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Hybrid Diesels?

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Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    I'm not sure I'm following most of your first paragraph there, but to answer your question about keeping the same gearing - as I've done many times already - its not a matter of a lack of power but a matter of a lack of drivetrain durability and road traction that will prevent you from moving that heavy load any faster off the line.

    To answer the question in your second paragraph, yes.

    let me ask you a question, have you ever done any off-roading with a truck? When you get stuck in a mud pit, you switch your gear to 4-low. Why? And why do professional rock crawlers with supercharged big block engines in their jeeps build their vehicles with the lowest gearing possible?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Forget about durability and traction for a moment and focus on impact of power/torques and its use via a transmission. Well, you have agreed to the point that HP does in fact relate thrust (handles traction issue) to vehicle speed.

    Now, if you have twice as much power (at same rpm), why in the world would you want to keep the gearing short if your thrust requirement hasn’t changed? You could now use twice as tall gearing without affecting thrust but doubling your wheel speed! There goes the need for extra gears out the door.

    And discussing off road driving in this context would be digressing from the point.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    oh, well, if we're throwing all reality out the window and just looking at numbers, your point is totally correct. Then again, if traction, drivetrain, and weight have no bearing, you could just start in 18th gear in a rig and not have to shift at all. problem solved.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Well you could start the big rid in 18th, if you have enough horses. After all, the big rigs like diesel locomotives don’t employ 20 speed transmission. And thats the reality.
  • f111df111d Member Posts: 114
    Unfortunatley you have to be registered to read (http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=10132)
    Thought this might be a good place for this info!

    A study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Laboratory for Energy and the Environment found that even with aggressive research, fuel cell cars won't beat diesel hybrids on total energy use or greenhouse gas emissions by 2020.

    It concluded that intense research on a diesel-engine hybrid could produce by 2020 a vehicle that is twice as efficient and half as polluting as fuel cell cars including the emissions and energy used to deliver the fuel and make the vehicle.
    Paul
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    You VW / diesel fans must be tickled pink - snip - The Car Connection Daily Edition: Oct. 14, 2004 says " VW Does a 180 on Hybrids - A diesel-electric hybrid prototype may be a hint of what's to come from Volkswagen AG."

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=173&sid=173&a- - rticle=7654
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Or should I say happy as a clam at high tide


    http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,65273,00.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'll be even happier when the vehicles hit our shores. Keep the articles coming. One of these days someone will bring a small diesel or diesel hybrid PU that will get me to part with some of my money. Otherwise nothing on the market excites me to the point of opening my wallet.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Toyota's head of R&D says "a diesel hybrid would be very expensive" - snip -

    Q: What do you think of the possibility of developing diesel hybrids?


    A: If you compare the cost of diesel and gasoline engines, diesel engines are more costly to
    produce. The cost will increase in the future as cleaner diesels are developed. So a diesel hybrid would be very expensive. It would be technically feasible and viable for large commercial vehicles but not for passenger cars because of the cost.
    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0410/24/c04-313133.htm
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm not surprised. Don't diesel require a turbo charger on top of a "regular" engine? Things like that, including weight issues (and trying to bring them down) can also add to the cost.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466
    Hmmm, that's an interesting question. Diesels don't 'require' a turbocharger, lots of diesels haven't had them (including my '81 Rabbit diesel, which was a good example of why you would want one). I think most diesels have them now. But I wonder if one would be needed in a hybrid application. Any thoughts?

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It should be possible. However, non-turbo diesel will have lower power output.
    1.6-liter diesel engines from VW (1986):
    52 HP @ 4800 rpm, 72 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm (normally aspirated)
    68 HP @ 4500 rpm, 98 lb.-ft @ 2800 rpm (turbo charged)

    Not sure how they compared in terms of fuel economy and emissions though. In this case, a 15-16 HP electric motor may make the normally aspirated engine only comparable to the turbo charged version in terms of output.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    turbo really isn't that big a part of the cost, though. There are plenty of turbocharged cars out there and manufacturers aren't complaining about the costs on those.

