Hybrid Diesels?

moparbad · March 2005

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmView- Id=news_view&newsId=20050228005610&newsLang=en

dieselbreath · March 2005

That was also message 195.

The author of the article has an interesting style of mixing readily accepted facts with totally bogus crap in such a way that it sounds believable -- reminding me of my ex-wife.

"diesel engines only shows real advantages in light vehicles at low loads" was as far as I read before determining that this idiot is so un-informed that my time would be better spent researching powerplants in People magazine!

I guess the author thinks that all highway semi- tractors are gas powered for their superior ability to deliver continuous, high levels of power and all Honda Civics are diesels because they are light vehicles with low loads........

I guess there is no editing or reviewing of articles for technical merit before getting posted to "evworld"?

PS: Diesel aircraft engines are one of the hottest developing technologies right now.

electrictroy · March 2005

With their high torque (read: force) diesel is actually better for moving large masses. You're right. The author is badly misinformed.

troy

supcrds · March 2005

PS: Diesel aircraft engines are one of the hottest developing technologies right now. >>>>>>

Do you mean I.C. Diesel aircraft engines? Isn't jet fuel VERY close to Diesel?

gagrice · March 2005

This is one of several companies building diesel piston aircraft engines. Much more efficient than high priced Av Gas engines.

http://www.deltahawkengines.com/index.htm

dieselbreath · March 2005

Yes, I.C. Diesel aircraft engines.
Besides Deltahawk here, there is a company in England that has been in production for a few years.

One of the driving factors is that "AV gas" is going to become illegal (I can't recall if its the EPA or who is killing it) so engines that don't rely on high octane fuel will be a huge market shortly.

Does anyone have any info on the disappearing AV-gas?

But speaking of hybrids ... I don't anticipate seeing hybrid aircraft engines soon

gagrice · March 2005

I don't anticipate seeing hybrid aircraft engines soon

I guess stranger things have happened. Here is a diesel aircraft engine that is certified for both Cessna and Piper single engine planes. With AV gas over 4 bucks these I think burn #1 diesel which is a jet fuel or close relative.

http://www.centurion-engines.com/c17/c17_start.htm

larsb · March 2005

Diesel hybrids making waves...

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,66949,00.html/wn_ascii

yerth10 · March 2005

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=reutersEdge&storyID=2005-03-23T14165- 2Z_01_HOL351382_RTRUKOC_0_ENERGY-DIESEL.xml

Interesting article about diesel refining & demand.

turbojack · April 2005

A turbocharged diesel hybrid would be extremely efficient however the costs of the parts and production would be too great. The car would be so expensive (25000-30000) that it just wouldn't sell. Companies should start looking into new types of diesel engines like the rotary was experimented with for gas. There may be several even more efficient designs.

qbrozen · April 2005

well, i think your numbers are pretty accurate. if you combine a couple of current offerings on the market, you'll see that it shouldn't be too bad. A hybrid Honda is about $3K more than its gas counterpart. VW offers turbodiesels at a decent price. So if I were to take a $21,385 base Jetta TDI and add $3K for the hybrid upgrade, I get $24,385. heck, could always go for a Beetle GLS TDI hybrid for $23,685. So that's pretty close to your 25k number. Personally, I don't find that very expensive, especially for what I think might result in a REAL-WORLD 60 mpg.

larsb · April 2005

quote qbrozen="VW offers turbodiesels at a decent price. So if I were to take a $21,385 base Jetta TDI and add $3K for the hybrid upgrade, I get $24,385."-end quote

From what I have read, it's not that easy or that cheap. Most quotes I have read have said that hybridizing a diesel car will add $5K-$8K to the sales price.

"...a Wired magazine article that claims that both GM and DaimlerChrysler are making efforts to bring out hybrid diesel passenger cars. The manufacturers are claiming this feature would add $8000 to the cost of a vehicle, but, as Jamais notes, "Automakers currently suing the state of California to block the implementation of CO2 emission reduction rules have a vested interest in showing that making their vehicles more efficient would be too costly."

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,65273,00.html

So if they could do it in a 5 passenger car or SUV for $30K and get real world 70+ MPG, I would be interested. I can already get 60 MPG from a Hybrid....

qbrozen · April 2005

I can already get 60 MPG from a Hybrid....

You can? Because everything I've read from owners and independent tests say they can't get anywhere near that number. Most I've seen have been in the 45 range.

I can't really speak to the cost of "hybridizing" a diesel. I'm not sure why it would cost more than gas. If anybody here has some tech info to why that may be true, I'd be interested in learning. Thanks.

larsb · April 2005

There is a driver of an Insight whose lifetime MPG is 92.5 miles per gallon.

