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Hybrid Diesels?

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Comments

  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    "After some digging I found that Cummins engines in the 250-280Hp are the prime movers for the above. And a max service speed of 65mph was quoted." The main reason Cummins ILS engines are being the prime movers is costs. A 50 series Detroit is almost twice the cost of a similar Cummins. When your talking 18 to 25K per engine. Detroits take more abuse and produce more torque. The Cummins is designed with a Cylinder head gasket which tend to fail around 120,000 miles. The costs of a replacement Cummins is around 8K. The detroit costs more to rebuild. It's simple dollars and cents. And in the US Mass Transit the government regulates what you can spend their money on. The cost of light rail or Electric Mass Transit is not so much the vehicles but the infastructure. maintenance costs. Bus fleet cost per mile is around $2.40 while rail is $3.00+. These costs are Operating not Capital. The Capital costs for Rail are much higher. 300,000 per bus and 1,000,000+ per light rail vehicle.
    As for being overspeced. No theses Hybrid buses also need to travel on expressways at 55 MPH or 65 MPH depending what types of service is being required. Also Mass Transit systems are required in Emergencies to provide support. And a forty foot transit bus can safely move 60+ people at one time without being restricted to an external electrical power source which fail from time to time.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Check this pup:

    The Sandstorm, from the Hyundai Kia America Design Center, steers close to the familiar look of the classic dune buggy. Eco points for this "biodiesel electric plug-in hybrid" would come from features including solar-powered cooling, detachable recycling bins and recyclable polyethylene terephthalate (PETE) panels, so that riders can quickly change the color scheme to suit the mood.

    image
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Yea, I liked the Sandstorm too. Started up a discussion about the design contest http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0fdf17
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    Hi goodcrd,

    good post, whereas I was calling to question incompetent design supporting unrealistic specifications you've taken it to a whole new level by tearing into the Cummins engine itself.

    I've always thought of Cummins as a top tier supplier but according to you they have a head gasket problem at 120,000 miles. And if Cummins knows about this then they don't seem to be doing anything about it on account of the fact that they are less expensive than the more robust Detroit diesels ?

    Hmm, I wonder if Cummins is aware that Toyota has bought into ISUZU to gain ready access to Isuzu's commercial market ? Cummins needs to get more serious about its defects or Toyota will do to them what it has done to GM.

    I am not a romantic towards trams and trolleybuses but it is a simple fact that the costs asociated with railbed and power distribution systems were subsumed by those operators whereas the roadbed system being part of the 'commonwealth' was provided almost free to operators of diesel buses. If buses had to pay a more justifiable fee for use of the road bed commensurate with their usage then electric transport might still be around.

    The Capital costs for Rail are much higher. 300,000 per bus and 1,000,000+ per light rail vehicle.

    And I bet the average speed for the LRT is also three times higher and more deterministic, not sure thats a valid comparison.
    In case you would bring up rail track costs I might remind you that the payback for libraries and opera houses is almost non existent as well. Should we not have them too ?

    As for being overspeced. No these Hybrid buses also need to travel on expressways at 55 MPH or 65 MPH depending what types of service is being required. .

    I was not suggesting that transit authorities limit themselves with lower power vehicles for their whole fleet but only for the 90% of the routes that do. Same argument as between hybrid electric cars and off road yacht-towing SUVs.

    Also Mass Transit systems are required in Emergencies to provide support. And a forty foot transit bus can safely move 60+ people at one time without being restricted to an external electrical power source which fail from time to time

    I would like to agree with you on this one but recent experiences with New Orleans showed that emergency services even in peace time by the most advanced nation on the planet are not competent to do this. Anyway I would see this as an unreasonable requirement of mass transport that is seeking to be as nonpolluting as possible. I might ask what emergency need was fulfilled in the past by having this capability ? This sounds more like a 'want' than a reasonable 'need' to me.

    reliance on an external electrical power source which fail from time to time

    OK, let's get back to diesel hybrids and avoid that problem!

