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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think price increase was inevitable. When Toyota witnessed the dealers charging as much as $5k premium they wanted some of it. As a rule car prices go up most every year. If they are going to make a go of the hybrid they need to make them profitable.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, the price increase should please all the people who were concerned that Toyota was not making enough profit on the car. Also, the rear wiper was added as standard equipment, making the effective increase $400--less than 2%.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think anyone was unhappy with the MSRP of the Prius. It is the $1000 to $5000 added by the dealers that has gotten the bad press.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    From all the posts I've seen in the Prius and hybrid boards over the past few months questioning whether the Prius is profitable for Toyota, and also the posts complaining about the long waiting lists for the Prius, I got the distinct impression that those people would be happier if Toyota raised the price of the Prius to improve both situations. They will make more profit, and the higher price might get some potential buyers to rethink their choice of cars. And as demand falls, that will limit the markup that greedy dealers can put on the car.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I do see Toyota's side of the coin. Why shut down a plant that is building high profit vehicles and use it to build a vehicle that is less profitable. They will probably expand and build factories specifically designed for hybrid production. I don't think the demand for high mileage vehicles is going to diminish. They may lose a few customers that tire of the wait. I'm not a big Toyota fan, but they must be doing something right. Their balance sheet is hard to argue with.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    At the risk of straying further off topic... Toyota wouldn't need to devote assembly lines just to hybrids. That would be inflexible. They know how to run factories that produce multiple lines of cars, e.g. the factory in Japan that makes the Prius also makes Corollas and Camrys. But yes, they must be doing something right--although they seem to have underestimated demand for the 5-door Prius.
  • sirjimsirjim Member Posts: 3
    The (very modest) increases in the price of the Prius are due to basic economics: limited/cautious initial production supply vs. HUGE and unanticipated demand! What other vehicle has a "waiting list" of customers at virtually all dealerships? When I signed up for the Prius in late February, Longo Toyota's wait list was approaching 300 customers. When I took delivery of my Pruis last week (late Aug. ) Longo's wait list for the Prius was nearing 800!

    You can bet that nearly all of those customers would be willing to pay at least $1000 or more for the car if only they could get it -and they haven't even driven one but for a test drive!

    Supply and demand. I hope Toyota makes a killing off the Prius. They certainly put their (R&D) money where their mouth is - unlike leaderless and shortsighted GM, Ford & Daimler!
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote- HUGE and unanticipated demand! What other vehicle has a "waiting list" of customers at virtually all dealerships? When I signed up for the Prius in late February, Longo Toyota's wait list was approaching 300 customers. When I took delivery of my Pruis last week (late Aug. ) Longo's wait list for the Prius was nearing 800!

    You can bet that nearly all of those customers would be willing to pay at least $1000 or more for the car if only they could get it -and they haven't even driven one but for a test drive!-end
    No wait list of 800 in the Midwest. No wait list at Carmax and last week they had one for less than MSRP! I checked at local dealers and there are a few with wait list of up to 3 customers, however, there are several dealers with Prius (not the demo) sitting on the lot waiting for a buyer. People are used to $2 gas and are still buying their SUV's and now the most common new car I see is the big DCX Hemi Sedan and Wagon.

    CA is a very unique market for vehicles.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Supply and demand. I hope Toyota makes a killing off the Prius. They certainly put their (R&D) money where their mouth is - unlike leaderless and shortsighted GM, Ford & Daimler!

    You have a short memory. GM spent over 2 BILLION dollars on the EV-1 project. They finally abandoned it. Not sure if infrastructure or the cost of maintaining batteries or lack of interest was the cause. I think CA is unique and very fad oriented. If a few of the celebrities get tired of the Prius they will be on the used car lots sitting with the batteries going bad.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    The EV-1 was a half-hearted attempt, yea GM spent money but it doesn't take a transportation engineer to tell you a car over 30 K with a range of 70 miles isn't going to cut it. This from a company that is supposedly looking out for our best intrist ?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    I waiting for the Jetson's car announced in the Houston paper on 8/28. Not only will it have good mileage, it can fly over wrecks and congested areas.

    JOHN, Isn't that LONG TERM thinking ??

    Personally, I have blown off hybrids and am looking for performance , fun and handling. After regurgitating the numbers, mileage isn't that important. It may amount to $150 a month , but when air cond is $300 and house payments are $3,000 what is $150 ???

