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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    That does not make sense (or cents) at all. The 2006 model hybrid will be PZEV rated. That non-hybrid is only ULEV. That's a very big difference, of importance that simply cannot not be ignored or dismissed.

    Our definition of "very big" may differ, but if you're that worried about it by a PZEV Focus. Or a PZEV Explorer for that matter, lol.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote larsb- They weren't driving on MARS my friend. These are examples of REAL PEOPLE driving the hybrids like ANYONE ELSE can do also, with the proper training. -end

    The people who are complaining about low mpg with hybrids are examples of real people. Door swings both directions.

    Independent studies in British Columbia and California have made the financial truth of hybrids clear, and you can work your own case out quite simply when you get quotes from your dealer.
    hybrids won't save you any money
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    I supposed if I tied a dead holstein to the bumper and insisted on depressing the gas pedal down to the floor at the turn of every green light, I could complain about low gas mileage.

    In fact, if I let 20 pounds of pressure out of my Prius's tires, added a roof rack, and took the front foiler off, I could trim another 10 MPG.

    I'd be willing to bet that I could make ANY (and I mean ANY) Prius on the lot get 54 MPG in the city. I'd be willing to bet ANYTHING on it.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote moparbad-"The people who are complaining about low mpg with hybrids are examples of real people. Door swings both directions."-end quote...

    No, that's absolutely incorrect. The people who are complaining about not getting good MPG in hybrids are people who are UNWILLING to use the instrumentation and tips and tools to help them learn how to drive for most efficient MPG.

    It's not the technology, it's the driving style that is the problem for those people.

    HOSTS - can you point us to which forum to use to continue this discussion - it's not "Hybrids in the News" but it needs to be debated nonetheless. Thanks
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    H meets D

    quote danashields-And that If we somehow found ourselves just a smidge short of gasoline (I know...it's a bizarre thought), I'd rather own something with an electric motor under the hood rather than a turbocharger. -end

    If there was no petroleum today, I could make fuel in my garage to use in my vehicle, and yes, my vehicle does have a turbocharger. Fuel that is made from renewable sources. Fuel that can be made without the need of electricity. No need for a plug! And it is not ethanol!
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Moparbad:

    There is much to be said for the latest non-hybrid’s vs. their hybrid counterparts when looking at $’s alone. Especially if you are a mostly highway driver … That being said, saying the HCH is not worth 50 mpg and pointing to a link by some nut that could not receive 32 mpg in his is a bit over the top, don’t you think? I have received a touch south of 40, 50, and 60 mpg in the non-hybrid Ranger P/U, Corolla, and Accord respectively but have been south of 120 mpg peak/105 - 120 mpg sustained in both the HCH and the Prius II. The HCH and Prius II are capable of much more then the non-hybrid’s. While driving an 04 - CVT based HCH on an ~ 140 + mile, 90% highway, roundtrip on Chicago Interstates a few weeks ago, the HCH was worth ~ 75 mpg (72.x out and 79.x back) if driven reasonably in 70 + degree temps. She allowed > 105 mpg when cruising ~ 10 miles through the heart of the city of Chicago during non-rush and a non-hybrid (except for an EV) may never achieve that kind of FE in the foreseeable future. This did not include all my techniques given the owner was in the passenger seat and said “no you don’t” ;)

    John1701a, you and I will never get along but I do have to say the Prius II is capable of a hell of a lot more FE then any non-hybrid other then maybe a SMART .6 L Diesel with acceleration rates measured using a sun dial. A public apology to you is in the offing in regards to what it is capable of although your own FE needs a lot of improvement when promoting the Prius II as you do imho … With that, the EPA has posted that the 01 - 03 Prius was only available as a ULEV-I throughout most of the country? I have to wonder if someone didn’t make a mistake when posting that info on their own website? Either way, consider an alternative view point where emissions are concerned as even the AT-PZEV based Prius II is a dirtier vehicle then some non-hybrid PZEV’s that some of us do in fact own.

    Dewey, the 5-speed MT based 06 Civic is EPA rated lower then its Auto based counterpart. I bet its 5th gear is shorter then the Auto but I have yet to see the actual specs from Hondanews or ToV.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    Oops. Another screwup. There aren't any Priuses on the lot...
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    And who's the addict??
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    hybrid mpg
    While the EPA rated the Honda Civic hybrid at 47 miles per gallon in the city, consumer reports got just 26 miles per gallon. The EPA rated the Toyota Prius at 60 miles per gallon in the city.

    "We actually got 35, so it's a big difference," says Champion.