    T2
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    You are totally off. I don't know what lines you were reading between but your lost. Cummins has nothing to worry about by Isuzu. Isuzu doesn't make an engine that can handle the demands which these engines operate under. And you definitly don't understand Mass Transit. Light rail, Bus or whatever the mode. Toyota has been caught coping america for years. It started before WWII. The US when they captured Toyota trucks found they could use chevy engine parts interchangeably. They reverse engineer everything. Ship builders used to put mistakes in their patent drawings because the Japanese used to copy the prints and try to build it them themselves. Check your history a little better and stop believing all the hype. Get real. The US corners the Market on Automotive Technology. And for all the people that believe the old GM car diesel engines of the 1980 were modified gas engines "wrong". The major reason for the failures were unknowledgeable people using the wrong type engine oils and poor grade diesel fuel. The wrong oil caused main engine bearing failure and oil related ware problems. The poor fuel caused fuel related problems. Better filtration systems exist now because of it. Good Luck, you need it.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    Analyze this

    http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/rpt/121813.pdf

    I guess a persons views on reverse engineering depends on who's doing it. ! ;)
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    Old Technology!!! The theory and technology used here has been around since the 1970's. Toyota just put it in passenger cars. It is just too expensive!! You won't get the return on your investment as a consumer. Like I said get real. Since Toyota is starting to put 8 cylinder engines in so called work truck Tundra's (T100 name was trashed because it couldn't compete and didn't do well). Lets see how the drive trains hold up after 80K. The transmissions are going to fail between 60 to 80K. Time will tell.
  • transpowertranspower Member Posts: 213
    I checked the patent literature and found a 1979 U.S. patent for using a thermoelectric device to convert some of a hybrid vehicle exhaust heat to electricity. I ran a Google search and found that only the Toyota Estima minivan uses this or a similar technology. If 1/3 of the heat generated by combustion is ordinarily lost as heat, and if 1/5 of this could be converted to electricity (and sent to the hybrid storage batteries), this would give us an increase of overall efficiency of 1/3 * 1/5 = 1/15 = 6.66%. This should, therfore, be economically worthwhile. So: does anyone else on this list have more information of the appropriate thermoelectric device and associated wiring to use?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Is there a lot of anger bubbling up trying to get out? I get the impression that the 'T' word sets off something inside you that's 60 yrs old or so.

    Pre-WWII trucks?

    uh.. V8's have been in 'T' vehicles since 1998. They and the transmissions are doing fine thanks.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    An answer to the anger whatever. NO! I'm just a little surprised of the Toyota hugging, foreign made is better then American nonsense your pushing. Just keep sending your money overseas and believing all the hype. As for the fullsize Toyotas having no trans issues, Wrong. Also how about Toyota being forced to recall about 1.5 million cars by the Japan government due to a lose of life steering component issue. Toyota use to hide recalls. What I'm tying to get through to a Toyota biased person is that Toyota is no better then any other auto maker. So get real. Or could you be employed by Toyota or one of it's dealers? Ask a contractor who depends on their work truck who makes the best truck. Ford!!! And I don't like Fords in general. I like GM and Dodge. GM makes the best V6 engines and most durable transmission in general. Dodge makes the best four cylinder engines and small FWD trans. Ford makes the best breathing V8's and the best Straight 6 cylinder engines. The best V8 is the one use in the Corvette. And Toyota makes Toys for people like you.
    Now back to what this thread is about. Hybrid Diesels.
    For a small fuel efficent car or truck a Hybrid diesel is not cost effective. A diesel engine is more efficent then a gas engine by about 20%. The cost of adding an existing hybrid system to a small diesel will not be recovered for many years after purchase. Think about it. It doesn't pay to spend more then it will save in initial costs. Gm already has a small hybrid diesel. It can't be sold here because of the emissions requirements. This soon will be overcome. But again the existing hybrid systems other then a mild hybrid like the Saturn VUE will cost too much to be practical. There is new engine technology like the Scuderi design which should improve engine efficiency while lowering emissions. Should be more cost effective and practical in the next 5 to 7 years. Why pursue the gas electric which companies like Toyota and Honda are pushing. Your only seeing what is being presented, go deeper. How about the MYT engine. I think its neat but I really don't think it will be fuel efficent. The Scuderi design has the best chance. Have you looked at Eaton's electric hybrid and hydraulic hybrid designs. They use whatever engine the user specs. Guess what! These are all American designs. Go figure, Oh, but what about Toyota. Using old technology found in US engineering schools for years. That is what Teas me off. Just give it all away and our children will pay for their parents buying US technology used overseas and sold back to us and there go the jobs. Go ahead buy Toyota then stick your head in the sand. Be careful soon the US "sand" may be owned by "Toyota". Good Day.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    An answer to the anger whatever. NO! I'm just a little surprised of the Toyota hugging, foreign made is better then American nonsense your pushing. Just keep sending your money overseas and believing all the hype. As for the fullsize Toyotas having no trans issues, Wrong. Also how about Toyota being forced to recall about 1.5 million cars by the Japan government due to a lose of life steering component issue. Toyota use to hide recalls. What I'm tying to get through to a Toyota biased person is that Toyota is no better then any other auto maker. So get real. Or could you be employed by Toyota or one of it's dealers? Ask a contractor who depends on their work truck who makes the best truck. Ford!!! And I don't like Fords in general. I like GM and Dodge. GM makes the best V6 engines and most durable transmission in general. Dodge makes the best four cylinder engines and small FWD trans. Ford makes the best breathing V8's and the best Straight 6 cylinder engines. The best V8 is the one use in the Corvette. And Toyota makes Toys for people like you.