    Also, Hybrids are just not their in performance or TCO

    Go S2000!!!

    YMMV,

    The MidCow speaks :)

    MidCow

    P.S. UPS is adding fuel cell vehicles to their fleet.
    P.S.S- In spite of unofficial Toyota spokesman , John, Toyota is seriously entertaining diesel hybrids. Maybe someone doesn't know as much about Toyota as the expound!!!!!!
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    What a foolish statement. Used Prius' are a HOT item today. Have a look at autotrader and ebay!!
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    S2000? Be prepared to keep the revs above 8000 or else you got squat!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What a foolish statement. Used Prius' are a HOT item today

    You hit it right on the head. They are HOT TODAY. No one knows the future. If the past is any precursor of the future, the fad will fade and something else will take it's place. It may be another Hybrid or who knows. The Prius is clean, green and economical. It is still not the car for the masses. I don't get any indication from the posters on this forum they own a Prius because the cost of fuel was putting them in the poorhouse. Most of the owners are high tech types wanting to make a statement. Nothing wrong with that. Just not indicative of the average American family that need inexpensive transportation.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually I had a GSR before and the torque is not as bad as that. You don't have to keep the RPMs up to 8,000 for spirited driving. Only if you want to get 0-60 in 5.6 seconds.

    Off the line a Prius has average acceleration until about 30 because of the electric motor torque. But 10-5-11.5 seconds 0 to 60 is just too slow and NO MANUAL!. But the S2000 is much much quicker and no reving to 8,000.

    The Prius is just Toyota's beta test machine for thier full hybrid system. Hopefully Toyota can leverage some of the HSD development costs and make the other hybrids profitable.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "the fad will fade and something else will take it's place."

    Hybrid technology is not a FAD. The high value of Prius cars right now is the only "faddish" aspect. The market force that is driving up the price is "availability", i.e., the laws of supply and demand. There is a little bit of the "I can't get one so I want one REALLY BAD" human nature in play also. The Average household income of Prius owners is $100,000, so a large number of Prius owners likely do have a little money to play with.

    Mark this as Gospel: The price of used Prius cars will remain high and inflated as long as the supply is limited and dealers can charge premium prices for them. Once the supply is readily available, NO ONE will pay over sticker or over Blue Book for a Prius or any other Hybrid.

    That may take 2-3 years though - so if you are a venture capital type, buy a few Priuses and cash in !!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are probably correct that hybrid technology is here to stay. I just cannot imagine a young family on a median $45k income spending $30k to save a few bucks a month in gas. Or waiting for months to get a car. Most people that really need a car, need it now not next year. Not to mention that if you stopped people on the street in any major city, I doubt that 1 in 10 know what a hybrid car is.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Supply and demand. One should remember the PT Cruiser - people were paying 20K above MSRP when they first came out. THis for a bunch of sheet metal over Dodge Neon mechanicals.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I hope they did not pay $20,000 over MSRP. That was a fad car too. It had that retro 1940s look and just caught on. I don't think economay was part of the appeal. My tax man ordered one after seeing one in a picture. It had a look people liked. I don't think the Prius has that appeal. The first Prius was downright ugly and only slightly improved for 2004. It is the high tech green factor that sells the Prius.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    unlike leaderless and shortsighted GM, Ford & Daimler!

    Chrysler also built a hybrid in the late 1990s. I guess they dumped it due to high cost of materials in the late 90s. The first Prius was also a huge loss for Toyota. Their gamble may be paying off. We shall see.

    http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The first Prius was also a huge loss for Toyota.

    Toyota's Chairman, Okuda-san, disagrees with that statement:

    http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=4302
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Yes, Toyota has stated that by the end of production for the first generation Prius a profit was being obtained. Toyota also has stated that a profit will be made on the second generation Prius.

