Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Hybrids in the News
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Plug-in Hybrids and the nuclear power plants to charge those batteries. I prefer the simpler electric vehicles for day to day commuting and errands. Maybe a diesel or diesel/hybrid for long trips.
Mmmmmm, I dunno. When you said "will the oil companies MAKE the price of oil go up to compensate" (emphasis added is mine), it certainly appears as though you were making SOME kind of implication.
Using the word "make" implies they have direct control on price.
Using the word "compensate" implies they would do it in response to decreased demand.
But I'll agree - there are certainly some 'interesting' views in here. Makes for entertaining (and, I hope, thought provoking) reading.
There is a vast difference between colluding to set prices (implication being made) and modelling/planning to try to determine what the future prices might be.
Meteoroligist model the weather all the time - I don't know that anyone has accused them of AFFECTING the weather.
Of COURSE they model and plan; they've got to anticipate where prices will be 6, 12, 18, 24 months down the road to make intelligent business decisions NOW. But the ONLY way to have a real impact on prices is to either effect the SUPPLY of oil, or the DEMAND for oil. They certainly can have a direct impact on the SUPPLY side by curtailing production. But the problem the suppliers face is that if they screw with the SUPPLY of oil to affect the short term price (which would indeed rise) the long-term implications would be either reduced demand or a cooling off of the rise of demand.
You have to understand that these guys are NOT just thinking about the next quarters profits - they are thinking about the state of the industry in '08 and beyond.
Very true. If you want to research you can find BP's projection for Alaskan oil production through 2055. What I see being in the middle of the field, is higher levels of activity when the price goes up. If the oil companies controlled that price it would be a much more controlled reaction. When the price goes down exploration and production slow down or stop. When oil was floating along at $12 per barrel. Nothing was going on except the required production. When the price shot up exploration and production went crazy.
It is a crap shoot. I think it was better for the consumer with more players. The mergers made it easier to get together on pricing. It does not seem to have made any difference at the pump. We are still in a world market and have to pay whatever the highest bidder pays.
The chat gets underway at 9PM ET/6PM PT.
There's also going to be a special offer available only to those attending the chat, so don't miss this one.
Eagle One Team Chat
Hope to see you there!
Don't ever be fooled by the CAFE. Those figures are misleading. Manufacturers have built many cars for rental fleets just to offset their sellable units, which typically have gotten worse mileage than the CAFE would infer. Gas was historically cheap in this country and many folks enjoyed the big gas-guzzlers for generations! Trucks have actually represented the largest selling vehicles. So, when you think about it, your Camry hybrid will be a significant departure and improvement compared to the historical norm.
TagMan
rorr - don't put words in my mouth. I didn't SAY . . . I ASKED . . . and there is a big difference.
And, when you SAY "Mmmmmm, I dunno." you are placing yourself in the wrong position to be judgemental of my words . . . not a good idea.
Again . . . it was a QUESTION. That's it. Period. Accept it, and let's move forward. No need for a rhetorical analysis here.
And, we DO agree that it promted some great posts!
I think you are about to uncover one of my character flaws: anytime somebody warns me that something may not be a good idea, I have this overwhelming urge to ignore that warning.
Why would I be in the wrong position to be judgemental? You stated, specifically to me, that you were implying nothing; just asking a question. Regardless of what was INTENDED, there was (and still is) certainly a perceived implication. A MAJOR implication.
Example - would you agree there is a big difference in these two questions?:
1) As the overall political partisanship of our country increases, do you believe this would lead to more Democrats elected to higher office?
2) As the overall political partisanship of our country increases, do you believe that the national media will conspire to get more Democrats elected to higher office?
See, the first question has only a very mild implication. The second has a MAJOR implication; you can either agree with what is implied or not, but you can't deny that something is implied.
Your original question was along the same lines as my question #2.
Uh-oh, you're getting a little scary. Actually, you have a good sense of humor. rorr- we all have flaws. But I must suggest that this rhetorical analysis has gone a bit too far, and strayed off the path, wouldn't you agree? I would hate to think that such intense scrutiny and dissection should be applied to everyone's words in these posts. You certainly knew the general meaning of the question, as did many others, and that should be good enough. And I don't think the rest of the posters need this . . . so . . . c'mon . . . Let's just get back to talking about the hybrids!
