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Hybrid Diesels?

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    " That said, some carmakers have begun to equip their cars with particulate filters, notably PSA Peugeot Citroen. Together with two British firms, Ricardo and QinetiQ, the company is building a diesel-hybrid based on the family-sized Citroen Berlingo. The aim is to achieve a combined fuel economy of 70 miles per gallon with carbon-dioxide emissions of only 90 grams per kilometre. (In comparison, the Prius delivers 55 miles per gallon with carbon-dioxide emissions of 104 grams per kilometre.)"

     

    entire article here:

     

    http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&- amp;sid=277
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    VW is a strange company.

     

    - on one hand they are producing a 2007 diesel car capable of 120 miles per gallon + a hybrid prototype

     

    - on the other hand, they are trying to build 200 hp diesel engines for more power (and therefore more fuel burned) for their Jettas

     

    They are both economizing & splurging at the same time. (puzzled look)

     

    troy
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The V10 Diesel Tourareg: A contradiction--Big fuel consumption with diesel to economize!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "Citroen Berlingo. The aim is to achieve a combined fuel economy of 70 miles per gallon with carbon-dioxide emissions of only 90 grams per kilometre. (In comparison, the Prius delivers 55 miles per gallon with carbon-dioxide emissions of 104 grams per kilometre"

     

    Yeah this sounds impressive too! I just wish the Europeans were not such late learners, unlike Toyota and Honda. Oh well only time will tell if these European endeaveors will provide a serious challenge to the Japanese.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The V10 Diesel Tourareg: A contradiction--Big fuel consumption with diesel to economize!

     

    I think that package was built for one reason to win some cross country races. I believe they got a 3rd & 5th place in the Dakar race ended last week. That car will give the Porsche Cayenne V8 turbo a run for the money.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    The V10 Diesel Touareg: A contradiction--Big fuel consumption with diesel to economize!

     

    I dunno, what I see is better performance and better fuel economy. Could apply to most any vehicle. And higher power engines don't necessarily mean higher fuel consumption. I've added about 25hp to my TDI and have no decrease in consumption. Many of the new diesels coming to market (the '03 HO Cummins vs '02 HO Cummins) give more power and better fuel economy.

     

    When you can burn the fuel more efficiently, you gain both performance and economy.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "I just wish the Europeans were not such late learners, unlike Toyota and Honda."

     

    .

     

    You have it backwards. It was the Europeans who were first to market a 3 liter/100km (80mpg) car in 2000. And Europeans who will sell a 2 liter/100km (120mpg) car in 2007. Neither Toyota nor Honda have an equivalent.

     

    It's the Europeans who are ahead in fuel economy.

    troy
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "It's the Europeans who are ahead in fuel economy"

     

    Fuel effient cars in Europe these past few decades are an easy sell because of the high gas prices. Here in Toronto Canada, I have a SMART dealership not far from where I live.

     

    Problem with those European vehicleswith high mileage is the lack of space and utility for drivers/passengers. It still is a TOUGH SELL in North America.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Mercedes S-Class hybrid diesel details:

     

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/01/mercedes_sclass.html
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    My point was not that.

     

    My point was to refute the false statement, "Europeans are behind the Japanese in fuel economy." That's not true.

     

    Europeans are AHEAD. Europeans already have an 80 mpg car with a 120 mpg car scheduled for 2007.

     

    troy
  • stevewastevewa Member Posts: 203
    Of course there's more to the equation than just MPG. Car building is an art of compromises.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I don't know of any Euro MiniVan which achieves the 44 MPG that the Toyota Estima Gas/Hybrid minivan achieves in Japan.

     

    Does anyone know of a Hybrid Diesel minivan currently on the road anywhere in the world?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Once "clean diesel" is completely entrenched in the USA distribution system, and costs for Hybrid systems in general come DOWN, then someone (Toyota or Honda I would hope) could probably sell a $25K Diesel Hybrid 4-dr family sedan that gets more than 60 MPG EPA, city/hwy combined.

     

    That might be 5-8 years away, but if that happens, it will certainly have an impact and will probably hasten the demise of "lower efficiency gas hybrids" in the USA.