    But, yes, the overall diesel engine is typically more expensive. I would guess this is mostly due to the robustness of it all. I mean, running something like 24:1 compression ratio (i'm pulling that number out of the air, but i believe i'm not too far off) calls for heavy duty parts. Add to that direct injection and some other relatively fancy technologies and you got yourself one expensive engine.

    Now why this has anything to do with hybrid-diesel I don't know. I would tend to think that adding an electric assist to a diesel would tack on the same premium as adding one to a gas engine. Am I missing something?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    1.6-liter diesel engines from VW (1986):

    All the new diesel engines are far superior to the 1986 versions. I would suspect the reason they say it is too expensive to make diesel/hybrid is the gain is not enough to justify adding the hybrid mechanism. With a gas ICE it adds considerable mileage gain. The diesel is already far superior to the gas engine. The automakers would be ahead of the game to spend that extra money on particulate filters that will gain it access to the states that require the lower emissions. It is already a fact that a smaller sized diesel is equal to the mileage/performance of the existing hybrids. If the emissions can be brought in line the cars will sell for less than the hybrids. VW has just started producing a V6 TDI that meets all the latest European emission standards. It is for sale in the UK in the Touareg and Phaeton. It is a combined 30 mpg engine in vehicles over 2 tons. That is pretty significant IMO.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    That was supposed to be an example to illustrate difference between turbo versus non-turbo diesel engines, and from the same era (happens to be from the same year).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the turbo is required to get the efficiency that the current crop of diesels possess. Maybe not in big diesels, I really don't know. All the modern car diesels in Europe are turbo diesels as close as I can tell from my research.

    That is part of the problem the older diesels have given the modern diesel engines a bad rap. Several I can think of I would not have owned. Especially the early GM conversion diesel.

    I just don't see the logic in adding all the hybrid equipment to an ICE that is efficient all by itself. Time will tell who is right on this subject. I doubt we have much say in the process.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Yes time will tell but if we were to speculate (okay a hybrid Durango hasn't seen the light of day) on where the hybrid market will be in 12 months it would go something like this: current hybrids (as of now) about half a dozen with that many more on the way, clean high mileage diesels zero, diesel hybrids zero, hope we're not putting all our eggs in one basket ...
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I think the turbo is required to get the efficiency that the current crop of diesels possess"

    Yup. Turbo Diesel also recirculate exhaust gas in order to achieve mpg near HSD hybrids. To meet legal emssion, Diesel need additional particle filter and "special" combustion technique. It sounds crazy but sometimes fuel is added into the exhaust to reduce emission. All those technology add cost as much as adding a hybrid option!

    Furthermore, cleanest modern turbo LSD Diesel emission level isn't low enough to meet current US emission. The only possible way for diesel to exist on US road is to become diesel-electric hybrid. It is not surprising to me that BMW, Mercedes and Porsche are coming out with diesel hybrids. I like Porsche's approach. They are thinking about using 270hp Hybrid Synergy Drive that will be in Highlander Hybrid and RX400H. HSD lowers emission, increases power and fuel efficiency, all at the same time, unlike other assist hybrid types.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "Furthermore, cleanest modern turbo LSD Diesel emission level isn't low enough to meet current US emission."

    They don't meet the standards set by CARB which four other states have adopted. They pass the US EPA regulations without a problem even with our lousy diesel in many areas.

    "I like Porsche's approach. They are thinking about using 270hp Hybrid Synergy Drive that will be in Highlander Hybrid and RX400H."

    That is a weblogger's dream. The Porsche Cayenne would give up almost 200 hp if it used the RX400h HSD. What would be the point of having a slow poke Cayenne? The Cayenne is 1500 lbs. heavier than the RX400h. Toyota has nothing in that League.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "They pass the US EPA regulations without a problem even with our lousy diesel in many areas."

