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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • quasar4quasar4 Member Posts: 110
    --Sorry, I know this is veering off topic, but your argument is actually what's irrational. If you believe that gov't should have no role in subsidizing the auto manufacturers, then you should vehemently be arguing against the outrageous "Hummer" of a tax loophole. The tax code was originally written to assist small businesses and farmers. Take it from an ol' Iowa farm boy --no farmer in his right mind would choose a Hummer (or similar SUV) over a more versatile pickup (likewise for small businesses and vans). When's the last time you saw a farmer hauling hay in the back of his Hummer? That tax break instead goes to needy real estate agents carting clients around, or pauper law firms for making Starbuck's cappuccino runs. This does nothing to "...promote the general welfare..." which is the feds role if you believe those crafty guys who wrote the Constitution. By contrast, encouraging public transit, energy conservation, pollution reduction, and reduced dependence on Mid-East oil, does. The tax payers of Washington state are picking up 97% of the tab --the 3% Uncle Sam kicks in is a veritable bargain. I now return you to the Prius discussion :)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    That credit proposal failed miserably though. Instead administration is continuing with the sunset process of the current deduction.

    Bummer, eh?

    JOHN
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    I guess I'm just looking through the "At least he tried." glasses.

    Politics aside, I think that Hybrid technology and value is more than well on it's way to becoming a major player. I'm sure most of the companies are looking at the Prius (and others) and thinking "God, we need to jump on that bandwagon!" There are other alternatives, including hydrogen and fuel cell technology that should also be researched.
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    Actually, getting on the fuel cell bandwagon would still make us behind Japan. Japan's government, who subsidized the manufacturers for nearly 30 years to bring about Hyrid vehicles, has moved most of it's push to bring Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles to the market.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    As close as I can tell the tax incentive was designed to give businesses the opportunity to purchase any vehicle over 6000 gvw. I think the Hummer bit was just "spin" by those that wanted smaller vehicles included in that incentive. You can purchase a 1 ton PU under that incentive and write it off the first year. It was designed to stimulate the economy. It also had a slight side affect of getting newer trucks with lower emissions on the road. The fact that SUVs fit into that 6000gvw parameter is irrelevant. The same business can write off any vehicle they want over the normal depreciation period. It was a stimulus and mis-represented by some political opponents as something it was not.
  • quasar4quasar4 Member Posts: 110
    --Actually the fact that luxury SUVs fit into the tax break category is totally relevant to the spirit of the law and determining its validity and effectiveness in helping those it was intended to target in the first place. With that said, what's not relevant is this topic to the subject "Hybrids in the News." Let's agree to disagree.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Back to the news

    By Rich Smith
    The outset of an epic competition for the mindshare of America's green auto buyers is just about the worst time Honda could have picked to allow questions about its engineering quality to emerge.
    In all, Honda is recalling more than 1.1 million Accords, Acuras, Odyssey minivans, and Pilot and Acura SUVs. That's nearly 90% of the company's total annual U.S. sales for all of 2003 (1.35 million)!
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Start of longterm test.
    http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=longtermtests&loc_code=index&content_code=09611403
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    > compexity of the Prius

    There's the source of your confusion.

    Prius is *LESS* than a traditional automatic, not more.


    Are you actually claiming that the Prius tranny COSTS less than the Camry's. To the MANUFACTURER.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How many Honda hybrids were recalled? I missed that part.
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    I know this is more about Hydrogen Fuel Cells than Hybrids but it is news. I have heard so many "Why is the US having to play catch up with the Japanese?" and then so many "We should not be focusing on Hydrogen Fuel Cells". I have to wonder, why the contradiction? Or maybe it is merely politics.

