Hybrid Diesels?

Sylvia · May 2004

Are they in our future? How will they perform? What will the emission factors be?

daysailer · May 2004

in another thread, a discussion of economy, fuel or otherwise, in a $58K vehicle is pointless, if not ludicrous.

stevedebi · May 2004

Oh, so it is not important for an expensive vehicle to get high MPG?

sebring95 · May 2004

how's it ludicrous? It's not like there's other $58k SUV's that are performing better and getting anywhere near the fuel economy.

You said At present, diesels in the USA are merely another example of vehicles which offer improved fuel economy at the expense of performance

The new mercedes CDI is also another example. Better performance and much better fuel economy than the gas counterpart.

I think the current breed of Hybrids sacrifice more performance for the sake of fuel economy than the current diesels. So far the Prius is slower and more expensive than a TDI. Mileage depends on who you're talking to. We'll see what happens with the next round of V6 Hybrids, but I suspect a diesel hybrid would give similar/better performance and better mpg.

dhanley · May 2004

The mercedes grand sport is a hybrid diesel, and very attractive--v8, 6-seater, 0-60 in sub 7, and good fuel economy.

Saying that fuel economy is "pointless" in a 58K vechicle assumes that only cost is a factor, which is VERY not true. I care a lot about fuel economy for many reasons, environment, dependence, politics, and a future when the oil runs out. I am of the opinion that people are not going to give up size and power until the oil coming out of the ground slows to a trickle, so we need to find ways to provide that while preserving our resources as best we can.

dave

usbseawolf2000 · May 2004

Hey there is Toyota Volta with 400h V6 HSDdrivetrain, 3 seater, 0-60 in less than 4 sec and 40+mpg. Can Diesel beat that? A hybrid diesel will be interesting because there are more energy in the fuel.

Dennis

dhanley · May 2004

Otherwise, why are you posting it here?

usbseawolf2000 · May 2004

"why are you posting it here?"

Well, how about to see where hybrid diesel stand against hybrid gas? You sound like a sore person from looking at your other posts. I don't want to ruin this thread because there are so much to discuss regarding how much benefit diesel can get if combined with electric vs. gas electric. If it is not welcome here then, have a great discussion in this thread.

Dennis

dhanley · May 2004

There's other hybrid vs diesel threads, so, thanks.

robertsmx · May 2004

How's this for a Hybrid Diesel?
:-)

dhanley · May 2004

I wonder if one of those would fit under my hood??

There's a pretty good reason there hasn't been as many hybrid diesel cars produced. The gains to be had are less. Diesels are already throttle-free and lean-burn, so for one thing moving from a 2.0L to a 3.0L doesn't hurt efficiency as much as with a gas engine, and a smaller lean-burn engine is one of the reasons for moving to a hybrid.

Of course, there's regenerative braking and other efficiencies to be had but with the GrandSport, the hybrid makes the diesel 20% more efficient, which is not the same gain as a gas engine gets ( although the net efficiency is still higher ).

robertsmx · May 2004

It would definitely take a lot of space to put a 3200 HP diesel engine in a car, hybrid or not. :-)

There have been some diesel-electric prototypes, but I wouldnt bet against seeing a production diesel-electric car soon. It might come from Honda of all places. The limiting factor may be the bulk of diesel engines themselves.

If Honda installs an electric motor, twice as powerful as that in the Civic Hybrid (30 HP @ 2500 to 4000 rpm, 75 lb.-ft @ 1000-2500 rpm), to go with its 2.2-liter CTD-I engine current used in European Accord (140 HP @ 4000 rpm, 245 lb.-ft @ 2000 rpm), the power train would deliver 170 HP / 310+ lb.-ft, while improving upon the mileage that the CTD-I already does (rated 52 mpg mixed driving in UK) and definitely improving emissions (smog/green house) with the added benefits of idle stop and regenerative braking etc.

Sure, it would be possible to add displacement to the 2.2-liter engine to get that kind of power, but in the process, emissions will go up, and mileage will go down. And then, another aspect that electric power brings is replacing the current mechanical AWD system (while adding power). Thats an area I want to see hybrids touch in a big way.

