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Has Honda's run - run out?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The one from the ultra-cool Cog ad:

    image

    They won't sell that here, though. RDX sort of fills that segment for Acura.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    With the Legend, Integra and NSX, Acura entered the race at a very fast pace. Then they hit the wall. The Vigor never took off. The 3.5RL replacement for the Legend was a "legendary" dud. To add to their woes, the sports car market was shrinking and Integra sales went with it. Don't get me started on the SLX...

    Looking at that chart, I was surprised by how much dealers were relying on the first generation CL.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I've got my fingers crossed for the Sports4. Supposedly a replacement for the Euro Accord with an option for a turbo 4 and SH-AWD. Some expect to see a coupe version of that car.

    The RDX fills the need for a wagonish vehicle in the line-up. So I wouldn't expect to see anything like the Euro Accord wagon.

    My own silly notion is to bring over the JDM Odyssey. That's the rig Juice noted in the video from a few days back. It's a van that's more like a wagon. Think of a slightly larger version of the Mazda5, but not nearly as big as a US minivan. Marketers would call it "a sports-tourer'.

    Anyway, give it the J32 from the TL or the K23 turbo from the RDX and bring it over in full luxury treatment. It's already fully-loaded in Japan. The Ody is a good-looking vehicle already. With a few cosmetic upgrades and a sportier suspension set up, it would make a good vehicle for empty nesters. There are a number of people who grew to love the space in their minivan, but don't have kids in the house anymore. Consider it a down-market alternative to the R Class from MB.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting, so you'd bring that as an Acura, eh?

    R-class is selling below expectations, though. Perhaps Benz just price it too high (higher than the ML).

    I like the JDM Ody but might keep it as a Honda. They could even bump up the equipment in the base Odyssey and leave the sub-$26k market for the smaller van.

    -juice
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I have dreams of that very thing...
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    "A 4 seat TSX coupe, to go up against the G35c and BMW 325i is what I had in mind. Those can actually get a bit of volume."

    If they make it a damn Front driver I will have a fit :mad: Otherwise Honda is going to be missing the boat on the intended market...
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "If they make it a damn Front driver I will have a fit..."

    But isn't the Fit a front-driver, too?

    :P
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Actually, the Ody from Japan is considered the more luxurious of the two vehicles wearing the name. (They used to sell our Ody over there under a different/cheesy name.) The JDM Ody could pass for an Acura with nothing more than a new badge - though I'm certainly not recommending that approach.

    If they took a well-equipped JDM version (3.0L V6) with no changes at all, it would probably start near $28K. That would include power everything, but not the NAV, memory seats, or a top shelf stereo. Those items would add to the cost.

    Now, tweak it a bit for the US market. Give it the 3.2 V6 from the TL or the 2.3 Turbo from the RDX. Tighten the suspension a bit and give it a facade more in keeping with the Acura family. The base trim would probably go for $32-33K. Then load it with NAV, ELS stereo, memory seats, etc. and it would easily sticker for $35-36K.

    A luxury van like the Town & Country looks almost identical to the Caravan it's based on. It also performs like a Caravan and gets as much respect. The JDM Ody looks nothing like anything else on the US market. It handles more like a sport wagon than a van. Its most direct competitors would probably be the T&C and the Pacifica. However, I can also see it stealing sales away from the Volvo, Audi, and BMW wagons.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    :D That's awesome. No pun intended.
  • from_flfrom_fl Member Posts: 113
    Honda needs to improve their car styling issue first.
    It appear they noticed the problem and started to correct it(latest Civic, Fit look good.) However, they need to do the same for Acura line or else MBenz/BMW/Lexus will beat them every time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Is that what we call them? ;)

    Mazda5 proved there is a market, at least on the value end of the scale. It has exceeded Mazda's expectations.

    I think the class folded when the bizarre-looking predecessors failed in the market, I'm talking about the Nissan Axxess.

    Maybe it's time to revive an old idea?

    I'll bring my camera next time I go to church. It's surreal to see a JDM vehicle with diplomatic plates on US roads. Pretty cool.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Styling issues? The Acura line has never looked better. The RL might need a little more sparkle, but that's nothing that can't be fixed with a new grill and a couple minor cosmetic upgrades. The TSX is handsome and the TL has earned rave reviews.