    From the Toyota Corporate site:

    TOYOTA ENVIRONMENTAL UPDATES

    Twenty-sixth issue, June, 2004

    Toyota to participate in major demonstration of hydrogen in transportation
    As part of a public/private partnership, Toyota will participate in an ambitious five-year project to demonstrate and validate advancements in hydrogen-based transportation infrastructure. The program will encompass up to 24 fueling stations in California, some of which are existing facilities, and others that will be constructed within the framework of the project. The stations will feature a range of hydrogen production and fueling approaches, including the use of renewable energy and the production of hydrogen from natural gas. Toyota, Honda and Nissan plan to assign up to a total of 65 fuel cell vehicles to the project, funded in part by The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE). Led by Air Products, a leading producer of hydrogen, the program will include the participation of Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, ConocoPhillips, the National Fuel Cell Research Center of the University of California, Irvine, and California's South Coast Air Quality Management District.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't believe any were recalled. I think what the reporter was saying is that with the heated competition between Honda & Toyota for sales of their hybrid vehicles, along with the rest of their vehicles, this was unfortunate timing. A major recall reflects on the company as a whole. Honda has prided itself on reliability over the years. This was a BIG error in their testing of the transmissions. It will cause bloodshed in sales even for vehicles that are not at all affected, such as the Civic HCH.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Yes, it means that next year when the corporate reliability ratings come out Honda will take a big hit, because the recall is such a large percentage of their total production.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I guess another headline for that article could have been "Honda hybrids demostrate their reliability, not included in recalls." They could have gone on to say that the Honda hybrids use different transmissions than the cars that were recalled. But maybe that wouldn't garner as many page hits as an article that tries to relate the ultra-hot hybrid market to a recall that has nothing to do with hybrids.

    What the recall does reflect is that Honda no longer has the huge edge in quality it enjoyed in the past--the U.S. and Korea are closing the gap fast.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    In the just released JD Power Initial Quality rankings, Hyundai passed Toyota to jump to #7 overall. Hyundai has also announced a Hybrid Development program.
  • modernitymodernity Member Posts: 3
    http://www.newstreet.it/home/article_Id_627.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Those are pretty impressive crash results. I wonder if the Prius that are sold here have the 8 airbags. I like the fact they test against other cars. That is more realistic than into a concrete wall.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The article states that eight airbags are standard equipment on the Euro Prius model that was tested, as well as VSC. The side bags/curtains are optional in the U.S. but are on virtually every Prius sold here, as it's hard to find one without them--impossible in my region.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/05gmhybrid.htm

    Only 15% fuel savings! Well, better than nothing and it will be effective for construction use by offering electric power at job sites.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0407/06/c01-203897.htm

    GM is considering building a hybrid in China in order to be in the hybrid market.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'd be very surprised if GM or any manufacturer sold hybrids in China anytime soon. Price is a factor in China, and with the current hybrid "premium" being around $3000 that will be a substantial barrier to hybrid adoption in China. Gas prices in China are actually lower than those in the U.S. right now, based on what I saw in Beijing recently.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I like the phrase "advanced propulsion strategy" guess GM doesn't want to use the H word.
  • quasar4quasar4 Member Posts: 110
    --Here's a Boston Globe article that may be of some interest. Hybrid Taxi
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    GMC uses the h word - snip - Chances are that at some time in your life, you had a car whose engine shut off at every stoplight. It's unlikely, though, that you paid an extra $2,500 for the feature.
    http://www.newsday.com/business/columnists/ny-sstom0709c,0,498048- - - .column?coll=ny-business-columnists
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/fordhybrid12e_20040712.htm

    Limited choices for repairs.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Bringing a new vehicle in for repair to anywhere but the dealer within the warranty period doesn't make any sense.

    Why would you willingly pay for a covered service?

    In other words, it means little to judge the current state of the market when that aspect won't be relevent until 3 years from now anyway.

    And if you do feel the need to push that aspect, then the fact that a "full" hybrid is engineered to be more reliable than the traditional design becomes a discussion topic that cannot be ignored.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Are there no hybrids that are more than 3 years old? Are all hybrids still under warranty?

    My anecdotal experience is that hybrid owners that I know have had almost no required repairs to their vehicles.

    I do not believe it is likely to have problems with the Toyota and Honda hybrids. Just my personal opinion.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Prius is about to have its 8th birthday.

    The teaching process for the mechanics is no big deal at this point. In fact, there are a number that are quite well informed already.

    So your implication that 3 years from now none will have a clue is nothing but gibberish.