Prius and HCH drivers who learn the game like a pro are getting near 60.

So it's not a fault of the technology...diesel hybrids can probably better that, but it would have to be affordable.....

electrictroy · April 2005

"Most quotes I have read have said that hybridizing a diesel car will add $5K-$8K to the sales price."

.

Yeah, but they say the same thing about Priuses and Civic Hybrids. The fact that the prius/civic exists in hybridized versions, prove they don't know what they're talking about.

I think it more likely that ~$2000 would be added... $1000 for the battery, $1000 for the motor.

troy

electrictroy · April 2005

"So it's not a fault of the technology...diesel hybrids can probably better that, but it would have to be affordable....."

.

The Lupo 3L already gets 88mpg highway, 14.5 0-60 time, and sells for ~$20,000. Add Honda's motor for ~$2000.

Now you have a Lupo 3L Hybrid, which still gets 88mpg highway, but with 10.5 second 0-60 performance (same as the prius or civic), for a reasonable price of $22,000.

.

ASIDE: VW is also working on a 130mpg version of the Lupo (3 seats).

troy

larsb · April 2005

qutoe E-Troy:"Yeah, but they say the same thing about Priuses and Civic Hybrids. The fact that the prius/civic exists in hybridized versions, prove they don't know what they're talking about."-end quote

No, I don't recall anyone "in the know" saying that about Priuses and Civics...Can't recall any story I ever read which put the hybridization that high.

On the contrary, almost EVERY STORY about diesel hybrids mentions the "making it affordable" issue.

Example 1:

"Hybrid buses retail at a hefty premium, however, as they typically are between $125,000 and $200,000 more than their conventional counterparts. NYCT says this is mitigated by an estimated $100,000 savings in fuel costs over a 12-year life span, as well as maintenance savings on brake components."

http://motortrend.com/features/news/112_news19/

Example 2:

"Integrating both hybrid and diesel technology could add up to $8,000 to the price of a vehicle, which may limit its appeal to American consumers. "Even (with gas at) $3 a gallon, $8,000 (more) is a lot to pay."

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,66949,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

Example 3:

"A Toyota diesel hybrid truck that went on sale in November 2003, for instance, costs around $10,000 more than its diesel-only version, a third more."

http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=35482

So I don't know WHY diesel hybrids are so expensive to produce, but it's NOT as simple as throwing $2000 of hybrid components on a Lupo, but I wish it were.

larsb · April 2005

Too bad this ES3 concept diesel hybrid car from Toyota did not make it:

"I had estimated that by combining common-rail diesel technology with hybrid-electric technology, you should be able to achieve a fuel mileage on the order of 110 to 120 mpg and do so using today's commercial technology.

Then low and behold, along comes Toyota with their new ES3diesel-electric hybrid car, which at 104 mpg gets very close to what I had predicted a diesel-electric hybrid should be able to achieve."

http://www.therant.info/archives/000060.html

larsb · April 2005

Actually, no I don't "hate diesel cars" - but I do VERY MUCH DISLIKE "dirty diesel exhaust" and all the health problems it causes. Even now, every time I pull up beside one of those big noxious diesel pickups at a stop light and their loud rattly exhaust drowns out my conversation and makes my eyes water and makes me cough, I curse the current "dirty diesel" situation, I sure do. :sick:

But as I have said previously on this board and others, if a car company I trust (Toyota, Honda) can produce a 5 passenger diesel electric hybrid with a real world MPG rating of around 70 MPG, for under $30K, I would be the first one on the waiting list. I would love that combo.

( But only after "clean" low sulfur diesel or Ultra low sulfur diesel is incorporated into the USA supply chain. )

I'm just afraid it cannot be done like that for that money.

electrictroy · April 2005

So what do you think of Toyota's LEV-qualified diesel Avensis?

troy

larsb · April 2005

I gets about 39 MPG USA, similar to an Accord Hybrid....so nothing near the 70 MPG I'm looking for in a good diesel hybrid....

If they could hybridize it and get another 30 MPG out of it, sign me up !!!

qbrozen · April 2005

whoa, whoa. Now this is a different story.

First, you said "From what I have read, it's not that easy or that cheap. Most quotes I have read have said that hybridizing a diesel car will add $5K-$8K to the sales price."

