Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Hybrid Diesels?
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
To answer the question in your second paragraph, yes.
let me ask you a question, have you ever done any off-roading with a truck? When you get stuck in a mud pit, you switch your gear to 4-low. Why? And why do professional rock crawlers with supercharged big block engines in their jeeps build their vehicles with the lowest gearing possible?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Now, if you have twice as much power (at same rpm), why in the world would you want to keep the gearing short if your thrust requirement hasn’t changed? You could now use twice as tall gearing without affecting thrust but doubling your wheel speed! There goes the need for extra gears out the door.
And discussing off road driving in this context would be digressing from the point.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Thought this might be a good place for this info!
A study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Laboratory for Energy and the Environment found that even with aggressive research, fuel cell cars won't beat diesel hybrids on total energy use or greenhouse gas emissions by 2020.
It concluded that intense research on a diesel-engine hybrid could produce by 2020 a vehicle that is twice as efficient and half as polluting as fuel cell cars including the emissions and energy used to deliver the fuel and make the vehicle.
Paul
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=173&sid=173&a- - rticle=7654
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,65273,00.html
Q: What do you think of the possibility of developing diesel hybrids?
A: If you compare the cost of diesel and gasoline engines, diesel engines are more costly to
produce. The cost will increase in the future as cleaner diesels are developed. So a diesel hybrid would be very expensive. It would be technically feasible and viable for large commercial vehicles but not for passenger cars because of the cost.
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0410/24/c04-313133.htm
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
1.6-liter diesel engines from VW (1986):
52 HP @ 4800 rpm, 72 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm (normally aspirated)
68 HP @ 4500 rpm, 98 lb.-ft @ 2800 rpm (turbo charged)
Not sure how they compared in terms of fuel economy and emissions though. In this case, a 15-16 HP electric motor may make the normally aspirated engine only comparable to the turbo charged version in terms of output.
But, yes, the overall diesel engine is typically more expensive. I would guess this is mostly due to the robustness of it all. I mean, running something like 24:1 compression ratio (i'm pulling that number out of the air, but i believe i'm not too far off) calls for heavy duty parts. Add to that direct injection and some other relatively fancy technologies and you got yourself one expensive engine.
Now why this has anything to do with hybrid-diesel I don't know. I would tend to think that adding an electric assist to a diesel would tack on the same premium as adding one to a gas engine. Am I missing something?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
All the new diesel engines are far superior to the 1986 versions. I would suspect the reason they say it is too expensive to make diesel/hybrid is the gain is not enough to justify adding the hybrid mechanism. With a gas ICE it adds considerable mileage gain. The diesel is already far superior to the gas engine. The automakers would be ahead of the game to spend that extra money on particulate filters that will gain it access to the states that require the lower emissions. It is already a fact that a smaller sized diesel is equal to the mileage/performance of the existing hybrids. If the emissions can be brought in line the cars will sell for less than the hybrids. VW has just started producing a V6 TDI that meets all the latest European emission standards. It is for sale in the UK in the Touareg and Phaeton. It is a combined 30 mpg engine in vehicles over 2 tons. That is pretty significant IMO.
That is part of the problem the older diesels have given the modern diesel engines a bad rap. Several I can think of I would not have owned. Especially the early GM conversion diesel.
I just don't see the logic in adding all the hybrid equipment to an ICE that is efficient all by itself. Time will tell who is right on this subject. I doubt we have much say in the process.
Yup. Turbo Diesel also recirculate exhaust gas in order to achieve mpg near HSD hybrids. To meet legal emssion, Diesel need additional particle filter and "special" combustion technique. It sounds crazy but sometimes fuel is added into the exhaust to reduce emission. All those technology add cost as much as adding a hybrid option!
Furthermore, cleanest modern turbo LSD Diesel emission level isn't low enough to meet current US emission. The only possible way for diesel to exist on US road is to become diesel-electric hybrid. It is not surprising to me that BMW, Mercedes and Porsche are coming out with diesel hybrids. I like Porsche's approach. They are thinking about using 270hp Hybrid Synergy Drive that will be in Highlander Hybrid and RX400H. HSD lowers emission, increases power and fuel efficiency, all at the same time, unlike other assist hybrid types.
