Honda Accord Diesel????

blufz1 · July 2008

Agree...........But........the engine bay on the CRV is designed for only a 4 cylinder engine. The new Accord engine bay will accomodate a 6 cylinder V block. So it's much less cost/time to fit a diesel of the proper size to the already existing properly sized engine bay. Diesel engines weigh 150 pounds more than an equally sized gasser so that's also a factor. Honda is only building 2 diesels, the 4 and the 6, so it will be interesting to see in which cars the 4 and the 6 ultimately appear. The 6 is first appearing in the ODY.

imscf · July 2008

Honda's Accord Hybrid, a 6-cylinder only, loaded with luxury, was a big bust, as it did not deliver the high mileage expected of a hybrid and was overpriced. Toyota did the smart move and introduced the Camry Hybrid as a 4-cylinder, and it is now a big seller.
Will Honda repeat the Hybrid mistake by introducing the Diesel as a 6-cylinder only, or has it learned its lesson?

blufz1 · July 2008

You will ultimately be able to get the diesel 4 in the civic. If you can't wait, then get the TSX diesel coming in 2009.

nippononly · July 2008

There's no way the Accord will have a 6-cylinder diesel unless they offer BOTH 4- and 6-cylinder diesels and drop the V-6 gas.

blufz1 · July 2008

Well,then, you better tell that to Left Lane News 'cause they are reporting the V6 Diesel in the Accord.

gagrice · July 2008

Here is what left lane news has on the Accord diesel:

Honda has officially announced that it will add a diesel option to the U.S. Accord range for 2009. Earlier reports indicated that Honda would offer diesel power for 2009, although it was unclear which model or models would receive the option. The diesel engine will be the same 2.2L unit found in the European Accord.

That makes a lot more sense than a V6 diesel. This car will beat the socks off the Camry hybrid. That is what Honda needs.

blufz1 · July 2008

What's the date of your report? This is obviously and older report. The V6 diesel in the Accord report was dated 7/11/08 as I recall.

kdhspyder · July 2008

I think Honda, as it often does, lead with its mouth and got punched squarely in the teeth by rocketing diesel prices. As you noted above there is little or no market for a premium bling vehicle that requires the most expensive fuel in the country.

Honda by hiding the 'Accord' away in the closet ( Acura stores ) is guaranteeing that it gets little or no attention. It can't put this vehicle in Honda stores and have the public reject it a la the Accord hybrid. But it can say that it did follow through and brought it's diesel 'Accord' to market on time.

As to the economics of why the smaller TSX/Accord is the better buy this is a calculation for a minority of the population. Basic facts are that the bulk of the buying population can't and doesn't want to do such analyses. Those who can do the anaylsis will appreciate the benefits. However just think of the people with whom you went to school. Most would have no idea that such an analysis was available and as soon as the subject of math was broached their eyes would glaze over. KISS for this group. Thus for the vast majority of the buyers trying to rationalize why a more expensive vehicle burning the most expensive fuel is a GOOD thing is just beyond their comprehension.

My own estimates are that the TSX/'Accord' diesel will get real world values of about 37 mpg on a combined basis. This is a huge improvement over an I4 gasser which should normally be getting about 27 mpg on a combined basis. That 10 mpg improvement over a 15 gal fillup also comes to the same 150 miles of extra range for the TSX/Accord that you estimate.

However the math is a lot closer...
15 gal x $4.80 = $72 / 555 mi = $.13 / mi
15 gal x $4.00 = $60 / 405 mi = $.14+ / mi

The economics and marketing aside if these are the numbers then Honda should just bite the bullet and put the diesel in the larger/heavier Accord and 'do the right thing' for us as a nation. Make it a 'greenie' and/or patriotic campaign to save fuel.
[EDIT: it appears from the recent reports noted above that the 2.2L diesel may actually be offered in the Accord, I agree that a V6 diesel is a white elephant]

At 37 mpg ( 27 gal/1000 mi driven ) for the diesel driver vs 27 mpg ( 37 gal / 1000 mi driven ) for the gasser driver [interesting mathematical juxtaposition here ] a diesel driver saves 10 gal of fuel for every 1000 mi driven. This assumes of course that the new larger, heavier Accord can achieve these numbers.

