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Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars

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Comments

  • wealthwarrantywealthwarranty Member Posts: 11
    Interesting,

    I was scanning all the updates on subject of hydrogen and see that many are also interested in this energy alternative. I have been using onboard hydrogen generation unit for a few years now, and I know it enhances fuel economy while reducing emissions, so no doubt, this is the direction which needs more development.

    The sad part is the manufacturers have a stacked deck against these technologies and actually set up their ECU units to defeat the improvements which makes it even more difficult to convert vehicles. Perhaps they are finally wising up now that so many are pushing hydrogen these days. Like most here, you probably submitted a request for the BMW offer, but look who got cars, Leno, like he couldn't afford one. lol
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    What's your setup? I'm very interesting in doing this project on one of my older cars to test it out. Any info you have would be great.

    -mike
  • wealthwarrantywealthwarranty Member Posts: 11
    It is a design I had been working on, so I don't have someone to send you to, and I don't sell them, just a user and developer, but there are so many advances, you can make one for under $50. which produces ten times more than those of just a year ago. Progress in last year has been more than last ten years.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I see. I guess I'll have to do some more research.

    -mike
  • mrclean5mrclean5 Member Posts: 4
    i have the specifications for a total hydrogen hho conversion from a unleaded fuel injection engine to a car which runs on totally water the only use for my engine is to run the pumps to nconvert H2o in Hydrogen HHO gases once that has been obtain my car shuts of the fossil fuel and runs on totally water
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    "a car which runs on totally water the only use for my engine is to run the pumps to nconvert H2o in Hydrogen HHO gases once that has been obtain my car shuts of the fossil fuel and runs on totally water "

    We're all ears! Enlighten us! Please describe to us how this works.
  • hhogashhogas Member Posts: 4
    About 18 months ago, I started a blog about hho gas as a hybrid conversion kit for existing cars. That's here: HHO GAS But in the past 3 months, a number of companies have placed how to manuals and complete kits on the marketplace advertising the ability to save up to and sometimes go over 50% fuel efficiency increase. I've reviewed those here:

    Water Hybrids
  • hhogashhogas Member Posts: 4
    mrclean5, check out hho gas or hho gas how tos and complete kits
  • hhogashhogas Member Posts: 4
    there are other systems on the marketplace, see Water Hybrids for an overview of the market
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    As I expected, no proof/description of how these things work, scam alert. Given that the links are to advertising sites, you're pushing the 'no solicitation rules here, too.
  • mort4371mort4371 Member Posts: 27
    Re "burning water"

    Don't even bother with the people now and in days to come who bring that stuff here.

    Separating water into hydrogen and oxygen consumes the exact (for discussion purposes) same amount of energy that burning the hydrogen (combining it back into water) produces. And, since no system or cycle runs at 100% efficiency, you actually get back *less* energy.

    Picture a long rod with two heavy, equally weighted balls on the two ends. It is on a spindle in the center, so it can rotate. If you give it a spin, it will spin for a while, slowing down, and eventually stop. Friction losses.

    NOW, here's my pitch: I'm going to tell you that the energy produced by the falling ball on this same setup is somehow enough to raise the ball on the other end of the rod. AND turn a generator to provide my home with free electricity, AND overcome all the friction losses. All I have to do is give this baby one spin, walk away, and it will forever provide my home with a few kilowatts of free power, using nothing but gravity! "Power your home for FREE using a force as old as Newton -- GRAVITY!!! Tell the electric company to hit the road!!!!" (Sounds good! Maybe I should be a shyster too. lol)

    As ridiculous as that sounds, it's no different that someone telling you that you can use a car engine to generate electricity, which will be used to generate hydrogen from water, which will be burned back into water in that engine, producing yet more electricity, to make yet more hydrogen, etc, etc, etc...AND move your car down the road in the process.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    Sorry, I can't resist, it's always a laugh to read the 'descriptions' of how these things are supposed to work. I've made the point several times that these inventions would serve as great perpetual motion machines.
  • mrclean5mrclean5 Member Posts: 4
    i have a set up on my car that uses water and baking soda mixture that produces an HHO gas enhancement on my towncar i have been getting approx. 48 miles to a gallon of enhanced gas @ 62miles per hour so go scoff at or bark at he moon if you wish my car battery is the primary electrical source that powers my hydrogen enhancement...i love it.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    Owoooooooooooooo!