    No hugging. No vehicle is made by divine hands so all are subject problems and potenial recalls. It's how the problems are handled. After 17 years and $400 in total 'unexpected expenses' they've earned my trust. Even the Prius which had the steering recall done last month cost me nothing and in no way put me out. It's a non-issue, it's fixed, it's done.

    Now the rest of this rant is just goofieness..some of it's hilarious. 4c? ( You must be kidding ). The best V6 now is made by Toyota or Nissan or even Hyundai.

    What I'm tying to get through to a Toyota biased person is that Toyota is no better then any other auto maker. So get real. Or could you be employed by Toyota or one of it's dealers? Ask a contractor who depends on their work truck who makes the best truck. Ford!!! And I don't like Fords in general. I like GM and Dodge. GM makes the best V6 engines and most durable transmission in general. Dodge makes the best four cylinder engines and small FWD trans. Ford makes the best breathing V8's and the best Straight 6 cylinder engines. The best V8 is the one use in the Corvette. And Toyota makes Toys for people like you.

    And wait until you see what the new 5.7L in the Tundra does to the others. It is so far off the scale that you won't believe your eyes. How about this little tidbit.
    New Tundra 5.7L vs F150 5.4L... The Tundra is faster 0-60 and then brakes to a stop before the F150 even gets to 60. It's ridiculous what this will do to the industry. Only the GMT900's are close to the new Tundra.

    BTW don't be surprised if Daimler puts a bullet in the head of Dodge and Chrysler and keeps Jeep. Did you see yesterday that in order to move the 2006 RAMs which are becoming lot anchors Dodge has incentives of $15000 !!!! Despite how good they are... :surprise: ... apparently it hasn't been reflected in the public's willingness to buy them.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled thread..

    For a small fuel efficent car or truck a Hybrid diesel is not cost effective.

    You are sure of this now? What if Toyuzu comes out with an $18,000 hybrid diesel that get's 70-80 mpg in 2010?

    Gm already has a small hybrid diesel. It can't be sold here because of the emissions requirements

    You will have to give me a link to what this vehicle is because it is unknown to me? You wouldn't be making things up would you now? Where can someone find this small GM diesel hybrid?

    Oh, but what about Toyota. Using old technology found in US engineering schools for years. That is what Teas me off. Just give it all away and our children will pay for their parents buying US technology used overseas and sold back to us and there go the jobs. Go ahead buy Toyota then stick your head in the sand. Be careful soon the US "sand" may be owned by "Toyota". Good Day.

    Your anger is getting the better of you again. When GM relocates most of it's facilities to China and Ford sells off it's European parts and moves everything to Mexico and Daimler kills off Dodge and Chrysler... you better hope that Toyota and Honda and Hyundai step in and hire new people to make up for the ones the detroiters ditched.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    Yo Toy boy. Here's your link http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/100_news/astra_011005.html and you definitly don't have a clue. But you have the right to your opinion. And your what if's for 2010. What are they going to copy and improve on GM's work again. Be real.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's back off on making comments about each other and stick to discussing the vehicles please.