    Hybrids still do not make financial sense for consumer. quote-Even so, hybrids don't make sense strictly from a financial standpoint. Since they have not one but two power sources, they cost between $3,000 and $5,000 more than their conventional counterparts—not including any dealer markups. So you'd have to keep a hybrid a long time just to break even despite the savings at the gas pump.-end

    Environment rather than $ is the major factor in the purchase of a hybrid.

    quote-Actually, the jury is still out. at the moment, the average Prius buyer earns more than $100,000 a year, so a few thousand bucks to help the planet—or just to look smug—isn't much of a hardship.-end

    http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-tm-prius- 35aug29,1,1751467.story?coll=la-home-magazine
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Whether or not a hybrid makes financial sense for a consumer depends on what alternatives they are considering. If the alternative is a high-mpg small ICE car, then it's doubtful the price difference can be overcome just with fuel savings. But if the alternative is a larger vehicle, say a minivan or SUV, then it's quite possible that a hybrid could "break even" just with gas savings over the term of ownership.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.mlive.com/business/aanews/index.ssf?/base/business-2/1- 093805274157230.xml

    quote-Among the most innovative - and least publicized - types of vehicles being delivered in Ann Arbor today are diesel-hydraulic hybrids.

    Researchers at both the University of Michigan and the Environmental Protection Agency's National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory in Ann Arbor are pursuing this new technology. They all agree it could usher in a new era of fuel-efficient trucks and other heavy vehicles. -end
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Good articles. What I liked was having a vehicle the size of a Ford Expedition that runs on a 1.9L TDI engine. And it is equal to the Prius in acceleration, without the costly batteries, electric motors & CVT. Look out Toyota your glory may be short lived.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/technology/420f04019.pdf

    Projected payback for added cost is achieved w/in 1 year!
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Sounds good, not some pie in the sky idea when might one hit the show rooms here in the states ?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If it works as the article claims, it could be built much easier and faster than any of the hybrids. It will not need exotic metals and battery patents to overcome. I'll bet this is off the shelf hydraulic components. some of the biggest earth moving equipment built use the same technology. I wonder why it took this long to put it together.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Even if a small diesel engine does the trick (though it does sacrifice ome towing capacity), it will still cost about $1,000 more than the gasoline engine. Then, you need roughly $400 more equipment to cleanse the low-sulfur diesel exhaust (to remove NOx & PM) to a level the EPA will allow. Plus, you have to add $600 for the hydraulic equipment.

    That's around a $2,000 premium... mighty close to the projected mass-production cost of a HSD hybrid without the interface frills.

    And of course, noise could be a deterent. The hydraulics will add to the clatter of the diesel engine.

    What exactly is the benefit?

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    it will still cost about $1,000 more than the gasoline engine.

    Funny I did not see anything in the EPA article that said the Diesel would cost $1000 more than the gas engine. As a matter of fact I'll bet that VW TDI costs less than the big V8 the Expedition has in it now. And do you think the EPA is going to forget the Environmental aspects of this vehicle? You have such a difficult time accepting change. Get used to it, the batteries in the hybrid electric, are it's Achilles heel. If you can find a way to store electricity in a device that is very small & light weight, you will have solved the problem with all electric based vehicles. Until then other innovation will take it's place as well as existing technology.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    And of course, noise could be a deterent. The hydraulics will add to the clatter of the diesel engine.

    When was the last time you heard a hydraulic device make noise? They are as quiet if not quieter than an electric motor.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > If you can find a way to store electricity in a device that is very small & light weight

    99 POUNDS is heavy!?!

    And the size is equal to 6 LOAVES OF BREAD.

    Since when isn't that small & light? Heck, a full-size 14" wheel is 32 pounds and about the same size. Taken into perspective, it is no big deal.

    And how in the heck are you suppose to power the steering & A/C without using electricity? Fire up the engine just for that? What a waste.

    Of course, once again you are totally dismissing the possibility of a diesel hybrid.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Of course, once again you are totally dismissing the possibility of a diesel hybrid.

    That would be silly as there are buses all over the country that are diesel hybrid.

    A standard auto battery can handle the electrical needs of the car while the engine is not running same as the Prius.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote john-And how in the heck are you suppose to power the steering & A/C without using electricity? Fire up the engine just for that? What a waste.-end

    The energy stored in the accumulator powers A/C and steering and generates electricity.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote john- it will still cost about $1,000 more than the gasoline engine.-end

    Diesel option is a VW Passat is $200 more than gasoline engine. Production costs are nearly at parity for diesel engine compared to gasoline engine.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > A standard auto battery can handle the electrical needs of the car while the engine is not running same as the Prius.

    That is absolutely false.

    The entire auto industry is upgrading to bigger 42-volt batteries because the load cannot even be handled by the 12-volt while the engine is running.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Diesel option is a VW Passat is $200 more than gasoline engine.

