. I'm using the Bridgestones now, and they are very quiet, have great performance in the dry and the wet, turn in response is *almost* as good as the best summer tires, and no UHP summer tire can touch their 400 treadwear rating. I won't use the LS if there's more than a minimal amount of snow and slush anyway, so the Potenza's snow abilities are good enough to get the job done, and it means I don't have to put up with the noise and the crappy handling for every day that it doesn't snow, which has been 99% of the days in the last few years in southern PA
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    There are few tires that actually are "all season" and even the one's that pull that off reasonably well, are not really great in all seasons.

    Some have said, All Seasons means "no seasons."

    Well, here is a thought about what might work well, year round on the 535xi: a V rated, Grand Touring (A/S) designated tire of the OEM size (or possibly "plus zero" size.)

    Such tires are marketed and they will do pretty well year round -- if your area has "moderate" snow. They will still be able to be bested by dedicated rubber, but changing tires and/or wheels twice a year is jus' un'merican.

    Check the TireRack and check the brand Continental as they probably have a size appropriate to the BMW in question.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    There are few tires that actually are "all season" and even the one's that pull that off reasonably well, are not really great in all seasons.

    Some have said, All Seasons means "no seasons."


    I wouldn't put the Potenza AS Pole Positions on my Jag, but I wouldn't ever use the Jag with any snow on the ground anyway. On a car like the 535xi though, I would think that the best UHP A/S tires like the Potenza, Pilot Sport, PZero, or Eagle F1 A/S would provide a good balance between great overall wet\dry\noise performance and good enough snow abilities.
  • bruceomegabruceomega Member Posts: 250
    richardga73,

    Others with more knowledge and experience than I have already responded!

    FWIW, my 535Xi came with Goodyear RS-A, 225/50-17, all season tires with a W speed rating.

    Thanks
    Bruce
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter from a national newspaper is hoping to talk to consumers who have been shopping for a European vehicle (BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Audi or others) and have found them to be more expensive because of the Euro exchange rates. Please reply to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Monday, October 1, 2007 with your daytime contact info.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    MB E-Class 4,993
    BMW 5-Series 4,055
    Lexus GS 1,668
    Infiniti M 1,380
    Audi A6 1,126
    Acura RL 357
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting, it seems M-B and BMW are making a killing, at the expense of everyone else. Poor Acura...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Just add in the September Accord sales - 35,031 and good as new! They look like twins anyway.

    Accura has been sent a message.

    Regards,
    OW
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    I'm pretty sure that Infiniti has to be disappointed with their M sales. They were usually just a tad better than the GS at around 2K units per month. Given that Nissan posted positive sales this month due to their new G35 and Altima, maybe the G35 stole a few sales.

    Whenever Americans think of LPS they generally mean German. During every month in the past two and half years, the MB and BMW have always been the top two and by a wide margin. Not sure that the Japanese brands (no matter how good) will ever touch the MB and BMW in this segment. The Acura has always had low sales but I believe this month was an all-time low.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Here are the year to date numbers:

    BMW 5-Series 37,894
    MB E-Class 34,184
    Lexus GS 17,090
    Infiniti M 16,413
    Audi A6 8,762
    Acura RL 4,618

    Acura sells more than 5,000 MDXs every month!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm pretty sure that Infiniti has to be disappointed with their M sales. They were usually just a tad better than the GS at around 2K units per month. Given that Nissan posted positive sales this month due to their new G35 and Altima, maybe the G35 stole a few sales.

    Did those September figures include the updated '08 M? If not, it could just be that people were holding off for the new version. The M has beaten the GS in sales several times, but I think the GS has been ahead by a small margin the majority of the time. In September everybody was way down including Lexus, while MB and BMW were up. It is amazing that despite the fact that the E is the oldest car in the segment and about to be replaced, it still dominates the class. The Germans (except for Audi) still seem to have a lock on the mid-lux performance category. Not so much in the entry-lux category, and of course the LS outsells both the S and 7.
  • klpeelklpeel Member Posts: 46
    Yes, I think that the delay in the updated '08 M may be part of the answer. I'm one of those waiting for the update to be available before buying, as I'll be looking at the new M45x.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Yes, I think that the delay in the updated '08 M may be part of the answer. I'm one of those waiting for the update to be available before buying, as I'll be looking at the new M45x.

