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Hybrids in the News
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Comments
EVERY car maker has POLLUTERS...
but
Not EVERY car maker has Hybrids.....
So don't the Hybrid makers deserve credit for that? I think the common viewpoint would be YES they deserve credit for doing their part, however small it is.....
I think that question has already been answered. Even a few Porsche drivers are so called environmentalists that will buy a *Green* Porsche. Not to mention they could steal a few buyers from let's say MB, BMW, or even Lexus with a Hybrid Porsche.
"They sell a total of less that 20,000 per year."
Don't you think one of their intentions for adding a hybrid model is to INCREASE Sales? Now, who woulda thunk that?
"If Porsche is serious it is only to get in on the "Green" bandwagon. "
Here's another duh remark....Porsche has already admitted it wants a Hybrid Cayenne to improve it's image, hence to give Porsche a slightly Green image. This is nothing new, try reading press releases where they openly admit it.
Isn't Germany a Third World country?
At least Toyota and Honda are trying to do something about the pollution issue! Meanwhile we have good old GM trying to do nothing! Let's not forget GM has a lot more pollution mobiles and they are a higher proportion of total sales!
Oh yeah, but I forgot, Japan is a Third World Country!
Here's a person who thinks Japan is a Third world country!! Enough said!
I have no intention upon taking this up with Porshce or with you, maxhonda99.
Porsche Cayenne is not on my weekend buy list and never will be---even with a lottery ticket!
Honda and BMW are going to be introducing diesels. VW, MB and Chrysler are going to increase their diesel product lines.
If these super efficient diesels pass the 07 emissions without a hefty increase in engine costs and low sulphur diesel do not sell at hefty prices---these vehicles certainly will provide a great alternative to hybrids.
It does appear that Honda realizes the limitations of hybrids, otherwise why would they want to introduce diesels in N. America?
I see these surveys used a lot on Edmund's. The only place I see it on the web is the ANTI-SUV weblogs. Who's survey are you referring to? Most of the people I know in CA with 4X4 vehicles go out in the desert all winter long where they need the ability to haul there toys across sandy washes to the camping areas. I can believe that 95% of the people East of the Rockies have no need for offroad capabilities. I would like to see this legitimate survey that was used to refute the argument that the RX400h is useless without offroad ability. It sure turned me off on the vehicle. I did like the Highlander until I found out it is just a fat RX400h with no utility ability.
BTW
Germany & Japan have not changed in a week they are still dependent on us for their survival. What's your point? You think hybrids will make Japan a super power?
In fact, it‘s been reported that Porsche is considering using the Hybrid Synergy Drive powerplant from this high-end Toyota model.
http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=news&ArticleID=57
I still wonder what kind of person would buy one.
oh come on. Look around you. Who with a Ford Explorer, Lexus RX, Mercedes M-class, Chevy Trailblazer, Toyota 4-Runner is going off-road? Very few, even in CA. Most of the people you know must be the off-roading. But most of the people you know aren't reflective of the overall SUV owner's community.
Surveys: there are data compilations by manufacturer's, as well as just about every other auto expert or wannabe auto expert that have come to similar 90%+ conclusions about SUV owner's who never go off-road. Otherwise, how do you explain the popularity of car based SUVs like the Lexus RX330, Acura MDX, Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander, Ford Escape, etc.???? And go figure, how do you explain the relative failure of some body on frame SUVs that are good at off-roading in the marketplace, such as the Mercedes ML, or the VW Touareg?
"I would like to see this legitimate survey that was used to refute the argument that the RX400h is useless without offroad ability."
What??? That makes no sense. Who has said the RX400h is useless without off-road ability other than you??? Basically no one. Do you not see waiting lists for the RX400h? People paying full MSRP?? Obviously it's not useless as you continually claim otherwise people wouldn't be lining up to buy one!
"Germany & Japan have not changed in a week they are still dependent on us for their survival. What's your point?"
My point is, I still laugh whenever I read one of your posts, because I am constantly reminded of your statement that Japan is a THird World country!
Here's a spin for you: If Japan is a THird World Country because they are dependant on us, does that make India a superpower because they are not dependant on the U.S.?? Or does that make India a *first world* country?
BTW, I thought Japan was a Third World country because they build parts over there that then get shipped to the US for auto manufacturing? And supposedly their plants spew out all sorts of contaminants, unlike U.S. plants? Correct?
How does Porsche may use Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive mean they will use a Toyota engine?? HSD is just the electric portion and associated software of the powertrain.
"I still wonder what kind of person would buy one. "
Keep wondering about that and many more things!
