Has Honda's run - run out?

andre1969 · November 2005

Studebaker was one of, if not the biggest automaker in the US. And back in the 50's and 60's wasn't Renault one of the bigger import names in the US? I know Volkswagen was usually the biggest, and Opel was usually up there too.

lemmer · November 2005

Fiat is pretty huge. Maybe not healthy, but big.

nippononly · November 2005

From my experience with these brands, yes, Honda has never clamped down on these issues as well as Toyota. If you want all the "stuff", big (engine, transmission) and little (power windows, wipers, lights) to work without fail for the first 100K miles, your best bet (note that I said "bet". No carmaker is infallible) is the Toyota, even though the Honda will provide you with the superlative drive. "Dull but reliable" is not a stylish tag line for advertising, but it is what a lot of people look for when they are car-shopping, and Toyota provides it in spades.

Subaru is between these two: more reliable than the Honda on the little stuff, but everything will make more noise and fuss doing what it is supposed to do as the car ages.

And Nissan, forget Nissan. They are all over the map. It's like GM: you never know exactly what you are going to get. Is your Nissan one of the good ones, or one of the bad ones? It is certainly one of the ones with ample evidence of cost-cutting, something these other three disguise much better.

stickguy · November 2005

when they made their reputation was rally the '80's-early '90's, right? Well, that was the time period where they way overengineered and overbuilt the mechanicals (engine/tranny, at least the manual). Plus, they basically sold Civics and Accords, which ranged from totally stripped, to "loaded" but still pretty simple. Plus, they were all 4 cyls, and fairly light.

GIven this situation, it was pretty easy for them to be long lasting, since the big stuff was built that way, and there wasn't much else to go wrong. Plus, owners were so fanatical, they only cared that it ran well with 200K on the clock, even if every accessory was either broken of had fallen off. Or rusted away.

No power seats, auto climate, etc. to go wrong. Plus the ATs weren't particularly stressed.

ateixeira · November 2005

American Motors!

4th biggest in the US at one time, right?

Any how, it happens. Chrysler bought Jeep and Eagle but AMC basically folded.

-juice

ateixeira · November 2005

I'm not sure it's fair to say Toyota is quicker to clamp down on the issues - remember the Sludge Debacle? They resisted tooth-and-nail, blamed owners, and stalled. Intense pressure, lawsuits, and the internet finally made them cave in. Meanwhile some owners had to come up with $8000 out of their own pockets or had nothing to drive.

Meanwhile Honda had the tranny issue and covered them under warranty with little resistance.

So in that case it was the opposite - Honda clamped down, Toyota stalled until the bean counters figured it would cost them more in bad PR to continue doing nothing.

-juice

carlisimo · November 2005

I agree; Honda's Golden Age is over for now - but that doesn't mean they're in a Dark Age either.

I know friends who've had problems with their Civics that go against the reputation Honda built for itself. I think it's growing pains, and they'll get it under control. They have the health and prowess to be able to do so. In the long run, it'll be good that they were made aware of their increasing blandness and decreasing superiority.

It wasn't just mechanicals. I think the '91 Civic and '94 Accord are honestly the most modern looking cars of their age. For one thing, examples in good shape still look great; for another, other cars from the early 'nineties tended to be pretty ugly by our standards.

I'd say Honda was working at 110% back then, and most others were working at 70%. Now everyone's closer to 90%.

carlisimo · November 2005

Quick notes about those failed companies, which I'm familiar with from Spain:

Yugo failed for two reasons: people treated them like disposable cars and didn't do basic maintenance, and the Yugoslavian Civil War destroyed its networks and even its factories.
They're back as ZMW (or something like that) now, at home.

Peugeot/Citroen and Alfa Romeo have always had polarizing design, great suspensions, and poor quality. Americans put little emphasis on suspensions, and we're conservative when it comes to design, so they really didn't have a chance here.

Fiat was a protected brand in Italy and that made it complacent almost to death.

Daihatsu was incorporated into Toyota, and now they focus on kei-cars: tiny 'cars' well suited to Japan's crowded environment, with special registration and 600cc engines.

Daewoo is capable of designing one good car now and then, which isn't enough for them to be independent. The Aveo's popular here and in Europe, though they're being rebadged as Chevies over there too, as of this year (and there it's called the Kalos, not the Aveo).

Renault has made a resurgence in Europe with a reputation for safety and practicality in small and cheap packages.

While they were here, none of them had a selling point that resonated with Americans. If they came back, I think their selling points STILL wouldn't resonate with Americans as much as they do in their home markets.

