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Hybrids in the News
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You can bet that nearly all of those customers would be willing to pay at least $1000 or more for the car if only they could get it -and they haven't even driven one but for a test drive!
Supply and demand. I hope Toyota makes a killing off the Prius. They certainly put their (R&D) money where their mouth is - unlike leaderless and shortsighted GM, Ford & Daimler!
You can bet that nearly all of those customers would be willing to pay at least $1000 or more for the car if only they could get it -and they haven't even driven one but for a test drive!-end
No wait list of 800 in the Midwest. No wait list at Carmax and last week they had one for less than MSRP! I checked at local dealers and there are a few with wait list of up to 3 customers, however, there are several dealers with Prius (not the demo) sitting on the lot waiting for a buyer. People are used to $2 gas and are still buying their SUV's and now the most common new car I see is the big DCX Hemi Sedan and Wagon.
CA is a very unique market for vehicles.
You have a short memory. GM spent over 2 BILLION dollars on the EV-1 project. They finally abandoned it. Not sure if infrastructure or the cost of maintaining batteries or lack of interest was the cause. I think CA is unique and very fad oriented. If a few of the celebrities get tired of the Prius they will be on the used car lots sitting with the batteries going bad.
JOHN, Isn't that LONG TERM thinking ??
Personally, I have blown off hybrids and am looking for performance , fun and handling. After regurgitating the numbers, mileage isn't that important. It may amount to $150 a month , but when air cond is $300 and house payments are $3,000 what is $150 ???
Also, Hybrids are just not their in performance or TCO
Go S2000!!!
YMMV,
The MidCow speaks
MidCow
P.S. UPS is adding fuel cell vehicles to their fleet.
P.S.S- In spite of unofficial Toyota spokesman , John, Toyota is seriously entertaining diesel hybrids. Maybe someone doesn't know as much about Toyota as the expound!!!!!!
You hit it right on the head. They are HOT TODAY. No one knows the future. If the past is any precursor of the future, the fad will fade and something else will take it's place. It may be another Hybrid or who knows. The Prius is clean, green and economical. It is still not the car for the masses. I don't get any indication from the posters on this forum they own a Prius because the cost of fuel was putting them in the poorhouse. Most of the owners are high tech types wanting to make a statement. Nothing wrong with that. Just not indicative of the average American family that need inexpensive transportation.
Off the line a Prius has average acceleration until about 30 because of the electric motor torque. But 10-5-11.5 seconds 0 to 60 is just too slow and NO MANUAL!. But the S2000 is much much quicker and no reving to 8,000.
The Prius is just Toyota's beta test machine for thier full hybrid system. Hopefully Toyota can leverage some of the HSD development costs and make the other hybrids profitable.
Hybrid technology is not a FAD. The high value of Prius cars right now is the only "faddish" aspect. The market force that is driving up the price is "availability", i.e., the laws of supply and demand. There is a little bit of the "I can't get one so I want one REALLY BAD" human nature in play also. The Average household income of Prius owners is $100,000, so a large number of Prius owners likely do have a little money to play with.
Mark this as Gospel: The price of used Prius cars will remain high and inflated as long as the supply is limited and dealers can charge premium prices for them. Once the supply is readily available, NO ONE will pay over sticker or over Blue Book for a Prius or any other Hybrid.
That may take 2-3 years though - so if you are a venture capital type, buy a few Priuses and cash in !!
Chrysler also built a hybrid in the late 1990s. I guess they dumped it due to high cost of materials in the late 90s. The first Prius was also a huge loss for Toyota. Their gamble may be paying off. We shall see.
http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html
Toyota's Chairman, Okuda-san, disagrees with that statement:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=4302
Hybrids still do not make financial sense for consumer. quote-Even so, hybrids don't make sense strictly from a financial standpoint. Since they have not one but two power sources, they cost between $3,000 and $5,000 more than their conventional counterparts—not including any dealer markups. So you'd have to keep a hybrid a long time just to break even despite the savings at the gas pump.-end
Environment rather than $ is the major factor in the purchase of a hybrid.
quote-Actually, the jury is still out. at the moment, the average Prius buyer earns more than $100,000 a year, so a few thousand bucks to help the planet—or just to look smug—isn't much of a hardship.-end
http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-tm-prius- 35aug29,1,1751467.story?coll=la-home-magazine
quote-Among the most innovative - and least publicized - types of vehicles being delivered in Ann Arbor today are diesel-hydraulic hybrids.