    Didn't think about that cause but makes sense. I bought my M back in April, 2005 and took it in for service last week and while I was waiting walked around the lot and didn't see any of the 2008 M's yet. I was curious to see if the new M and new G had almost identical fronts - might be even harder to tell them apart. I believe Infiniti will be the first LPS to have all wheel drive on their V-8.

    The current issue of Consumer Reports again picked the M as the best LPS - not that this will have any influence on sales.
  • lynnminnylynnminny Member Posts: 49
    According to Infiniti-- the 2008 M is due for release on Nov. 5. Also-- 2008 Lexus GS should be out the end of this month.

    I own an Acura RL and have already noticed that the Accord looks even more like the Acura now. It is very disappointing and I will be selling my Acura. I am also waiting for the 2008 M45x to come out.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Oops... I meant currently available.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Many of those are still available...
  • kgarykgary Member Posts: 180
    The Audi, Lexus, Mercedes are all still available.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I am surprised to see that the GS has outsold the M this year. The GS must have something going for it.

    Keep in mind that there just may be people waiting on the 08 GS as well!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • pbooks1pbooks1 Member Posts: 2
    Hi, please can anyone advise me if it would be OK to fit new alloy wheels size 8 1/4 Jx17 H2 ET 34(235/45 ZR17 tyres) on my E class Mercedes, 1997 (W210), which currently has 15 inch alloys (205/60 15 tyres).


    The alloys I wish to fit to my car are 8 1/4 Jx17 H2 ET 34, are fitted with Dunlop 9000 tyres 235/45 ZR 17.
    Please could you tell me if this is OK to put on my 1997 E230 Mercedes saloon(210).
    The handbook says that suitable wheel & Tyres "light alloy wheel" is these cobinations 235/45 R17 93w tyre & the alloy 8 Jx 17 H2 ET37.

    Compared to the alloys I wish to fit, would the above handbook stated ones be OK on my car?? If so what differences in cars drive should be expected?

    Thank you very much
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The GS has the Lexus badge, and the Lexus dealer network, so the odds are already pretty well stacked in its favor. As for the car itself, the M has trounced the GS in every magazine test and in CR as well. If Infiniti had the same number of dealers as Lexus and the same badge prestige, I would bet that the GS would lose badly in sales as well. In any case, sales is of course no measure of quality.

    Except for the GS460, everything else about the '08 GS is a carryover, so I don't see why people would be holding out for the new one, other than the few hundred that buy the V8. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the updated M is enough to push it over the top.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Sounds like you're not in the USA, but that doesn't matter...what will fit is based on the car, not where you are. 17" wheels can fit, but not sure about those. In running the numbers, it looks like the 15" vs 17" in the size you indicate has the 17" version 13% smaller in rotating diameter, so that would make a huge difference in the gearing and speedometer/odometer...I don't think you'd be happy.

    When you go to a bigger wheel/tire, the ride generally gets worse but the handling can improve.

    A good place to investigate tire/wheel combinations, even if you can't buy them there, is www.tirerack.com. What you are interested in is +2 sizing, if you have 15" on there now.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    If Infiniti had the same number of dealers as Lexus and the same badge prestige, I would bet that the GS would lose badly in sales as well. In any case, sales is of course no measure of quality.

    Pure speculation and perhaps wishful thinking on your part. If someone wants to buy an M, I am sure they can find a dealer.

    The M is edgier than the GS but IMO it is not as refined, its styling is dated, and it just doesn't look as good. I think that probably these are the real reasons it is being outsold by the GS.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Pure speculation and perhaps wishful thinking on your part. If someone wants to buy an M, I am sure they can find a dealer.