Honda's strengths (reliability, mileage, ease-of-driving, feel, interior quality, fresh but quiet styling) were relevant to our market, so here they are. They've adapted to our market too, so I think they can expect a lot of continuity here.

boomchek · November 2005

I've alweays wondered how Isuzu was able to stay afloat here. I know they're partially owned and operated by GM but it seems like their model line has been slowly shrinking and queitly disappearing over the last decade. They used to have the Impulse, the Stylus, Rodeo, Vehicross, Axiom, Trooper, at least in Canada. From what

I see now I think they only have the Colorado/Canyon based pickup and the Ascender. And Isuzu pulled out of Canada all together.

andre1969 · November 2005

the only reason Isuzu is still around is for their Duramax Diesel and those light/medium duty cabover commercial trucks? Supposedly the Duramax is a good engine, and I think Isuzu and Mitsubishi together must own that particular end of the commercial truck market.

larsb · November 2005

Fiat might have at some point in Europe been selling a lot of cars, but they had nowhere NEAR the volume of Honda worldwide, ever in their existence.

lemmer · November 2005

Except for outselling them from 1997-2000 according to this chart (the only years on the chart).

worldwide sales

larsb · November 2005

Well, if that chart data is true, then you have indeed found a "major car company" which went out of business. Fiat must have sold something other than "passenger cars" - did they sell commercial trucks also?

But don't expect that to happen to Honda..... :shades:

lemmer · November 2005

I guess that I missed the beginning of the conversation. Now that I have read the last couple of pages, I agree that the topic is about Honda's huge run of success, not the possibility of closing up shop.

By the way, Fiat is still in business. In fact, I think all the companies you listed are still in business except Yugo.

How about Rover as an example of a big car company that went out of business?

larsb · November 2005

Well, if you are judging it by 2005 totals, Honda is doing swimmingly well.

If lower sales and shuffling models are indicators of "success rate slowing down" then Honda is not in that category.

Their sales are solid, if not specatcular, and they have not done a lot of model shuffling lately.

explorerx4 · November 2005

my interpretation of the thread title.

acura needs more volume. from my local observations, people are not stepping up to acura from honda. the civic and accord are good sellers, but they lose the customers after that. there were a good number of accords in my neighborhood, but they were replaced something other than a honda product. the first neighbor who had a gen 2 ody, did not replace it with a gen 3.
basically they can't afford a mistake with the civic or accord because the competition is getting closer. i think the new civic will do well, although i haven't actually seen one, which does surprise me.

gee35coupe · November 2005

We currently have a Civic, Accord and a MDX. The MDX is new(to us) and we traded an Odyssey to get it. I'm an "old" Toyota guy so I also have a 1994 LS400 from back when Honda mand Toyota really knew something about "soft touch" interiors.

We have plans for an RL in the near future.

explorerx4 · November 2005

based on the numbers i see posted here, acuras are low volume sellers. my guess is that lexus sells in several multiples of those numbers. that is what honda needs.
if hondas lineup works for you, that's great.

gee35coupe · November 2005

profit. If Honda is making plenty of money on what they sell, they should be OK. At least they aren't giving cars away or having to run fire sales to clear most inventory. GM is in a lot of trouble but they sell a LOT of units.

nippononly · November 2005

Hondas don't tend to be super price-competitive, except for the base models of the super-volume Accord and Civic. Now back when they really were the cat's meow compared to the rest of the market, they earned the right to be more expensive than similar models from other manufacturers, but the playing field has evened out a lot more these days. Honda's resale values for used models are even more skewed. I like Hondas a lot, but it is true the golden days are over.

explorerx4 · November 2005

honda is subsidizing a lot of leases and selling vehicles below invoice. mabybe not the levels of some other manufacturers, but they are doing it.

gee35coupe · November 2005

It's usually to clear out inventory. And usually it's not on the top level products. I got in on the "clearance" lease special on the outgoing Ody. 2 years at $249 month. But it was only on the cloth versions. Not the loaded leather equipped ones. Sure they have "sales" but they don't have wholesale givaways.

"Invoice" ain't nothing but another number. It's really just as arbitrary as MSRP. Dealers have more spiffs and incentives than we'll ever know.

explorerx4 · November 2005

how do you know honda dealer spliffs and incentives aren't more generous than other manufacturers?

gee35coupe · November 2005

I just said that there are many that aren't advertised. Such as a bonus with every 5th car etc. All those figure into the "true" cost to the dealer. "Invoice" is just as fluid as MSRP.

anonymousposts · November 2005

both the TL, TSX, and MDX were selling pretty well. The RL may not be doing as well as Acura hoped but they are selling.