Lotus had plans of creating a sports car using diesel-electric hybrid power train, not sure if they are going with it or not.

akjbmw · May 2004

Next time you go to the airport, look closely at the tractors that move the planes around.
Just need a battery bank to store the kinetic energy when you have to stop faster than coasting gradually.

gagrice · June 2004

I found this an interesting bit of hybrid information. GM has already delivered diesel hybrid buses to transit systems.

"Consumer-based tax credits will play a critical role in gaining market acceptance by making these technologies more affordable."

This is to offset the thousands of dollars more per vehicle cost for consumer vehicles.

What are the tax credits now on the hybrids?

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/300_hybrids/hyb_time- - line.html

well_informed · June 2004

The Seattle Hybrid buses were very expensive, at $600,000 a pop, vs 200,000 plus change for the regular non-hybrid diesel buses. they had all kinds of subsidies from the govt,

Seattle hopes they will save 700,000 gallons of diesel fuel a year. (a fleet of 250 buses, if i remember right)

This is still to be seen, but it is true that the most efficient hybrids are diesel-electrics. And not just buses, cars and light trucks.

gagrice · June 2004

That is a chunk of change. It looks like you and I will subsidize the clean air in Kent WA. I wonder what the difference in cost and efficiency between the hybrid diesel bus and the CNG/LNG. I think that is what the buses in San Diego use.

moparbad · June 2004

Were subsizing the current hybrids with tax deductions, also the current large SUV's.

rfruth · July 2004

Wow Chrysler is going to crank out 100 of them - snip - Consumers looking for hybrid pickups at dealerships selling Chrysler group or General Motors brands will have a hard time finding them. Dodge will build just 100 diesel-electric 2005 Ram pickups. The division will sell them to fleet customers such as utility companies. None will be available to consumers this year or next - and the trucks may never be available to the general public, says Frank Klegon, Chrysler group's vice president of product development process and components.
http://tinyurl.com/3f7sa

amazon · July 2004

A diesel engine ususlly performs very well in highway driving (constant RPM), whereas the electric hybrid solution helps in stop and go driving. These two could complement each other very nicely.

usbseawolf2000 · July 2004

"A diesel engine ususlly performs very well in highway driving (constant RPM), "

So can a gas engine with different(Atkinson) cycle. Diesel engines are heavier and more expensive than gas engines. Stop/restart of diesel engine during stop-and-idle-and-go traffic would be difficult due to the heavy engine and the lack of spark plug.

For those reasons, Atkinson cycle gas engine makes more economical and engineering sense. Diesel would be a very good choice thought, just not the best choice.

Dennis

amazon · July 2004

The only thing is that the Diesel is tried and true, whereas the Atkinson is not.

usbseawolf2000 · July 2004

"The only thing is that the Diesel is tried and true, whereas the Atkinson is not"

The main difference between "regular" Otto cycle and Atkinson cycle is difference in timing of closing intake and exhaust valves. Pretty much like VVT-i or VTEC.

Prius has been on the road for 7 years, since 1997. It is a Toyota and even Lexus is going to use it. By looking at reliability records of both companies, I wouldn't say the cars that they build are not "tried and true".

Dennis

zodiac2004 · July 2004

Also, the diesel can perform adequately in case of battery failure, while the Atkinson engine cannot. And there is very little to be gained by stopping and starting the diesel, since when idling under no load, the diesel engine consumes VERY little fuel.

usbseawolf2000 · July 2004

"Also, the diesel can perform adequately in case of battery failure, while the Atkinson engine cannot."

The way PSD is set up, as long as Atkinson cycle ICE is moving, electricity is being generated. The battery isn't necessary for spark plug to ignite.

"And there is very little to be gained by stopping and starting the diesel"

Yup, that's why diesel and electric hybrid have overlapping benefits but both increase price. That's when "price for benefits" comes into question.

Dennis

john1701a · July 2004

> the diesel engine consumes VERY little fuel.

I've heard that LAME argument many times now.