    Sorry to be blunt. But with so many new HSD vehicles planned over the next few years, it just doesn't make any sense that other mechanics wouldn't want in on the income that knowledge could provide.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote John-Bringing a new vehicle in for repair to anywhere but the dealer within the warranty period doesn't make any sense.

    Why would you willingly pay for a covered service?

    In other words, it means little to judge the current state of the market when that aspect won't be relevent until 3 years from now anyway.

    And if you do feel the need to push that aspect, then the fact that a "full" hybrid is engineered to be more reliable than the traditional design becomes a discussion topic that cannot be ignored.

    JOHN -end

    Read the post I just quoted. Read my response to your post. Then read post 187. You must be drinking too much battery juice John.

    I never implied that mechanics will have no knowledge in 3 years. YOU implied that all Prius were under warranty when you stated it makes no sense to go anywhere other than dealer. All of the Prius are NOT under warranty. Even for people making initial purchase it is wise to consider where service will be obtained when out of warranty.

    Blunt is fine. It is your cluelessness that is difficult to deal with.

    What aspect am I pushing? I posted a link to an article regarding hybrids in the hybrids in the news topic.

    Gibberish? LOL.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    The discussion was about new purchases, not about those that *ALREADY* own a hybrid.

    So your implication that I meant "all" is incorrect.

    JOHN
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    OK - blowing the whistle here...

    Let's back of the personal insults, agree to disagree, etc.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think there is validity to questioning the level of training on any new vehicle. The shade tree mechanic is a thing of the past. Unless you have the computer program to diagnose a vehicle your in the dark. If the Prius is more advanced and trouble free than earlier Toyotas, it is safe to say the level of training will diminish. Kind of the Maytag repairman syndrome. So when and if you do have a problem it is more likely they will not have someone familiar with that problem and the skills needed to repair the vehicle. I see it in the communications field. I have a friend that sells Buicks. He said they have a hard time keeping qualified mechanics because there is not enough work for them to make a living. 100K miles between tune-ups etc. I think it is going to become a major issue in the future. We are headed toward throw away vehicles, recycle and buy a new one..
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Wow for Car & Driver to test a pre-prod and say " It's a solid whack into the outfield, the real thing" is something ! - snip - Cheers swept through the cheap seats four years ago when rookie Billy Ford, brought out of the backfield to lead America's stumbling No. 2 automaker, reaffirmed the company's pledge to lift the fuel economy of its SUV fleet by 25 percent, and do it by 2005. Then nothing happened. Years went by.
    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article- - _id=8274
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > company's pledge to lift the fuel economy of its SUV fleet by 25 percent, and do it by 2005. Then nothing happened.

    Actually, there was a change. IT GOT WORSE!!!

    So now they need to lift their fleet average by 28 percent to reach that original goal.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    ..."Okay, but give us the numbers," you say. Sorry, nothing but estimates so far. Certification was to be completed late this summer...

    The quote from the article is truly remarkable.

    Over and over again we see comments about how misleading the "certification" numbers from the EPA are.

    Yet now, they are being relied on as the only true reliable information source for MPG expectations.

    Well, I have news for everyone. The EPA is the official authority that provides values for the sake of comparison, which are in no way representative of a real-world promise. The reason is that there are simply too many variables that affect actual performance. In fact, that's why there are 2 sets of numbers on the window-sticker, one specific for city & highway, and the other are ranges... because even the testing itself has constraints the prevent it from covering all the factors of influence for MPG.

    In other words, don't believe anything without lots of real-world data... like an entire year of real-world driving from several different owners.

    JOHN
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "AC permanent-magnet electric motor, 94 hp, 155 lb-ft"

    Prius' 50kW motor can make 295 lbs-ft torque. 155 lb-ft torque from 70kW electric motor is very low.

    "The engine is a version of the Escape's standard Duratec four adapted to the more efficient Atkinson cycle by closing the intake valve late, well after the compression stroke has begun. This increases the expansion ratio, which adds four-percent efficiency at a cost of lower torque."

    Prius' 1.5L Atkinson cycle ICE is at least 15% more efficient than comparable 1.5L Otto cycle ICE. All I can say is that not all Atkinson cycle ICEs are created equal.