What car in the Accord's segment is selling better than the Accord with NO rebates? Even the Camry has rebates. The new Civic seems to be selling well. I know the local dealers here can't keep them in stock.

carguy58 · November 2005

I'm hearing posters in the last 40 posts say Honda saying Honda should merge with GM. Thats crazy. GM has alot more problems than Honda right now. Thats awkward to even make a staement say that. I even hear posters say people should return to buying do buying domestic and that a Neon is better than a Civic. I'll agree a Ford Focus is on par with 01-05 Civic but a Neon? No way! BTw, the Neon is dead and is being replaced in Dodge's line-up by the Caliber. General Motors I grew up on because my parents grew up on the domestic Big 3 buy american theme in the 80's. I don't like their interiors of late. Chrysler and Ford are ok even though the Neon for Chrysler is on the chopblock. GM I like the Eqinox. The G6 and Impala are ok looking but I wouldn;t buy them over a Mazda or a Honda.

Oh yeah of Honda's glory days I mean well they're quality ratings are still up there. My only concern about Honda is styling and problems with first year model quality. The 03 Accord in its first year of bodystyle had issue's rattling & sqeauking. The TL had the same thing. I wish Honda would get a handle on these sqeauks amd rattles with first year models. The 01 Civic, 02 RSX, and 04 TL were downgraded to average reliability by CR in their first year of bodystyle. The 01 Civic and 02 RSX are now above average in reliability by CR so my conclusion on the 01 Civic and 02 RSX is they both had some problems mechanically early on in their life cycle but both have aged better than alot of cars mechanically. The reliability verdict is still out on the 04 TL however.

On the Ridgeline's styling I like the front of it but the back end bothers me. I wouldn't buy one over the Ford F-150 myself despite being a Honda fan. In my opinion, Honda is not experienced enough with building a heavy-duty pick-up yet. In my opinion Honda, Toyota, and, Nissan I don't think well ever build a pick-up to compete with the Domestic Big 3 offerings. Look at GM and Chrysler they don't have a Accord/Camry/Altima fighter yet. Maybe Ford does but than again the Fusion is based off of the Mazda 6. I know Chrysler has the 300 but the 300 is not a mid-sized car.

Oh yeah Honda styling, I don;t like the refresh of the Honda Pilot. Its just doesn;t look right.

I heard a post talking about Nissan and you never know what you are going to get. I mean sure in the 90's Nissan built some elegant but bland cars but their quality was still up there with Honda and Toyota. Ever since the Carl Ghson era started at Nissan with the release of the 02 Altima their quality ratings are like Mercedes like of late: Nissan's quality ratings have gone down in the past few years in both CR's rating's and JD powers. In opinion Ghosn did way too much costing at once. His cost cutting shows up in current Nissan interiors and in their latest reliability ratings. Iwill give credit to Ghson because Nissan is one of the most profitable automakers currently but I think Nissan's cost cutting is catching up to them. Last month Nissan sales were down 13.3% from October 2004 figures. That to me is a big monthly sales loss for a automaker that has been the hottest automaker since 2002 in terms of sales and gaining market share.

carguy58 · November 2005

"Honda's resale values for used models are even more skewed."

I agree Honda's resales are not as good as they were in the 90's but the last generation Civic you have to remember was not styled as sleekly as the 92-95 and 96-00. The 03 Accord also suffered the same fate in the styling department. The 90, 94, and 98 Accord looked sleeker than the 03 does. To me styling is so important nowadays. I think the 01-05 Civic lost alot of sales to the Ford Focus back a few years ago before the pile of recalls hit the Focus hard. I think also the 2001 Hyundai Elantra also took some 01-05 Civic sales. To a less lesser extent even the 99-03 Mazda Protege gained some sales too. The big loss in Civic sales was the 2003 Corolla. The 96-00 Civic outsold the 98-02 Corolla but the Corolla got beefed up in size and has been outselling the Civic since its early 02 as an 03 model launch I think.

"I like Hondas a lot, but it is true the golden days are over."

I agree Honda's golden years were probably 1994-2000 when the generation X crowd was buying Honda's like crazy. I did look at Honda sales from 1994-2000 and Honda gained over like 250,000-300,000 new customers I think in that 6-7 year period. Now the young crowd(generation Y)is going for the Mazda 3 and Scion TC now instead of the Civic and Accord. On the other hand yeah the competition has caught up but that doesn;t mean Honda is all of a sudden a bad company. I am generation X person and I just don't like Honda's like I did in the 90's. I like their Acura line-up but styling on the Civic and Accord Sedan has slipped in my opinion since the mid 90's.

