Hybrids in the News

john1701a · July 2004

"IMMEDIATE" is correct, but extraordinarily misleading since the discussion has been about mid to long term.

Remember, the 2004 isn't even in production now. So short-term discussions make no sense. Spar-2 of the 2005 model year is the soonest quantity speculation can focused on now.

JOHN

moparbad · July 2004

quote GM executives-Though General Motors CEO Rick Wagoner has promised to put in place enough capacity to produce one million hybrid-electric vehicles annually, many observers remain skeptical of the giant automaker's commitment to the fuel-saving powertrain technology. Comments by Vice Chairman Bob Lutz suggest that GM is convinced there really is a market for hybrids, but clearly not nearly enough to support Wagoner's ambitious numbers. "The market is hot right now" for hybrids, Lutz told TheCarConnection, "but it's a limited segment. Under no circumstances will it exceed four or five percent of the market." Even so, Lutz acknowledged that could top 700,000 vehicles annually, "and that's worth taking a look at." The environmentally friendly technology has won a lot of praise from green-minded buyers, but there's been a minor backlash from those, including Consumer Reports magazine, who feel their potential fuel savings has been exaggerated. Lutz does not think the impact on sales will be severe. "People don't buy it (hybrids) for fuel economy," he argued. "They buy it to make a statement."-end

Exaggerated fuel savings and buying to make a statement....hmmmm.

john1701a · July 2004

What does "HYBRID" mean?

He could be talking about anything. Heck, just a few years ago a heavily moded Civic (that had no modifications to the engine what so ever) was called a "hybrid".

And of course, his implication that hybrids can only be configured in one particular way to serve only one particular market segment is totally, completely false. Toyota has already proven that HSD can be configured 3 different ways. The Prius currently available, the racing Prius, and the Highlander-Hybrid. Each has a very different purpose, yet each uses HSD and reduces emissions & increase efficiency.

When there is money to be made, they simply are not going to ignore the opportunity. The success of HSD will force them to change their tune... or drive them into bankruptcy. Now which do you think they will choose?

The actual reason they are bad-mouthing hybrids is that they have nothing to compete with yet. As soon as they do, it will be as if they had never sad anything negative about the technology or the potential market.

JOHN

gagrice · July 2004

The following statements all made by you along with many others, are totally uncorroborated. Yet if any of us put out a statement that you disagree with you insist on corroborating evidence. If we post links to that evidence you discount it as false. Would you like us to ask every time you post a statement to give a link to your source of information? We can do that to keep you honest. The facts are evident that Toyota is falling flat on their promises to deliver on the Prius and the other hybrids they are working on. Your denial of those facts does not make them any less factual. And always falling back to the "in the future" argument gets old.
6/28/04
That is just plain wrong. I never said "2004" even once. The profit comments were always about the classic model, since we had plenty of published articles supporting that it had in fact been achieved.
And why are you in total denial that Toyota has announced double the production for 2005 than in 2004?
Also, why are you completely ignoring the fact that Toyota will in fact reach it's long-standing goal of 300,000 systems per year worldwide by the end of 2005?
Discussing the 2004 Prius is totally pointless, since production for it ends in just a few days.
6/30/04
Perhaps I should (again) point out that Toyota has posted overall results of quarterly profits recently, while GM & Ford both report losses. In other words, Toyota has capital to invest into LONG-TERM projects. GM & Ford are simply struggling to survive.
7/1/04
Kerry is strongly behind hybrids. He understands how a full hybrid can very easily be adapted to use a fuel-cell instead of an engine.
7/19/04
Since 2002, Toyota has been saying their plans are to produce 300,000 hybrid systems per year worldwide by the end 2005.
7/25/04
Haven't you noticed how the SUV market is collapsing?

stevedebi · July 2004

Both posted profits of over 1.2 Billion this past quarter... just clarifying the issue...

gagrice · July 2004

I don't think they are near bankruptcy.

john1701a · July 2004

> just clarifying

Not really, it actually confuses matters, since that is a clear drop in sales... an 11% fall in June, down 5.97 percent from a year ago.

Toyota's sales were up 5%, not down. There's an obvious trend in their favor.