I suppose I'd better before I kill this thread completely...
There are even ideas that you could plug your hybrid in at work, and the local utility would rent your little battery station to help even out flows. Very interesting stuff.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jan2006/bw20060131_870391.htm
We are back to the big premium and is it worth it? For me an absolute NO. I kind of like the Camry. I can buy the biggest, baddest, best equipped Camry XLE V6 for $26,844. The Prius which leaves a lot to be desired in comfort, handling, performance and luxury will cost me $31,417. that is $4500 more for a 10-15 MPG savings.
I am looking for a car to replace our 1990 Lexus LS400. It has 80k miles after 16 years. I want that kind of long term dependability. From the Prius owners posting here that is very unlikely. A Prius owner in a hopeless position at 61k miles.
Check this out: rakers, "Toyota Prius Software Problems" #666, 2 Feb 2006 5:07 am
Just to chime in here, while bio-diesel is great to some on a small scale it will never replace petroleum based diesel wide spread. This is because it would be impossible to produce enough.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have presented evidence several times to the contrary. The University of New Hampshire has a study that refutes your claim. It would require that people get rid of their inefficient gasoline cars. None of this will happen until we have depleted the Middle East reserves. The oil rich countries will undersell any form of alternate fuel. It was only $9 per barrel in 1998. Saudi Arabia can make money on a price even lower than that. With Qatar making diesel from their 500 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, diesel cars are the way to go in the future. Or should I say diesel/hybrid for those that like complexity in their vehicles.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
Total land area in the US About 3,500,000 square miles
640 Acres in a square miles gives us 2.24 Billion acres
an acre of land can produce 45.2 Bushels of soybean (Prudue University) that would give us 101.248 Billion Bushels of soybeans.
a bushel of soybeans can produce 1.4 gallons of bio-diesel (IA dept of argraculture) giving us 141.747 billion gallons of biodiesel or 100.67% of what your study says is needed.
But thats using every square inch of land to grow the crops. Only about 20% of the US is suitable for farming, so our figure drops to something like 22% of the nations needs.
Will McDonalds deep fryers make up for the other 78%?
Hybrids and diesels are only a temporary solution. We need something else and we need it soon.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
TagMan
In my week of rather lead-footed driving, I got 30.5 miles per gallon in mixed driving — outstanding for a big, heavy sedan but certainly nothing like the 40 mpg indicated by the government's soon-to-be-revised fuel economy tests.
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil1feb01,0,5637572- .story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1
One of the things has that been PROVEN so clearly regarding the hybrids . . . is just how much dramatic difference can be obtained, positively or negatively, by driving style. While this is true on vehicles in general, the POTENTIAL for variation is greater on the hybrid. Additionally, some hybrid owners report a learning curve that increases their results as they get used to the vehicle.
If all vehicles, for example lost 20% compared to their rating, then in a vehicle that is rated at 18 mpg, the result be be a loss of 3.6 mpg . . . but in a vehicle that is rated at 45 mpg, then the same 20% loss would be 9 mpg. So, it just LOOKS to be much more a significant difference. To address this issue, the EPA has announced that it will be changing the method of rating vehicles. Hopefully the new ratings will be more indicative of reality.
Regarding the Camry test, Dan Neil openly admits to being a "lead-foot", and yet still achieved an amazing 30.5 mpg! Imagine if he had driven a little more conservatively!
TagMan
One of the big benefits of the HSD is that you have two vehicles at your disposal.
1) Using the TCH like a normal V6 with 192 hp, driven in the most disadvantageous way, will get about 31 mpg like the testers did. But this is compared to other V6's where the combined mpg are in the 23-25 mpg range. The TCH will improve FE here by at least 25%
2) Using the best features of the HSD will give you a very very efficient 4c Camry. The Hwy FE will be ~35 mpg but a careful driver in the city will be able to get way over 40 mpg.
Which vehicle do you want to drive today?
I think it depends more on "What's in your Wallet".
Definitely this will be a strength for German car makers.