Obviously, that's very different from the quote you gave above:
Integrating both hybrid and diesel technology could add up to $8,000 to the price of a vehicle

Now I see why I'm not understanding the price difference. The 2nd quote is estimating the cost of BOTH the diesel upgrade AND hybrid upgrade. And I can probably see where that comes from since upgrading, for instance, to a diesel engine in a Chevy pickup is about a $5K hike. Add that to what I originally said about a $3K hike for hybrid, and you get that proposed total.

However, this is very different from when I was adding the $3K hybrid upgrade to a pre-existing diesel-powered vehicle.

Sylvia · April 2005

NOW.

electrictroy · April 2005

The diesel option adds about $1000 to the pricetag.

We're not sure how much hybridization costs, but looking at the Civic LX vs. the Civic Hybrid, I'd say about $2000.

So, figure $3000 total for converting a gasoline Jetta to a diesel-electric Hybrid.

troy

larsb · April 2005

quote E-Troy:"So, figure $3000 total for converting a gasoline Jetta to a diesel-electric Hybrid."-end quote

As I pointed out in previous posts, that's a too-simplistic way to look at it.

Does anyone honestly think for ONE SECOND that if VW could put a diesel electric hybrid on the road, in an already established model, that would get 65-70 MPG, that they would not have done it already?

It simply cannot be done that cheaply. If so, the Toyota ES3 and other diesel hybrid prototypes would have already hit the streets.....

electrictroy · April 2005

"Does anyone honestly think for ONE SECOND that if VW could put a diesel electric hybrid on the road, in an already established model, that would get 65-70 MPG, that they would not have done it already? "

.

If we follow that line of reasoning, we have to conclude that gasoline-electrics are too expensive also. There are no VW gas-electric hybrids, therefore it can't be done.

troy

larsb · April 2005

Maybe for VW gas electric hybrids ARE too expensive to produce. Not all companies are as efficient as Toyota.

But I can virtually guarantee you that if you told ANY VW stockholder that VW could make and sell a 65-70 mpg Jetta for $3000 more than the gas version they would move heaven and earth to find out why VW is not cashing in on THAT gold mine....

electrictroy · April 2005

"Maybe for VW gas electric hybrids ARE too expensive to produce. Not all companies are as efficient as Toyota. "

.

Maybe, but the VW CEO has already denied that. He simply doesn't like hybrids. He thinks that diesel is the better solution, since a diesel engine is ~25% more energy efficient than a gasoline engine.

troy

gagrice · April 2005

It simply cannot be done that cheaply. If so, the Toyota ES3 and other diesel hybrid prototypes would have already hit the streets

Chrysler never built this diesel hybrid after millions of dollars invested. They did not believe people would pay the added price for diesel hybrid. Today maybe it would sell. Looks like Toyota may have copied Chryslers design?

The ESX3 costs only about $7,500 more than a comparable gasoline-powered car, down from a $15,000 premium with the ESX2, and $60,000 with the ESX. The ESX3's mild hybrid electric (or "mybrid") powertrain combines a clean diesel engine, electric motor, and lithium-ion battery to achieve 72 miles per gallon (3.3 liters/100 km). That is two miles per gallon better than the fuel efficiency of its predecessor, the ESX2 in 1998, and close to PNGV's goal of up to 80 mpg (2.9 liters/100 km).

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,196&sid=196&article=1715&pf=1

larsb · April 2005

Add Chrysler to the list that already includes GM and VW....

gagrice · April 2005

I'm not sure they missed anything. They have the technology still available. I think that the major portion of that $7500 may have been the LiON Batteries. They are much more expensive than NiMH. Most of that money for research was out of our pockets if you remember Clinton's corporate welfare to the automakers called PNGV. We paid for the Hybrid to be developed. The automakers did not think there was any money to be made and put the technology on the back burner. All three automakers came up with 70 mpg plus diesel hybrids on our nickel.

The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV) was established in 1993. This cooperative research effort involves seven government agencies, the United States Council for Automotive Research (USCAR), DaimlerChrysler Corp., Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/favorites/fcvt_fotw128.shtml

larsb · April 2005

qutoe gagrice-"All three automakers came up with 70 mpg plus diesel hybrids on our nickel."-end quote

That statement ALONE proves MY point - "they developed the cars and DO NOT HAVE THEM FOR SALE at a time when CONSUMERS want high mileage vehicles."

So they missed "the boat" which in this case translates to "they made cars people want to and will buy NOW TODAY 2005 and they willingly abandoned the programs."

That's missing the boat in ANY interpretation.

electrictroy · April 2005

"Maybe for VW gas electric hybrids ARE too expensive to produce. Not all companies are as efficient as Toyota. "

.