    It's VERY easy for these things to spiral into personal disputes, so let's back off a bit right now please.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Thanks for the link. It's a concept so it doesn't really exist but it does look interesting. Tks.

    Rather than allowing Toyota to improve on GM's design...GM should just bring it to market first.. get the profits and take the glory.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    You still don't get it. It's not cost effective. There is a "concept" called point of diminishing returns. And small hybrid diesels are past that point right now. Say if fuel costs go to $5.00 per gallon then maybe. A Hybrid diesel like the Opel should conservatively get 50 mpg combined. It's non-hybrid version 40 mpg. That is a 25% increase. At $5.00 per gallon that's $0.125/mile non-hybrid and $0.100/mile for the hybrid version. Over 150,000 miles the difference works out to be $3,750 in fuel costs savings. That will take 6+ years to recover the initial costs at $5.00 per gallon, longer at $3.00. At $3.00 per gallon it works out to $2,250 for the same 150,000 miles. Not practical!! Advanced engines which are more efficent like the Scuderi design are better solutions and are easier and more cost effective to Hybridtise. Now this is my estimate on when you will see this engine in production and used in a production vehicle. 5 years. Shortly after most manufactures get their diesel models to pass US EPA emission standards. When it comes to doing business glory has nothing to do with it. It's all dollars and cents. You can't eat glory.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The Prius wasn't cost effective when it was first introduced in 2000 but Toyota took the risk so that by next year they will havesold nearly a million of the hybrids.

    Seriously now, Maybe that is the very point of all of this. GM should bring this to market in the same way Toyota and Honda did in 2000. Take the risk. It looks good. It'll probably get great gas mileage. Just Do It.

    Since 2000 Toyota and Honda have shipped nearly 1.0 Million hybrids and gathered all the good press and probably some profit. They took the risk. If the GM product is more than a skin over an idea then put it on the market. If they keep dragging their feet then Toyuzu and Honda and Renault all will have the diesel hybrid here first, making money and getting the good press.

    Now if it is just a skin over an engineer's dream then maybe it's not ready for the road. You can bet that in 2010 a Toyuzu diesel hybrid will be here. Gm better have this Opel ready as well.

    GM faithful are dying for GM to do something dramatic, like the Saturn announcement this week, to show that GM understands the surge of buying interest in fuel efficient vehicles.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Say if fuel costs go to $5.00 per gallon then maybe. A Hybrid diesel like the Opel should conservatively get 50 mpg combined. It's non-hybrid version 40 mpg. That is a 25% increase. At $5.00 per gallon that's $0.125/mile non-hybrid and $0.100/mile for the hybrid version. Over 150,000 miles the difference works out to be $3,750 in fuel costs savings. That will take 6+ years to recover the initial costs at $5.00 per gallon, longer at $3.00. At $3.00 per gallon it works out to $2,250 for the same 150,000 miles. Not practical!!

    Isn't this vehicle being introduced in Europe? If so then gas prices would have to go down to hit $5/gallon. Actually I've never understood why manufacturers are making hybrid versions of these already fuel efficient vehicles like the 40 mpg Opal. Take a 20 mpg vehicle and increase its fuel efficiency by this same 25% and you'll save twice as much money on fuel.

    When people talk about not recovering the hybrid premium they seem to rarely mention the resale value. If you get rid of your car after 3 years it will probably be worth about 50% of what you paid for it. So at that time you recover half of the hybrid premium.
  • marcbmarcb Member Posts: 152
    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=13635
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    About 74 mpg US plus 20 miles in all EV mode - BRILLIANT !!

    I'd buy that car today if it were for sale in the USA.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Too bad this car never made it into production.

    Hybrid diesel 4-dr sedan, 108 MPG in the year 2000.