I mean what can be more German than having a bratwurst and a beer with its ethanol by-products in a beer garden.
If I baby my car, maybe I get 22
If I drive it hard (nomral), I get 20
Prius 3
Asked by Green Car Congress if the hybrid Camry’s introduction now paves the way for a redesign of the Prius with even more radical technologies, Hermance replied, “Absolutely.”
A quick look at hybrid vehicle technologies under consideration throughout the industry gives an indication of the potential improvements that Toyota might consider. Assuming that safety concerns can be satisfied, a lithium-ion battery pack is an obvious consideration; however, as some Green Car Congress readers have noted in the past, it’s possible that the battery pack could be combined with a smaller set of ultracapacitors to handle short bursts of acceleration.
Secondary battery pack charging systems, using either photovoltaic solar panels on the roof of the vehicle or a thermoelectric device to recapture some of the internal combustion engine’s waste heat, are also increasingly popular on the motor show circuit. Toyota themselves recently displayed a version of its Japan-only Estima hybrid minivan with a thermoelectric device built in to the vehicle’s engine exhaust system.
Given that flex-fuel vehicles seem to be gaining traction almost daily, the Prius is an obvious candidate for such treatment, as long as it does not interfere with the vehicle’s coveted California AT-PZEV certification. Finally, the Prius remains a heavier vehicle than most comparably-sized non-hybrid vehicles—and that’s a data point that Toyota is almost certainly anxious to reduce, as long as it can do so without significantly affecting the cost of the vehicle.
The Prius is scheduled for replacement in 2008, with the next generation to be sold as a 2009 model-year vehicle.
I am beginning to think that Bamacar was right in that you do seem to put the positive spin of a Toyota salesman on this lamentable situation of overpowered cars coming to market. In this era we should expect car companies to present us with viable choices for quelling our "addiction" to Middle East oil and not be encouraged to embrace Power Hybrids as you do.
I reported in msg #4335 about Driving Television's test, dubbed as the Hybrid Commuter Challenge, where two of the seven vehicles were a standard V6 Accord and a 4000lb Ford Escape. The winner was the car with the smallest engine ( WOW ! that's a surprise) the ubiquitous Prius. They are getting a note from me soon about ethics in TV journalism and their lack thereof.
But I was hoping someone would pick up on that error too. At the time your comment ran as follows.
"The vehicles followed one behind the other throughout,
exchanging drivers every hour or two. It was a good test of all at the same time.
Regardless of what the EPA numbers are, and you know the weak points of their testing, this drive and video is indicative of which performs best in varied ( combined driving )."
A "good test" should have included cars with lower capacity than 1.5L don't you think ? The HCH for example.
Your latest comment about the dual purpose flexibility of the HSD seems off the mark to me as well.
Camry buyers predilection for the 2.4L would tell me that this demographic would care less for 192HP. And as for Hernances comment that this Camry is not going up against the HAH. Duh! The HAH seems to be barely alive itself at this juncture. IMO in not dropping the Prius powertrain into the Camry, Toyota has blinked.
I respect your position but I think you're off base. Sales will tell. Let's wait and see.
T2
I am beginning to think that Bamacar was right in that you do seem to put the positive spin of a Toyota salesman on this lamentable situation of overpowered cars coming to market. In this era we should expect car companies to present us with viable choices for quelling our "addiction" to Middle East oil and not be encouraged to embrace Power Hybrids as you do.
Huh? '..embrace power hybrids'???
You'll have to run this one by me again. You are asking a Prius owner about justifying overpowered vehicles? Do you think that the Camry Hybrid? is lamentably overpowered? To which post are you referring?
A "good test" should have included cars with lower capacity than 1.5L don't you think ? The HCH for example
Yes and why the HCH wasnt included is not stated, so I have no idea. It doesnt make the test any less valid as a comparo. In today's world these vehicle are often what people drive.
Your latest comment about the dual purpose flexibility of the HSD seems off the mark to me as well.
Camry buyers predilection for the 2.4L would tell me that this demographic would care less for 192HP.