It has no basis in reality, since there is no data to support it. The data actually shows that diesel engines suffer in low-idle conditions (like everyday commute traffic)... compared to not running a gas engine at all, like what Prius does.

JOHN

gagrice · July 2004

Diesel engines work efficiently at a constant rpm. I don't think they would be acceptable in a vehicle design like the Prius. Maybe a straight generator to keep batteries at float and use electric drive. Then you have the engine noise problem that is not present in the Prius. I think diesel engines are at their best in vehicles that are currently available such as the MB CDI and VW TDI.

john1701a · July 2004

There is a possibility that when the "hybrid hybrid" emerges, the diesel engine could play a role. That system would use both battery-modules & ultra-capacitors and would rely more heavily on electricity for propulsion. The engine would be even smaller then.

JOHN

sebring95 · July 2004

> the diesel engine consumes VERY little fuel.

I've heard that LAME argument many times now.

It has no basis in reality, since there is no data to support it.

Huh? What's lame about it? A diesel uses very little fuel when idling, that's a fact. Would it be worth implementing features that turn the diesel engine off? Maybe, maybe not that would have to be determined.

I actually did some testing yesterday with my VAGCOM software. I logged and monitored rpms, speed, throttle demand, and fuel qty. I haven't had a chance to really look at the data yet, but I'm trying to compare speeds vs fuel burn to see if there's a sweat spot in the TDI. (is 75mph vs 80mph exponentially worse than 70mph vs 75mph, etc).

At idle here are fuel burn levels:

Idling in neutral no accessories: .5 L/hour (.1321 gallons/hour)

Idling in neutral with A/C: .9 L/hour (.2378 gallons/hour)

I basically can idle with the A/C running for over 60 hours on a full tank of fuel.

djasonw · July 2004

Perhaps that's SMALL for one vehicle. You have to look at the picture for ALL cars. Imagine if ALL cars shutdown at idle. First off, imagine how much less noise and pollution there would be. Secondly, the impact on fuel savings alone would be quite measurable.

sebring95 · July 2004

Secondly, the impact on fuel savings alone would be quite measurable.

That's what would have to be determined. If it costs $1,000 to add this to a diesel, is there really benefits in the end? Maybe, maybe not as I stated above. Worst case, say I commute 300 days a year and am stuck idling 1/2 hour per day. I'd burn an extra 36 gallons per year. That'd take 15 years to recoup the savings, and according to John vehicles don't last half that long anyway, lol. Of course someone like myself, I drive 80-100 miles per day and rarely idle.

djasonw · July 2004

Let's not think think of dollars and think of our environment. Using your calculation of 36 gallons per year we can multiply that by 5,000,000. That is assuming LESS than 1/3 of new cars have auto shutdown restart. They all won't be diesels so fuel burn will be higher. Now we're talking 180,000,000 LESS gallons of fuel per year. That has to impact air quality, don't you think??? If we really calculated ALL the cars on the road today and the fuel they burn while idling, it would be staggering. I feel quite honored I am contributing to less pollution driving my Prius.

john1701a · July 2004

> A diesel uses very little fuel when idling, that's a fact.

Your use of "little" is vague & misleading.

It's like saying a small amount of poison will kill you less than a large amount.

> Idling in neutral

In the real world, people have the heater and lights and the radio on. And in commute traffic they typically crawl very very slowly, rather than just sitting at a dead stop. At a stoplight, shutting off the engine entirely will obviously save fuel.

That "little" you elude to amounts to *MASSIVE* levels of waste when you multiple it times the over 500 MILLION vehicles currently on the road.

JOHN

sebring95 · July 2004

In the real world, people have the heater and lights and the radio on. And in commute traffic they typically crawl very very slowly, rather than just sitting at a dead stop.

So you agree the auto stop/start will do very little for a diesel. A battery assist obviously would. Sitting at a dead stop, the diesel is already using much less fuel than a gas counterpart. While coasting the diesel is using zero fuel. Which leaves us with the question of whether or not an auto start/stop would make sense (or cents).

That "little" you elude to amounts to *MASSIVE* levels of waste when you multiple it times the over 500 MILLION vehicles currently on the road.