Here's more info

JOHN

rfruth · July 2004

Road Test: 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid, 2004 Toyota Prius, 2004 Honda Insight, 2003 Toyota Prius, State Of The Hybrid Union: http://motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0405_hybrid/

gagrice · July 2004

That is a good cross section of the High mileage vehicles out there. Some won't like the remarks made by the writer when he says:
"Of course, a diesel-powered hybrid would return even better fuel economy"

"In fact, we'd guess the new Prius, starting at $20,510, is the most heavily subsidized car on the market today."

rfruth · July 2004

Agreed some won't like the diesel hybrid comment but considering the source and the fact that its mostly a rerun of an existing article, not bad.

gagrice · July 2004

They seem to really like the Prius, they gave it car of the year if I remember correctly. So many of these articles rehash stuff. I don't care for all the minute details and formulas. I liked the Aussie driving the Prius 5300 KM. He told it as he saw it. It was a fun read.

gagrice · July 2004

Haven't you noticed how the SUV market is collapsing?

Further clarification on the SUV market. So far this year 129,942 more SUVs were sold than last year at this time. GM of course leads the pack with 615k SUVs sold this year to date. Beating their last years sales by about 41K SUVs. During this same period Toyota sold 256K SUVs a distant 4th place after GM, DCC & Ford in that order.

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp

john1701a · July 2004

I dropped enough hints. They were obviously completely missed. How many times have I pointed out vague references require detail? Perhaps, when it is to your advantage...

Anywho, not once was the meaning of "SUV" ever defined.

Do you know what vehicles are really included?

They very well could be counting all the hot new wagons too!

No matter, any of those sales below intended market value pulls in too little profit for all the manufacturing bills to be paid.

Remember, even though Prius is currently sold at a loss, it is still at the intended market value. Toyota is establishing an expectation. They will continue at that same price once the high-volume production kicks in. Profit will then be achieved... which isn't true for the already establish SUV market. They are giving discounts just so the stock doesn't pile up.

JOHN

gagrice · July 2004

We may have a point of agreement. The vehicles that are called SUV's are mostly wannabe's (see list on website). To me an SUV is a Suburban, Land Cruiser, Excursion & maybe a Hummer2. Although it is not very practical which eliminates the U for utility. I did not make up the list of so called SUVs it is a very broad brush that is used to describe them. I have no doubt the Prius will eventually make Toyota money. They are going to have to get the suppliers lined out before that can happen.

mfullmer · August 2004

You are never going to get John from being vague on his own answers and then yelling "vague" when he sees something he doesn't like. He's not really objective and tired of posting follow ups to his remarks when I find proof they are wrong.

On the other hand, he spurs lively conversation and since Hybrid powered (yes John, all "hybrids" even if they are not Toyota) vehicles are an exciting topic we need the conversation and, since internet content is not censored for accuracy, it's each person's own responsibility to take each comment or claim and do their research to find out if it is valid or not.

john1701a · August 2004

LONG-TERM goals interfere with the "in the now" arguments presented here. Too bad. With strong sales continuing and routine award winning, HSD will become a very popular choice as time goes on.

Get over it.

JOHN

Sylvia · August 2004

Hey folks, let's not start the week (and month) out with personal snipes.

stevedebi · August 2004

GM:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=30&article- _id=8369

529 Million from auto sales...

Ford:

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=30&article- _id=8365

However, Ford did only make 83 Million before special pretax charges, and actually lost 57 million after special charges. I think they are still working out the pension problems. The former headine of 1.2 billion referred to all units, including credit.

So, 50% correct ain't all that bad..

Haven't seen the numbers on DC yet.

kalmikey · August 2004

Hmmm, try that when you have to make a trip to Home Depot or Sears and come back with slightly outsized cargo.

Home Depot offers their own trucks for spot-rental, cheap.

Sears delivers -- at least, they used to. Maybe they're lamer, these days.

Next case?

stevedebi · August 2004

I guess I'm old fashioned, I don't consider $50 (sears delivery) or $40 (home depot) cheap...

Not to mention taking the lawn mower in for repair, helping friends move appliances, etc...

kalmikey · August 2004

How often do you have to do it?

If you have to do it two or three times a year, than three Home Depot truck rentals are $120.

Tell me you wouldn't save $120 in car payments alone -- forget the gas -- by buying a car that fits what you actually do with it *every day*, instead of sizing the car you buy to fit what you do a few times a year?

I'm not saying that nobody should own SUVs or trucks. I'm saying that more people should think about what they actually use their vehicle for *most* of the time.