    The new regulation is taking effect now but will not take ful effect until 2007 or 2009. I am not sure what they mean by the "full effect". The cleanest diesel from Europe does not meet current(soon to take full effect) US emission. In Europe, diesels are allowed to pollute more.

    "The Porsche Cayenne would give up almost 200 hp if it used the RX400h HSD."

    What? Cayenne 6-cyl makes 247hp. RX400H 6-cyl HSD produces 270hp. It is time to realize the power of HSD. ;-D

    "The Cayenne is 1500 lbs. heavier than the RX400h."

    6-cyl Cayenne weight: 4785 lbs
    6-cyl RX330 weight: 3860 lbs
    Difference: 925 lbs

    "That is a weblogger's dream."

    Read the news! http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8- - - - - - &q=porsche+hybrid

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    MB E320 CDI and the VW TDI cars sell as fast as they get them off the boat. Mercedes sold more of the E320 CDI vehicles than they had expected. They all meet the 45 states emissions standards or they would not be allowed in the country.

    As for the Porsche. I cannot imagine any die hard Porsche fan buying a Porsche with a Toyota engine. It is ludicrous and almost sinful. I was referring to the Cayenne V8 turbo which is the only reason to buy a Cayenne, Sheer performance...
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I cannot imagine any die hard Porsche fan buying a Porsche with a Toyota engine."

    If Porsche decided to go with 400H drivetrain, they might use their own engine to mate with Hybrid Synergy Drive; like Nissan Altima hybrid. Ultimate smooth shiftless instant power response that HSD offers is what Porsche buys would appreciate.

    "I was referring to the Cayenne V8 turbo "

    Well, V8 HSD is coming out on 2007 with Tundra hybrid as well as other performance HSD cars. Interesting you mentioned the turbo because there will be no turbo lag with HSD due to high torque at low RPM from the electric motors.

    Dennis
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Turbo Diesel also recirculate exhaust gas in order to achieve mpg near HSD hybrids.

    I'm lost. Dennis, explain to me how this recirculation helps achieve higher mpg.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Turbo Diesel also recirculate exhaust gas in order to achieve mpg near HSD hybrids.

    I'm lost. Dennis, explain to me how this recirculation helps achieve higher mpg.


    I agree, it's emissions only. I have "adjusted" my TDI (temporarily of course) to by-pass the EGR system and there is no change in mpg. In fact, the EGR only operates under mainly just off-idle conditions mostly when driving in the city. I have mapped the EGR use with VAG software. Turning it off just increases emissions. It also reduces the sooty garbage that gets injected back into the motor and causes performance problems and also leads to DECREASED mpg. This is why folks that drive a lot of city miles with the TDI have clogged intake manifolds if they don't take precautions against these goofy emissions systems. Until low-sulphur diesel arrives, even these low-end emissions controls are problematic.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I'm lost. Dennis, explain to me how this recirculation helps achieve higher mpg."

    The main purpose of EGR is to lower NOx emission by reducing oxygen-to-nitrogen ratio. Since the exhuast gas is being recirculated, it is my impression that unburned fuel is also recycled.

    Dennis
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Recycled to burn again? No.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Diesel/electric hybrids in truck - snip - Hino hybrid Truck Coming to North America - Class 4 truck uses same NiMH battery pack as Toyota Prius, easing replacement concerns.

    http://fleetowner.com/news/hino_hybrid_north_america_111104/
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi ElectricTroy:

    … but with the electric assist it would get 10 second acceleration, and still get an amazing 90 miles per gallon of diesel.

    ___Not even close.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I'd like to see a 90 mpg VW Lupo married with a Civic Hybrid battery.

    The stock 45 hp Lupo has ~15 second 0-60 acceleration, but with the electric assist it would get 10 second acceleration, and still get an amazing 90 miles per gallon of diesel.

    Troy
  • transpowertranspower Member Posts: 213
    Whatever happened to the Toyota ES3? This was a concept car seen at many auto shows in 2001. It has a turbo-charged Diesel engine, CVT, and electric motor/batteries charged by regenerative braking.