The vast majority of which are gasoline powered and chugging fuel at a rate greater than a diesel. Please stay on-topic.

john1701a · July 2004

> Please stay on-topic.

Huh? I've been talking about full hybrids all along. You know, the kind that drive using only electricity at times.

I'm not the one that abruptly changed the topic to "auto stop/start", nor have I focused on idle only. In fact, you are the one that mentioned "gas counterpart".

Please stay on-topic.

JOHN

usbseawolf2000 · July 2004

"A diesel uses very little fuel when idling, that's a fact. Would it be worth implementing features that turn the diesel engine off? Maybe, maybe not that would have to be determined."

So, do you agree that diesel will get less benefits by going hybrid?

"I actually did some testing yesterday with my VAGCOM software. I logged and monitored rpms, speed, throttle demand, and fuel qty....but I'm trying to compare speeds vs fuel burn to see if there's a sweat spot in the TDI."

Wouldn't it be awesome if a computer knows all those information about your car and optimize everything for you on-the-fly? That will save a lot of work for you, isn't it? Can you say, HSD?

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · July 2004

"at a dead stop, the diesel is already using much less fuel than a gas counterpart."

Nope. Gas electric use zero fuel at dead idle stop.

"While coasting the diesel is using zero fuel."

Gas electric hybrids don't use more fuel than necessary at all situations.

"The vast majority of which are gasoline powered and chugging fuel at a rate greater than a diesel. Please stay on-topic."

Again, comparing diesel to gasoline cars(off topic). If you want to talk about diesel-electric hybrids, compare it with gas-electirc hybrids.

"Which leaves us with the question of whether or not an auto start/stop would make sense (or cents). "

I would say no because it depends on how long the idling period is. Since, it is unpredictable, it isn't a solution. Diesel in general is a very good application for trucks and buses that operate most of the days and nights. For passenger vehicles, gas-electric hybrids are a better solution.

Dennis

gagrice · July 2004

Diesel in general is a very good application for trucks and buses that operate most of the days and nights. For passenger vehicles, gas-electric hybrids are a better solution.

I agree, my question is where the break will occur? From my perspective the GM hybrid PU will be a failure. The Hybrid SUV's on the horizon may or may not share in the success of the Prius. I would have to get 25-30 MPG in a Suburban size vehicle to consider changing.

sebring95 · July 2004

So, do you agree that diesel will get less benefits by going hybrid?

I think the auto start/stop will have less benefit, particularly if it adds substantially to the cost. The diesel is more efficient to begin with therefore more difficult to justify expensive nuts and bolts.

Wouldn't it be awesome if a computer knows all those information about your car and optimize everything for you on-the-fly? That will save a lot of work for you, isn't it? Can you say, HSD?

Sure, no doubt. Lets just fire it with diesel instead of gas.

sebring95 · July 2004

Again, comparing diesel to gasoline cars(off topic). If you want to talk about diesel-electric hybrids, compare it with gas-electirc hybrids.

Not quite. It's clear to this point what the advantages of running a gas-electric are. When starting out with a motor more efficient than a gas motor, the advantages may not be the same. Getting a base-line comparison from the get-go is on-topic. A gas motor burns substantially more fuel than a diesel to begin with, which will obviously have an effect on how you would implement the electric system. My off-topic comment was a joke anyway, but there's a dreadfully thin margin of that around here anyway.

Diesel in general is a very good application for trucks and buses that operate most of the days and nights. For passenger vehicles, gas-electric hybrids are a better solution.

Diesel is a good application for trucks because it's superior performance and economy are obvious to most anyone. The same can apply to passenger vehicles if the correct engines are used. I think the new Mercedes diesel is proof of that. No reason it can't be improved upon with a hybrid system. We shall see how the higher horsepower hybrids with better performance do on the economy side in the real world. The Mercedes is a heavy mid-size luxury car with quite good performance, rated for 27mpg city and 37mpg highway. That's 7mpg better on both ends than a V6 Accord which is substantially lighter. And slower.