    Perhaps there may be some truth to that. Infiniti has more than I thought, 165 compared to 202 for Lexus according to AutoDealerBase.

    I like the M's aggressiveness. If I wanted a sedan with a quiet, cushy, and dull ride I'd buy an LS, not a GS. The two issues I had with the M's looks were the orange gauges and the too big taillights, both fixed for '08. I'm also happy to see Infiniti offering the sport package on the AWD cars. Not a fake one like BMW that's just seats and wheels - the same equipment that the RWD cars get. Now if only they'd bring over that Piano black trim from Japan...
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    I am in my early 50's, live in the NE (south of Boston), and am looking to buy an LPS to keep as long as possible - once my wife's car is paid off in early 2008. I have owned quite a few cars and trucks over the years (Toyota Supra and 4runner, Porsche 914 2.0, BMW 320i, Lexus GS300 Sport Design, Nissan 300Z, and others) and am actually getting tired of the car buying routine, so I am hoping to buy and keep my next car for as many miles as I can - over 200k or more if possible. I am not a high mileage driver (12k a year at most). My wife is not into cars and is leaving the decision entirely up to me, though spending over 60K on a car might become an issue...

    I would like something that is fun to drive, comfortable, has navigation and great audio, and is safe in the winter. I am leaning towards an all wheel drive. So far I have test driven a BMW 535xi (loved driving it but didn't have time to play with the idrive) and the Lexus GS350 awd (which have cool gadgets but seemed a bit cramped and didn't put a smile on my face while driving it like the BMW did). The M and G Infiniti's don't do much for me looks wise and the gas mileage is pretty bad for a car that I plan on keeping long term. I have never been big on Audi or MB because of reliability issues.

    Anyway, it looks like I will probably be deciding between the BMW 535xi and the Lexus 350awd but am still open to suggestions. I do prefer the BMW, but it is quite a bit more money (the 535xi is really pushing my budget) and I am a bit worried about the cost of repairs after the warranty runs out. I have read all the bad reviews about BMW's idrive but I am good on the computer so I don't know if that would be an issue. I like the comfort, gadgets, and long term reliability (perceived?) of the Lexus. The Lexus dealer was much more aggressive and I have received 5 phone calls from them since my test drive, which is a bit much. I would think that I could get a better deal on the GS since they seem desperate to make sales.

    Sorry about the long post. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    We share similar desires in the car attributes and I had cross shopped the Lexus GS AWD, BMW 530xi and the Infinity M35 AWD. All are fine vehicles. The driving dynamics of the BMW are still tops, but I worry about long term maintenance costs, and I hated the I drive. The Infinity was roomy and the flavor was sporty, but the styling and rougher edges of sporty feel did not appeal to me. The Lexus certainly has the brand cache and commendable service centers, but I could not justify the cost when comparably equipped to my selection.

    I selected the Acura RL. It is an amazing value and selling 8-9K below sticker. Many do not like the subtle style and many dismiss it for not having a V8 or 6 speed tranny option. It is not as large as the Infinity but wider and larger trunk (still smallish) than the Lexus. It seemed on par with the BMW dimensions, but again, the BMW driving dynamics are it's signature.

    But the Acura NAVI was exceptional and the content a tremendous value. Content any of these models (AWD, V6 Auto) similarly and the Acura is thousands lower in sticker and certainly a bargain in negotiated price. It comes only in 3 trim levels, and the Tech Package is the most common.

    Acura's brand may not have the luxury cache of the others, but the Honda reliability, value content, Japanese assembly, amazing SHAWD system, Ultra Low Emmisions and high safety ratings made it a very smart choice (if not the most passionate).

    The RL is a sleeper, and sales are low, but I have no regrets on my choice and I see this as not only a long term ownership experience, but somewhat exclusive as so few are on the road. The RL typifies Honda's conservative, well engineered approach. It may not be the best of any one thing, but the total package is very well balanced and the harmony this car exudes may not grab attention, but it sure grows on you and is very easy to live with.