     

    But it will ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE that diesel is indeed as "clean" as the diesel proponents seem to think it will be, and all those states banning diesel vehicles will have to get off that policy.

     

    And that the company selling it is not VW (low reliability) or Mercedes (too expensive) will be another key factor in the success of such a vehicle.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    By eliminating the VW and Mercedes you are taking two of the premiere diesel engine builders in the world out of the equation. Honda & Toyota still have a long way to go to compete with the two aforementioned companies in handling, safety & braking. To me and many others those are bigger issues than perceived reliability. I say perceived because only one of the 8 new Japanese vehicles I have owned was reliable. You can give all the statistics you want. It does not change my perception of Japanese vs US & German made vehicles.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It is not about what you or I perceive, it is about dealing with the facts of the market. VW is deemed unreliable and MB overly expensive. That’s a fact.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is not about what you or I perceive, it is about dealing with the facts of the market. VW is deemed unreliable and MB overly expensive. That’s a fact.

     

    Those are your opinions not based on legitimate studies. Opinions are good, though many times flawed. If you want to get a good idea on the reliability of the vehicles in question look at the Edmund's threads on the different vehicles. I think you will find just as many if not more problems with the Honda cars as the VW cars. As far as MB over priced. They are not as overpriced as Honda. You can look at Honda's net profit and see they are overcharging for their cars.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"It is not about what you or I perceive, it is about dealing with the facts of the market. VW is deemed unreliable and MB overly expensive. That’s a fact. Those are your opinions not based on legitimate studies.-"end quote

     

    Show me one sampling of thousands of owners which indicates VW is as reliable as Honda.

     

    Show me one sampling of ANYONE ANYWHERE that thinks Mercedes are not expensive cars.

     

    Gary, VW being less reliable than Honda is not an OPINION, it is a FACT based on input from MILLIONS of owners over the last 20 years who have been studied and reported by ALL the major companies who track and accumulate that sort of information for a living.

     

    And Mercedes not being overly expensive? You can honestly say you think that is just an OPINION ???
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Show me one sampling of thousands of owners which indicates VW is as reliable as Honda.

     

    Yet VW has many advantages that combine for a rewarding driving experience. Honda? Sorry, after my last two Accords ('01 and '02) I have no plans to own any more due to problems, and worse yet, poor customer support. Who would have guessed this from Honda?

     

    m9431, "Volkswagen Passat" #7089, 5 May 2004 3:50 pm

     

    I have owned 5 Accord sedans before buying this Passat. Only one of the 5 was troublefree (problems with trannys, suspension cv boots).

     

    profvh, "Volkswagen Passat" #7181, 16 Jun 2004 9:13 am

     

    We currently have a 2003 Accord as well and to me Volkswagen does a much better job on the paint and (I can't believe I'm saying this) fit and finish as well.

     

    spur11, "Volkswagen Passat" #6600, 27 Oct 2003 11:43 am

     

    taft4, "Volkswagen Passat" #7416, 3 Nov 2004 9:30 pm!keywords=allin%3Amsgtext%20limit%3A.ee9e7d3%20accord

     

    bonfig, "Volkswagen Passat" #7509, 16 Dec 2004 1:44 pm

     

    altair4, "Volkswagen Passat" #7570, 10 Jan 2005 4:17 pm

     

    fish8, "Volkswagen Passat" #7510, 17 Dec 2004 7:42 am

     

    sross, "Volkswagen Passat" #7034, 24 Apr 2004 9:06 am

     

    ivan_99, "Volkswagen Passat" #6929, 12 Mar 2004 2:15 am

     

    profvh, "Volkswagen Passat" #6795, 16 Dec 2003 9:37 pm!keywords=allin%3Amsgtext%20limit%3A.ee9e7d3%20accord

     

    I've recently been thinking that I should have gone with a Passat over my 03 Accord. My 03 Accord with 16K on it has had:

    various rattles

    drivers door which needed adjustment

    water stains in the headliner

    check engine light went on

    speedometer stopped working

    car idled low which would shut off AC

    rotors needed resurfacing (vibrations)

     

    ivan_99, "Volkswagen Passat" #6102, 13 Jul 2003 12:36 am

     

    There are literally hundreds of examples of people fed up with the hype about Honda reliability vs VW. It is not true.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Those are your opinions not based on legitimate studies. Opinions are good, though many times flawed.