I've said several times over the past month or two in the Hybrid Camry forum and the 2007 Camry forum that the TCH is not likely to appeal to the present 4c Camry owner (with some exceptions). I have owned four 4c Camry's since 1989 with a lot of driving ( 30000-50000 mi annually ) in them. IMO this buyer ( me too ) is very very frugal. Kicking in some extra money for the TCH is not their style. I'm a prime example I do sell them but I moved out of a 4c ICE Camry to a Prius choosing not to pay the $4000 extra for the TCH over the Prius.
I agree whole heartedly with Hermance that the TCH isn't competeting with the HAH. The HAH and the HH I think are relative busts because they are linked to their respective V6's. I've probably stated this 20 times on these forums.
So I'll have to ask you what spin do you see me making? And to what exactly are you are taking exception? Do you feel that the TCH is going to fall flat? :surprise:
Or, if I read between the lines, you are 'wishing' that Toyota, Honda, et al would go the route of promoting more efficiency ( quelling our 'addiction' to Middle East oil )with even smaller vehicles such as the 1.5L Scions, Yaris, Fit, Versa, etc.
OK I am in full agreement with you on this too. I do drive a Prius . So again, what spin? I have an idea where you are going but I'll wait for your reply.
Peace.
I would guess that is his exact feeling. It is mine for sure. I have railed against hybrids since the HAH was announced. Toyota has built one hybrid for good mileage. The rest they push the hot rod aspect more than the saving fuel. At least Honda gave us two out of three that could be used in the HOV lanes. Which by the way, may be the number one reason people buy hybrids in CA & VA.
Toyota had the chance to have two hybrids in the high mileage arena and opted for the middle ground. Whether Prius owners like it or not the masses think it is UGLY. If they could have their favorite Camry that gets an HONEST 40-45 MPG average it would be a winner in my world. Still not enough to get it in the HOV lanes. Toyota should have shot for the 45 MPG combined EPA rating. That would still be 10 MPG behind the Prius. I don't think Toyota is in tune to the American hybrid market. They think we are all hot rodders. Altruism may be the only thing that sells this in betweener Camry hybrid. No logical or financial reason to buy one. Remember the bulk of the Camry buyers are happy with the 4 cylinder model.
Why spend $10K more for the hybrid over the very nice fully loaded XLE 2.4L for about $24k. Toyota offering $750 rebates on the 2006 Camry Make them an even better deal than the hybrid. Oh well!
83 MPG hybrid
the Hybrid Commuter Challenge, where two of the seven vehicles were a standard V6 Accord and a 4000lb Ford Escape. The winner was the car with the smallest engine (WOW ! that's a surprise) the ubiquitous Prius. They are getting a note from me soon about ethics in TV journalism and their lack thereof.
And some other faults are showing here. That test was run bumper to bumper and guess what, the V6 got killed! Yes, they had to drive one behind the other and what good was that V6 and 255 HP in the AH? 255 HP was an absolute waste. Honda doesn’t get it and now Toyota does not get it. The Camry w/ HSD is a remarkable automobile and I haven’t even driven one yet but it could have been even better with higher FE using an Atkinsonized 1.8 out of the Corolla. Sure she would have been knocked back to 0 - 60 in 10.5 + seconds but her FE would have been high enough to hit the HOV lanes! I have the feeling Toyota targeted the Accord I4 in the performance arena and then knock it out in the FE department w/ the TCH. In any case, people are standing in line to throw $25 - $30K at the 1.5L Prius’ which has a 0 - 60 time of 10.5 + seconds. A V6 is a total and absolute waste in the kinds of environments that all of us drive in each and every day In fact, except for crossing the Rockies at 110 + mph, the V6 is a total waste no matter where it is driven!
Martian, the Peugeot Diesels are an example of excellent engineering but they have this small problem with emissions. They cannot touch even the worst EPA spec here in the states so it’s a no go until they clean them up. Ford has access to the Peugeot diesels as well since they co-developed them and have a method of emission control to beat Tier II/Bin5 but it’s not cheap nor is it guaranteed to be EPA legal. Adding to it, Peugeot has stated their diesel hybrid is way too expensive for the average consumer to bare vs. the std. Diesel counterpart let alone the gas only versions
Today, the price gap between a Hybride HDi model and a comparable diesel HDi model is still too wide and would have to be halved to make diesel hybrid vehicles accessible to most consumers.