    And where does your battery get its energy? The car's motor - no free lunch here, except for people that sell these things!
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    If these things actually did what some people are saying, I could sell them for $1,000 each and still not be able to make them fast enough. In a year my net worth would make Bill Gates look like he was in the poor house. Well I can dream.
  • percussionistpercussionist Member Posts: 204
    i have a set up on my car that uses water and baking soda mixture that produces an HHO gas enhancement on my towncar i have been getting approx. 48 miles to a gallon of enhanced gas 62miles per hour so go scoff at or bark at he moon if you wish my car battery is the primary electrical source that powers my hydrogen enhancement...i love it.

    ...and so now, once again, we all are dying to know how it is set up and how it works! Can you provide a picture of YOUR system and describe how to set it up? I'll bet you can't (because these items don't work - I've read the "documentation" and it sounds great, but it's essentially the same as cold fusion...non-existant)
    If I see it in action, I'll change my mind and buy one for everyone I know.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If your alternator is producing excess electricity, then you can use that for the electrolysis process no? From what I've been reading it's the efficiency of the electronics now that allow them to draw low current from the alternator while producing the Hydrogen gas.

    -mike
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    If your alternator is producing excess electricity, then you can use that for the electrolysis process no?

    I thought any excess electricity can be sold back to the utility company...or does that only apply for things like homes and windmills that generate electricity? :D

    I'd love to see a pic or two of this device on his vehicle. If it works as well as he claims I might even buy one for my bicycle. Oh wait, I already get better fuel efficiency with it than any gas powered vehicle in the world. Perhaps I wouldn't even have to turn the pedals. Coolness. :shades:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    "If your alternator is producing excess electricity, then you can use that for the electrolysis process no? From what I've been reading it's the efficiency of the electronics now that allow them to draw low current from the alternator while producing the Hydrogen gas. "

    Sorry, this is the lie all these HHO folks use to get their foot in the door. You can test this for yourself on most cars. Sit in park at idle, turn on the fan high and the highbeams, and it'll usually drop rpms. There is NO excess electricity available for free from the alternator. The alternator can supply additional electricity to a larger load, but that takes power directly from the engine. If the alternator was putting out all this extra electircal power, there would have to be some big electrical device soaking it up.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Right but the additional load may still be less than the additional fuel. For instance, take a huge amplifier that some cars have, yet they can still produce it.

    My truck for instance on the stock alternator, powers an inverter that is strong enough to run a microwave oven, several computers, monitors, battery chargers, heated seats, etc. etc. The milage changed by maybe 1mpg when powering all this equipment off the stock alternator. Obviously it had excess power to spare.

    -mike
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    "Obviously it had excess power to spare. "

    Nope, just means your alternator could put out sufficient additional electricity (from using the engine power) to handle these load. Car engines are very powerful. Just 1 horsepower is equal to 748 watts, so you can power a lot of electrical load from an engine. None of this power, however, is 'free'. It all comes directly from burning gasoline. You'd have a perpetual motion machine otherwise (more power out than fuel in). It's like an electrical power plants - they match their output to the load, they're not just sitting there burning coal/gas/whatever.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Right, I know nothing is "free", however if the electrolysis costs 1mpg, and I gain 10mpg from the Hydrogen gas supplementing the gasoline, then in effect I have a 9 mpg gain at what "appears" to be "free" when it's actually just putting to use excess electricity produced by the vehicle alternator.

    I actually work for the power utility, so I'm pretty familiar with syncing to the grid :)

    -mike
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    "putting to use excess electricity produced by the vehicle alternator. "

    There is no excess electricity - why do you think there is? And to make matters worse, the 1 hp the HHO thing uses to produce hydrogen and oxygen, which, when burned, yield much less than half a horsepower. The thermal efficiency of a gas engine is about 20%, so only 20% of the energy used to create the hydrogen ends up being available to power the car. Honest (Google "Internal combustion engine efficiency" if you're curious). I know I may not convince you, but I can't let this stuff pass unchallenged. And what facts do you have to back up the 10 mpg claim?
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Obviously you didn't read what I posted. I was using those #s as an example, I have no idea if they are correct or not. For all I know it may be 1mpg cost and 1mpg gained. Of course I'd need to test it and see.