    Reference: http://www.supercars.net/cars/2001@$Toyota@$ES3%20Conceptx.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Demand for both hybrid and diesel vehicles has outstripped supply during the last year. Toyota will double the number of Prius hybrids it manufactures for the U.S. market in 2005 to meet demand, and based on the success of the Civic Hybrid, Honda will begin selling the Accord Hybrid in December. Mercedes-Benz recently increased production of its E320 CDI diesel sedan for the U.S. market to meet demand.

    http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,65273,00.html
  • transpowertranspower Member Posts: 213
    OK, so no word on the Toyota ES3. What about the Jeep Commander concept vehicle, which is a hybrid fuel cell/battery vehicle with an electric motor at each wheel?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Another Hybrid diesel problem: one truck that was a Hybrid diesel costs $10K more than a comparable diesel:

     

    http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&am- p;sid=185
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Another interesting article:

     

    Our tax dollars sucked away by big corporations.

     

    General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChrysler all came up with fuel-sipping diesel hybrids in the 1990s under the U.S. government-backed Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles, but never marketed them.

     

    Notice they don't mention gas hybrids as being viable in the future. One of the reasons. The Accord hybrid produces over 50% more GHG than a VW TDI.

     

    A study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Laboratory for Energy and the Environment found that even with aggressive research, fuel-cell cars won't beat diesel hybrids on total energy use or greenhouse gas emissions by 2020. It concluded that intense research on a diesel-engine hybrid could produce by 2020 a vehicle that is twice as efficient and half as polluting as fuel-cell cars including the emissions and energy used to deliver the fuel and make the vehicle.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"One of the reasons. The Accord hybrid produces over 50% more GHG than a VW TDI."-end quote

     

    Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions*

     Worst Best

     

    Accord Hybrid: 6.0 tons

    Jetta Diesel: 5.1 tons

     

    So it's actually only 15% more......:)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So it's actually only 15% more......:)

     

    I stand corrected. The EPA site just got around to posting the HAH. I used the V6 Accord GHG rating which is 7.8 tons earlier this morning. So they did clean that V6 up with IMA. I wonder if that is dependent on it getting the mileage rating they are hoping for...
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    I wonder if that is dependent on it getting the mileage rating they are hoping for

     

    I would have to say OBVIOUSLY.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I wonder if that is dependent on it getting the mileage rating they are hoping for...

     

    It isn't based on hope, but standard procedure adopted across the board regardless of the vehicle being gasoline, diesel, alternate fuel or hybrid driven.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For some unknown reason the EPA has not been real close on some of the hybrids notably the Prius II. Were they overly optimistic for political reasons? It looks like they are averaging across the board 49 combined MPG. Only about 10% of those reporting are averaging the EPA 55 mpg combined rating. I would not consider that a good estimate on the part of a rating institute. What they should put on the window sticker is 90% of drivers will not get this high mileage.

     

    The Honda Civic & Insight are much closer to the EPA rating. Maybe Toyota has friends in the EPA....
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    EPA standards are just that, standards. They lack flexibility, and cannot be expected to. In case of traditional ICE vehicles, there are plenty of variables that add to the variations when compared in real life. Throw in a mild hybrid system, and you add a little more. Besides all the ICE related complexities in creating a “solid” standard, mild hybrids would produce different results if the “drive” happens to rely too much on ICE or quite a bit on the hybrid system (too many stop lights, where a typical ICE would get you 0 mpg, a hybrid may not be burning any).

     

    A full hybrid system goes beyond the two (ICE only and mild hybrid) because it has its own variances. Under some conditions, the vehicle drives in electric only mode, but that may change at some point during the “drive”. So, if the test procedure happens to pick up the first phase (more electric), you get exceptional fuel economy and low emissions. Reverse it and the results would be different.