     

    You’re correct on the second statement but avoid assumptions as you just did in the first. How do you conclude what my opinion is based on? How about a reality check? I consider VW Passat and went with my first Honda purchase in Fall 1997. Seven years down the road, Consumer Reports has a few things to tell us. I don’t know about you, but I believe it to be a legitimate study. Here is how the two cars stack up for 1998 models that I considered (and own one of them now with 113K miles behind it)…

     

    1998 Passat

    Poor: Engine, Electrical, Suspension, Power Equipment, Body Hardware

    Fair: Fuel, Ignition, Brakes, Body Integrity

    Good: Cooling

    Very Good: Transmission, A/C, Paint/Trim/Rust

    Excellent: Exhaust

    Reliability Verdict: NO!

     

    1998 Accord

    Poor: None

    Fair: None

    Good: A/C, Exhaust, Power Equipment

    Very Good: Engine, Cooling, Electrical, Brakes, Paint/Trim/Rust, Body Integrity, Body Hardware

    Excellent: Fuel, Ignition, Transmission, Suspension

    Reliability Verdict: YES!

     

    That’s reality, not a bias filled assumption.

     

    As for overpricing or not, profitability isn’t an indicator of it. The latter is tied to being a smarter company. If I considered Hondas to be overpriced, I wouldn’t be driving two today.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Looks like we are off in a reliability discussion and not Hybrid Diesels. I'lll dig up the link to the most reliable brand discussions and post back here with it.

     

    Thanks!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    You want a marriage made in heaven? Build this car:

     

    4-door family sedan, available in two or three trims (i.e. DX, LX, EX) and make sure a MANUAL TRANNY is an option

    130-160 HP "truly clean" common rail diesel engine

    NiMH battery system, full hybrid, capable of doing 50 miles on electric power alone.

    Priced in the $25K range, $28K for a loaded one.

    EPA combined MPG of GREATER THAN 60 MPG and REALLY be able to achieve it, no driving tricks

     

    That car would sell like wildfire....Quantity would make up the R&D costs in a couple of years.

     

    I bet a smart, established company like Toyota could sell 150,000 of these a year.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I bet a smart, established company like Toyota could sell 150,000 of these a year.

     

    I don't think the Japanese are doing so well with "clean Diesel" the Honda i-CDTI is all they got. Ford, DCC, VW & BMW are way out in front on clean diesels. Toyota has lived on it's laurels with the exception of the Prius. They don't really have a lot to show for the future. Only time will tell if they made the right gamble with HSD.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don't think the Japanese are doing so well with "clean Diesel"

     

    Thats primarily because diesel is nowhere a priority in Japanese market. It is all about gasoline over there.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"Only time will tell if they made the right gamble with HSD."-end quote

     

    They've got a couple of billion bucks cash in the bank - they can afford to gamble.. :)

     

    "Toyota posted net income of more than $11 billion in the year ended March 31, 2004."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They've got a couple of billion bucks cash in the bank - they can afford to gamble.. :)

     

    If the hybrids make money the CEO keeps his job. If not he is looking for another company. And Toyota has a big job catching up to the other automakers that are not playing all their chips on one platform. Honda is playing the game much wiser from my perspective. They are building a big factory to manufacture the i-CDTI to gain market share in the EU.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    EU isn’t the biggest market and not 100% of the vehicle sold in that market is diesel, but 35-40%. It would be lame to be unidirectional and live in the present.

     

    That’s where investing into R&D comes into play. For companies like Honda and Toyota, it is about investing in the future than to live in the laurels of the present (or past). They know there is more out there, and to get there, it makes sense to explore. It may be a gamble, but you don’t win if you don’t play. However, how much you gamble holds the key to the future. And that, would be another area of discussion.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Isn't the EU population = 450 million? That would make it the largest *car-buying* market.

     

    (China is the largest market, but they are too poor to buy cars. That leaves the EU.)
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Markets:

    There are more cars built in Germany than in the US.

    Largest car plant in the world is not in Detroit, its in Wolfsburg. VW-group sells more cars in China than they do in USA and has largest market share in China.