Dennis
They don't meet the standards set by CARB which four other states have adopted. They pass the US EPA regulations without a problem even with our lousy diesel in many areas.
"I like Porsche's approach. They are thinking about using 270hp Hybrid Synergy Drive that will be in Highlander Hybrid and RX400H."
That is a weblogger's dream. The Porsche Cayenne would give up almost 200 hp if it used the RX400h HSD. What would be the point of having a slow poke Cayenne? The Cayenne is 1500 lbs. heavier than the RX400h. Toyota has nothing in that League.
The new regulation is taking effect now but will not take ful effect until 2007 or 2009. I am not sure what they mean by the "full effect". The cleanest diesel from Europe does not meet current(soon to take full effect) US emission. In Europe, diesels are allowed to pollute more.
"The Porsche Cayenne would give up almost 200 hp if it used the RX400h HSD."
What? Cayenne 6-cyl makes 247hp. RX400H 6-cyl HSD produces 270hp. It is time to realize the power of HSD. ;-D
"The Cayenne is 1500 lbs. heavier than the RX400h."
6-cyl Cayenne weight: 4785 lbs
6-cyl RX330 weight: 3860 lbs
Difference: 925 lbs
"That is a weblogger's dream."
Read the news! http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8- - - - - - &q=porsche+hybrid
Dennis
As for the Porsche. I cannot imagine any die hard Porsche fan buying a Porsche with a Toyota engine. It is ludicrous and almost sinful. I was referring to the Cayenne V8 turbo which is the only reason to buy a Cayenne, Sheer performance...
If Porsche decided to go with 400H drivetrain, they might use their own engine to mate with Hybrid Synergy Drive; like Nissan Altima hybrid. Ultimate smooth shiftless instant power response that HSD offers is what Porsche buys would appreciate.
"I was referring to the Cayenne V8 turbo "
Well, V8 HSD is coming out on 2007 with Tundra hybrid as well as other performance HSD cars. Interesting you mentioned the turbo because there will be no turbo lag with HSD due to high torque at low RPM from the electric motors.
Dennis
I'm lost. Dennis, explain to me how this recirculation helps achieve higher mpg.
I'm lost. Dennis, explain to me how this recirculation helps achieve higher mpg.
I agree, it's emissions only. I have "adjusted" my TDI (temporarily of course) to by-pass the EGR system and there is no change in mpg. In fact, the EGR only operates under mainly just off-idle conditions mostly when driving in the city. I have mapped the EGR use with VAG software. Turning it off just increases emissions. It also reduces the sooty garbage that gets injected back into the motor and causes performance problems and also leads to DECREASED mpg. This is why folks that drive a lot of city miles with the TDI have clogged intake manifolds if they don't take precautions against these goofy emissions systems. Until low-sulphur diesel arrives, even these low-end emissions controls are problematic.
The main purpose of EGR is to lower NOx emission by reducing oxygen-to-nitrogen ratio. Since the exhuast gas is being recirculated, it is my impression that unburned fuel is also recycled.
Dennis
http://fleetowner.com/news/hino_hybrid_north_america_111104/
but with the electric assist it would get 10 second acceleration, and still get an amazing 90 miles per gallon of diesel.
___Not even close.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The stock 45 hp Lupo has ~15 second 0-60 acceleration, but with the electric assist it would get 10 second acceleration, and still get an amazing 90 miles per gallon of diesel.
Troy
Reference: http://www.supercars.net/cars/2001@$Toyota@$ES3%20Conceptx.html
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,65273,00.html
http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&am- p;sid=185
Our tax dollars sucked away by big corporations.
General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChrysler all came up with fuel-sipping diesel hybrids in the 1990s under the U.S. government-backed Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles, but never marketed them.
Notice they don't mention gas hybrids as being viable in the future. One of the reasons. The Accord hybrid produces over 50% more GHG than a VW TDI.
A study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Laboratory for Energy and the Environment found that even with aggressive research, fuel-cell cars won't beat diesel hybrids on total energy use or greenhouse gas emissions by 2020. It concluded that intense research on a diesel-engine hybrid could produce by 2020 a vehicle that is twice as efficient and half as polluting as fuel-cell cars including the emissions and energy used to deliver the fuel and make the vehicle.
Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions*
Worst Best
Accord Hybrid: 6.0 tons
Jetta Diesel: 5.1 tons
So it's actually only 15% more......:)
I stand corrected. The EPA site just got around to posting the HAH. I used the V6 Accord GHG rating which is 7.8 tons earlier this morning. So they did clean that V6 up with IMA. I wonder if that is dependent on it getting the mileage rating they are hoping for...
I would have to say OBVIOUSLY.
It isn't based on hope, but standard procedure adopted across the board regardless of the vehicle being gasoline, diesel, alternate fuel or hybrid driven.
The Honda Civic & Insight are much closer to the EPA rating. Maybe Toyota has friends in the EPA....
A full hybrid system goes beyond the two (ICE only and mild hybrid) because it has its own variances. Under some conditions, the vehicle drives in electric only mode, but that may change at some point during the “drive”. So, if the test procedure happens to pick up the first phase (more electric), you get exceptional fuel economy and low emissions. Reverse it and the results would be different.
So, real time results will vary considerably compared to EPA standards. I see more so with full hybrids than with mild hybrids than with conventional ICE. It all depends on the “drive”.
.
The EPA's city ratings are screwed up. They advertise 60 City for the Prius, but no one who live in the city actually achieves that. (And of course the skews the combined mpg too.)
When comparing hybrids, the only number that is accurate is the Highway number. Both Prius & civic owners are getting close to the EPA-advertised highway average.
troy
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0412/26/B01-41965.htm
"General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChyrsler each completed diesel- electric hybrid cars in early 2000 that could get 80 miles to the gallon, but have largely abandoned these projects because of the new air pollution rules. They are now struggling to catch up with Toyota and Honda in the production of hybrid vehicles that use electric power to improve the overall fuel efficiency of vehicles with gasoline engines."
Read the entire article here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/27/business/27DIES.html?ex=1105160- 400&en=dba07d56033beb7a&ei=5070&oref=login&ex=108- 6321600&en=79e288a1fbe7e8c8&ei=5070
QUESTION: Why do reporters post lies like this??? These 80 mpg cars were part of the Partership for Next Gen Vehicles (PNGV), and was killed by BUSH in 2000. They were killed by *politics* because the PNGV program shut down. Similar reason why the EV1 was killed.
.
In reality, both Ford & Chrysler/Dodge will be importing their clean Focus & Intrepid diesels from Europe to America in 2006-7. Diesels can & do pass emissions rules when run with sulfur-free fuel.
We wasted several billion dollars on that PNGV corporate welfare with nothing to show for it. We are getting our innovative, economical vehicles from Japan & Germany, without spending more on "Pork Barrel" politics.
___One hyphenated word made by one of the original PNGV manufacturers Meta-One ;-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Hybrid Diesel by GM. Very interesting! Will this possibly be a Saturn? Hopefully!
"The morning began with the Motor Press Guild Keynote address given this year by Bernd Pischetsrieder, Chairman of Volkswagen. Mr. Pischetsrieder’s started out by saying that in his opinion the hydrogen economy was not a realistic solution to air pollution concerns. He also stated that having multiple alternative fuels is not good because it is not feasible for drivers to have to hunt around for different fuel sources such as CNG, Ethanol or Bio-diesel.
He put forward the idea that we must look to existing infrastructure to provide the solution which he suggests will be the use of synthetic fuels made from Bio sources like soy beans, or by using the gas normally burned off from oil wells in a gas to liquid fuel process.
He proposed diesel engines running on these synthetic fuels as the solution to CO2 reduction. Currently VW diesel engines don’t meet the strict California emissions standards but VW is committed to meeting the strict new standards taking effect in 2007.
Mr. Pischetsrieder also said that VW are working on a Diesel Hybrid but didn’t give any timeframe for when this might be available to the public. He also said that they were working on an engine that behaved like a diesel at low revs and like a gas engine at higher revs, combining the best qualities of the diesel and the gas engine."
The whole story is here:
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=796
Nice announcement but no time frame? Dont hold your breath too long!!