Maybe, but the VW CEO has already denied that. He simply doesn't like hybrids. He thinks that diesel is the better solution, since a diesel engine is ~25% more energy efficient than a gasoline engine.

troy

larsb · April 2005

Regardless of one man's opinion, there is no debating the fact that a "hybrid diesel" will be more efficient than EITHER a straight diesel or a gas hybrid....hence my quest for something that gets 70+ MPG in a 5 passenger car.....

supcrds · April 2005

That statement ALONE proves MY point - "they developed the cars and DO NOT HAVE THEM FOR SALE at a time when CONSUMERS want high mileage vehicles."

So they missed "the boat" which in this case translates to "they made cars people want to and will buy NOW TODAY 2005 and they willingly abandoned the programs." >>

Having the Tech and having the car ready for the road are 2 very different things. If the General wanted to make the Cobalt Hybrid they know how but it would take 24 months on the fast track. Was there demand 2 years ago? Not really. Did Toyota and Honda look ahead and take a risk? Yes. Honda has stated it can add the IMA to every car in the lineup. That looks like an advantage to me over the more complicated system in the Prius. If Honda is adding IMA to the Civic and Accord for about $3000 (there are changes in packaging so hard for an exact amount on the IMA alone) I think Honda is not loosing at this price but not cleaning up either.

larsb · April 2005

quote supcrds-"Was there demand 2 years ago? Not really."-end quote

That's about the time the new Prius started taking orders. The demand was there in the right package.....You can bet your patootie collection that if GM had offered a 5 dr 70 MPG "clean diesel" hybrid for under 30K they would have cleaned house.....

electrictroy · April 2005

"Regardless of one man's opinion, there is no debating the fact that a hybrid diesel will be more efficient than EITHER a straight diesel or a gas hybrid....hence my quest for something that gets 70+ MPG in a 5 passenger car..... "

.

I thought you said diesel-electrics were too expensive?

troy

larsb · April 2005

Yes, diesel elec hybrids appear to be too expensive....but that would not stop me from buying one if it was out there.

5 passenger
70+ MPG
$30K range
"clean diesel" readily available at every gas station

That would sell me, no doubt.....

dieselbreath · April 2005

"Not all companies are as efficient as Toyota. "
What a hoot! I wouldn't want my family to ride at highway speed in a vehicle that handles as badly as an RX300 or Avalon, and the best Camry has poorer brakes than the cheapest Chevy Cavalier!
I don't think that "cheap" and "efficient" are always synonymous, as you imply that they are.
Handling and the use of thicker guage metal in the doors are important safety features, which add cost and weight to European brands, but Toyota has optimized your safety out of your car in order to bank more of your purchase price.
They are VERY smart, and very cheap, but that doesn't equate to efficient.
(my 2 cents worth as an owner of a German diesel car ,German van, and German truck ... and my last Toyota was made of heavy guage steel and had a 3.5-L 4-cyl Diesel engine and weighed 4500 pounds. The Land-Cruiser was their best product, but you can't call it "efficient")

qbrozen · April 2005

the best Camry has poorer brakes than the cheapest Chevy Cavalier!

Geez... talk about an imbalanced comparison. If you wanna go that far, you know the Camry outbrakes alot of SUVs. But, seriously, comparing more similar vehicles like the Cobalt and Corolla, you'll find they are much more similar. I didn't spend too much time searching, but I found the Corolla XRS outbrakes the Cobalt LS by 12 feet from 70 mph, according to C&D.

But this has nothing to do with this topic. I just felt I had to reply to that one statement. And I'm not even a Toyota fan.

larsb · April 2005

Japanese truck makers are accelerating their rollouts of hybrid models, especially diesel hybrids.

Toyotas Hino is currently the market leader in Japan. Domestic sales of hybrid trucks and buses surged 14-fold in 2004 from a year earlier, due largely to the brisk sales of Hino's Dutro Hybrid light truck, released in November 2003. Hino is expanding its presence in North America.

Earlier this year, Hino released a new version of its diesel parallel hybrid bus in Japan. The new system improves fuel consumption by 10%20% and reduces CO2 emissions by 9%17% over conventional diesel buses.