We're still waiting for the TSX numbers from the EPA. I don't think Honda wants to get into a VW situation by trumpeting some elevated numbers then having to scramble to correct the public perception of 'We did an OOOPs on the fuel numbers'.

gagrice · July 2008

It was last year sometime. I did not see any more recent on the Accord diesel. The V6 diesel in the Accord would be lucky to get more than high 30s on the highway. That would not be an advantage over the TCH.

dudleyr · July 2008

The V-6 diesel may not even have an advantage on the I4 gasser mpg wise. Kinda like the hybrid Accord was the second most efficient Accord (after the I4 MT).

pilotdad · July 2008

It looks like the numbers for the TSX may be higher, according to a New York Times article. If it gets 44 combined and 52 highway, it could be a real breakthrough for diesels in this country.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nyt-previews-the-hondaacura-tsx-diesel/

biker4 · August 2008

It's funny to to see all this talk to the Accord having its lunch eaten by others when the last time I looked it was just about the selling vehicle in the US. :confuse:

nippononly · August 2008

Well, it's all relative, you know? Its lunch is being eaten in the sense that sales didn't pop up with the new generation the way they have in the past, and that it is a distant fourth in car sales behind Civic, Corolla, and Camry, and Camry sales have sailed right along, despite it being an older model than the new Accord.

Its lunch is, however, NOT being eaten in relation to all the other midsize sedans on the market, although Altima and soon Malibu are conspiring to make Accord's life uncomfortable.

blufz1 · August 2008

Correction. The Accord is selling more than the Civic. Honda is up % wise while Toyota is down %wise. Get your facts right.

nippononly · August 2008

My oh my, that WAS a brusque response. :-(

Accord is selling slightly more than Civic for the year, but for a couple of months Civic was selling more strongly. Civic is up more for the year (15%) than Accord is (12%) despite the fact that the Civic is older. And Accord isn't selling MUCH more than Civic, with a 13K-unit lead for seven months. THAT'S certainly a big switch from the past.

On the Toyota side, Corolla and Camry are both basically flat, Camry going into its third year, Corolla flipping over in March from the 6-year-old model to the new model, with the consequent down-time in production that brings.

Camry has about a 35K-sales lead on Accord as of the end of July. Corolla and Civic are virtually a dead heat.

Here are the press releases that detail it all:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2008080117514

http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=4649

Another first for Accord is corporate incentivizing in the first model year of a revised model. At least, so I read this week here at Edmunds in a reprint of a magazine editorial. Honda may be less than totally happy with the sales performance of the latest Accord model. Adding a diesel to combat Camry's hybrid would be just the ticket, I think, and with that diesel all set to come to America in the TSX, it seems almost foolhardy not to offer it in the Accord at the same time....

gagrice · August 2008

That is exactly the way I see it. The Accord with the 4 cylinder diesel could be just what Honda needs to match Camry with the hybrid. Camry is outselling the Accord. Unless Honda is happy being second best in the segment.

blufz1 · August 2008

No offense intended,was just in a hurry and noticed the inaccuracy. Can hardly wait to see the upcoming,post $4 gas price,revisions by all the Auto makers

nippononly · August 2008

What's more, the 35K that Camry is currently ahead is just about the number of Camry hybrids Toyota sells in a year, IIRC (in their press releases they lump the hybrids in with the gas models, but I have seen this in print in Autoweek or C&D). So if Honda puts that Accord diesel out there next summer, they could maybe draw even in Accord sales without having to outsell the gas Camrys, and maybe grab a few potential Toyota customers in the process...

Diesel is down to $4.75 in my neck of the woods, only about 12% higher than 87 octane unleaded. So the cost advantage to the consumer, not to mention the GHG emissions advantage to the air, is there.

quips · August 2008

I'll wait, if possible, for either the Accord or the Subaru Outback diesel option before making a decision. I'll usually keep a car for a long time. My current one is a 1997 Contour: it runs well and its gasoline mileage in typical for most cars today that have 4 bangers under the hood.

I think it, the diesel, is worth the upfront increased costs in fuel for better cost-per-mile averages, but I think that's a minority view. Still, my choice will be a diesel. I would love to AVERAGE 33 mpg. The initial hit at the pump will be compensated for --- it is just a matter of few trips to the pump, but each visit becomes an event!

It will be okay.

malmouza · August 2008

I agree with what you said, and I will add to it. The accord will make the second big mistake if they bring the V6 diesel engine for the accord, it won't make any economic sense, this deja-vu all over again; you remember the Accord hybrid... no comment there. The Honda accord market share is eating slowly by other manufacturer, the Sedan competition is heating up, the Mazda just released a new 2009 M6, GM is soon releasing the new 2009 Malibu and they twiked the I4 engine to get up to 33 MPG in highway, this is not counting that full hybrid will be available for the 2009 Malibu and 2009 Aura. Honda need to start thinking about hybrid version of the accord with I4 to compete against the Camry hybrid that are flying out of the dealer lot before they get to spend the night there. Diesel does not make any sense to buy it in USA, the price between the Gas price, and the Diesel price is almost $1 in my area PA, MD, VA. They need to think about fitting all there cars with Hybrid system.

ppellico · August 2008

WHEN will the Accord diesel be here?