    The Honda line has some real issues with the current Accord and the Ridgeline. But the Odyssey, Pilot, CR-V, Civic, and S2000 are all fine. That Fit you mentioned is actually wearing sheetmetal from 5-6 years ago. We're getting that model after it's been on the market in other countries for a full product cycle.

    Frankly, I think BMW is the one in danger of having styling hurt their game.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Is a better set of wheels. I lovw everything else about the car.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Given the way the RL is selling (or, rather, isn't selling), I'd be willing to bet Acura would throw in an extra set of wheels or three, if that's your only objection.

    For me, the wheels are just about perfect, compared to other shortcomings (performance oriented) of this wannabe flagship. And whether its the wheels, or the ho-hum performance, the RL is just about dead last in sales volume among its peers (5 series, E class, A6, Infiniti M, GS, etc.).

    If you are that serious in your affection for the car, I suggest you cut a good deal and swap out the wheels. You should be able to pick one up for well under invoice.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Atlanta dealer didn't even want to sell a demo for the $39k that I heard they were going for. So I passed. I even took one home for a night. I've found another use for that income now. So too late.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    go down to the mazda store and get a RX8, if you can get over the abysmal mpg numbers and possible rotary engine related problems down the road.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "It appear they noticed the problem and started to correct it(latest Civic, Fit look good.) However, they need to do the same for Acura line or else MBenz/BMW/Lexus will beat them every time."

    Why, you think the 5 Series and 3 Series are such lookers. Maybe the last generation of 5 Series(98-03) and the 3 Series(99-05) were lookers but the current generations of 3 and 5 Series are not lookers. The front of the 3 Series is quite good stylisically but the back of it? The current 3 Series doesn't have quite the sleek and elegant look of the last generation(99-05)3 Series.

    Lexus, are the ES330 and LS430 lookers? Not really. THE GS and IS are ok looking though in my opinion but nothing to get wowed over.

    The Accord in Honda's line-up is the one that needs alot more sportier look stylisitically at the moment.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "R-class is selling below expectations, though. Perhaps Benz just price it too high (higher than the ML)."

    This is not to knock Mercedes or anything like that since I respect them alot but the R-Class has too much of a resemblance to its little brother: The Chrysler Pacifica in my opinion.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Now we're talking, from that chart, they had about 53k sales in 1986. But it was a partial year."

    "The first full year was 1987, and sales were 109k."

    "So there really wasn't much growth until much later. In 1998, they still had 110k in sales, basically no real sustained growth after 11-12 years or so in the market. To make things worse, they had 2 models in 1987, but a full 6 models in 1998."

    I wonder what year Lexus passed Acura in Sales since we are going over all these sales numbers. I think the Acura brand came out 3 years before the Lexus brand did so Acura did have a 3 year headstart on Lexus. Nissan's Infinti brand came out out the same time as Toyota's Lexus's brand did but still Infinti has never had the sales numbers that Lexus or even Acura has had. I wonder how close sales numbers wise the 1995-1999 I30 and 1996-1998 TL were as well. I also wonder how close the first generation LS 400 and 2nd generation Legend were as well in sales numbers. Wasn't the first generation LS 400 out when the 1991-1995 Legend was on the market or was it not or was the Lexus GS a direct competitor to the Legend at the time in 1993 if it was out rather than the LS400?
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "IMO, adding higher trims to both TSX and TL and tweaking RL are due. Besides, the possibility of a coupe or two in the lineup."

    RL tweaking already? Honda usually waits until a fourth model year of a current generation bodystyle of one of its cars to do a mid-cycle refresh. The RL is going in for a refresh in its 3rd year of bodystyle of its current generation model? I think the TL is due for a mid-cycle resfresh for the 07 model year as well.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They started in 1989 or 1990, right?

    They had the LS and ES250 at first, the latter was not much of a model. But very early on they were able to establish a great rep for quality and service, and to this day they get mileage out of that. Also, Toyota was willing to spring for investment in a true flagship, and that also helped set them apart.

    It's tougher for Honda. They've always made efficient engines, so to come out with a powerful flagship goes against the grain.

