Has Honda's run - run out?

gee35coupe · February 2006

Was just about strippo as far as luxury features. It was pretty much built for autocrossing. The new Si is has almost as much luxury as my 94 LS400. The Type R's engine was notoriously peaky. At least the new 2L has some power in the lower RPM's.

I paid $16k for my 03 Si. A raging value in my book. And for all the people saying they hated it, I got $12.5 2 years and 45K later. Not bad in my book.

A agree with nippon that the new Si is quite a bargain. There are few cars that offer the performance and content at that price. If it werent for those gaudy red gauges and premium fuel requirement I would want one. But I'll just settle for a EX-Nav instead.

ateixeira · February 2006

Isn't it a bit lighter than most competitors? You gotta look and power and weight.

Torque ain't all that great, so weight it down and it might feel slow on those long hill climbs, but that's about it.

Note: I should have mentioned that in the Sienna, you can get 8 seats *or* AWD, but not both. Bummer.

-juice

robertsmx · February 2006

Engine torque isn't much (as much as can be expected of a 2-liter normally aspirated motor), but with the kind of gearing Si runs... that aspect is taken care of.

ateixeira · February 2006

Good point, you just might need to shift once or twice to get there.

I could not sample shift feel because they remove shift knobs for auto shows nowadays.

-juice

rockylee · February 2006

Seriously I'm not understanding all the "hype" the Civic is getting. The stats are above average, but are they that superior ???? I guess if I was a Honda fan I'd expect more. Especially since Honda is suppose to be the benchmark or one below in so many segments. I'd wait for the Pontiac G4 GXP to get a real drivers car.

-"What you got now is alot of show and not much go"

Rocky

gee35coupe · February 2006

Even if I were to buy the rest of that post, it went totally off track when it said wait for a..a...a.....Pontiac?!?!?! Just dam.

bumpy · February 2006

Yeah, I've got to go with Rocky on this one. The 2006 Civic isn't bad, but 200hp isn't very impressive for something as large as an R32 Skyline. Honda left a lot on the table.

Now, if they put that Si motor in the Fit...

robertsmx · February 2006

Sorry, but Pontiacs are far from being a real driver's car. Civic Si, is one of the best driver's car out there in $20K price class. Not everything can be measured in numbers...

gee35coupe · February 2006

I mean after you get it past customs and all that? Edmunds should have some type of filter for posts like that. There are very few cars that match the Civic for content, capability, and value.

bumpy · February 2006

Depends on where you are. US costs are ridiculously expensive, but Canadians can bring in a 200hp GTS-t for maybe $US 15k or so. I didn't say the Civic was a crap pile, but is it really anything more than an Integra Type R?

gee35coupe · February 2006

I guess we'll never know. BUT the RSX-S costs a lot more than $19.9K. And that ain't no Type-R. And that Skyline won't have a warranty and NO dealer support network. But hey what's an apples to apples comparison worth anyway?

rockylee · February 2006

Pal the Integra Type-R actually would "Run" and was a pocket rocket. Honda hasn't built a true drivers car for the die hard gear heads since.

Rocky

anythngbutgm · February 2006

hahahahaha lol big time.

best 30 grand I could have spent. For the same price there is NOTHING like this...

varmint · February 2006

Honda hasn't built a true drivers car for the die hard gear heads since.

S2000

rockylee · February 2006

Yeah whatever.......The Integra Type-R would smoke the S2000 like a cheap cigar. Look at the track times and get back to me.

Rocky

gee35coupe · February 2006

And the S2000 is a RWD convertible. Never mind the fact that a Type R is near impossible to come across right now. Also besides the fact that niether of those cars cost the $19,900 that the Si cost. But that's beside the point. I really don't think there's much chance of any of us having to worry about actually buying a S2000 or a Type-R and taking it to the track. Whereas it is withing the realm of possibility to run down to the Honda store and buy an Si.