nippononly · August 2008

It's still more than a year away. :-(

thegraduate · August 2008

Hasn't it been "a year away" for awhile now? :confuse: I feel like Honda is being like Ford with the new 3.5L that was to debut in the Ford Five Hundred, Lincoln Zephyr, et. al. It's right around the corner...ALWAYS.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure seems like they have been on the cusp of releasing this car for awhile now. I'm pretty positive I remember the 2009 Accord and CR-V were to get a diesel, a little while ago.

nippononly · August 2008

No, people were just misstating that. It was always calendar year 2009. It will be after the diesel TSX arrives, which I think is June/July.

malmouza · August 2008

I agree, people were just misinterpreting the news. The European Accord which is the Acura TSX in USA will be the first to get the old 2.0 engine fitted in the European Accord, with added latest catalytic converter system to pass the US emission. The Accord diesel will come early 2009 calendar year. But I did hear that Honda is anxious to speed up the release of the new diesel accord, after they noticed the success of the new Jetta diesel; people are on waiting list for up to 6 months to get the Jetta diesel.
The other thing Honda will be releasing the new Hybrid that will compete against Prius, in 2009 calendar year. That may kill the sells for the Accord diesel, if the mileage is 60 MPG and the price of the new Honda hybrid is $18,5000. I know that all dealer will get a large number of this vehicle since Honda will be allocating 100,000 car for US the first year, not like the Jetta, that they are producing only 20,000 TDI for USA.
Another thing that people they dont know about Honda; Honda have been making Diesel engine for a long time, there engine is proven reliable over many years in other parts of the world. The other thing is the part supplier for the injection system for both VW and Honda is Bosch.

nippononly · August 2008

The other thing Honda will be releasing the new Hybrid that will compete against Prius, in 2009 calendar year. That may kill the sells for the Accord diesel, if the mileage is 60 MPG and the price of the new Honda hybrid is $18,5000

Yes, but the new hybrid is a 5-door hatch, not everyone's cup of tea, and will be much smaller than the Accord. Think: they have been planning the Accord diesel for quite a while, all the while selling the Civic hybrid, which will be a much closer competitor. Indeed, those two MAY cannibalize each other a bit, although I expect there will be a solid $4000-5000 in price difference between them.

And really, we can't be SURE yet that diesel and hybrid buyers will cross-shop with the other. Those two camps might be mostly mutually exclusive.

malmouza · August 2008

That is true the new Honda hybrid as I stated before in this forum is a smaller that the Civic; it is a commuter car, not a midsize car like the Prius. Youre right, a lot of Diesel fanatics will never consider the Hybrid, and the Accord diesel will snatch old VW diesel customers, specially the new accord will be produced in big quantity than the Jetta diesel. Nobody want to put down payment for a new car and wait for 6 months, if they have choice from other manufacturers. I will have to say that Honda if they put the 2.2L 160HP and 260 lb. ft of torque diesel engine in the Odyssey, it would be a big winner. The fuel mileage will be in the range 33 MPG, that is a lot better than the VCM engine used now that return only marginal 25 MPG.

blufz1 · August 2008

A 2.2 4 cyl. is not enough motor for the Odyssey. It's getting the V6 diesel

nippononly · August 2008

They should offer both diesels in the Odyssey and just drop the gas engines with their terrible fuel economy entirely.

And the 2.2 diesel not enough power for the Odyssey?? Don't be silly - with 260 ft-lb of torque, the thing would be the perfect around-town van with the smaller engine, and probably pull 30 mpg or better the whole time.

thegraduate · August 2008

I'm thinking the mini-freightliner sound might upset the other soccer moms in the carpool line at school. :P

You must admit, the 3.5L does have a sweet sound when revving up, and has some nice high-end pull!

In the land of $3.49 gas and $4.29 diesel, the gas engine needs to stay. My $.02! :shades:

imscf · August 2008

Does a Diesel engine require additional maintenance, like more often oil and spark plug changes?

blufz1 · August 2008

Acceleration would be agonizing in an Oddesy sized vehicle using the 2.2. Honda has already announced the V6 diesel for the larger vehicles.

dudleyr · August 2008

Diesels never need their spark plugs changed - they don't have any.

I had an Odyssey with a 2.2l gas engine (first gen) and it did fine. It was lighter than the current Ody, but it only had 150 ft-lb of torque. It was perfectly adequate even going 80+ on the interstate.

nippononly · August 2008

I disagree - up to 45 mph the acceleration would be BETTER than the current 3.5 gas. So for in-town use, the 2.2 would be plenty. On the highway, the larger diesel would probably be appreciated.

And I agree with thegraduate: the 3.5 IS a sweet engine for this van, the only problem is it's a gas guzzler.

Perhaps they could keep the gas engine and supplement with the diesel....then the diesel will be the faster of the two, and that in addition to its much better fuel economy will be value for the $2000 extra you pay to buy one. Me, I would still dump the gasser and go with two diesel options.