    GM Precept

    The hybrid-electric Precept is driven by a battery-powered electric traction system that moves the front wheels, and a lightweight, 1.3-liter, 3-cylinder diesel engine in the rear. The direct-injection engine, featuring turbocharged compression ignition, was developed by Isuzu Motor Co. Ltd., one of GM's Asian affiliates.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Hmmm..... now Toyota owns this share in Isuzu that GM used to own. That's very interesting since it was announced that Toyota and Isuzu would have a hybrid diesel out in 2010.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Good point and connection.....:D

    Looks like Toyota now has that engine, and they already have had the hybrid side, so all they gotta do is put 1 and 1 together, and with their superior HSD technology over whatever GM had in the Precept......we might get 110-120 MPG in the diesel/electric hybrid they build.

    KDH, will you sell me one of these when they build it ??? :shades:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yep right after I get mine. ;)

    My Prius will be 5y.o. then and have about 200,000 miles so I'll be ready. :shades:
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... A thermodynamicist might say, the turbo takes heat and turns it into rotation, but let's look at what actually happens. Some of the efficiency is a reduction in pumping losses, but a big on-highway truck, at a fairly common 40 pounds of boost, is making fifty horsepower, just by turning the intake stroke into a power stroke, not even considering the increased cylinder filling. If you take the standard BMEP equation and go to the IMEP equation with, the 40 pounds pressure, with a nominal 850 cubes that is the horsepower created.

    ... This is a little harder to calculate, because I don't know the BSFC numbers from back then. The performance of todays vehicles is taken for granted but the level would take a non turbo engine of 1500 cubes. Back in the early Sixties turbos where almost as rare as they are ubiquitous today and most typical normally aspirated, 850 cube engines, made horsepower in the low two hundred level; today drivers expect 500 plus hp.
  • lensmanlensman Member Posts: 5
    I will try and post a sane distillation of whats in my head!

    I know the major thing holding back all electric vehicles per se is battery technology, we can't get enough juice for the given size/weight to make an electric car go the distance we would want out of a family car (what about 350 miles on a tank) I also know that even the latest li-poly batteries still take a while to charge...

    I also know that if we all made a slight change in our driving habits and if our workplaces would provide sockets for charging your car whilst at work and our respective governments help put in place the infastructure for charging your car at home(I live in an appartment without a garage, so running an extension cord out to the car would get me loads of more headache :) ) we could all live with and love the current best of breed electric cars (tesla roadster is an example of the right technology, but, the wrong application for most of us)

    That said I also think a better more gradual change involves, hybrid cars that still run on petrol, but, eek out the most efficiency out of the fossil fuel and as a by product lower emissions drastically. Which brings me to the meat of my post, Ive posted some of this here before, but talked about a diesel engine powering a generator that charges an onboard battery and drives an electric motor that drives the wheels (a serial hybrid). I realise that by adding the conversion from fossil fuel to electricity and storing most if it then converting it back to motive power to the wheels involves a few losses of efficiency. But really how much are we talking here?

    Im going to make some assumptions here: (these are not based in fact, just my guess)
    Typical motor electricity to motive power efficiency: 85-90%
    Typical generator motive to electricity efficiency: 80-90%

    So a simple scenario where we replace the drive train (gearbox, clutch, drive shafts) with a generator coupled directly to our gasonline engine, which then powers a motor driving the wheels, would net us a lower estimate of about 68% of the engine output (85% * 80%).

    With the original clutch/gearbox in place I know you lose some of the engine power too, what is this roughly, about 10-15%? Would this electric drivetrain be any lighter than the equivalent mechanical drive train(gearbox, clutch) I know drive shafts would be needed for the electric motor too, but with in wheel motors being talked about this too might not be needed!

    How much loss in efficiency in using this electric drive train are we a talking about over the mechanical drive train? My of the top of the head guess would put it about 20%.

    Now couldnt this be efficiency loss be made up in using a smaller lighter gasoline engine (3 cylinder, lean burn, 1-1.5 litre capacity) that has been tuned to run at a higher rpm with turbo charging if necassary?

    Wouldnt focusing on a smaller lighter more efficient gasoline engine that dont need to provide a wide power band, just a very small highly efficient band of power producing electricity to power the motor. (you could even include some ultracapicators that could soak up the excess electricity produced if the car is moving too slowly for amount of electrical power the gasoline engine/generator combo is producing and if you were to use regenarative braking, this could then be used to provide extra power to the motor when needed, or when restarting the gasoline engine if its been shutdown)

    Sorry that this post is long, but, Im fascinated by all of this, should have been an engineer instead of the desk bound computer programmer that I am !!!!