    -juice

    PS carguy: good point about the resemblance to the Pacifica
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    http://www.onelapofamerica.com/history/2006/results/showResults.shtml?y=2006&res- =OVL_[non-permissible content removed]

    Not bad for an Si with only a 54 hp boost. I'm sure the professional driver at the wheel didn't hurt their results, either.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cool, it helps to start with a light car.

    Subaru had 3 in the top 10. :shades:

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "Subaru had 3 in the top 10."

    And the Civic beat 'em all. :P

    Just for kicks, scroll down and take a look at the 2nd and 3rd place entries in the "SUV" category. Then note that poor old Porche earned 4th after them. :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hilarious. That's why I call the Ody the Man Van. :D

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And the Civic beat 'em all.

    They're running forced induction. Modified Jackson Racing supercharger from what I read.

    Awesome but that's not really an "Si" any more. :P

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I know, I know...

    But everything on the track was modded. Some of the competition was cranking out well over 400 hp.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Prodrive shoulda brought their WRC car. :D

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    My curiousity got the better of me and I did a little digging. This is what I was able to find without too much trouble. I'm getting these specs from various forums. So, take 'em with a grain of salt.

    The AMS Evo that took third place was running 525-550 whp and weighed in at 3,000 lbs.

    The Civic Si was reported to have gained 54 whp which would make the total about 230-240 whp with 200 lbs less than stock (2,877 - 200 = 2,677 lbs).

    The Topspeed STi in fifth place was running 100 whp less than the Evo and weighed 300 lbs more (according to the guy who runs the AMS Evo). Which means roughly 425ish whp and 3,300 lbs.

    The Ultima GTR is supposed to be putting down 500 whp to move 2,200 lbs. :surprise:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Per Automotive News, Honda is planning 2 new plants, one in the US for a hybrid (my guess is the next generation Fit) and one in Canada for a diesel engine.

    Since Honda went out of their way last week to specifically deny a hybrid CR-V, my educated guess is that this will be the 2.2l diesel from Europe for that same vehicle.

    Let's see how the segment pans out. Highlander went hybrid, Escape and Vue as well. Liberty went diesel. Oddly enough, the Liberty is the one in short supply. There are actually incentives on the hybrid SUVs.

    Perhaps Honda felt the segment was getting a bit crowded and opted instead to bring over the already-engineered diesel. By the time the plant opens low-sulfur diesel will be widespread.

    To me the only question is - can they get it to pass emissions in CA and other CARB-rules states in the NE?

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Ultima GTR is supposed to be putting down 500 whp to move 2,200 lbs

    Aren't those the same crazy guys that made the Consulier? Remember those whacky ultra-light cars? They ran a 2.2l turbo Dodge engine.

    I wouldn't want to drive one daily, though.

    -juice
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    At the moment, I don't believe it is possible to register a Diesel in Mass, but I think you can in Vermont, Maine and NH. Maybe even Connecticut and RI. I could be wrong as I have not tried this yet.

    In my experience I have never run across either a Jetta or Liberty Diesel in my travels. I have seen an E320 Diesel, but it had Conn. plates.

    A diesel in the CRV would be a welcomed option IMO. I had a Toyota Avensis diesel while on a tour of Ireland and I would buy that car in a heartbeat if I wanted a new daily driver. Plenty of power, without the racket that supposedly accompanies a diesel motor.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think VW is (attempting to) stock-piling TDIs from MY2006, as there will be no MY2007 TDI models. They hope to bring them back in 08, but they may require expensive emissions gear to pass the newer, more stringent tests.

    -juice
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    TDI good for 40mpg would make an excellent alternative to a Prius IMO. It is disappointing that I can't buy one at the moment. I have to reiterate my post from above. Diesel pickups are a plenty here so it is possible to buy a diesel in MA. But my guess is the trucks fall into a different category.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "Per Automotive News, Honda is planning 2 new plants, one in the US for a hybrid (my guess is the next generation Fit) and one in Canada for a diesel engine."

    They've got it wrong.

    1 plant in the US for an undisclosed vehicle (not a hybrid).

    1 engine plant in Canada to supply 4 bangers to the HCM plants. The only vehicles using 4 cyls at those plants are the Civic and Acura CSX (which is a Civic all gussied-up).

    There is news of a diesel and news of a hybrid, but perhaps not what people are expecting.

    Takeo Fukui has announced the development of a V6 diesel. But that looks like something for the semi-distant future.