    You may want to give the Acura RL consideration. A Tech Package RL @ 42K out the door may be worth your consideration in the AWD segment.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Although the interior of the bmw lacks a certain refinement, over the years I think you would enjoy it and also the hordes of people who enjoy it`s drive are not just fooling themselves, it does drive nicely...I further think you could get the long term warranty, and then find a mechanic on your own...This way you will have something you are proud of til the day you move on...Tony
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    The RL is a sleeper, and sales are low....

    ...for a reason.
  • vavavavolvovavavavolvo Member Posts: 110
    I agree that the RL is an underrated vehicle. The reliability is otherworldly. It is probably going to get a pretty major refresh for 09. Most predictions are for more room, particularly in the back seat, and a more powerful engine. The current model was also tops in side impact protection along with the S80, while the 535 --unfortunately--ranked dead last. It will be interesting to see what BMW does about that car's poor performance on the side impact test.

    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr081607.html
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yep, if I was in the market right now I would definitely have the RL at the top of my list. I have a 2002 RL and it is just still to good to part with. 80,000 miles and just getting broken in good.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I am hoping to buy and keep my next car for as many miles as I can - over 200k or more if possible. I am not a high mileage driver (12k a year at most)

    Honestly, I think what you are suggesting is prescription for disaster. The average 1990 200K mile BMW 5 may still start when you turn the key, but today's 5 is about a million times more complex than its 17 year old counterpart. Nobody is going to give you an extended warranty for that long.

    Reliability for the Acura RL has improved from the lousy '05 and '06 years, but all of those electronics are still going to have problems eventually. On top of that, the RL is really a mediocre car. I can't think of a single thing it does better than any other car in the segment. 17 years with one would amount to torture. Sure its cheap, but the TL is cheaper - and better. You mentioned fuel economy as a sticking point, the RL's FE is no better than the Infiniti's.

    Reliability for the AWD GS350 is so bad that it lost its recommended rating from CR, thanks to multiple below average scores. Hell has frozen over, a new Lexus has scored far worse in CR than both BMW and Audi. The GS is the worst new Lexus in the company's history, this is a serious black spot on their record.

    If I had to be stuck with one of the current crop of LPS, my choice would be an '08 M45x. It's great fun to drive, and has best in class reliability. My suggestion though, is to buy a slightly used CPO car. Get the BMW if you like it. Drive it until the CPO warranty runs out, and then get rid of it. Is the buying experience so horrible that you want to be stuck with a 200K car that constantly needs repairs costing far more than its even worth?
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    tamparl - thanks for the info. to be honest I haven't looked at Acura yet. I will check out the RL. For the last 3 years I have been driving a Camry XLE V6 which is extremely reliable and is the most boring car I can imagine. It has taken the fun out of driving. That is why I am looking for something more entertaining to drive now. Is the RL fun to drive?
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    Thanks Tony, I will look into the long term warranty. Normally I don't believe in them but in this case it might be worth it.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If you want warranty coverage, and you don't do it yourself, stick with leasing...it costs more but you do not have to worry about selling or costly repairs out of warranty.

    The cheaper way is to buy and sell in 3-4 years but considering the resales value, it's more or less risky depending on, well, the dependability and desirability at the time of resale.

    Look at what is selling now in your target vehicle class. IMHO, the choices at the top of this category are the Merc E, BMW 5, and the M's from Infinity. These should return at the upper end of value after you decide to sell because of the higher demand and dependability. This could change but it should be a good guide unless you wait 17 years to resell!

    Regards,
    OW
  • vavavavolvovavavavolvo Member Posts: 110
    " but all of those electronics are still going to have problems eventually. On top of that, the RL is really a mediocre car. I can't think of a single thing it does better than any other car in the segment. 17 years with one would amount to torture"

    I wouldn't bet against Acura reliability, for electronics or anything else. I have a 16 year old Legend which in its entire lifetime the check engine light came on once...only once....(and promptly reset itself after I restarted the car). The car is still a joy to drive.