Backy, how are you proving many times that you received 25 - 40% higher then the EPA just by focusing on FE? High pressure tires are only good for ~ 1 - 2 mpg’s and drafting s only good when you can find the right situation. Interesting statement in either case
Gagrice, be careful as there are imperial gallons and then there are US gallons 69 mpg (US gallons) combined on the Euro cycles is still an @$$ kicker and would destroy anything we have available here in the US including the Insight and Prius II with the performance of an HCH-I w/ a CVT
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
That is what shut the Chrysler hybrid down in 1997. Too expensive. There seems to be a lot of people willing to pay a big premium for the hybrid technology. I still like the Smart Twofour as a vehicle to run most of my errands. They are everywhere in Victoria BC. You could probably get an easy 100 MPG from one of them.
I also agree that Toyota came so close to the perfect family sedan with the Camry hybrid.
Try 69 MPG
3.4 liters = 0.8997 Gallons
100 Kilometers = 62.15 Miles
62.15 miles divided by .8997 gallons = 69.1 MPG
Its only 83 MPG using the British Imperial gallon which is 1.201 US gallons.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not inherently only by higher taxation. And it is less expensive in most of the EU. The high price encourages the development of biodiesel. I work with a guy from SD says B20 is less than #2 diesel. That Citroen will not see the showrooms of America. We are too addicted to gasoline.
And biodiesel is only viable on a small scale.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That may be. Those that are using B100 are doing more to slow the flow of fossil fuel than any gas car including all the current hybrids. Not everyone is just talking a good story.
potato-chip maker that employs recycled fry oil to power a fleet of company cars. Kettle Foods (you know, the Kettle Chips brand with those bulletproof Mylar bags) operates a number of biodiesel-powered Volkswagen New Beetles to buzz around its hometown of Salem, Oregon. According to the company, it uses distilled sunflower and safflower oil, a blend it calls “Flower Power,” to save as much as 4.5 tons in CO2 emissions per vehicle every year.
Rather than risk the wrath of our patient Host by elaborating ad infinitum on this off-topic thread, I'll just quickly say I did it by measuring fuel economy with my car's trip computer over the same suburban course, on the same day; one direction was driving lead-footed, the other as I described originally. mpg in the first case was about 24 (I forgot the exact number), and the other way it was about 32. I also frequently compare the mpg of my driving to my lead-footed DW's. While not as exact, we tend to go the same places around town (with 3 kids you do that...). My mpg is consistently 25-40% higher than hers, under similar conditions.
I can easily get 25-40% better fuel economy simply by driving with a focus on fuel efficiency. No big "tricks" like drafting or super-inflated tires, just basic stuff like not speeding, being easy on the gas, and anticipating stops.
Oh, you receive 25 - 40% better then your wife and that consists of 32 mpg? Never mind, you are not speaking about EPA estimates and anybody could achieve that % above your wife in whatever car you drive without doing anything
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Just asking about what you really meant given there is a difference between higher FE then ones wife in the same automobile and 25 - 40% higher FE then the EPA estimates. I was not clear as to what you posted. One is very easy to achieve by the sounds of your wife’s driving habits. Mine too by the way. The other is far more difficult speaking from experience Berating and 1,000 mpg? Both were a stretch.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
As you clearly stated, you beat the wife’s easy estimates, not the hard ones To bad you didn’t post this information in the first place
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Who would have ever thought that we'd be seeing the Hybrids with 50 + MPG here in the good 'ol USA? FINALLY! The reason? The price of gas had gotten to a point where it started to build enough public interest, and enough people would actually buy the products.
The manufacturers need a large enough consumer market. The consumer market itself can be suddenly expanded by a political event or natural or unnatural disaster which could then make fuel extremely expensive and/or in short supply. In today's world, this is not that unlikely, and a major shift in the price/availability of fuel could result in a situation that demands these ULTRA efficient vehicles.
Then . . . with definative and sufficient motivating forces, you would increase the reality of having ULTRA efficient vehicles in this country.
TagMan