     

    So, real time results will vary considerably compared to EPA standards. I see more so with full hybrids than with mild hybrids than with conventional ICE. It all depends on the “drive”.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "Was the EPA they overly optimistic for political reasons? It looks like they are averaging across the board 49 combined MPG. Only about 10% of those reporting are averaging the EPA 55 mpg combined "

     

    .

     

    The EPA's city ratings are screwed up. They advertise 60 City for the Prius, but no one who live in the city actually achieves that. (And of course the skews the combined mpg too.)

     

    When comparing hybrids, the only number that is accurate is the Highway number. Both Prius & civic owners are getting close to the EPA-advertised highway average.

     

    troy
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Ford concept pairs electric, diesel - Mercury's Meta One vehicle features a low-emission, turbo-charged V-6. The Meta One's powertrain combines a fuel-saving electric motor with a twin-turbocharged V-6 diesel engine. The pairing has one big benefit: lower emission levels.

     

    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0412/26/B01-41965.htm
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I was not aware of this fact:

     

    "General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChyrsler each completed diesel- electric hybrid cars in early 2000 that could get 80 miles to the gallon, but have largely abandoned these projects because of the new air pollution rules. They are now struggling to catch up with Toyota and Honda in the production of hybrid vehicles that use electric power to improve the overall fuel efficiency of vehicles with gasoline engines."

     

    Read the entire article here:

     

    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/27/business/27DIES.html?ex=1105160- 400&en=dba07d56033beb7a&ei=5070&oref=login&ex=108- 6321600&en=79e288a1fbe7e8c8&ei=5070
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "but have largely abandoned these diesel- electric projects because of the new air pollution rules."

     

    QUESTION: Why do reporters post lies like this??? These 80 mpg cars were part of the Partership for Next Gen Vehicles (PNGV), and was killed by BUSH in 2000. They were killed by *politics* because the PNGV program shut down. Similar reason why the EV1 was killed.

     

    .

     

    In reality, both Ford & Chrysler/Dodge will be importing their clean Focus & Intrepid diesels from Europe to America in 2006-7. Diesels can & do pass emissions rules when run with sulfur-free fuel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They were killed by *politics* because the PNGV program shut down. Similar reason why the EV1 was killed.

     

    We wasted several billion dollars on that PNGV corporate welfare with nothing to show for it. We are getting our innovative, economical vehicles from Japan & Germany, without spending more on "Pork Barrel" politics.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Gagrice:

     

    ___One hyphenated word made by one of the original PNGV manufacturers … Meta-One ;-)

     

    ___Good Luck

     

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000597026670/

     

    Hybrid Diesel by GM. Very interesting! Will this possibly be a Saturn? Hopefully!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The last paragraph of this little clip is the MOST interesting....

     

    "The morning began with the Motor Press Guild Keynote address given this year by Bernd Pischetsrieder, Chairman of Volkswagen. Mr. Pischetsrieder’s started out by saying that in his opinion the hydrogen economy was not a realistic solution to air pollution concerns. He also stated that having multiple alternative fuels is not good because it is not feasible for drivers to have to hunt around for different fuel sources such as CNG, Ethanol or Bio-diesel.

     

    He put forward the idea that we must look to existing infrastructure to provide the solution which he suggests will be the use of synthetic fuels made from Bio sources like soy beans, or by using the gas normally burned off from oil wells in a gas to liquid fuel process.

     

    He proposed diesel engines running on these synthetic fuels as the solution to CO2 reduction. Currently VW diesel engines don’t meet the strict California emissions standards but VW is committed to meeting the strict new standards taking effect in 2007.

     

    Mr. Pischetsrieder also said that VW are working on a Diesel Hybrid but didn’t give any timeframe for when this might be available to the public. He also said that they were working on an engine that behaved like a diesel at low revs and like a gas engine at higher revs, combining the best qualities of the diesel and the gas engine."

     

    The whole story is here:

     

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=796
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "that VW are working on a Diesel Hybrid but didn’t give any timeframe"

     

    Nice announcement but no time frame? Dont hold your breath too long!!
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