    And your alternator does produce more electricity than you use, or else if you turned on one extra accessory the car would stall out!

    -mike
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    OK, I just wanted to make sure it was an example. Here's another way to think about it - your engine can put out, say, 100 hp. You're driving along at 30 mph, using, say, 20 hp. Are those 80 hp available for free? Nope. Same deal with the alternator. It can put out more electricity as needed. Last time for me....
  • mort4371mort4371 Member Posts: 27
    And your alternator does produce more electricity than you use, or else if you turned on one extra accessory the car would stall out!

    The alternator CAN produce lots of electricity, up to whatever its rating. It DOES produce exactly the amount being used elsewhere in the car (lights, ignition, audio, fans, etc, etc) at any given time. If there's 'extra' electricity being produced at any given moment, where is it going?

    Every load on an alternator is a load on the engine; just a very small one. Every added load on the alternator is an added load on the engine. Your cellphone charger is probably costing you 0.00001 mpg (again, as you say, examples). One of these mason-jar contraptions might cost 0.003 mpg worth of electricity, and might generate sufficient hydrogen to gain back 0.001mpg of that, so the net loss is only 0.002 mpg.

    There is no free energy. I wish there were. The world would be an amazing place. Forget Kyoto -- forget reducing carbon emissions by a few percent -- we could cut carbon emissions to pre-industrial levels. Water-fueled power plants...just taking the 'extra' electricity from the generators, to split water, to make hydrogen, to burn in the turbines, to spin the generators, to power the grid, and using the 'extra' to split more water, etc...
  • pengibellapengibella Member Posts: 3
    Do you think it is possible to retro fit cars with hydrogen units? What do you think of this site.
    www.hfactorfs.com
  • mrclean5mrclean5 Member Posts: 4
    i had no problem in refitting my car to run on hydrogen i di have some bugs to work out of the system such as my computer was reading the fuel to be way too lean and tries to adjust but when it can't shuts off my hydro unit but ithink i may have solved that problem
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    Can you do it? Yes. Will it make hydrogen that burns in your car? Yes, but you'll have to monkey with you intake system in ways the EPA never intended. Will you save gas? No, you can't take engine power to generate electricity, split water, and burn the gas (getting only 20% of the energy back), and get better mileage. Nope, no way, no how.
  • blackzablackza Member Posts: 1
    Hey i actually found a crazy guide that shows you how to burn hydrogen in your engine with the help of a , simple conversion kit

    According to the site, you can get more than 20% of your energy back as long as you install a hydrogen tank to store the gas, and what does the EPA know? It seems all they do is sit back while Bush deregulates everything and help destroy the environment, and promote corn Ethanol!!!!
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Hey i actually found a crazy guide that shows you how to burn hydrogen in your engine

    Stick to eBay. Spamming isn't permitted on here.
  • pengibellapengibella Member Posts: 3
    Ok as far as monkey with your intake system H factors hydrogen is injected a head of the mass airflow sensor so no we don't monkey with the intake system. Will you save gas? - YES. Anytime you make a motor more efficient and it's use of fuel that efficiency transfers to more miles per gallon. As far as the energy it takes to start the process, which is amps, the h factor draws less than it takes to turn on your brake lights. Visit the web site and checkout the videos. :)link title
  • percussionistpercussionist Member Posts: 204
    Winter? Aren't we talking about keeping a glass jar of water in the engine compartment? Wouldn't that explode when the water freezes (and thus, expands?) Or can this only be done in warm climates, or is there a heater to be put in the engine compartment that somehow does not require any energy to run? OR, is there some sort of anti-freezing agent that can be added to the water, such as ethanol (which would, of course, change the chemical compound in the jar) Hmmm, there's a great deal to think about here.