The Accord and Civic sales have gotten hit hard by models like the Nissan Altima, Mazda 3, and Scion TC of late. I should also add Hyundai has been adding customers like crazy in the past few years and that definately makes a negative effect on Honda sales. Honda did go through a sales downturn in from 1991-1993 but I think that was more of people giving the domestic Big 3 automakers a second chance after some Big 3 buyers left their domestic big 3 cars in the early-mid 80's for Japanese cars. Once generation X came in 1994 Honda was back on a roll again. I don;t think Honda will ever see a big sales increase like they did from 1994-2000. The 1985 or 1986-1989 period Honda also had big time sales growth too.

carguy58 · November 2005

Well overall sales for the brand have been up since the release since the 99 Acura TL. I see alot of 99-03 and 04+ TL's, TSX's and MDX's running around and even 05 RL's. I think most Honda customers if they don't go to Acura from their Honda Accord per say they'll go to BMW or Infinti. I don;t think a Honda owner is going from their Accord to a Mercedes or a Caddy. BTW, I wonder how many Honda or even Acura owners switch to Lexus.

Honda is hardly on the edge of bankruptcy or anything so there is no needed to worry now in terms of the company's financial being for now. From a styling direction standpoint there is need for improvement though.

ctalk · November 2005

From a styling direction standpoint there is need for improvement though.
I agree, a lot of their vehicles are criticized for having bad styling. Although the 2004 TL was a hit.

explorerx4 · November 2005

how many cars does acura actually sell?

ron_m · November 2005

The current TL is a great-looking sedan. So are the new Lexus IS series sedans. The IS250 and IS350.

When Honda first released the 2003 Accord sedan I didn't particularly care for its body style at all. However, I must admit that it has really grown on me the last year or so. My personal favorite Accord sedan body style was the fifth generation 1994-1997 models. 5th gen Accords just look a bit sleeker in profile to me. During my daily commute I see several 5th and 6th generation Accord sedans on the highways. In fact, I see more of these cars on the road than any other make or model. It's simply amazing to me how many of these Accords are still out there running and looking good.

Last month GM and Ford sales were down 22% and 23% respectively for year-on-year sales. Both Toyota and Honda had sales increases for the month of October. As GM and Ford sales continue to decline, it will be Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infiniti that will pick up the majority of the newly defecting Big 3 customers. Honda will be able to compete globally with no major problems. Asian vehicles are becoming more and more popular in Europe these days for a combination of reasons, and Honda will be there to capture additional market share.
Lots of Big 3 brand loyalists in America are now writing off their former favorite badges altogether. Understandably so. They just don't feel as though the value is there for what they're spending their hard-earned money on. Honda is just too smart to sit back and let several other companies surpass them in the global automotive market, so look for the styling to get better and the build quality and downstream reliability to return to the level of the golden years within the next 3-4 years.

Ron M.

rsholland · November 2005

I think the Ridgelines (sales) problems fall into 3 areas, and in this order:

1) Styling. There's no question the styling is shocking, and in some areas downright ugly. I think Honda "stylists" (not designersbut stylists) did an absolutely horrible job executing the the fender flares that surround the wheel cut outs. Frankly I can't ever recall a worse job on any truck. The fender flares flat out ruin the profile of the vehicle. There are other "styling" gaffaws as well, but none rank with the fender flares.

If Honda had just made the fender flares simple (instead of being so over-designed), like what's found on the Ford Super Duty, the profile would look a hundred times better. Believe me.

Also, they should have offered it with larger (more macho-looking) 265-sized tires. The Ridgeline comes across visually much like a "midnight cowboy," or a "dandy" at a dude ranch. In some ways it's over-dressed, in other ways it's under-dressed.

2) The lack of a low range (whether it's needed or not) is a "must-have" for many "truckers." By not having that feature, Honda lost a good portion of the trucking audience. These folks just won't take the vehicle seriously without that feature. Remember, these guys are skeptical of ANYTHING newand couple that with not having a low rangeand you've lost that group for good.

Having a low range is in many ways symbolic of "work and play capability." Without it, it has a "wuss" image; with it, it would have a much better chance of being "accepted" by the trucker crowd.

3) Price. This has been discussed at length here, so no need for me to repeat what's been said. I will say this though. If Honda had nailed the styling, and if they had offered a low range, pricing would be far less of an issue.