As it happens, we *own* a truck. We bought it when we did a lot more hauling-of-stuff, a lot more often. We keep it because it's paid for, and we do still have occasional uses for it...

But we don't commute in it...

backy · August 2004

Funny how most folks in Europe seem to get by just fine owning one car, typically a hatchback, instead of a SUV or truck. And they need to visit home supply stores and haul appliances and lawn equipment too. Gas at $5 a gallon and limited space for parking probably have something to do with that.

john1701a · August 2004

> I don't consider... $40 (home depot) cheap

Fortunately, it doesn't actually cost that much.

It's just $19.95 for 75 minutes of use here.

JOHN

stevedebi · August 2004

Thanks John, guess prices have gone down... since I got my SUV and haven't looked at them... ;-).

Yes, I would suspect that $5 a gallon would do a lot towards making people use smaller cars. However, for the record, Europe also has excellent mass transit, and does not have the large real estate problem we have here in the (western) US, i.e., it is spread out a lot and not condusive to mass transit...

backy · August 2004

What does being "spread out" and the lack of mass transit have to do with SUV ownership? Are you suggesting they haul their appliances on the underground, or a bus? Even in those areas of the European countryside not served well by mass transit, drivers seem to make do with smaller vehicles. If gas gets to $5 a gallon in the U.S., watch those SUVs start disappearing and the small hatchbacks start filling the roads just like in Europe.

gagrice · August 2004

I'm with you, convenience is worth a lot. For you Anti-SUV folks there is a great forum that always has interesting debate on the subject of whether SUVs are good or bad. Those against could always use another voice, as they are losing the battle.

stevedebi · August 2004

Have you lived in Europe? I have...

"Countryside" is no more than 5-8KM from the next villiage, and the villages tend to have their own groceries and shops. Many europeans don't even own a car. Also, the vehicles are taxed based on engine size, which tends to reward smaller cars. But just like here, the rich drive what they want, and those large cars are just that - large, and not very fuel efficient (difficult to get fuel effeciency in a 10 cylinder)!

They have their appliances delivered, unless one of the farmers has a truck (a real truck, not a pickup), which is more likely.

My point was about the differences between Europe and the western US. And anyway, for much of the rural west, more rugged suspensions and higher ground clearances are required to drive the unimproved roads. You could do it with a small sedan - if you wanted to have to rebuild it every year or so...

backy · August 2004

Well, the rich will always drive what they want. No news there. But I had no idea that Los Angeles had so many unimproved roads.

I know a lot of Americans who have their appliances delivered also. The store I like to use has a perk of no-charge delivery and setup--so I can use their truck instead of owning or renting one.

This is not about "SUVs are bad." It's about making most efficient use of resources.

And it's not about Hybrids in the News either, so I guess we need to get back to that...

stevedebi · August 2004

"Well, the rich will always drive what they want. No news there. But I had no idea that Los Angeles had so many unimproved roads."

Hmmm, I didn't mean to mention LA in my posts. I travel around the west several times a year.

But actually, your comment is not far off. The main roads in the San Fernando valley are OK, but the back streets can be down right bad, depending on where you live. You practically need that extra height and ruggend suspension...

And now back to our regularly scheduled board...

stevedebi · August 2004

http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt.jsp?section=news&cat=I- NDUSTRY&feed=dji&news_id=dji-00082320040804&date=2004- 0804

hongcho · August 2004

I guess this thread has the "news" title...

I've noticed this for the past several weeks, but I read this news (Reuter article on oil price's impact on the stock market) that the oil price per barrel has hit a new high at 44.50.

The crude oil price has been going up for the past couple weeks, and usually the pump price immediately jumps whenever there is such a "bad" news.

But guess what... I live in San Jose, CA (95124), and the pump price has been going down for the past couple of weeks! In fact, it just went down by $0.02 yesterday!

What's going on here? Are the U.S. oil "cartels" trying to protect "someone"? So, does this mean that we won't see any gas price increase till November?

(a bit tongue-in-cheek mood...)

Hong.

gagrice · August 2004

I think it takes a few weeks to catch up to the crude price at the refineries. Our price in San Diego Costco stores just went below $2 today. Guess I better fill the Suburban before it heads back up.

rfruth · August 2004

If only GM did more in the hybrid arena - snip - INDIANAPOLIS - The Chevrolet Silverado Parallel Hybrid Truck (PHT) provided a real-world demonstration of General Motors' hybrid technology after a local power outage threatened to shutdown Chevy's largest annual motorsport display at the NASCAR Brickyard 400 on Saturday.

http://tinyurl.com/7x7qw

hongcho · August 2004

And... the crude oil price goes even further up and no change in the pump price...

