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Has Honda's run - run out?
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Rocky, you seem to know minimal about H & A end of the market place. While I get a complete laugh out of the "ITR being the best thing ever from Honda", you may just want to stick to oogling over the Grandpa Caddy's you so joyfully compliment on the GM boards. Surely, trying to stir the Honda folks (Or Asian car fans in general) isn't going to help the "Union cause" or solve the reasons why GM is faltering so badly at the moment...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Stereos are a long-standing weakness in Hondas, IMO, and I hated the piece of crap that passed for a stereo in my RSX.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's how one of the major mags described it when the S2K was introduced.
Most of the time, the hardtop version of a car is no heavier than the vert. However, that's usually the case when a hardtop is converted into a drop top. (True of the 350Z or any other Nissan vert.) That's because the chassis needs to be reinforced when the roof is taken off. Otherwise you end up with the al dente chassis of the 300Z.
The S2k was built from the ground up as a vert, so there's little buttressing that wasn't part of the chassis from the get-go. So, in this case, I think a hardtop might add weight.
It could be done. And done well. But it would require a whole new design from the ground up. Kinda expensive for a low volume vehicle.
I liked the RSX mostly, except the stereo and the constant deafening road noise, but if it's a choice of sporty car or offroad machine, I'm afraid the truck wins.
gee: I think it can be said of just about any car that spending some money aftermarket will improve the stereo, and in the case of the RSX stereo, improving it WORLDS, I am sure. If you are a trance fan, though, you know how much you need clean power and crystal highs, two things which were totally lacking in the RSX, and are totally lacking in my friend's '04 Accord with the 6-disc head unit. You crank it up in that car, everything just gets muddy. I have never liked how the dash-level tweeters in Hondas are way out under the corners of the windshield. In most other cars they are mounted to the outside mirror face plate facing the driver and passenger, which makes tham much more clean, IMO.
In the Echo, I have a $150 Pioneer CD (45 watts peak) with the stock speakers (4 of them - no separate tweeters in that car!), and it sounds MUCH better than the RSX's stereo did, and better than my friend's Accord, IMHO.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
BTW- to others where is Honda at on the list of car sales presently and last year.....oh that's what I thought.
Rocky
What do you mean Rocky?
American Honda Posts Ninth Consecutive Year of Record Sales in 2005
2005 American Honda sales highlights:
All-time record American Honda total sales of 1,462,472 (up 5.2 percent)
12th consecutive annual sales increase
Ninth consecutive yearly sales record
All-time record light truck sales of 624,650 (up 13.7 percent)
13th consecutive year of record light-truck sales
:confuse: Sounds like things are going quite well...
I'm convinced that Rocky fried whatever connectors you need to figure out 2+2=4 and the sun comes up in the East.
Facts? Accuracy? Might as well be speaking Latin to Rocky.
Acura TSX .. sweet with lots of sugar but 4 cylindar ??? Test drove this car twice... nice, quiet, quick when needed... but is it okay for the long haul
Or Accord... EX V6 which moves when I need it to.
Highway driving at it's worst you need something to get you out of a jam...
At the moment I have the Accord Coupe EXV6 '03...
Great handling
Nicely styled
Not what everyone else is driving
However, only fast when you really goose it
Accord V6
Power on tap
Smoother ride
Larger interior
However, not very distinctive or fun
I do not know offhand what the instrumented tests show, but the TSX feels much more buttoned down in sporty maneuvers than the TL, which feels a bit disconnected - like it can do more than it really can. The number of times I had that car squealing tires and beginning to plow really surprised me, since it had given little indication that it was at its limit. Just giving it serious tires instead of the smallish (for the engine) MXM4 all-seasons would do wonders.
By comparison, the TSX sticks like glue. With its fuel economy low anyway, that car should have a small V-6 instead of the I4, to bring up torque.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Only if you go by EPA ratings. Check out the comparison/road tests, it usually does better than other cars which are rated better on the EPA system.
For that matter, Consumer Report’s 150-mile trip yielded 29 mpg on TSX (5-speed auto), which is impressive. Compare that to the same source reporting 28 mpg on Accord I-4/5AT, and 26 mpg on Accord V6/5AT.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And less than 10% between Accord I-4 and Accord V6... this does not mean Accord V6 is as good as the Accord I-4 in terms of fuel economy, or "only" 4 mpg better than Camry V6 (also CR 150-mile trip).
The point I wanted to convey was that EPA rating isn't the end all to judge fuel economy.
As for lack of torque, I'm not sure about that. This is a car that has as much torque as the first Accord V6 did, potentially better in the low to mid range (and similar curb weight). And it is way better than Accord I-4 that I drive.