For the first four months of 2005, Wards reports car sales are up just over 3%, while SUV sales down neary 2%. Analysts think the big reason is skyrocketing gas prices. Ford Motor Company officials say at one point, fuel economy never cracked the top ten among buyer concerns. Now it's in the top five.
Consumers have discovered hybrid electric cars and other new models. "The manufacturers pushed SUV's very hard and let cars sit in the background," said Paul Anstead of Dave White Chevrolet. "Now they're trying to update their car sales. Bringing out new products and I think that's helping cars there too."
It was bound to happen someday folks - most things are cyclical.
http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=3383326
The emission arguement for hybrids will be lost when all cars must meet SULEV levels in the near future and the gas milage arguement will be lost when diesels arrive on the scene.
"Hybridization" to achieve higher MPG and cleaner emissions is not a trend. It's more like when cars first had automatic transmissions, and comparable to when the first cars had ABS or the first cars had built-in alarms.
Hybridization is here to stay. It might get hotter and colder, but until the next technological breakthrough (fuel cell or whatever) comes around, hybridization is not going anywhere....
Diesels have been *on the scene* for decades in the U.S. During the REAL gas crisis of the late 70s when diesel prices were lower than gas, diesels didn't catch on. And you think now, when there isn't even a gas crisis, diesels will? Carmakers as it is think they will have a tough time meeting looming emissions standards for diesels that take effect in a few years and currently automakers can't even sell diesels in some of the biggest markets in the US(california & NY).
"The emission arguement for hybrids will be lost when all cars must meet SULEV levels".
Huh. does that mean every SULEV rated car sold in the US will go 50 miles on a gallon of gas? Wow! I'll be amazed when a 5.7L Hemi powered 300C will put out 300+ bhp, be SULEV rated, and will give 50MPG!
HEre's a few reason why hybrids will most likely stick around:
1) It's a new technology and will get cheaper.
2) The Hybrid systems will get simpler and/or much more reliable very quickly.
3) Each successive generation of hybrid technology will provide for better power and increased fuel economy.
4) Weight will decrease due to reason #2 and enhanced battery technology.
Check out the 1st generation Prius vs. 2nd generation Prius. The 2nd generation Prius grew in size, in weight, gained a bigger ICE engine, gained in horsepower, decreased 0-60 times drastically and at the same time it improved its MPG numbers.
RESTON, Va., May 24 /PRNewswire/ -- A new analysis based on comScore Media Metrix qSearch data revealed that nearly 700,000 Americans searched online for fuel efficiency-related terms in March 2005. These consumers conducted more than 1.5 million searches for terms such as "gas prices," "hybrid cars," "Toyota Prius," and "gas mileage." This online search activity has increased with growth in overall gas prices, with the number of consumers searching for fuel efficiency terms growing by 112 percent between February and March.
Consumer interest in fuel economy is also evident in online searches related to hybrid vehicles. Hybrids still represent a small segment of the auto industry, with only 88,000 vehicles sold in all of 2004, according to J.D. Power and Associates. Yet according to comScore qSearch, more than 300,000 Americans submitted hybrid-related search terms in March 2005 alone."
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050524/cgtu064.html?.v=9
Molokai, just to keep you better informed BMW, Audi and Honda are introducting diesels soon. All three are high quality marques although Honda #11 rating based on JD Power 2005 Quality results is nothing to boast about. BMW is #3 brand and Audi is #8---not too shabby in terms of quality dont you think? Hopefully Honda will keep up with the Germans soon?
ABSOLUTELY!! I do think so. This is not the 70s or 80s and to compare todays diesels with yesterdays diesels is like comparing a Commodore PCs with Pentium4 PCs.
My wife's diesel was manufactured during the disreputable era of diesels--a 83 MB300D. That MB deserve a Guiness World Record for reliability, quality and durability(attributes that are somewhat important for a car dont you think?)
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Yes, I think diesels will be much more successful this time around once diesel fuel is cleaned up for improved emissions.
But, and a big but at that, people on here are making it seem like a couple of diesels are going to come onto the market in a couple of years and take the U.S. by storm. To think that a country so in love with the gas automobile, is going to switch over to diesel overnight is ludicrous, that's all!!
Cant argue with that! It will interesting to see how gas efficient vehicles develop in the future. My bias will be towards the best one based on pricing and gas savings, whether hybrid, diesel or electrical( Mitsubushi in 2010 intends to introduce a value priced electrical Colt---that should be interesting assuming Mitsubushi survives until 2010!!)
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=3&id=338220
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new_cars/touran
Maybe your government uses more common sense than ours.