Conspiracy theory thickens...

Hong.

john1701a · August 2004

There is a 4 to 6 week delay before the price catches up.

Panic on Wallstreet's part really isn't directly related.

JOHN

sduford · August 2004

Here in Canada, the prices usually go up immediately when oil goes up, but they come down only about 4-6 weeks after a drop in oil prices...

I'd like to hear an explanation for that one!

kenk25 · August 2004

same in the US also. any excuse to jack up the price

rfruth · August 2004

Wow you diesel fans must be giddy - snip - Toyota Considering Making Diesel-Electric Hybrid Vehicles by Trevor Hofmann
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=27614&amp- ;pg=1

gagrice · August 2004

Giddy might be a little strong. It is good news for those of us that would like to see bio-diesel more widely used, cutting out the middle east altogether. I would consider a Toyota especially if they can give me a highly efficient diesel PU. Don't have much need for a car.

rfruth · August 2004

A highly efficient P/U (be it a hybrid, diesel or both) would be great even the current (2004) Prius is darn good.

turboshadow · August 2004

Has anyone noticed how much the 2004 Prius resembles the mid-eighties Corolla 5 door hatchback? It kept reminding me of some other car, and I saw an old Corolla hatch on the road this am, and I immediately saw the resemblence.

Turboshadow

backy · August 2004

You mean in that they are both Toyota 5-door hatchbacks? Other than that I see about zero resemblence. The Prius is much sleeker and taller, and the front and rear ends are totally different. The Prius has the split rear glass and totally different headlights, tailights, and grille. It has the roof-mount antenna. Unique alloy wheels. No side rub strips. Etc.

quasar4 · August 2004

Here's an article from USAToday entitled:

Driver's irked as mileage fails to add up

Shame that it has to take an act of Congress to right a clear wrong.

turboshadow · August 2004

Take a look past the superficial surface stuff. The hardpoints look similar to me, but not the same. The point I was trying to make is that there are enough similarities to make me wonder if Toyota looked at how they needed to allocate space, saw that it was similar to the old Corolla 5 door, and used old data as a basis to design a new car.

Now, I'm not saying it IS the old car, and there is nothing wrong with doing that from an engineering standpoint. I was just intrigued by what I saw as a general similarity.

Turboshadow

backy · August 2004

Yes, there is a general similarity: they are both five-door fastback-style cars. Beyond that I see no similarity apart from what I would see if I compared the Prius to any other 5-door fastback-styled car, e.g. the Elantra GT. To me, the Prius bears more resemblence to the Elantra than to the mid-80s Corolla. Who knows, maybe Toyota modeled the Prius after the Elantra.

turboshadow · August 2004

Elantra, no way...proportions are completely different. I see what you're getting at, but next time you see an old Corolla just keep an open mind.

Personally, I always liked that car. Shoot, I like the Prius. I wouldn't buy one 'cause it doesn't fit my needs, driving style. Too each his own.

Turboshadow

quasar4 · August 2004

Here's Wired Magazine's bent on hybrids Hot Hot Hot!!!

rfruth · August 2004

This would stir things up - snip - Honda Motor Co. is considering developing a fourth hybrid vehicle, a gasoline-electric light truck, as rival Toyota prepares to launch two hybrid SUVs next year. http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0408/25/c01-253343.htm

rfruth · August 2004

Mercedes-Benz will offer a gasoline-electric hybrid powertrain in its next-generation S-Class. The hybrid will likely debut a year from now at the Frankfurt motor show.
http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100683

moparbad · August 2004

http://www.cars.com/news/stories/082504_storya_lt.jhtml?page=news- story&aff=chitrib

quote-
Citing the costs for increased production of its popular Prius, Toyota Motor Corp. said Monday it would raise the price of the five-seat, gasoline-electric hybrid car by $580 in the United States.

The 2.9 percent increase, effective Sept. 14, follows a $300 price hike in April. Most buyers have to wait months for delivery of the popular Prius. -end

Odd, prices are increasing, not decreasing as production increases.

Hybrids in the News

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