If Honda does something new under the hood of the TSX, I expect it will be the 2.3L turbo from the RDX. (Can you say Sports4?) That would work well enough on both sides of the big puddle.
I'm indeed holding my breath for... Sports4 with 240-260 HP, and SH-AWD. It has next Acura compact sedan written all over it.
I actually like the Civic's interior... although the steering wheel in the sedan could use a better shape, my only complaint on the inside.
Yeah, the TSX with the turbo 2.3 from the RDX makes more sense. Robertsmx, don't forget that the first Accord with a V-6 is a decade behind us now, in days of less weight, several hundred pounds in this case, I believe.
And I don't think the TSX is a drag by any means, just that it would probably double its sales if they could put in the faster engine and keep it under $30K. Think the sports4 will come in under that mark?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nope. Very close in size and weight...
1997 Accord EXV6/5MT: 3285 lb
2006 TSX/6MT: 3257 lb (3268 lb with Navigation System)
Besides, the feel for torque and power don’t change with time. Sometimes smoothness can mask actual performance.
it would probably double its sales if they could put in the faster engine and keep it under $30K. Think the sports4 will come in under that mark?
If I had to take a logical guess today, it would be that we will see next TSX start under $30K, with FWD and good power (similar, or slightly better than what we see today). And top out with a performance model with the 240-260 HP turbo/SH-AWD drivetrain in low 30s.
TL could use the same formula, covering mid-30s to may be low 40s range, topping out with its own SH-AWD model, also filling the huge gap that exists between the current TL and the RL.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not my Acura dealer. They also sell Mercedes. The owner assessed the "dissapointing" sales of the RL the same way I speculated some time ago. The TL is such a good value and better performer, that few buyers see any reason to go to the RL. Contrast that with the C-Class to E-class. Everything in the E is a step up. Size, amenities, and performance.
My Acura dealer sells far more TL's than C-classes, but far more E-classes than RL's. He believes (as do I) that if the RL was a notch or two up on the performance front, it would sell much better against the 5 series or E class than it currently does. And they could even raise the price somewhat. As it is, he sells the RL at a piddence above invoice, in the $44k range.
I agree. And IMO, that would be:
(1) 350+/- HP V8 to at least put it in the same general league as the 550i, E500, M45 and (new) LS470.
(2) RWD (standard) and AWD (optional) versions. With the goal of shaving 300-400 lbs off the curb weight of the RWD version. Which will still make it a 3,600-3,700 lb car. As it stands, the M5 like 4,000 lb curb weight with a smallish V6 and slushbox is just too pokey for a "flagship".
(3) A 6-speed SMG transmission standard and short throw (TL like) 6-speed manual optional. Keep the slushbox automatic if you must, and make the other two optional.
(4) Sport package option with sport tuned suspension, upgraded tires and brakes and increased throttle response (see Porsche's sport/chrono option for how to do that).
All of these changes together could make the RL become the only serious Japanese competitor to the BMW 5-series for the enthusiast. And not give up any of the (diminimus) appeal it currently has. And even if only a minority of RL's were equiped with the manual and sport package, the fact that the RL would then be getting a lot of positive press as a Japanese alternative to the 550i 6-speed would likely have a halo effect. As of right now, the RL is just too damn boring to get my (near 50 year old) blood going - the equivalent of an AWD Avalon.
P.S. Even my Acura/Mercedes dealer questioned why Acura put so much emphasis on the AWD as the only mechanical upgrade from the TL - and at the significant expense of added weight and lowered day in, day out performance. And this is a dealer located in an area that gets 100+ inches of snow annually. Only 15%-20% of their Mercedes E-class sales are 4-Matics. Everyone that can afford one of those is likely to have an SUV in the garage as well.
However GM's quality is getting better, but is GM or anyone else for that matter going to offer Acura levels of technology under $50K ????->(Includes RL) :confuse:
Lexus has tried and you end up with a subcompact 4 door IS series @ $47K with all the bells and whistles. I said the IS was the best bang for the buck in 06' because of the rumored $35K price before it was official. Yeah if you want a stripped model. The TL still reigns "King" in 06' You can buy a TL 6-speed w/ Navi for under $37K $10-G's cheaper, much more roomier, and perhaps the best handling FWD car ever???? Not to mention blistering by the IS in a salom and skidpad. :surprise:
Rocky
My local dealer has sevral IS250s with less than $2K in options, so that you could probably pick them up for $30K apiece. For Toyota, that's an encouraging sign! :-/
It's funny - there's an editorial posted at Automotive News today that exactly matches the theme of this thread! The guy goes on to talk about how Honda has lost its mojo, mainly because it was willing to take risks in the period up to 2000, and because new products stood out from a very small line back then (which was only Civic Accord Prelude right up through the 1999 model year). In contrast, the product line is too diluted now with products that while innovative are being rejected by consumers because Honda can no longer command the kind of high prices it used to.