    I also can't think of a single thing it does better than any other car in the segment. It is just very good at everything it does, making it a great car to drive and own.
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    lexusguy... it is pretty sad that it seems there isn't a car that is worth keeping long term in this price range. I know the M and G Infiniti's get good reviews, but I don't care for the interior dashboard styling, the gas mileage is really bad, and the 0-60 times are not as good as they should be (not that I will be racing). Since I am sure that gas prices will continue to rise over the next few years that will be a big factor.

    As far as the buying experience being so horrible, it really depends on the dealer/salesperson. I just don't enjoy the experience like I used to. Researching, test driving, and then trying to get the best price is very time consuming and can be quite frustrating.

    I have waited 3+ years to buy a new LPS and and am not all that thrilled with the choices. I did find the Lexus GS350 to be disappointing and have read the CR review, which is grim considering the Lexus reputation. You might be right about Hell freezing over. The GS350 was going to be my fall back car if I couldn't find something more fun to drive. I don't know how soon Lexus can fix the problems the GS has. It is a shame that my 2002 GS got rear ended a few years ago (17k damage and it was never the same) or I would still be driving it and not going through this right now.
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    OW, you make a good point.

    I am not big on leasing since I can't write it off at all. I know that a car isn't a very good investment. At this point the idea of buying a nice/fun car, paying it off, and not having car payments for awhile is very appealing to me. If I need to sell it in 3-4 years then I am back where I started. The problem is that there is no perfect car, most people are partial to the brand they are driving, and everyone has different taste in vehicles, which can make it difficult to find useful reviews. The luck of the draw enters into it also. It is possible to get a car that will run forever or a lemon no matter what car you choose. Some brands and models improve the odds of getting a "good" one more than others...
  • justbassjustbass Member Posts: 11
    Although this class is a bit above my budget, I’ll pipe in.

    The RL is decent enough but not all that fun to drive.
    The Infinitis gas mileage is not great or even good through the entire lineup.
    I have dropped Lexus, I was checking out the ES, and the reliability is very disappointing and they haven’t found fixes for the various problems despite their attempts.
    After all of this, the E Class 320 Blue Tec. Very good gas mileage (diesel), very good power for passing, not too noisy, nice riding, maybe even a little sporty very comfortable front and rear seats. Reliability seems to be getting better. Pricey though.

    I am reading this forum to find a suitable CPO, and then try to convince my wife that it would be a good idea.
    I too, am looking for a vehicle that would be good for the long run, 8 to 10 years of ownership.
  • og_oggilbyog_oggilby Member Posts: 27
    justbass - thanks for piping in! I was looking into the BlueTec but read this on the MB web site: The 2008 E320 BLUETEC does not meet the emissions requirements of California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, or Vermont and is not available in these states.

    ...my wife and I live in Taxachusetts :cry:

    I am getting the feeling that cars are being built as disposables these days. I don't know what happened to Lexus's reliability other than they realized they make a lot more money servicing them than selling them.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    The GS that got the bad review was the AWD GS350. If you can live with the GS RWD, it was rated pretty good and way above average. Must be problems with the all wheel drive.

    Also the GS hybrid was rated as the most reliable car of all in this group! Go figure!

    The RL was also rated very high in reliability.

    Dealerships can vary widely by city but my experience has been that Lexus is tops with Acura not far behind. Infinity I would have to rate poor.

    All new cars are a bad investment. A good late model CPO from Lexus would be better. Maybe the LS? You save a ton on depreciation, get virtually a new car warranty and they still treat you like a king. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Rumor has it that 50-state legal diesels may be available in a year or so.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Dealerships can vary widely by city but my experience has been that Lexus is tops with Acura not far behind. Infinity I would have to rate poor.