I mean if you want to keep this discussion on whether the Si is a real value or not. But it seems this discussion has gone is some other direction.

anythngbutgm · February 2006

I would add the RSX S or even a TSX for other "Drivers cars" that Honda put forth on the market. But don't forget Rock, the Civic was one of the icons that got the whole "Sport compact" craze started...

varmint · February 2006

Well, I guess if the S2000 isn't a "real driver's car", then Porsche and BMW need to head back to the drawing board. Cuz the S2K has whipped their products pretty good in terms of performance. Nissan's 350Z and a few others have been beaten by the S2K.

If we set the bar that high, anything short of a 1/4 midget with a hemi welded to it starts to look a little soft.

However, if we're just talking about offering a high performance vehicle for enthusiasts to drive... maybe it's your criteria that are whacked. Just a thought...

robertsmx · February 2006

I didn't say the Civic was a crap pile, but is it really anything more than an Integra Type R?

Integra Type-R was a stripped down to the basics track car, produced in extremely limited numbers (few hundred each year, world wide), and considering inflation based on 2001 pricing, would carry an MSRP of $27,100 in 2005.

While Civic Si is only slightly more powerful (may be 10 HP or so, at peak, and likely more across every other engine speed due to aid of a larger displacement motor), it is essentially a luxury car compared to the Type-R, that can still deliver impressive performance, and all for $20K.

Besides, if you choose to compare ITR directly to Civic Si... you should now already see how much more Civic Si is offering today compared to what ITR did in its day (besides thousands more units sold to Honda).

ubbermotor · February 2006

Actually, the Civic Si was a bit of an also ran to the early sport compact craze. The early years saw GTI's and GLH's battling with Turbo Escorts. Even the Colt Turbo was there before the Civic.

gee35coupe · February 2006

And I don't think any of those matched the Civic in terms of refinement. They all came in about 130hp. Even the GLH was around that number unless you got the very limited edition Shelby.

The GTI didn't get any real power until the VR6, and that engine was VERY thirsty and heavy. Not to mention the GTI had a twist beam rear suspension up until this generation. The SI got wishbones back in 1988 with the Civic redesign.

The Colt/Mirage Turbo was all motor and no handling. Not to mention prone to self destruct. That's why there are none left. Same with the Escort.

The Civic was the first to combine power, refinement, AND durability. Turbo motors are usually the first to die when it come to long term upkeep.

nippononly · February 2006

the battle of two camps.

There are those who prefer the stripped-down, essence-of-racer type cars, who loved the idea of the ITR, and older cars like the turbo Colts. They are fans of the Evo now. :-)

The SI has always been more about balance: decent power, very good handling, and decent driver amenities - a car you could easily use as a daily driver, or take to the track without spending too much to make it track-worthy. It was never the fastest in the bunch, although I daresay a stock '07 SI would beat the last imported ITR (not the current JDM-only model) in any race you care to arrange. Better power down lower in the range = better launches. Slightly better power at the top end, peaking at a lower rpm too. And it is no also-ran in the handling department either. Even the ITR's limited slip is also standard in today's SI.

nippononly · February 2006

I would love to see that comparo: Honda vs itself. Pit an RSX-S against an SI against the '01 ITR against an S2000 (just for fun) and see who wins. Is the S2000 a ringer in that group? Leave it out in that case.

habitat1 · February 2006

"Yeah whatever.......The Integra Type-R would smoke the S2000 like a cheap cigar. Look at the track times and get back to me."

Rocky, Rocky, Rocky. What are you doing over here from your day job defending the future of GM??? Don't get me wrong, glad you can manage to say nice things about an Acura product, but I just wish they were accurate.

I owned an Integra and drove every model, including the Type R. I also owned a 2002 Honda S2000. The fact that I now own a Porsche 911S has not clouded my memory of how damn good that S2000 was, and I am still quick to recommend it over a base Boxster or pre-2005 Boxster S to anyone that asks.