Apparently some Japanese magazine took a poll of consumers as to what most symbolized each of the big 3 brands for them. The responses were hybrids/Prius for Toyota and the Skyline GTR for Nissan. Both are sold to retail customers. For Honda, it was F1 racing and Asimo the Robot, of which one is not for sale to retail customers, and the other is not a motor vehicle!
The whole editorial made a very interesting read. I am not sure I agree with everything in there, but I have felt for some time that Honda is gradually sinking back into the market from its stand-out position ten years ago - not enough differentiation of its products from the flooded market, and reliability issues as well as very little innovation.
I mean, Honda was to market years ahead of Toyota with the Insight - how could it let Toyota steal the "green" mantra and hybrid fame from it with the Prius?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda innovations in the 1990's also gave us the Del Sol and the original Odyssey. How inspired was the 2.5TL or the 3.5RL in the mid 90's? That was also the time period when they rebadged two Isuzu products.
His comment about Honda products not commanding a "premium" today seem to be based solely on the Ridgeline. Yet he ignores those non-premium products above.
I don't think Honda stands out from the crowd like it once did. He's got a point there. But it has more to do with others following (and catching up with) Honda, than anything Honda has done differently. Everyone is more innovative than before. Honda products stood out in the 1990's because everyone else was feeding us formula.
Wait... 1995 Accord was a real example of innovativeness, and so was the Civic! That article you mention is about as lame as any can get. And having lost its mojo, Honda bothered to launch such "failures" and run of the mill machines beginning around 2000 as... second generation Odyssey, MDX, Pilot, S2000...
And his issue is with ASIMO? Poor thing... it has been in Honda development since 1989! Honda didn't get to the point where it is today by being anything less than enterprising. Even now when Honda attempts to offer something like SH-AWD, we put it down with "lack of V8" argument... yeah, that would be real innovative!
As for Ridgeline... Honda did meet its sales target, and sold as many units (despite the "premium") as the company did with Passport and Odyssey sales in in 1997 (did either of those command the Honda premium)?
Any arguments?
Hey Honda Loyalist one of ya'll gotta know something on the Acura TL Type-S that is suppose to be released either next yr. or the yr. after
Rocky
Thanx
Rocky
Is the Type S mto even used anymore? I was expecting it to be phased out completely when the RSX ends its stint.
anything, what kinda numbers are you expecting from the RDX ????? 0-60 in the high 6 sec. range possible ?
Rocky
Sounds about right. If I were a gambling man, I'd put it right around a TSX which I believe is at 6.7 seconds.
BTW, I would LOVE to see a TL Type-S appear again, just make sure it gets the proper 3 pedal setup this time. :shades:
And you may have misunderstood - he was saying Honda was very innovative in the period leading up to 2000, less so since then.
And his "issue" is not with Asimo - he was merely pointing out that in Japan, the home market, Toyota and Nissan are known for their cars available to the public, while Honda is known for a robot. I would agree that is somewhat significant.
I also think it is significant that Honda allowed Toyota to become the media darling for hybrids. The Prius doesn't do much better than a lightly-driven Corolla for gas mileage. The Insight, OTOH, can get you 60 to the gallon regularly and has been recorded to achieve close to 100 mpg at times, if you can believe the posts of the owners.
As for "not commanding the premium it used to", I think he is generalizing from a few models. However, that has been very true for the Accord since 2004, for the Ridgeline, and even for the Civic for a couple of years before the redo. Honda dealers around here, which is pretty much a bastion of Japanese car strength, have been sweating the deals a lot harder the last couple of years, especially last year, and I remember January '05 was the first time I had ever seen previous model year cars still sitting on dealer lots, at both Honda and Acura (except for the disaster-prone '02-'03 SI - those were sitting around into the next model year much earlier - as we know those cars sat around sometimes for a year before finding a buyer, and might mark the start of this period of Honda having to discount and bargain to move the metal).
It's a flooded market in North America, at and well over capacity, and it was perhaps inevitable that the period when Honda charged higher prices and sold at sticker would end.
And even then, as I said, the guy was generalizing - from what I understand, certain models like the Odyssey and Pilot still sell close to sticker. But they are also not the volume leaders in their segments, and the cars that are (Accord, Civic) are now selling for discounts (well, the Accord is, the Civic was, and will be again after the initial rush of next-gen buyers is done). Honda dealers have had to learn how to bargain.
Where it is today after this period of slow-down is still not a bad place - prices are on par with Toyota, which has been routinely discounting for years, and usually offering small cash incentives as well on high-volume models, something Honda still has yet to do.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)