But hey! Isn't this an Accord discussion? For the Accord, DEFINITELY the 2.2, not the V-6 diesel. Can't wait.

blufz1 · August 2008

O. K. we disagree re the diesel 4 in the Oddy. Re the Accord: I saw an article on some lesser known auto web site that included the Accord with the Pilot,etc. that were getting the V6 diesel. Later, I went back to re read the article and noticed that "Accord" no longer appeared in the text. So,was this, "Accord V6 diesel", an error in the article,or was it a slip that was quickly corrected by the site? Dunno,just passing along what I saw.

tdauber · September 2008

Is there any new news out there on a diesel Accord? Since the 2009 should or are arriving as we head into Oct., are we not getting a diesel for the '09 model??

gagrice · September 2008

Give it a couple more years. The Acura diesel should be here next year at this time. If it sells good maybe they will try some others.

savin · September 2008

some of us are using the older mbnz 5 cyl.diesel with good results and 28 to 35 mpg isn't bad even by todays standard.then there is a enhancer on the market that works well with gas or diesel ,and it reduces emmissions also!!also look at hydrogen boost for better fuel eco.and lower emmissions interested ??e-mail me thnx

elitdi · October 2008

Ummmm.... diesels don't have spark plugs. I have an 04 Jetta TDI, and oil changes are every 10,000 miles. I have 125,000 miles on the car, and I'm still on the factory front brakes. The maintenance for the motor is: Oil every 10k costs about $60. fuel filter every 20k costs about $30. Air filter, depends on conditions where you drive, but I'd say about 20 to 30k for mine... costs about $16.
The most important thing is changing the timing belt at 100k. That costs around $600.
As you can tell, I drive a lot, and over the life of the car I have averaged 46 to 47 mpg, with a best of 52 mpg. And the car has killed 2 deer. I'm hoping to get 300k out of the car before considering replacing it as long as a deer doesn't decide for me.

thegraduate · October 2008

I think I remember reading acceleration times for the first-gen Odyssey...

0-60... eventually.

dudleyr · October 2008

The ody wasn't too terrible ... about the same as a 96 Accord w/ 3 extra people.

thegraduate · October 2008

I think it might have been better with some holes in the floor so the passengers could "Flinstone It" to help out with acceleration.

:shades: :P

rivets · October 2008

Was able to drive the TSX / Accord "demonstration" diesel today.

Liked it.

I think I want one.

blufz1 · October 2008

Well,then, tell us about the drive!!!!!!

rivets · October 2008

It was the silver one you may have seen pictures of either here or one of the other automotive news outlets. I think the New York Times drove it once too.

If you've read one of those reviews, I don't have much of substance to add.
I did read the spec sheet inside, which claimed 60mpg highway on the European highway cycle, which would translate to something in the 50-ish stateside. It also claimed something like 40 (Euro) city, which had me convinced for a while they were talking imperial gallons - but I'm not so sure.

Acceleration was fine for a family sedan. It was slightly noisier than a 4cyl gas Honda, but not any worse than something like a Subie gasser. It was a manual (yea!) and compared to 4 cyl gas engines, the extra torque seemed to work well pulling away from stops.

What was perhaps most remarkable was how unremarkable it all was. It's a very serviceable family sedan - room for 4, decent handling, decent performance, and better fuel economy than a Smart.

It was only later that I found it would be offered in the US sometime in 2009. I don't know that we'll get one, but my initial impression is very very favorable.

blufz1 · October 2008

Thanks for the hands on experience. You can go to Honda UK. and get the relative mileage for the Accord,CRV,and Civic diesels. Multiply by about .82 to convert to mpg. Sorry to hear that it sounds a little noisy. Look forward to driving one in a few months.

noa1 · October 2008

I think you need your facts up to date the VW Jetta TDI does not need urea. i think it's only needed for engines over 3 litter and up.

biker4 · October 2008

It does not look good for a diesel Accord with the 2.2l engine. The 5AT in combination with this engine failed certification tests for the TSX (6MT passed), so things will be in limbo for a while.

jaxs1 · October 2008

The Acura diesel may be canceled and since the Accord will probably be using the same or similar powertrain, it may also be canceled.

It's unlikely they will go ahead and release it in the US without an automatic version since they would have probably sold 90% automatics anyway.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/acura-puts-us-diesel-plans-on-hold.html

gagrice · October 2008

So much for Honda having great engineers. They need to get a hold of VW to give them a few pointers on emissions for diesel engines. I am disappointed, though not surprised. Honda has very little diesel experience. They thought they could just jump in and compete with the big boys in Germany. Too bad guys better get a Jetta TDI.

Honda Accord Diesel????

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