    Out of curiosity, do you have any personal experience with Infiniti (not Infinity)?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Sorry about the spelling, my bad. I have never owned an Infiniti but I like them and I am sure they are great cars. I have owned a couple of Maximas and I liked them a lot.

    As far as dealers, yes, I have visited the Infiniti store here a few times while shopping and I always seem to get someone who knows very little about the cars, etc. or someone who just insists that you buy the car NOW and puts on the hard sell.

    Remember that this is just my experience and things like this are very subjective.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tamparltamparl Member Posts: 42
    og,

    The RL is a very flexible vehicle. You can drive it smoothly for most driving and you can toss it in the twisties with the SHAWD. The grip is amazing, never a tire squeal. The car has a smoothness and relaxed feeling that many who desire performance do not appreciate. I would call the RL a sporty touring lux-tech sedan. It is stable, safe, solid, wonderfully built, and confident when I want to get on it.

    Only you can make your decision. The RL has grown on me in the last year that I am more excited driving it now than I was when I traded my 05TL for it. The TL was edgey, but not refined and US assembly was not on par with the RL. I wanted a more sophisticated, refined ride.

    If you require the best of any one thing, the RL may not suit your needs as it is simply great at many things. And yes, it is a low seller, and underappreciated, but you should get what you want. I, personally have no less enjoyment of this car because it does not meet the standards of others or the masses (most of who paid much more for a not much more scoot.

    I only chimed in to offer my opinion as we shared similar attributes for a new car (from your original post).

    Many here do not appreciate the RL, which is fine (the didn't write the check), but don't decide for what others want, get what you want. There are enough sour grapes around here to open a vineyard.

    Whatever you get, I hope it pleases you.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    You can "buy" reliability, if you can afford to wait for a car that is one MY old, is CPO'd and is also, relatively young mileage-wise.

    If it is a BMW, you can even "buy" the required maintenance from BMW that will extend the 50,000 maintenace. You will have yourself a vehicle that will be somewhat lower in initial cost and will have ALL costs for perhaps 100,000 be -- to you, out of pocket, that is -- $0. This "bought and paid for" insurance does not increase the reliability nor decrease the desirability of such a car.

    This approach simply mitigates your monetary expenses.

    Our BMW and Audi experience would tend to trak with your expectations: these cars (and I am certain not ONLY these cars) are breathtakingly expensive to maintain and repair outside of the mfgr's programs.

    But, with all due respect to the reputation of some of the other cars (those, perhaps from Japan), they too are expensive to maintain and repair -- despite some anecdotal evidence. CR currently has downgraded the Lexus G's, in fact. Even the Audi A6 retains a "recommended" status, as if that means much (CR is great at picking dishwashers however.)

    The point is, the LPS class of cars discussed and disected daily here are probably more alike than they are different. Each brings personality traits to the party -- and you have to decide which ones suit you best.

    The Lexus, TO ME, is the one I would pay the least amount for -- for it is too serene in the performance department. The Infiniti is the Japanese BMW and the Acura is the Japanese Audi (sorta, and only sorta since it is, fundamentally a FWD car, the FWD bias is so strong, whereas the Audi, even at present is a 50-50 biased ride.)

    The Cadillac, with that new V6 DI is, presently, heavily discounted and already comes with a 100,000 powertrain warranty -- and the Acura, as noted, has received very favorable reviews despite lackluster sales (it looks like a plump Accord to many of us.)

    Perhaps the Cadillac is worth a harder look, for value alone -- and it can be equipped with both technology/performance bits and AWD.

    Perhaps, despite its Accord leanings, the Acura RL also is worthy of your consideration for the value prop alone.

    If money were not in one's way, it is hard to resist the 535x. But for performance, luxury and fun an A6 4.2 SLine if one can be found, would be a great ride -- and about 15 minutes per year can also be a great value.

    Bang for the buck -- ???? Well, again the new CTS 3.6DI AWD with the FE2 suspension and the lux package is "almost a BMW 5 series" -- at least if you evaluate cars largely by their wheelbase and width.
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