In some ways Honda shot themselves in the foot. They come out with a radical product (for this audience), give it awkward styling, iffy off-road capability, and price it high. It's really a shame, as the vehicle is so good in so many other ways. Honda will get it right eventually, but they should have done so much better coming out of the starting gate.

Even so, it's still a great vehicleand I still say it will have a profound impact on future truck design and engineering from other brands.

Bob

varmint · November 2005

I forget who mentioned it, but if we're going to question Acura's existence based on sales, we should look at the actual numbers. Here's a snapshot of those marques for which I was able to find Oct. YTD sales.

Cadillac... 197,717
Acura... 177,107
Benz... 174,593
Lincoln... 116,438
Infiniti.. 113,182
Volvo... 106,431
Audi... 66,315
Jaguar... 26,042

explorerx4 · November 2005

bmw 253k, lexus 232k. acuara is closer than i thought, numberswise.

nippononly · November 2005

are all over the place around here now. So I guess that model update has been well received. And I see that Honda has jumped right in with the '06 Accord refresh, offering a $199/mo lease on the LX-SE. I wonder if the Accord's numbers will jump back up now that it has been restyled. That would prove a lot of Edmunds posters right! :-)

ateixeira · November 2005

Don't you love it when people pronounce it with 3 syllables?

They look like they're in trouble. The X-type reached downmarket and was supposed to increase sales. Oops.

-juice

PF_Flyer · November 2005

That's FOUR syllables isn't it??

jag u a er

imidazol97 · November 2005

A local dealer advertisement says it
yaaag u waaaar
I don't think I quite got the speech pattern but it sounded like t he lady was british and was at a high tea party and was talking down to peons about her Jaguar as if they mispronounce it all the time but that's okay cause you can't expect much of commoners... attitude.

ateixeira · November 2005

Some times I program my Garmin NAV to speak in a British accent and I pretend I'm in a Bentley. LOL

Back to Honda, do the NAV systems speak lots of languages?

-juice

boomchek · November 2005

In Canada the Honda Navi has a bilingual capacity and its programmed to receive english and french commands.

nwng · November 2005

someone should come up with a "rough language nav"

"Goddxmn it, you missed the turn"
"you missed the exit, moron"
"you want dunkin donuts? here's your freakin donut"

varmint · November 2005

LOL

Maybe that would be a separate NAV for the backseat driver.

grbeck · November 2005

That could be a good screening tool...if you can't properly pronounce it, you aren't allowed to buy it.

andre1969 · November 2005

Jaguar is four syllables in this case. You pronounce it "Ford Mon Day Oh" :P

ateixeira · November 2005

Good one, Andre.

I would like to see NAV obtain a little more personality. The soft female voice is a start. But what if it could recognize the driver and say, "Good Morning, Andre" according to which key was used.

Why stop there? It could say "You look nice today" and maybe "How 'bout a cup o' latte at your favorite coffee shop?".

Beyond that, what about a Hologram of a female so you could "see" Ms. Navigation?

OK, I'll lay off the drugs...

-juice

nwng · November 2005

ala andromeda, which is pretty much where I wanted it to be :shades:

yea, and what hologram would your wife choose? It's always a two way street!

How about this one: you can switch the nav into a travel/historic guide. When you travel and pass through a historic landmark/point of interest, the nav will pipe the info through the speakers. And your kids can learn about different things along the way instead of zoning out staring at the dvd/ps2.

boomchek · November 2005

That would be an awesome idea with the history guide in the nav system. I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years you see that.

It would be like your own personal tour guide.

andre1969 · November 2005

but what would happen if you drove your car down through a "Red Light" district? I could just see it now when some unsuspecting family with their happy little children turn down the wrong street in the future, and suddenly that nice hologram model sprouts high-heeled spiky boots a riding crop, and just enough leather to leave a little to the imagination and (barely) not trigger an NC-17 rating! :surprise:

I'm presuming that if these things of the future would be programmable, they would at least have age-appropriate safeguards to them. I could also see the kids playing with them and doing all sorts of fun things. Heck, kids will be kids! I mean, when I was a kid I had one of those old TI99-4/a computers that Bill Cosby used to do ads for, and it had a speech synthesizer. One of the first things I tried to do was get it to cuss! And I'm sure the kids of the future will have even wilder imaginations! :shades:

carlisimo · November 2005

I wouldn't worry about the kids, but the driver. In other words, you :P

ateixeira · November 2005

Maybe the windows would have an LCD coating and the NAV would automatically tint them dark in the red light districts?

I like the idea of the "tour guide", that's clever. Especially if you could turn it on or off.

-juice

Has Honda's run - run out?

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