    Any ideas, criticism is welcome as is any kind soul that can point out any huge holes in my understanding or concept.

    Its all gone very quiet on this board of late!
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    This is a follow on from my previous post on over-powered hybrid transit buses.

    ***************
    "engine and a hybrid transmission consisting of two 100 kW motors and a 600-volt, nickel metal hydride battery pack. The engine is coupled to an electronically variable transmission that provides an infinite range of gear ratios to drive the wheels."

    After some digging I found that Cummins engines in the 250-280Hp are the prime movers for the above. And a max service speed of 65mph was quoted.
    ****************************

    Elsewhere someone provided these links regarding the iconic London Transport double decker bus. tfl= transport for London

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03/17/first-hybrid-double-decker-bus-hits-the-- road-in-london/

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp- ?prID=1082&source=RSS&section=press

    The release didn't state the manufacturer of the 1.9L diesel engine that powers this vehicle. The vehicle itself was built by WrightBus Limited. No indication was given either whether this was in fact a government funded project along the lines suggested by those researchers, that government funding be awarded only for designs with a 90Kw power ceiling.

    In the light of what WrightBus have achieved it's hard to see why Allison would need 210Kw for their vehicle. But if I was running GM I would be asking questions.

    T2
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Lensman, check out my post # 187 in the Tesla thread.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Good Job DC !!! KUDOS !!!

    The Dodge Sprinter PHEV has the ability to drive up to 20 miles on electric-only power. It accomplishes this with a switch on the dashboard giving the operator the ability to manually switch between modes as needed, or automatically by the vehicle control system. Two different combustion engines are being offered in the Dodge Sprinter PHEV -- diesel or asoline. The diesel version will yield the highest fuel economy benefit and is the first fleet test of a diesel plug-in hybrid system.
  • transpowertranspower Member Posts: 213
    Because there is no currently available SUV with a Hybrid-Diesel I purchased a 2008 Mercury Mariner Hybrid-Atkinson. The Atkinson cycle really is quite good--it has nearly complete expansion as opposed to the Otto cycle, which does not. On the 2008 EPA ratings, the 4WD Mariner (and its sibling Escape) is supposed to get 29 mpg city, 27 mpg highway, 28 mgp combined. Mine is not, of course, broken in yet, but I got 26 mpg on the first fillup, 24.5 on the second, and currently am getting 27.7. We'll see in a few thousand miles...I'm hoping to achieve 30 mpg!
  • transpowertranspower Member Posts: 213
    I recently had to drive to Southfield, Michigan from Trevose, Pennsylvania, and back--a total of over 1200 miles. In my 2008 Mercury Mariner Atkinson-Hybrid I got 31 mpg going West and 32 mpg going East, the difference probably being due to the difference in wind direction. So I easily made my goal of 30 mpg or better!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Diesel plus hybrid equals 70+mpg

    link title

    The latest diesel-powered cars offered in Europe come close to - and in a lot of cases beat - hybrid-electric cars like Toyota's Prius in the mileage stakes, so imagine what would happen if you combined the best of both technologies. France's Peugeot hopes to do just that and by becoming the first carmaker to launch a diesel-electric hybrid by the end of the decade.

    The recently launched midsize Peugeot 308 hatch will be the first vehicle fitted with the new powertrain, but it's likely other models will soon follow suit if it proves to be successful.

    The Peugeot diesel hybrid should average better than 70mpg (58.3mpg US), which would mean its emissions levels would be lower than most other cars except for pure electric vehicles. By comparison, the Prius rates 65.7mpg (54.7mpg US). However, most motoring mags have found its real-world fuel economy ratings to be much lower.

    The only factor holding back the release of the hybrid 308 is the high cost of the batteries and electric motor, but engineers are working hard to make the technology more affordable.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Smoking hot diesel hybrid for sale in 2010

    Now they have it testing at 80 MPG on the Euro circuit, or about 67 MPG USA.

    Of course the lucky Europeans will get it first GRRRRRRRRRR !!!
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