     

    Research:

    VW (actually Audi) pioneered modern clean diesel technology over 10 years ago.

    Mercedes invented most of the safety features found in a Volvo or Lexus.

     

    Business:

    Toyota has > US$40 billion in the bank ... enough that they might be able to purchase GM & VW (America and Europe's largest manufacturers) ... if they ever wanted to.

     

    Don't expect Toyota to develop anything earth-shattering (although Prius drivetrain is very impressive) ... but once the Germans figure out how to make it work, expect Toyota to deploy it ASAP and figure out how to make it profitable!

     

    Its just a difference in priorities: do you want to make the most efficient or safest cars for your customers, or do you want to make the most profit off customers for your shareholders?

    3 valid approaches to the car business based on different goals and values.

     

    Personally, I'll drive a VW or Benz TD, but buy shares in Toyota :)
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "VW-group sells more cars in China than they do in USA and has largest market share in China."

    =============================================

     

    .

     

    "Just the facts ma'am." What are the numbers for China vs. U.S. vs. EU sales.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Looking for China vs. US (lost bookmarks when Hard-drive died)....

     

    But for country production (2002 is latest I can find) US & Germany are really close:

     

    US produced 5.0 million out of NAFTA countries 7.3 million (9.0 million for North & South america combined).

    Whereas Germany produced 5.1 million out of the European Union's 14.8 million.

    Europe's total production was 17.3 million.

     

    from http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/statistics/production/world#cars
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    According the KPMG's Hong Kong office:

    "sales of saloons (covering small and medium sized passenger cars) during the first half of 2004 were up 32 per cent; an impressive growth rate but still well down on the 70 percent of 2003. Actual unit sales in those six months were 1.1 million – matching the total sales figure from 2002. Those six months realised a profit of US$5.36 billion, representing an increase of 14 per cent on the same period last year. However, this still represents a significant slow-down from 2003's own growth rate and is indicative of the manufacturers' shrinking profit margins."

     

    But here's the klincher for the Chinese market:

    "While profit margins are being eaten into, they are still healthy at 20-30 per cent, compared to a global average of five per cent."

     

    Which means that VW's profits could be LESS if they increase US sales unless they also increased world-wide production, because they don't want to steal potential sales volume from China (where profits are 4x to 6x for the same vehicle).
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I asked for SALES numbers. i.e. Which market buys the most cars? China, US, or EU?

     

    I'm guessing it's the EU. 450 million citizens, industrialized, with lots of cash to spend & factories to drive to.

     

    troy
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "China's auto market cooled last year but sales were still up 15.5 percent to 5.07 million vehicles after a gain of 34.2 percent in 2003. Passenger car sales, the hottest market segment, rose 15.17 percent to 2.33 million units in 2004 but were well below the blistering 75.28 percent pace seen in 2003."

     

    So China sold 5.07 million cars last year. The USA sells about 17 million. I'd bet Europe sells somewhere between those two numbers

     

    http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/China/GB08Ad01.html

     

    After further searching, Western Europe sold 14.5 million cars in 2004:

     

    "Sales for the 15 European Union countries and the three member states of Efta, the European free trade area, rose by 7.7 per cent to 1,043,669 in December. The increase meant that sales for the whole of 2004 ended 2.1 per cent ahead at 14,516,879 compared with the previous year."

     

    http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0150business/0200news/tm_obje- - - ctid=15079391&method=full&siteid=50002&headline=indus- - - try-ends-year-on-high-name_page.html
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Okay, so the claim "China is the biggest car market" has been refuted.

     

    I knew that was bogus. Mission accomplished.

     

    And thanks!

     

    troy
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Why you will want a gasoline-powered 'strong' hybrid, and why diesel-hybrids won’t make it in North America.

     

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=807

     

    Diesel-electric hybrid cars make no real sense in North America, and not much elsewhere. Period. That's a pretty strong statement, but suspend disbelief, read the following and then make up your own mind.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "Strong Hybrids" don't even exist yet.

     

    And which engine would you choose for that hybrid?

    - 45% energy efficient

    - 55% energy efficient

     

    I'd choose the 55% engine, and that would be a diesel. Diesel & hybridization are a natural combination.