Apparantly, in wiggling through the Edmunds maze to get here from the GM boards, you bumped your head rather hard. The Integra Type R was a nicely souped up FWD sporty coupe. Period. Could it keep pace with my FWD 2004 Acura TL 6 speed? Definitely not in a straight line, possibly in the curves on a smooth road, not on a rough road at all. As a FWD coupe it was one of the best in its class. But that's like me saying I'm the best over 45 weekend golfer in my group. Not exactly the same as beating Tiger Woods.

I used to think I was partial to the S2000 because, at the time, it was all I could justify spending on a "fun" car. Now I know better. The S2000 impressed me because it truly is a world class sports car. Not to be confused with an affordable FWD sporty coupe. Ever.

rockylee · February 2006

It had atleast 230 hp. something the Civic Si could only dream about. BTW- your over-rated S2000 has 240 hp. and weighs significantly more and thus the Integra-R is faster 0-60, salaom, Skidpad, basically better at everything but comfort.

However continue to glorify the "H2K"!!!!!
I am unbiased on Honda products, and yes a GM layal guy. I however am not the one who's bumped their head hard enough to get a "concussion :P " and distort the facts from fantasies. Why not give the "R" it's over due respect on the track.

:shades:
Rocky

nippononly · February 2006

a true ITR fan, huh Rocky?

The type-R never got higher than 195 hp in stock form - check here:

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/acura/integra/100000493/specs.html

It was a wonderful skateboard with a hard ride and handling most people can only dream of. But it had its own drawbacks, too. That's why the new RSX-S was considered such an advancement of the Integra in 2002 - it could beat the very limited edition type-R in most situations, yet cost less, was easier to find, and was more comfortable to drive.

basically, the old ITR was outdated in a market that had moved on by 2001. The old Integra ran on for 8 years, altogether too long, while Honda tried to figure out if it wanted to kill it in America (to class up the Acura line) or update it. Now the same fear exists: will Honda kill the RSX this tima around, or will there be an updated 2007?

Mum's the word. :mad:

rockylee · February 2006

Well their must of been a 230hp. version made. I remember reading about it in MT.

Rocky

nippononly · February 2006

195 hp was the peak for stock cars in the U.S. Certainly everyone and their mother has done aftermarket preps on these cars, boosting power in the process. And Japanese home market cars that were never imported here had more power in stock form too.

And MT certainly reports very regularly on cars tuned with aftermarket parts, which is probably what you read. ;-)

There is currently a type-R in Japan that makes like 260 hp if memory serves (which, unfortunately, it doesn't always!)

robertsmx · February 2006

Well their must of been a 230hp. version made. I remember reading about it in MT
Never.

The most powerful ITR Honda ever sold had 220 ps... that will be the current ITR, using an engine also shared by Accord Euro-R and basically the same engine that Civic Si uses.

rockylee · February 2006

Ok maybe it was 220 hp.

I was close !!!!

Rocky

habitat1 · February 2006

Look Rocky, I'd like to keep this friendly, but you really need to stop spewing out gross inaccuracies with some tag line as "something I think I read"

The FACTS:

Acura Integra Type R: Type R road test
0-60: 6.7 sec
1/4 Mile: 15.2 sec @ 92.9 mph
60-0: 113 feet
Slalom (Edmunds): 62.4 mph

Honda S2000 (2002 - Motor Trend)
0-60: 5.2 sec.
1/4 mile: 13.8 sec @ 101.8 mph
60-0: 106 feet
Slalom: 71.1 mph (R&T)

Not only is the FWD Type R magnitudes below the S2000 in every performance measure, the Type R is well below my 2004 Acura TL 6-speed. And it's a family sedan.

Am I defensive of the S2000? Damn right. Other than the 15+ year old NSX, it is the only true sports car ever produced by Honda/Acura. And, in my opinion, a BETTER one than the NSX.