    Dennis
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    ...I love all these assumptions that the Prius will never have anything go wrong with it. There was a Douglas Adams book wherein all the manufacturers were required to place a plaque on every product that read "Anything that cannot possibly go wrong is almost impossible to fix when it does."
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I love all these assumptions that the Prius will never have anything go wrong with it.

    Where?

    I certainly haven't made any?

    Increased reliability is what we've been discussing, not an infallible design.

    It should last longer, not forever.

    But like all things, it still has the potential to eventually break.

    JOHN
  • pennipuppennipup Member Posts: 2
    Like your name, "nippononly"...used to be the way I felt about Japanese-made cars until this nonsense about (non)availability of the Prius that you mention. I was informed by one dealer that the reason there is a ridiculous shortage is due to the fact that the Prius is NOT made in the US at this time. Makes you wonder how anybody knows how to work on them, in that case...

    Anyway, for the first time in over 20 years, I'm considering the FORD "Escape" because they said they would have them in stock and I wouldn't have to "order" one, and if I DID order one, then I could have any color I want. Ever try to order a color of Prius?

    I'm glad you noticed this artificial shortage that is a colossolly stupid marketing strategy!
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    The shortage is pretty much non existent where I'm at here is south Texas (but you get to deal with the gulf states toyota group ...) and Toyota's stupid marketing strategy is working real well from what I can tell, are you thinking about a plain gas powered Escape or a Escape hybrid ?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
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    Hybrid Vehicles Chat Room

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    The Town Hall chats are a great place to take these message board topics LIVE. Hope to see you there this week!

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  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=70079

    short excerpt-
    Australian television personality Shaun Murphy is about to finish his bizarre challenge. He's driven, ridden, flown and canoed his way 16,000 miles across America without stopping at a gas station.

    Fueled by cow pies, garbage, sunshine, crawfish, wind, water, whisky and cooking oil, Murphy and his dog Sparky are set to finish the final leg of their cross-country road trip this week. Driving a stretch Hummer Limo powered by food....-end
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I can't picture pouring good whiskey into a Hummer...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Great story, what a kick in the pants. Leave it to an Aussie to try something like that. A real Crocodile Dundee type. I'm not sure I would get into an airplane running on whiskey, unless it was Crown Royal..
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Another extensive article that debunks a lot of the hype on the hybrids, EV's and Fuel Cell cost effectiveness.

    http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/mar01/hev.html
  • sdufordsduford Member Posts: 577
    You shouldn't buy a hybrid to save money; you should buy a hybrid because you care about the environment and our dwindling fossil fuel reserves.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Talking about trying to derail this discussion.

    That article is 3.5 YEARS OLD!

    The datestamp on the file copy I downloaded to my hard-drive says 3/11/2001.

    Neither vehicle is accurately portrayed either anymore. The Corolla is a much larger car now. And not only is the Prius bigger, it is clearly more efficient.

    Nice try, but that article requires lots of updates to be relevant to the market now.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The vehicles are different, fuel prices are higher, the article is several years old, and it's major point that hybrids do not make economic sense is still relevant and correct. Hybrids do not present a cost savings compared to similar non-hybrid vehicles.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    What does "economic sense" mean?

    For many people, it means preparing for the future. And in that case, paying a little more to protect yourself against ever-climbing fuel prices is a wise choice.

    Why is "cost savings" a factor?

    That doesn't even make any sense for an objective stance. "Break Even" is far more appropriate.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Actually I was looking for information on Fuel Cells. That article included Hybrid technology, I'm sorry if it was old news already posted. I was more interested in the fact that fuel cells for a vehicle at that time were $160k. However, I don't think the hybrid is anywhere near out of the woods on cost effectiveness. If it turns out to go a 200k miles with little or no trouble. It will be excellent for Los Angeles commuters. That could amount to more cars than Toyota plans to build. Toyota web site says they are back-ordered 22,000 right now, today. According to Toyota that will hold up the production of the other planned Hybrids in their stable. So even if you want one you got a half year minimum wait to get one.
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