Sylvia · July 2004

TODAY/Tuesday

3-4pm EST
noon-1pm PST
Hybrid Chat Room

qbrozen · July 2004

i admit i haven't read all the pages of posts here, but has anybody mentioned the possibility of a hybrid-diesel? That's what I'm waiting for.

john1701a · July 2004

Yes, it has been mentioned. And that's a reason why I prefer discussing the future. It opens up opportunities for diesel.

I'd also like some diesel facts... like real-world spreadsheets (ongoing collections of actual MPG data). Having other facts, like maintenance costs and compression loss after 200,000 miles would be beneficial too... since without stuff of that nature helps support the "reliability" claims.

JOHN

qbrozen · July 2004

sorry. didn't even see this discussion. i posted that last post on another discussion and the host moved it here (where it obviously doesn't make much sense since this discussion is ABOUT hybrid diesels). Oh well, back to your regular scheduled programming.

rfruth · September 2004

Do VW TDI's have two 12 volt batteries ? A buddy of mine has a F 350 diesel and it has two batteries + the starter motor is huge even for a 350, he says the engine weighs a lot more than a gas counterpart (to handle the increased compression)

sebring95 · September 2004

No, one battery on the TDI's. Required CCA's are closer to a gasser V6, but nothing special. My Cummins has two batteries as well. It's most likely because of the draw of the electric pre-start grid on the Dodge or the 8 glow-plugs on the Ford/GM diesels. The Duramax's have two batteries as well.

It's also quite common on these trucks to have a lot of electrical draw going on. It's normal for trailers to run most of their electrical lighting and such off the trucks batteries.

bighybridluvr · September 2004

With advancements in electronics accelerating to meet the needs of transportation and especially vehicle efficiency, and here is one that will definetly help diesel engines increase their efficiency:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2002/10/prweb47344.htm

or

http://tinyurl.com/4l96s

Diesel engines being "heat engines", the thermotunnel diode and diesel engine seem a perfect match. Then couple these two with a hybrid drive train and nanogate capacitors and and and.....you get the picture. The future for transportation is looking great, not gloomy like the eco-whackos would have you believe.

Bryan

Bryan

gagrice · September 2004

More very interesting information. I think I will watch that BOREF stock. It may be a winner with products like that powerchip. Keep the info coming I'll read it.
Gary

marcb · September 2004

33% reduction on fuel consumption and greater reductions on emissions... and I'm sure Japan could easily beat this when they start on diesel electrics. 100mpg+ diesel-electric Accord anyone?

http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/industry_news/news-5645ciadi6

transpower · September 2004

The September, 2004 issue of Automotive Engineering (pp. 20-22) has a brief article on the MB Vision Grand Sports Tourer. Unfortunately, the article doesn't provide much detail. This vehicle looks very promising...we'll just have to wait for more information.

dworthen · September 2004

Has anybody pondered the question of "diesel electric"? Honda has been producing diesel civic's in Europe since 2003. The accord diesel since the 2004 model year. The accord diesel achieved an 92mpg on a 440 mile "combined" test run. After going 24 hours on a test track at an avg speed of 130mph. So, we simply take the civic 1.7 CTDI connect it to a modified civic IMA electric powertrain. Stick it in an accord and ask ourselves, what are the possibilities. 100mpg,maybe more, maybe less. I would bet a paycheck,that honda could have a diesel electric accord in production in the next six months. If they put their heads to the grindstone. That's a five passenger sedan with all the bells and whistles that americans have come to expect. Diesel electric has been around for over sixty years ie,locomotives,ships and submarines. Now, run that critter on b20 biodiesel. Certain to make the farmers happy! You could travel 900 miles on 8 gals of diesel + 2 gals of soy oil. What would the reduction in the environmental impact be? Not to mention less dependence on foriegn oil. Don't expect to see this happen soon. You can't even buy an accord diesel in the good ole USA. Gee, I wonder why not?

gagrice · September 2004

Welcome to the forum,
You bring up some interesting ideas that have been discussed a time or two. I am not sure the American public is ready for 100+ mpg cars yet. They would be a bit short on performance. I would love to drive the Accord diesel as it seems like a great performing high mileage car.

Hybrid Diesels?

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