Teenie bopper boy racers might find souped up FWD Integas, Civics and Preludes their cup of tea. But as someone fortunate enough to be able to shop BMW, Porsche and even (don't tell my wife) Ferrari, the fact that Honda put out a ground up RWD sports car masterpiece like the S2000 was a great big breath of fresh air. Especially at a time when Toyota had completely punted the segment and Nissan's parts sharing, overweight 350Z was a complete insult and embarassment to the original 240Z.

The FACTS don't lie, Rocky. But don't take my word for it. Go back to your GM - Corvette board and let Starrow - an accomplished (and mature) Laguna Seca regular tell you how S2000's regularly pass him in a 400hp Corvette.

I, for one, would like to see Honda and Acura put out one or two real ground up RWD sports cars that seriously compete with Porsche for the serious enthusiast. Not try to swoon boy-racer wannabes with R versions of cheap FWD coupes. If you disagree, that's fine. But try to keep some semblance of accuracy in your statments. Thanks.

rockylee · February 2006

0-60 was 5.4 for the 220 hp. Type-R I saw in MT some years ago. I do remember it was a track car, some sort of special edition with racing seats. It was nothing like the GS-R which was actually luxurious for a small car.

BTW-Edmunds isn't always going to have the fastest track times. "All cars aren't created equal" On another note Motor Trend would shave a second or so off the time, because it's got a A or H emblem on it. :P

Rocky

rockylee · February 2006

The FACTS don't lie, Rocky. But don't take my word for it. Go back to your GM - Corvette board and let Starrow - an accomplished (and mature) Laguna Seca regular tell you how S2000's regularly pass him in a 400hp Corvette.

The only way a S2K is going to pass a Vette, GTO, Mustang GT or Shelby, Charger SRT-8, 300SRT-8, Jeep SUV :P SRT-8,
XLR-V, STS-V, CTS-V, Ford GT, Viper, Neon SRT-4, if the driver is asleep at the wheel, or is in 6th and crusing talking to his spouse.

habitat1, pal don't you think your getting ahead of your self saying a Honda competing with a Porsche. I guess it's ok to dream. I guess the next NSX might.

Rocky

varmint · February 2006

Ok maybe it was 220 hp. I was close !!!!

Unreal. Out of one side of his mouth, this guy is saying that Honda hasn't built any real performance cars. Then out of the other side he's saying that the current version of the Integra is the greatest thing on the road.

Rocky, this is the 220 hp ITR you think is so superior. If you think that it looks a little bit like the current Acura RSX, I'd forgive you.

rockylee · February 2006

It was the best FWD car Honda ever made. The RSX could only dream of being such a "need for speed" pocket rocket.

Besides that and the NSX, their isn't much performance off of the Honda assembly line. "H2K" a Miata with a higher reving engine. *yawn* :surprise:

Rocky

varmint · February 2006

The RSX is the ITR.

rockylee · February 2006

Ok :surprise: If you say so. :shades:

Rocky

nippononly · February 2006

I just can't resist responding again!

The 220 hp Integra type-R robertsmx mentioned is the CURRENT ONE, which we DON'T GET IN AMERICA.

What we call the RSX here in America is still called the Integra everywhere in the world outside North America.

Once again, the most powerful Integra type-R we ever got in America was the 195 hp one I already mentioned.

Got it?

There is NO WAY the type-R could hold its own against properly designed RWD sports cars like the S2000, NO WAY.

And yes, on any track with corners it is easy to believe that an S2000 could keep up with or pass a Corvette, because of its balance and handling.

And I would still love to see that "Honda vs itself" comparo I mentioned above. Include the S2000 - even if it runs away from the others, they would still compete among themselves, plus it would be nice to be reminded of what the S2000 can do. It is such a shame they have decided not to renew the run of this model with a second gen.

rockylee · February 2006

And yes, on any track with corners it is easy to believe that an S2000 could keep up with or pass a Corvette, because of its balance and handling.

I wish Edmunds could arrange that race. !!!!! :P

Rocky

P.S. I'd love to bet you even money on it too.

bumpy · February 2006

Acura RSX (US) = Honda Integra (Japan). Acura renamed the US Integra in 2002 for some dumb reason (and Honda blubbered it up and dumbed down the suspension, but that is another gripe).

robertsmx · February 2006

0-60 was 5.4 for the 220 hp. Type-R I saw in MT some years ago.

Never offered in America. What was MT testing? You're probably talking about some race prepped version (Real Time Integra Type-R?)... not production.

Remember, the 220 HP ITR currently sold in Japan (which would had been RSX-R here) uses the same basic engine/transmission as current Civic Si.

varmint · February 2006

:surprise: :P :sick:

:lemon:

varmint · February 2006

"It is such a shame they have decided not to renew the run of this model with a second gen."

What would you do differently? I mean, seriously, what else could be done to the S2000 that would have a significant impact without changing the character of the car?

I know several magazines have taken tuned cars (turbos, AWD, chipped, etc.) and run them against stock S2Ks. Only to find that the stock model is just as fast and handles just as well. Yet, the stocker is some $10-20K cheaper.

I'm not saying the car is perfect and cannot be improved, but it's a pretty tight car. I suspect that anything Honda did would result in only minor performance upgrades, yet could add significantly to the cost or degrade other aspects of performance.

habitat1 · February 2006

Rocky,

Make no mistake, we aren't pals. With the unsubstantiated crap you are spewing out, I need to keep my distance.

I give you the statistical facts and give you the name of a fellow GM supporter, Corvette owner and accomplished amateur track racer (Starrow). Yet you still can't reel in your boy racer rantings. Next thing you know, you'll probably be claiming the FWD Intergra Type R is faster than my 911 S.

I've owned the Integra and S2000 and driven an Integra Type R on numerous occasions. I now own a 911 S, so I'm not inclined to say the S2000 is better than the base Boxster if it wasn't. What, pray tell, is your resume and basis for any credibility here? Do you have a day job and own a car? Are you of legal driving age?

Actually, don't answer any of those questions. Just go get yourself a Type R (if you are old enough) and be happy. And, while you are at it, go ask Starrow on the Corvette board what yapping to his wife about when he was passed by S2000's at Laguna Seca. He can send you the link of the season points leaders and you will see that the S2000 is up there more than the Corvette and Boxster combined.

varmint · February 2006

It's going to depend on the track.

A track with long sweeping curves will play to the strengths of the S2000. It has grip and can handle the speed. Subtle changes in the turns curvature won't upset the chassis even at full-tilt-boogey.

A track with lots of straights and sharp turns will play to the Vette or even the Mustang. Everybody has to slow when the turns are very sharp. However, the cars with the ability to sprint right out of the turn will do the passing.

The best racing platform (aside form the NSX) is probably the Euro Accord/TSX. It's got the overall balance to run well on a wide variety of tracks. Realtime racing has won their class ahead of Mazdas and BMWs running a few TSXs.

gee35coupe · February 2006

Are awesome. I wish i could get myself a TSX that just looked like those cars. They have a nice stance.

varmint · February 2006

As I understand it, parts of the aero kits were straight from the A-Spec package. Only the front air dam was fabricated. The side and rear were OEM hardware.

gee35coupe · February 2006

Is the part I like most. I hate what Acura did with the front end of the TSX on the refresh. The new fog lights look like afterthoughts.

nippononly · February 2006

Well don't update it then, just continue to offer the same car, much as they did for a decade and a half with the NSX. Just don't cancel it, which is what I heard they will be doing this year or next with the S2000.

Did I hear wrong?

robertsmx · February 2006

But maintaining sales will be tough, with minor updates. Offering automatic or clutchless manual would definitely help a lot... with just 6-speed manual transmission... not many buyers out there.

Has Honda's run - run out?

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