    The bottom line is this - if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. Also, if this amazing product which can help triple gas mileage can be yours for only $50, $150, or $299 (as I have seen advertised), why won't a dealer install this for you and charge you $500 for it? Or better yet, a manufacturer can install it and charge $1000! Who would argue for three times the mileage? The only reason can logically be that it does not work - at least, not yet.
    :sick:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    "Anytime you make a motor more efficient and it's use of fuel that efficiency transfers to more miles per gallon. As far as the energy it takes to start the process, which is amps, the h factor draws less than it takes to turn on your brake lights. "

    Sorry, no free lunch. Any power you take from the engine to make hydrogen can only be returned by burning the hydrogen. You aren't making the engine more efficient, you're just putting another load on it, and using that power to make hydrogen. When you burn the hydrogen in the engine, you only get 20% of the energy released as mechanical energy. The other 80% is lost as heat energy, either out the radiator or out the exhaust pipe. A scam, pure and simple.
  • pyteljapytelja Member Posts: 1
    This water4sas crap aside. When is this country actually going to start seeing hydrogen cars for the consumer. I read a really good commentary at www.gaspriceshurt.com about a group out in Scandinavia that will have a fulling functioning Hydrogen highway by 2012. The best part is the hydrogen stations are completely self-contained and produce the hydrogen onsite from the municipal water supply. I mean are you going to tell me Scandinavia can produce this technology but the U.S. can't.

    I'd like to see hydrogen cars a reality, not just some PR stunt with city buses and taxis.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Again though there is a cost to make the Hydrogen. No free lunch as above.

    -mike
  • teepsteeps Member Posts: 2
    I have found reading this forum to be very interesting. Before I go any further let me state that Hydrogen cells DO WORK, and I personally know people installing them, people using them, and people get around 30 mpg out of their V8 engines. Now, the real truth is that they are not a simple unit to install. That I know of there is only one unit on the market thar works. Yes you can build your own Hydrogen cell, but it WILL NOT work. Why? Because the ECM will not change the amount of gasoline being dumped into your engine. The only way to make your car get amazing gas mileage is to tune the computer to run the cell, and this is a very difficult process, usually involving multiple tunings to work. The only way to really pull tis off effectively is to have another computer installed that in essense lies to the ECM, telling it what it needs to hear to not trip any codes, and also to not make changes to he amount of fuel being dumped into the engine. If you can't understand what I'm saying with all of this, it means you don't understand the complexity of your car's computer.
    Now, to answer some of the questions, and statements generated on this forum let me start with the man who claims your alternator can't run a hydrogen cell. He is right, UNLESS you tune the engine. This involves tuning the fan not to run, and thus pulling the energy that the motor would use to run the fan to run the cell. It WILL NOT hurt your car, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. So long as you have a functioning radiator this poses no threat.

    Next, to the man who says anytime you cause your car to run better gas mileage improved let me assure you this is hardly the case. Again, it's te computer that determines gas mileage, not the cleanliness of your engine. The computer is set to run on a 14-1 air to gas particles. Now, the HHO gas helps substantially in vaporizing the fuel to make it more burnable, but the whole idea is to use LESS fuel. so if your fuel is super efficient but you're still burning 14-1, it's as though you've not done anything. This is why your homemade ghetto HHO cells will not work. You have to tell the computer to dump less fuel into the motor, and the only way to do tis is to tune every damn sensor on the vehicle, a very hard endeavor. There s only one company as of today that has the computer to go with the cell and it is called the Hyro-Assist Fuel Cell. It is also $2000 installed. If you ask me, worth every penny. They have Accords and Civics getting well into the 80+ mpg range, and lke I said V8's getting in the 30's. The installation is hard. but a $2000 investment that pays for itself in a year is the best investment I know of. Google it, the Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell. I'll let you know how mine goes when I get finished installing it on my '94 Nissan Pathfinder
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    Hmmm...where to begin...so much BS, so little time....good job at concealing your advertisement, by the way.