There are two sides to the debate:
1) Let market prices of fuel determine the gas efficiency of cars with minimal taxes.
2) Let the Government tax fuel highly in order to influence conservation. This sounds logical until you discover how Governments wastefully spend the additional funds.
No need to bring sacks full of money unless you are renting a Hummer H2.
The Touran is not sold here either - what's your point???
P.S. The Estima Hybrid minivan sold in Japan gets 44 MPG US....:D
Translates to $3.20/gallon. About $1.00 more than Detroit.
The opinion of the autobloggers above seem to be shared among many! A large number of people are interested in a hybrid but are waiting until hybirds are priced at a level that is economically justifiable in terms of fuel savings. That will be the time when hybrids will break out of its niche and become more mainstream. Assuming reliability stats remain positive overall.
With a large family of 6, we would have loved to replace our current Sienna with a hybrid version.
California state gov has a website that contains a list of cars (ICE and Hybrid) that produce at most 2 pounds of pollution in 100K miles. Some have great mileage, some are average. Unfortunately, none of the current minivans is on that list. Hopefully, the hybrid Sienna will.
Going slightly off-topic:
A few "debates" earlier spoke of Touran and how it puts Toyota/honda hybrids to shame.
It will be more helpful to compare oranges to oranges in this "Hybrid News" forum so we can all learn of new cars and models of a specific class that compare well or worse against hybrids of same or similar class.
The Touran uses a tiny engine that produces 100 hp @ 5600 RPM and 109 lb-ft of max torque @ 3800 RPM. It is smaller than any minivan we have in America regardless of MFG. It likely can compare against a Ford Escort type wagon or at best a Taurus wagon. It certainly cannot compare against a mid-size SUV, hybrid or not, nor should it be compared against a sub-compact or compact sedan, hybrid or not.
The Sienna is about 4100 pounds, right? So it would likely get similar mileage to the Lexus 400, and would have the same engine and drivetrain?
It is already getting 19/26 MPG, so I suppose getting 32 (city)/29 (highway) would be useful, if you do mostly in town driving. The road mileage would be too close to really repay the extra cost of the hybrid. As I recall, the Sienna got 23 MPG in town on some of the reviews.
However, the Sienna might also normally carry heavier loads than the RX, since it is a minivan.
The cost difference will continue to get smaller because of technology and battery advances, but it will PROBABLY never become a "slam dunk" to recover the extra cost by fuel savings in 4 years or less, IF you are a pessimist who thinks gas savings is only $400 a year or something low like that. I personally tend to think the number is closer to the $900 per year survey number !!!
What all those "waiters" are missing out on is "gas savings RIGHT NOW EVERY DAY." The last survey of Hybrid owners found they are saving on average $900 per year, PLENTY to cover the extra cost of the hybridization in the high mileage hybrids for sure. I myself am spending only about $43 per month on fuel, compared to $172 per month last year before I bought my hybrid.
The "waiters" are also going to lose out on the tax break, which unless extended will expire in 2006. This is a prime example of the old wise statement, "He Who Hesitates Is Lost."
I can't imagine a day when a hybrid will cost less than $1200 more than the comparable gas version of the car.
Of course a hybrid version of the same car will not equal the price of a gas version. Similarily an auto tranny continues to cost more than a manual tranny.
You are quite a pessimist! Whose to say that the next generation of hybrids will not be able to break-even in 4 years? Assuming you are correct---hybrids will remain niche vehicles. But I believe you are incorrect, I think there will be substantial improvements in future batteries, electrical motors, software/hardware components in a few years hence that upcoming hybrids will make todays fuel efficient hybrids look like a joke !
Now we are really focused on this forum's subject matter!
Also the BMW 3 series is a niche vehicle! So outselling a niche vehicle does not make a Prius a non-niche vehicle!
Yes, we use our van mostly in town with kids in tow. Our '99 Sienna is close to 4K lbs too and gets 18.5 MPG when driven normally but conservatively. It yields 20 MPG when driven with great care. A hybrid version that yields 30MPG will definitely help. Our local gas price hovers at $2.85 so it is slowly burning a hole in our pockets.
Paying the right price is important but recouping cost of a hybrid is not our only focus. It is all a balance of needs, product value and environmental concerns.
A car that has high safety rating, is "cleaner" (driveclea.ca.gov), reliable, long lasting, capable of meeting all our hauling needs and yet return a good gas mileage is worth considering.
If a hybrid version can be made to last beyond 240K miles or over 15 years until all our kids leave home, it is definitely worth considering. This is realistic because we have 2 gas sipping domestic compact ICE models, considered poor quality by CR, that kept on working past 200K miles.