Researchers at both the University of Michigan and the Environmental Protection Agency's National Vehicle and Fuel Emissions Laboratory in Ann Arbor are pursuing this new technology. They all agree it could usher in a new era of fuel-efficient trucks and other heavy vehicles. -end
Diesel hydraulic hybrid appears to have much promise.
http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2004/3/04_- sae_congress/index4.phtml
Projected payback for added cost is achieved w/in 1 year!
That's around a $2,000 premium... mighty close to the projected mass-production cost of a HSD hybrid without the interface frills.
And of course, noise could be a deterent. The hydraulics will add to the clatter of the diesel engine.
What exactly is the benefit?
JOHN
Funny I did not see anything in the EPA article that said the Diesel would cost $1000 more than the gas engine. As a matter of fact I'll bet that VW TDI costs less than the big V8 the Expedition has in it now. And do you think the EPA is going to forget the Environmental aspects of this vehicle? You have such a difficult time accepting change. Get used to it, the batteries in the hybrid electric, are it's Achilles heel. If you can find a way to store electricity in a device that is very small & light weight, you will have solved the problem with all electric based vehicles. Until then other innovation will take it's place as well as existing technology.
When was the last time you heard a hydraulic device make noise? They are as quiet if not quieter than an electric motor.
99 POUNDS is heavy!?!
And the size is equal to 6 LOAVES OF BREAD.
Since when isn't that small & light? Heck, a full-size 14" wheel is 32 pounds and about the same size. Taken into perspective, it is no big deal.
And how in the heck are you suppose to power the steering & A/C without using electricity? Fire up the engine just for that? What a waste.
Of course, once again you are totally dismissing the possibility of a diesel hybrid.
JOHN
That would be silly as there are buses all over the country that are diesel hybrid.
A standard auto battery can handle the electrical needs of the car while the engine is not running same as the Prius.
The energy stored in the accumulator powers A/C and steering and generates electricity.
Diesel option is a VW Passat is $200 more than gasoline engine. Production costs are nearly at parity for diesel engine compared to gasoline engine.
That is absolutely false.
The entire auto industry is upgrading to bigger 42-volt batteries because the load cannot even be handled by the 12-volt while the engine is running.
JOHN
Where's the data to support that claim?
The reports I've read state an average difference of $1,200.
JOHN
Yet, you did it anyway. Hmm?
JOHN
Maybe the most cost-effective application of the hydraulic hybrid concept is on larger vehicles, where the small diesel engine would replace a much larger engine, and the hydraulic components would not need to be down-sized as much to fit a smaller platform. The article mentioned earlier stated that a car the size of a Taurus could handle the hydraulic hybrid concept. That's still a pretty big car (at least for someone like me who drives compacts). An electric hybrid powertrain can fit into a compact or even sub-compact sized car, offering more possible applications. I also am wondering how much maintenance would be required on a hydraulic system like that, and how much it would cost. For example, would the fluid need to be flushed at regular intervals? How long would the hydraulic components last before needing overhaul?
Where does it say it will?
Just because it can, doesn't mean that the automaker will actually offer the feature. Both Prius & Escape are full hybrids. One has electric A/C, the other doesn't.
By the way, sometimes I do take what I read lightly. You just have to laugh it can be so absurd. Apparently, myself and all my Prius owning friends make over $100,000 per year. That's quite a raise for me since last week's paycheck!!!
JOHN
On the hydraulic Expedition I have many questions as well. I just learned of this attempt at using hydraulics. Those of us that spend a lot of time around heavy equipment are not surprised they are going that route. We just wonder what took them so long. It has been sitting in front of us for years. As far as the maintenance of hydraulic systems, They flush them out when the fluid is dirty or burnt. Overload can cause the fluid to get hot and break down. It is a much older technology than HSD. It has not been adapted to small cars. I am anxious to see all new attempts at saving on fossil fuels. I don't have my mind made up as to which is best. Another couple years and we all will have a better idea.
congratulations on the raise. Now you can get a new Prius every two years and not take a chance on the old one dying before the 3 year warranty is up....
Many insiders would like us to go to the 42 volt system. I don't know of any that have at this time. Maybe the Hydraulic Expedition will lead the way. I think it is a good plan...
JOHN-end
You are at the wrong end of the bell curve on this statistic John;)
SHOW ME THE DATA!
We have found bogus statistics before. Where in the world did that reporter "get" his? My data proves he is wrong. And I bet my owner sampling is quite a bit larger than his.
JOHN
JOHN
SHOW ME THE DATA!
JOHN
The Fed report says it would be considerably cheaper to give a new Toyota Prius to each low-income rider of the St. Louis light rail line, and replace it with a new Prius every five years, than it is to operate that rail line.-end
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15340