    Actually, putting hydrogen right into your intake will work, because the O2 sensors will pick up that some of the oxygen's been burned to make H2O, and it'll cut back on the amount of gasoline to the injectors, so the energy is not all lost. You only get about 20% of it back though, that's the efficiency of an internal combustion engine, sorry. As for "tuning the fan not to run", that's a riot. Goodbye warranty, goodbye engine! Even if you do this, it doesn't free up any energy, you're still pulling energy from the engine to split the water. As for "it's te computer that determines gas mileage, not the cleanliness of your engine." the computer optimizes the operation of the engine - if it was a simple matter to readjust the computer to improve mileage, the automakers would have flipped that switch when gas prices passed $2/gallon.

    Good luck with your scam!
  • teepsteeps Member Posts: 2
    It's your loss bro. The product works, not your ghetto products, and it's warrantied to increase your fuel by 50%. You don't know what you're talking about. Here's the link.. Maybe now you can get a clue. Good luck with your ignorance.. http://www.energyempire.com/hafc.html
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    "Maybe now you can get a clue. Good luck with your ignorance"

    I'm so ashamed. :cry:
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Wow, he went from subtly including the name of his company and suggesting doing a Google search in his original post to a direct link right to it. :surprise:

    What''s the song by Queen..."Another One Bites the Dust".
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    Transparent as can be. My problem - going chapter and verse on him will only improve his future posts/ads/whatever. Friend just heard a 'news' story selling this while driving to work today - hate to think of all the money going down the drain :lemon:

    p.s. - to summarize his, and all preceding posts selling this nonsense, I paraphrase Tom and Ray: "Complex engine modifications, unencumbered by science." :P
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I guess Nitrous doesn't work either... :)

    -mike
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I guess Nitrous doesn't work either... "

    Ah, the good 'ole nitrous injection. A car thus equipped will pass anything on the road ... except a gas station!
  • jreinajreina Member Posts: 1
    Get My Free Guide of Top Hydrogen Fuel Cell Reviews.

    http://www.hydrogenfuelreviews.wordpress.com
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    "Get My Free Guide of Top Hydrogen Fuel Cell Reviews."

    Kinda like those commercials for the real phone psychics :surprise:
  • hydroexperthydroexpert Member Posts: 3
    You know something,,,thats right, you know nothing,,actually most of you people with these backyard mechanics puting together garbage units that do little, overheat, and look like crap and scaring all the real people who have hopes for this hydogen thing. You guys, and you know who you are, are just trying to make a buck n the false hopes of people who need this. There is ONLY ONE true COMPLETE system on the market ( actually going on the market ) and has NEW patents, so watch out you copy cats, and I have seen it and it has all the angles covered. and the cost is reasonable. AND DOES WORK more than good. The company is located in Ontario Canada. I have seen EVERY thing to do with cells, how to make, what to adjust, and all the BS from quick make web sites selling plans and home made generators ( if thats what you want to call them ) PLEASE , PLEASE , PLEASE. stop it everyone because ignorance is no excuse. SOme make a small difference, yes its true, but still not the gains that are reported and I KNOW. so shovel the BS somewhere else. The Complete system I saw was incredable, was all intact, Self efficient, meaning there was nothing to play with or watch over, and truely pulled 35-55% numbers on all kinds of cars. He has people from GM looking at it now....so don't bark about the crap out there please, all meaningless, really people....
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,708
    Here we go again. I guess this guy is the "real" phone psychic. What a load...
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's keep this about hydrogen fuel cell cars and not veer off into who's selling snake oil.

    Suffice it to say that there have always been folks trying to sell you something that's too good to be true.

    And as a reminder, the forums cannot be used to buy, sell, or promote products. I know the line is fuzzy when it comes to discussing things that are out there, but endeavor to stay on this side of that line. Thanks!

    If you want to discuss this kind of stuff live, just stop in to one of our weekly chats! Tonight is a chat night. just follow the link you'll find in the right sidebar--->
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Let's keep this about hydrogen fuel cell cars and not veer off into who's selling snake oil.

    So, where do you draw the line - when this guy comes back on tomorrow and posts the name of his product and link to his website?

    I wonder how many names he has created on here anyway?
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