    Mr. Fukui did announce a 'new' diesel for the US within 3 years, but I think he means the same 2.2L unit sold in the UK with new emissions hardware. I doubt very much he's talking about the V6 diesel.

    The news that has most Honda-phyles flipping is the part about a dedicated hybrid car. In my mind, that makes the rumors of a hybrid Fit a little less secure. It's very possible they intend to build a hybrid on the Fit chassis, but it won't be a Fit. It'll be a unique design.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CRX, baby!

    The Insight sort of tried to look like one, but it was too narrow and made too many concessions IMO. Give it a tweaked Civic Hybrid powertrain, with less weight, and it might actually appeal to a whole cross-section of greenies and enthusiasts.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I'm thinking 4-5 seater in a hatch bodystyle. Four doors, but shorter in height than the Fit (not so roomy, but more aerodynamic).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you're right, then Honda must be going after the PR points that Toyota got with the Prius, i.e. an instantly recognizable hybrid.

    -juice
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yup.

    A separate model leaves less room for direct "price recuperation" arguments. And that makes sense, from marketing perspective.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    By offering something less expensive and smaller than the hybrid Civic, Honda also avoids direct comparison with the Prius. Since everyone else is scrambling to get a hybrid into the mid-size arena (Ford, Nissan, Saturn, etc.) moving down a notch on the price ladder might not be a bad idea.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I see that as a very smart move by Honda. Throw in the diesel equation for larger cars, and make hybrid affordable to the masses.

    I'm wondering if Honda has a completely different hybrid system up its sleeves, may be something along the lines of a scooter prototype we have seen from them a few years ago. One, that can be a series or a parallel hybrid, based on driving conditions.

    Could this also involve the first application of HCCI engine technology? I was hoping to hear more about it.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    They're looking to make this hybrid more affordable. I doubt it will bring a brand new engine design to the table.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I agree. I think they are looking for a max-volume seller here, and not a niche model with limited sales potential. It will have to be a BIG seller if they are to meet their 34% sales increase by 2010.

    Bob
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Honda is targeting 100K unit sales per year. That is quite a chunk, even if it were to come with a dedicated hybrid technology (not seen in Insight, Civic Hybrid, or Accord Hybrid, yet).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I still wonder though, it's gotta share a platform with the next-gen Fit if it's about the same size for them to keep it cost-effective.

    One strategy - they could come out with the Hybrid first, and give it a unique name. Then, maybe a year or so later, some out with a similar conventional Fit. By then the hybrid will be recognizable and already have positive PR.

    In fact, that might even rub off on the conventional Fit and help sales of that car.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    In 2005, Honda sold about 25K units of the HCH. Same for 2004. So, an estimate like 100K units for this new model means they have significant plans.

    I anticipate it will be Fit-based. That would explain why we have those rumors about Honda producing a hybrid Fit. And it would also explain why Takeo Fukui all but denied those rumors. However, I think it will be a hatch or a sedan, while the Fit remains more of a wagon. It'll have a unique front facade while the underpinnings are all Fit-based.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "...That is quite a chunk, even if it were to come with a dedicated hybrid technology (not seen in Insight, Civic Hybrid, or Accord Hybrid, yet)."

    I don't think he meant a dedicated hybrid system. I think he meant a dedicated car. Not a body style used for anything else other than this hybrid. The IMA may very well be the same as a Civic or a variant of it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That would make sense, at least share a platform.

    100k is a very optimistic number. They're going to have to come out with a very low price to earn that many new sales.

    Let's see, a well equipped Fit runs in the $16s. The Civic Hybrid is up to $22k, so I bet it comes in at around $18-19k for starters. I'd be impressed if they can get the price that low.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    In other news...

    A Japanese car rag has published news about a new Stream. (Which also looks to be based on the Fit!) But one of the tidbits is news of the long-awaited next generation iVTEC. Rather than a step-style progression from mild to wild, it offers continuously variable lift and timing.

    This is supposed to be similar to BMW's VANOS design in the benefits it provides, but the design is supposed to be less complicated and cheaper to produce.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I think the target is a $1,800 premium for the hybrid system.

    And, yes, I think that sales estimate might have been produced after a long meeting with free saki being served.
This discussion has been closed.