    Where's the data to support that claim?

    The reports I've read state an average difference of $1,200.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > That would be silly

    Yet, you did it anyway. Hmm?

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually it's $1280 according to MSRPs on the '04 Passat GL and GLS sedans, comparing the 1.8T (lowest-cost gas engine on the Passat) to the TDI versions.

    Maybe the most cost-effective application of the hydraulic hybrid concept is on larger vehicles, where the small diesel engine would replace a much larger engine, and the hydraulic components would not need to be down-sized as much to fit a smaller platform. The article mentioned earlier stated that a car the size of a Taurus could handle the hydraulic hybrid concept. That's still a pretty big car (at least for someone like me who drives compacts). An electric hybrid powertrain can fit into a compact or even sub-compact sized car, offering more possible applications. I also am wondering how much maintenance would be required on a hydraulic system like that, and how much it would cost. For example, would the fluid need to be flushed at regular intervals? How long would the hydraulic components last before needing overhaul?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > The energy stored in the accumulator powers A/C and steering and generates electricity.

    Where does it say it will?

    Just because it can, doesn't mean that the automaker will actually offer the feature. Both Prius & Escape are full hybrids. One has electric A/C, the other doesn't.

    By the way, sometimes I do take what I read lightly. You just have to laugh it can be so absurd. Apparently, myself and all my Prius owning friends make over $100,000 per year. That's quite a raise for me since last week's paycheck!!!

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the only thing that is keeping VW popular in the states is the TDI. The dealer I was talking to in Las Vegas sells at MSRP on the TDI and gives discounts on the gas version. My dealer in San Diego is like a morgue. They are not offering TDI. Of course I asked just to torment the salesman.

    On the hydraulic Expedition I have many questions as well. I just learned of this attempt at using hydraulics. Those of us that spend a lot of time around heavy equipment are not surprised they are going that route. We just wonder what took them so long. It has been sitting in front of us for years. As far as the maintenance of hydraulic systems, They flush them out when the fluid is dirty or burnt. Overload can cause the fluid to get hot and break down. It is a much older technology than HSD. It has not been adapted to small cars. I am anxious to see all new attempts at saving on fossil fuels. I don't have my mind made up as to which is best. Another couple years and we all will have a better idea.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Apparently, myself and all my Prius owning friends make over $100,000 per year. That's quite a raise for me since last week's paycheck!!!

    congratulations on the raise. Now you can get a new Prius every two years and not take a chance on the old one dying before the 3 year warranty is up....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The entire auto industry is upgrading to bigger 42-volt batteries because the load cannot even be handled by the 12-volt while the engine is running.

    Many insiders would like us to go to the 42 volt system. I don't know of any that have at this time. Maybe the Hydraulic Expedition will lead the way. I think it is a good plan...
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote- By the way, sometimes I do take what I read lightly. You just have to laugh it can be so absurd. Apparently, myself and all my Prius owning friends make over $100,000 per year. That's quite a raise for me since last week's paycheck!!!
    JOHN-end

    You are at the wrong end of the bell curve on this statistic John;)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > You are at the wrong end of the bell curve on this statistic

    SHOW ME THE DATA!

    We have found bogus statistics before. Where in the world did that reporter "get" his? My data proves he is wrong. And I bet my owner sampling is quite a bit larger than his.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    No matter, hydraulics are a dead-end technology anyway. What future improvement opportunities are there? With a full hybrid, the next step is simple. An advancement in battery-technology, which either reduces cost or increases energy-density, will immediately create a benefit. It has already been well proven that a bigger battery-pack in Prius will result in a higher MPG average. A lower price tag bares obvious appeal too. And what about fuel-cells? A full hybrid can easily utilize the electricity it creates. The same cannot be said for hydraulics.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote John-No matter, hydraulics are a dead-end technology anyway.-end

    SHOW ME THE DATA!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I already did.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote- new report from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis confirms what many light rail skeptics have been saying for some time: It would be less costly to buy new cars for transit riders than build and subsidize new rail systems.

    The Fed report says it would be considerably cheaper to give a new Toyota Prius to each low-income rider of the St. Louis light rail line, and replace it with a new Prius every five years, than it is to operate that rail line.-end

    http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15340
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