     

    troy
  • transpowertranspower Member Posts: 213
    I'm not impressed by that evworld.com article. I don't think the author proves his points. Diesels are 30% more efficient than gasoline engines and more durable; that's why they're the main stay in long-haul trucks. They are too heav for aircraft, though. In mass production, their higher first cost will come down. The problem, of course, with the hybrids is no one knows their battery life or true replacement cost; this factor should be put in any realistic economic calculations.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote transpower-"The problem, of course, with the hybrids is no one knows their battery life or true replacement cost; this factor should be put in any realistic economic calculations."-end quote

     

    Well, with 7 years of Toyota Priuses on the road in Japan, and as of a few months ago Toyota declaring they have "never replaced a hybrid battery due to wear and tear," I think it's pretty safe to at minimum say they will last at least 7 years, don't you?
  • transpowertranspower Member Posts: 213
    Seven years is pretty good, admittedly--but what happens after that? Look, I'd buy a Diesel-Hybrid if the price were reasonable--which it would be if we could get to large-scale mass production. I just think the author's arguments were weak because not all economic factors were included.
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    Is it possible to refine most of the Crude-Oil into Diesel.

    For ex : Today, if Crude-Oil refining yields 90 % gasoline & 10 % Diesel, can we change it to 90 % Diesel & 10 % Gasoline.

    If not, there is no use in supporting Diesels. Any comments from our European friends.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Gasoline is the harder product to retrieve. Some crude oil comes out of the ground so sweet it is used directly in diesel engines. A lower grade of diesel is bunker oil, that is used to power cargo ships. It has a very high sulfur content that is harmful to the environment. That is the smog you see drifting up from Long Beach Harbor. Before gasoline cars the gas was disposed of after they distilled the kerosene.

    Gasoline was not invented it is a natural by-product of the petroleum industry, kerosene being the principal product. Gasoline is produced by distillation, the separating of the volatile, more valuable fractions of crude petroleum. However, what was invented were the numerous processes and agents needed to improve the quality of gasoline.

    According to Chemcases.com, "the invention and development of the automobile as primary mode of personal transportation required a parallel development of the fuels that would power the automobiles. Hydrocarbon fuels were an integral component of society in the 19th century as a source of light. Coal gas, camphene, kerosene from the petroleum in the ground all competed to light the lamps of the cities and the country."

    Automobile engines demanded large amounts of petroleum. The early refiners could convert only a small proportion of their crude oil to gasoline for cars. As the number of automobiles increased, a requirement for higher quality in the fuels was in demand to prevent damaging knocking that robbed the engines of efficiency and power as automobile engineers sought to design high compression auto engines.

    The processes that were invented to improve the yield of gasoline from crude oil were known as cracking. In petroleum refining, cracking is a process by which heavy hydrocarbon molecules are broken up into lighter molecules by means of heat, pressure, and sometimes catalysts. Cracking is the number one process for the commercial production of gasoline.

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/02/san_joaquin_ang.html

    San Joaquin Angles for 34 More Diesel-Hybrid
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Every barrel of Oil yields:
    - 2 gallons of diesel
    - 1 gallon of gasoline
    Simply by switching cars from gasoline-to-diesel, we reduce our imports by HALF. Isn't that worth supporting?

    .

    The Honda, Ford, and Toyota Hybrids are parallel "mild" hybrids.

    But here is a true parallel "full" hybrid.
    - Electric Motor at highway speed (>65mph)
    - -or- Combustion Engine at highway speed
    - -and- has a plug for recharging, so people can drive to work every day without burning a single drop of mideast oil

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=312

    troy
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    Of course, you are ASSUMING that when you use that plug to recharge, the electricity going in has, in no part, been produced using mideast oil.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Most electricity is produced with American-made coal.

    The rest comes from American-made hydro, uranium, et cetera.

    No mideast involvement at all.
    troy
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    Well, look what you went and did. You made me research something. ;)

    No mideast involvement at all.

    actually, whereas the percentage is small, there is still involvement:
    http://epsa.redesign.matrixgroup.net/Competition/sources_mp.cfm

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    You are on the verge of going well off-topic here.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

This discussion has been closed.