    Consumer Reports obtained 26 mpg. Send your complaints to CR.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    So – for substantially less than the Prius’s $21,275 sticker price, you get a car that while smaller in stature, offers equivalent mileage, similar utility, all the regular safety & comfort features, and a simple and easy-to-maintain drive-train.
    Jazz vs. Hybrid
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    I will take ANYBODY'S "errant" Prius and get the figures I stated above. It's driving style.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Don't buy the hype
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    and because you don't own a hybrid, you don't know that.
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    54 MPG in the city.
    60 MPG - 70 MPG on the highway.

    I can do that in anybody's Prius.

    (And GM doesn't pay me.)
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    And you're right. The monoplane and the inflatable tire and that disc brake crap is a total scam.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Moparbad:

    I do not think anyone here needs to send CR’s anything. They received 26 mpg from an HCH, so be it. The average HCH (CVT/MT) user according to GH’s RHMDB is receiving 45/47.x respectively.

    In regards to the Fit/Jazz, I am looking forward to it! It has a much smaller exterior then any hybrid available other then maybe the Insight. The 2 and 4-door Toyota Echo was available for many years yet the American public would not touch it and it was larger then the Fit/Jazz! You are talking 2,100 - 2,300 # Aveo/Aerio size and styled automobiles here. In the real world however, Honda has geared the 1.4 L iDSI (it uses the exact same ICE as the HCH although it is only 1.339 L) lower then the HCH and thus the real world FE does not match that of the much heavier HCH. Do I wish they were available right now? You bet as it would give the lower income folks an alternative vs. the horrific FE and resale the domestics have to offer today. Will enough individuals make the switch to the mini’s here in the states at $2.50 - $3.00 per to make them a profitable venture has yet to be determined.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote-And you're right. The monoplane and the inflatable tire and that disc brake crap is a total scam-end

    I knew the Prius had disc brakes and inflatable tires, however, I had no idea it was a monoplane too!
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    LOL

    Good one.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Simple math
    Here's the bottom line: You should consider buying a full hybrid vehicle (one that can run on its electric motor alone) if you want to reduce CO2 exhaust emissions, particularly if you do most of your driving in the city.

    But if you want to save money, taking into account the purchase price of the vehicle, then you will be better off buying a conventional model, even at today's elevated gas prices.

    How is this so? Currently, the most prominent hybrid models on the market -- the Toyota Prius, Honda Accord and Ford Escape -- cost several thousand dollars more than comparable conventional models.

    Simple math tells you that even with gas at $5 a gallon, these vehicles will take as long as four years to pay for themselves.

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0509/28/F01-329795.htm
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    Or if you have become concerned about those red bags on ALL the pump handles at gas stations and want to leave yourself the open-ended option of converting to a plug in if there are shortages (irrespective of price).

    I have a feeling a lot of people who post on this site aren't familiar with Atlanta's shortages in the past two months.

    Like where the price is 3.09 but you'd pay 5.09 someplace that actually had some.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Again, Toyota stands out. The company's CEO eventually wants to sell 1 million hybrids globally a year by early next decade, but how Toyota does this will be important. Following up on the unexpected success of the gas-sipping Prius, Lexus recently released the RX 400h luxury SUV hybrid, touting it online as possessing "exceptional power -- not just for a hybrid vehicle, but for an SUV as well." Lexus is not marketing its fuel efficiency, even though the estimated 31 mpg in the city is a big improvement over the estimated 17 mpg of its gas-only twin, the RX 330. The downside is that on the highway it barely bests the 330 by a meager 1-2 mpg. Representing Toyota at the Sierra Club's 2005 Sierra Summit in early September, Dave Hermance, executive engineer for advanced fuel vehicles at the Toyota Technical Center, recognized that they could have put more emphasis on fuel efficiency, but said that for marketing reasons they chose power.

    http://www.alternet.org/envirohealth/25972/
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    Sorry, I meant month. Not two months, although it feels like that.
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    It's my impression that a LOT of Prius owners wouldn't count Toyota among their friends.

    We're just buying the best thing we can find to accomplish what we hope to do.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Power Technology Inc. (OTCBB:PWTC) announced today it has manufactured an advanced glass matt prototype battery containing its patent-pending reticulated vitreous carbon current collectors, and the prototype will be delivered to a major hybrid automobile manufacturer for comprehensive testing.

    http://www.primezone.com/newsroom/news.html?d=87010
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    From Gary's #3059 post above - Gary left off the GOOD NEWS part of the story:

    "The Big Effects of a Simple Solution

    This concept of every car as a hybrid represents a sort of "Eureka" moment. Ford's fuel cell car is a hybrid. So is Toyota's. Why not create a clean diesel hybrid, or a plug-in hybrid, or a hybrid using any other alternative fuel? It doesn't matter right now that every car isn't a hybrid, because eventually they will be.

    After all, electronic fuel injection wasn't always standard either. Why shouldn't a car be able to capture energy from braking? And why do any cars still idle at stoplights and in stop and go traffic? These all represent wasted energy, and now that hybrids show you can harness it, it's only a matter of time before this technology becomes commonplace in the auto industry.

    Fact is, despite the understandable reservations of environmentalists, if costs come down and hybrid systems improve (and assuming the efficiency isn't diverted into performance, again), this could easily become a standard feature that would kick average fuel efficiency up to 40 mpg"

    So yes, it's HAZY, but only in the hazy picture of how many hybrids we are going to have and when EVERY Toyota and EVERY Ford offers hybridization as an option - not IF it will happen but WHEN is the Hazy part.
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    Awesome. I keep saying that if we stop looking at all of this as an energy production crisis and instead look at it as an energy storage crisis, we have more options.

    We're in the DARK AGES when it comes to energy storage, proven by our having to store a bunch of oil drums somewhere down south. And we're about to bust that barrier.

    Soon. Very soon!!
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Danashields:

    Prices at the pump suck for everybody, not just non-hybrid owners … I do not know what kind of range you are receiving in your hybrid but it may be a bit lower then some non-hybrids? If you live in Atlanta, one could easily travel there and a touch over ½ way back to Chicago on a single tank of fuel in a PZEV based non-hybrid Accord. Can you do the same from Atlanta to Chicago and back in a hybrid? I do know of a fair share of individuals that can but very very few unfortunately :(

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    I'm unsure what you're asking.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    And I thought the only true hybrid was a Prius!

    CHAMPAIGN, Ill., Sept. 28 (UPI) -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign scientists say a hybrid grass that can grow 13 feet high may become a renewable source of fuel in the future.

    Stephen Long, a professor of crop sciences and biology, and doctoral students Emily Heaton and Frank Dohleman said the dry and leafless Giant Miscanthus stems might be used as solid fuel.

    "Forty percent of U.S. energy is used as electricity," Heaton said. "The easiest way to get electricity is using a solid fuel, such as coal."

    The cool weather-friendly perennial grass is sometimes referred to as elephant grass or E-grass.

    Rhizomatous grasses such as Miscanthus are very clean fuels, said Dohleman.

    The researchers said the grass produces a very efficient fuel, with an energy ratio of input to output less than 0.2. In contrast, the ratios exceed 0.8 for ethanol and biodiesel from canola, which are other plant-derived energy sources.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&article=UPI-1-20050928-18353800-bc-- us-grassfuel.xml
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Danashields:

    When there was an actual shortage in Atlanta, was it better to have a longer range or higher FE?

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    With a gas can stored handily next to my mower in a large can, I'd say probably MPG. (I've posted on this site my desire to buy a pre-1995 suburban in which to store gasoline, but it was generally thought that I was a moron).

    Last thursday night, gas was very difficult to find north of Atlanta. Many stations were out. Then, Friday, the Georgia governor announced school closings to "save gas", which you can translate to mean, "there wasn't enough."
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    I'm telling ya: you adopt a vastly different psychology when your world changes from "gas prices really suck" to "which station has got some". Especially when the station which "has got some" has throttled back their pumps so that it takes about five minutes to pump a gallon.

    The landscape changes, if you know what I mean. Suddenly you're confronted with a kooky world where your neighbor has a bicycle tied to the roof of his Chevy van.
  • danashieldsdanashields Member Posts: 49
    And you find conversations like the one I had with moparbad barely tolerable.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I know it's easy to get off into all kinds of different subjects regarding hybrids, but let's TRY to stick to the topics and avoid drift here. A lot of the stuff that's been posted about mileage really belongs in the Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected? discussion.

    It would be appreciated if you could contain yourself and stay within range of the topics on the board. We simply can't go into EVERY subject area in every topic. When we do, it makes it really difficult to maintain topic-oriented discussions.

    I'm going to move the post discussing mileage to the topic I mentioned, but we need YOU folks to help out by paying attention to the title of the discussions you're posting in. Thanks.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    TO: PF Flyer...How about a Thread Topic ....."Hybrids..General Discussion"
    Where by a more general area of conversations could occur.
    Railroadjames
    (notice ..I didn't just go off and start it without concurring w/ you 1st) :blush:
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    That's what we have the Hybrids Board for. The different discussions we have cover the range of subject matter and keep all the information roughly separated by subject matter.

    Having a "general discussion" would would simply be a place to have a discussion that would be a hodgepodge. Discussion with no topic is not what we're about here.

    Again, you can't go into every aspect of everything in every topic. That's just the way it is. Time to work a little harder at posting on topic. if you have something to say about HCH mileage, or the "hybrid premium", or whatever it is, PLEASE scan the topic list and find the appropriate topic to post in.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    GM

    and

    GM rethinks hybrid strategy
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Subaru
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Mack hybrid
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Some reader response to article posted earlier

    WSJ
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Damiler-Chrysler have two advanced engines out on the market right now. The fully electronicly controled diesl in the new E-Series which is supposed to be good for about 30 mpg in an over 4000 lbs sedan and the variable displacment Hemi V8 in the charger, magnum and 300C also good for about 30 mpg. Combine those two technologies with a hybrid electric powertrain and I don't see why you could not get 50-60 mpg in a large sedan.

    http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/sedans/0405_mercedes_benz_e320_cdi/

    http://auto.consumerguide.com/Articles/index.cfm/act/trendarticles/article/TA_May_2005.htm- l
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050- 930005124&newsLang=en

    "September 30, 2005 07:00 AM US Eastern Timezone

    Flexcar Announces First White House Shared Car; ''Flexcar One'' Will Make It Easier for WH Staffers to Answer the President's Call for Driving Less, Riding Mass Transit More

    WASHINGTON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 30, 2005--In an effort to help White House staff answer the President's call to drive less and carpool and ride public transit more, Flexcar has introduced the first White House shared car. Conveniently located a few hundred yards from the West Wing, in a reserved Flexcar parking spot, the Honda Civic Hybrid -- nicknamed "Flexcar One," in honor of its potential users -- is available for White House staff to use for meetings or other trips. Having on-demand access to a car will allow them to commute to work via transit or carpool yet still have access to a car during the day.

    In a letter to the President, Flexcar has offered to provide their first hour of use free of charge, as well as add more cars if needed -- even deploy a Flexcar vehicle on White House grounds, if the White House so requests.

    "The President has asked his staff and all Americans to do their part to reduce consumption of fuel and energy," said Steve Case, the co-founder of AOL, and now the majority owner of Flexcar. "Flexcar makes it easy for people to ride transit or carpool. With our numerous and convenient locations, you're never more than a few blocks and a click of the mouse away from having access to a car when you need one," Case added.

    Members reserve Flexcar vehicles via the Internet or phone for about $8 an hour -- a fee that includes gas, parking and insurance. Studies have shown that Flexcar members drive less, ride transit more and sell or avoid buying a vehicle -- all facts that are in line with the President's directive. "
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    difficult to read the bold print
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The 8 bucks an hour does not sound like a way to spend my tax dollars wisely. Maybe I missed something. Maybe they should just buy an HCH and park it out there for whoever needs to go on the Latte run.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    With rising fuel prices threatening the popularity of gas guzzling cars, Land Rover is looking at hybrid technology which uses a combination of electricity and petrol to power cars.

    Mr Faulk said: “Diesel is part of our short term plans at Land Rover, with the majority of the vehicles being diesel powered.

    “But we are also looking at alternative fuels and hybrids.

    http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/birminghampost/business/tm_objectid=16192411&method=fu- - ll&siteid=50002&headline=solihull-car-plant-could-produce-hybrid-vehicles-name_page.html
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    NEWSWEEK: 56 Percent of Americans Refuse to Downsize Vehicles Despite High Gas Prices. 'We Haven't Turned Into Wimps Overnight,' Says Car Industry Consultant

    According to the above statement, an auto analyst believes that anyone driving a small or hybrid gas miser is a wimp! I have one word to describe the analyst, but I dont want this post to be deleted by the host!

    For more riveting details read the article linked below:

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news/index_mail.shtml?ACCT=ind_focus.story&STORY=/www/story/10-0- - 2-2005/0004154907&EDATE=SUN+Oct+02+2005,+11:11+AM
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    A new MB S class hybrid?
    A new Audi Q7 hybrid?
    A Land Rover Hybrid?
    A Lexus GS450H

    I certainly hope frugality is not the key motive for buying the above vehicles ;)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    What you get with those cars is:

    1. Better gas mileage than the gas-only equivalent of the same vehicle.
    2. Lower emissions than the gas-only equivalent of the same vehicle.
    3. A hybrid in your garage, for whatever that is worth to your self-esteem. :D

    Face the reality that hybrids are no longer only for "extreme high MPG little cars" but will continue to be a way to "get more MPG out of an engine" regardless if the MPG involved.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "get more MPG out of an engine" regardless if the MPG involved.

    At what cost? Can the average car buyer relate or justify the premium?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It's not a"premium" - It's paying extra for an extra benefit. Better gas mileage and ability (in many cases) to drive on electric power only. And Lower emissions.

    It's not like you are "paying for nothing" - you are paying for an extra benefit.
This discussion has been closed.

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