Isuzu Motors, Japans top seller of trucks and buses in 2004 excluding 660cc minivehicles, is due to release a lightweight diesel hybrid ELF-series truck using Isuzus own hybrid system this spring. Mitsubishi Fuso Truck & Bus Corp., the No. 2 player in 2004, plans to release a similar vehicle by year-end. Mitsubishi Fuso introduced a diesel series hybrid bus last year. (GCC)

From this page:

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002368.html

larsb · April 2005

Hybrids and fuel cells cut emissions

Fuel economy and reduced emissions go hand in hand, and both trends were prominent features of this year's show. Japan is a world leader in gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles - an idea that has been taken up by several manufacturers. Mazda's Titan Dash Clean Diesel Hybrid truck combines a newly developed common rail diesel engine with an electric motor to achieve 50 percent lower fuel consumption, 65 percent less NOx emissions and 85 percent less particulate matter (PM) pollution than comparable conventional diesel engines.

from here:

http://www.motortrader-asia.com/news/index.php3?news_func=show&news_goid=14

larsb · May 2005

I think this story might be incorrect - seems like if Mercedes was releasing a diesel hybrid sedan in the USA it would be more newsworthy than this has appeared to be. If this is truly so, it will become the first diesel hybrid sedan on US soil:

"The diesel hybrid systems fuel consumption is reported to be 30 mpg. Mercedes will employ electronically controlled distribution of torque between the diesel engine and the electric. Using the hybrid system, an electric motor kicks in when starting off, parking, driving in stop-and-go traffic or crawling in heavy traffic when less power is required, thus ensuring zero-emission motoring. When more engine power is required, the eight-cylinder CDI gasoline engages to provide powerful acceleration. During braking, the electric motor acts as a generator and produces current for recharging the drive battery. Analysts report that the Vision Grand Sports Tourer will feature a hybrid drive system along with a permanent all-wheel drive system thus providing further proof of the concept's immense potential."

http://www.hybrid.com/modules.php?name=Mercedes_Hybrid_Cars

P.S. Thanks be to user Gagrice for locating this gem of info....

gagrice · May 2005

Hopefully that 30 MPG is combined. I would expect it to get high 30s on the highway or why bother with the hybrid complexity. I will also be surprised if we see it before 2006. The gas versions are not due until this fall. I like the 6 passenger layout. Long trips with two kids would be great.

http://www.mbusa.com/brand/index.jsp

larsb · May 2005

This can ONLY be good for the future of Hybrid Diesels, if indeed this "new diesel" is as clean as they say it is:

RAS LAFFAN INDUSTRIAL CITY, Qatar May 16, 2005  The rat's nest of pipes and columns snaking across the desert harbors a secret process that will use cobalt to turn natural gas into a powerful, clean-burning diesel fuel. By next year, rulers of this tiny desert sheikdom hope, these gas-to-liquids (GTL) reactors under construction will bring in billions of dollars while clearing big city smog belched by trucks and buses.

Petroleum experts who have sniffed vials of gin-clear GTL diesel speak of it with reverence. "It's a beautiful product," says Jim Jensen, a Massachusetts-based energy economist. "The kerosene smells like perfume."

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=760843

gagrice · May 2005

I'm glad I bought my diesel car when I did. When the tanker loads of clean diesel hit our shores they will be gouging on diesel cars like they do on the hybrids. I got 39.4 MPG on a trip to Los Angeles yesterday. Except for 20 miles or so of grid lock on the way up we averaged about 75 MPH. We drove 278 miles on 7.055 gallons. Cost $2.49 per gallon. I wonder what they can convert and sell that clean diesel for? I would not look for it to get much cheaper than it is now. Will it pay to build a diesel hybrid? They will have to come up with cheaper batteries and electric motors for that to be viable.

PS
You always beat me to the good articles, keep it up!

larsb · May 2005

quote gagrice-"I wonder what they can convert and sell that clean diesel for?"-end quote

I'm GLAD you asked that !! Already on sale in several countries. Here is the answer:

"Tests of GTL fuel are under way in several countries. Shell is already selling the fuel in Thailand, The Netherlands, Greece and Germany, charging slightly more than its oil-based diesel. In Europe, Shell calls the fuel V-Power Diesel."

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,67534,00.html?tw=wn_4techhead

larsb · May 2005

Hybrid Locomotives have solved the "hybrid premium" - the Hybrid locomotive is $250,000 to $500,000 cheaper than the full diesel model:

http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=434

PF_Flyer · May 2005

Maybe it's an "economy of scale" kind of thing, but I bet it's because there aren't any buyers of locomotives that "gotta have it at any price"

PF Flyer
Host
News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles

The Mazda Mania Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule

larsb · May 2005

"Diesel hybrids

All current hybrids couple an electric motor with a gasoline engine to produce better fuel economy and cleaner emissions than similar vehicles using only a gasoline engine. Some future hybrids, however, could use a diesel engine instead of a gasoline engine to increase fuel economy. "

http://tinyurl.com/9uzfx

Hybrid Diesels?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles