Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

The Great Hybrid Battery Debate

2456714

Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    OK, please tell us how the Prius HiMH is different technology from "regular" NiMh....

    Do you have data to back up your "energy density" statement?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Just look at Toyota's press releases from exactly 1 year ago. You'll find documentation about that battery break-thru there.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Also, the proof is rather obvious.

    The battery-pack was reduced by 11 modules (from 39 to 28) with the 2004, yet it now delivers even more power than the 2003.

    JOHN
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "No, the Prius doesn't push the envelope in battery technology; it just makes sure the batteries don't get over charged or fully depleted. Nothing new there."

    Some hybrids like Civic Hybrid and Escape Hybrid are still using Cylindrical D-shape NiMH batteries. The graph I posted above shows that Internal Resistance is very high compare to the first generation of Prismatic NiMH. Second generation Prismatic used in 04 Prius is a couple of generation ahead of cylindrical model. See the inner working of both types and you might want to rethink about your "Nothing new there" comment.

    image

    This following information is for the first generation of Prismatic NiMH used in the classic Prius; from The Society of Automotive Engineers, written by Electric & Hybrid Vehicle Engineering Div. of Toyota Motor Corporation.

    "The case is made of plastic, which was selected based on its resistance to the alkaline electrolyte, electrical insulation between cells, formability of the modular shape, weight, etc. The rectangular modules, when combined into a battery pack, reduced dead space and require a minimum amount of space for cooling. Thus, a compact package has been realized."

    "To ensure electrical safety, the component parts of the high-voltage system are enclosed in the battery pack, ..... These parts consist of a system main relay (SMR) with a built-in current sensor, a service plug with a built-in fuse, and a battery electronic control unit (ECU)."

    "It(SMR) functions(cuts off the high-voltage system) similarly when the vehicle is involved in a collision or when there is a malfunction in the system."

    "The current sensor is used for calculating the state of charge (SOC) of the battery. "

    "The fuse prevents electric shocks and fire in the vehicle when the battery short-circuits, such as in the case of a collision."

    "Based on the current, voltage, and the temperature of the battery, the battery ECU calculates the SOC and transmits it to the vehicle control system. It also monitors the battery for abnormalities."


    Information from Panasonic about 2nd gen Prismatic NiMH used in 04 Prius:

    "High power battery module for HEV application (30% more power than conventional prismatic battery)

    Newly developed battery has high power of 1300W/kg, 1.3 times higher than our conventional prismatic battery, and energy density of 46Wh/kg. By adopting new electrode materials and newly developed cell connection structure, internal resistance could be reduced, and more higher reliabilities on likely long life characteristic are improved due to the improvements of cell stack construction etc."


    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "OK, please tell us how the Prius HiMH is different technology from "regular" NiMh...."

    I'll point you to Panasonic website that have all the information that you'll need.

    See which hybrid used which type of NiMH:
    http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/e_news.html

    See spec of 1st gen and 2nd gen prismatic NiMH:
    http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kaku.html

    Spec of Cylindrical NiMH:
    http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_maru.html

    Battery catalog page with more links:
    http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/e_catalog1.html

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Good information and in English, Thanks Dennis, Gary
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Well, I stand corrected. Thanks for the updates...

    Very useful to have these boards...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote MidCow:-"The current fear is the unknown life-span of the traction batteries."-end quote

    Lots of good points MidCow, you have a good grasp of the situation. Leading to a "BUT:"

    I'm not sure where you might be getting the indications of this being an actual FEAR that might be preventing Hybrid purchases...?....?...?

    So far we have true stories of Priuses going 150K miles and being bought back by Toyota for evaluation...

    We have 1997 model year Priuses on the road in Japan...

    We have warranties of 8 yr/100,000 miles on the batteries in some hybrids....

    Is there ANYWHERE a story of ONE SINGLE potential Hybrid buyer telling the salesperson, "Well, I love everything about the car, but that darn uncertainty about the life of the battery is just KILLING the deal !!"

    I don't think we have any of that. Even if we DO have a few isloated incidences of that happening, I cannot for a second believe that it has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the acceptance of Hybrids to the mainstream buyer...

    Anyone have any evidence to support that fear?
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    I'm not sure where you might be getting the indications of this being an actual FEAR that might be preventing Hybrid purchases...?....?...?

    Here's an indication.
    I cannot even consider hybrids until the battery life-span has been well proven in the real-world

    So far we have true stories of Priuses going 150K miles and being bought back by Toyota for evaluation...

    And this is supposed to make a sceptic feel comfortable ? What it makes me feel is that Toyota is surprised that the car made it to 150K miles, so they want to evaluate it. Causes one more concern about the product, rather than the other way around.

    Is there ANYWHERE a story of ONE SINGLE potential Hybrid buyer telling the salesperson, "Well, I love everything about the car, but that darn uncertainty about the life of the battery is just KILLING the deal !!"

    Fortunately there's no need for such a story. People actually know how they feel about hybrids so there's no need to go a salesman and tell him that story.

    Anyone have any evidence to support that fear?


    Is there enough evidence NOT to have that fear. Maybe in your mind there is, but certainly not in mine.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What it makes me feel is that Toyota is surprised that the car made it to 150K miles, so they want to evaluate it. Causes one more concern about the product, rather than the other way around.

    I think the only safe place to own a Prius is in CA. With the 150k mile mandate on emissions, Toyota has to stand behind the car and all parts that could keep it from being an AT=PZEV rated car. I still wonder if the state would come to your rescue if the car crapped out after a 125k miles....
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Hey Zodiac2004,

    I will give you at least one instance of ONE SINGLE potential Hybrid buyer telling the salesman, I love everything sbout the Prius except the uncertainty of the battery life and the fact it is not avaialble with a standard transmission. --That person is ME!

    It really bothers me that the production of apparently all HSD Hybrids (Prius, RX400h, Highlander Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid) depend on on manufacturer Sanyo.

    If the traction battery did fail then you would have a wait to get it replaced or pay big bucks because of the shortness of supply.

    It also scares me that Toyota is so amazed that a car went 150,000 miles on a traction battery that they bought it back to tear it down and find out why and how.

    I guess I had the same trepidation with the turbos of the late 70's early 80's. Most of them went away except a few that fixed the bugs after 20-25 years.

    If you think there are unforeseen bugs that will not occur with the current HSD system , I think you are looking through rose colored glasses. Long term reliability is really unknown.

    Until we see sufficient aging and a representative statistic sample, we don't know what the true liveablity, long term relability of hybrid traction batteries are. One or two isolated cases of high mileage is not a good measure of the entire product.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "It also scares me that Toyota is so amazed that a car went 150,000 miles on a traction battery that they bought it back to tear it down and find out why and how."

    That is a majorly cynical assumption that Toyota was "amazed" that the car went that far - you do know of real world stories of Toyotas going 200K, 300K and more? Why would they be surprised? I think a more scientific curiousity as to how the new technology held up is more likely than a "holy cow". Thinking they were shocked that it lasted that long is kinda pessimistic.

    I myself had a 1980 Nissan 200SX that I got 323,000 miles out of before I traded it in for $300. So "shocked" that a modern Toyota made 150K miles? Not me, dudes.

    And there have been what now, 40-50,000 Hybrids sold in the USA? How many lost sales does anyone reasonably assign to "battery fears?" There are hybrids on the road in the USA with 60K and 70K miles on them - are the "batteries dying" left and right? No.

    The hybrid battery is just another major component like a transmission or anti-lock brake systems.

    I would bet my left arm that "Battery Fears" is NOT NOT NOT a major factor in the slow adoption of Hybrid cars. Higher cost, limited choices, an uneducated public, and the "lack of urgency" about the environment and use of fossil fuels are more likely factors.

    You just WATCH how Hybrids take off when there are 10-15 cars to choose from across multiple manufacturers and car types......and watch the news reports for any customer balking because of "battery fears." :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think a more scientific curiosity as to how the new technology held up is more likely than a "holy cow". Thinking they were shocked that it lasted that long is kinda pessimistic.

    Did they give the guy a brand new Prius for his high mileage old one? I don't find it astounding that they wanted to tear one down with high mileage. They can see what wears and improve on design.

    There was also the guy with the Insight that Honda was going to give him a new Hybrid Civic. He did not want it. I think they gave him a new Insight for his high mileage old one.

    I do think you are optimistic on 10-15 hybrids to choose from. All indications are that all hybrids will be in limited supply at least a couple more years. Which is good, because then the Diesel cars and fuel supply will be in compliance with the EPA regulations and we will have some real choices in high mileage vehicles.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Here is all I could find on the Prius buyback:

    "The second-gen Prius, sold in the US from about 2000-2003, has not had to replace any batteries. In fact, the best story on batteries is from a cabbie in Canada who drove one of them roughly 200,000 miles. Toyota bought back the car to study it - the battery was still fine."

    And then on the HCH/Insight story:

    "There was also the guy with the Insight that Honda was going to give him a new Hybrid Civic. He did not want it. I think they gave him a new Insight for his high mileage old one."

    That was a contest sponsored by a Honda dealer in the UK. He got a new Insight instead of the offered HCH because it was the vehicle that fit his lifestyle better.

    And we already had the conversation about upcoming Hybrids earlier in this forum Gary, but here it is again:

    "Steaming into the future"
    Chronology of hybrid vehicle production:

    -- Honda: Insight hatchback -- 1999
    -- Toyota: Prius sedan* -- 2000
    -- Honda: Civic sedan -- 2002
    -- General Motors/Allison: city bus** -- 2003
    -- Ford: Escape SUV -- Sept. 2004
    -- Chevrolet: Silverado pickup -- Oct. 2004
    -- GMC: Sierra pickup -- Oct. 2004
    -- Honda: Accord sedan -- Dec. 2004
    -- Toyota/Lexus: RX400h SUV -- early 2005
    -- Toyota: Highlander SUV -- early 2005
    -- Saturn: VUE crossover SUV -- 2006
    -- Nissan: Altima sedan -- 2006
    -- Chevrolet: Malibu sedan -- 2006
    -- Mercury: Mariner SUV -- 2007
    -- Chevrolet: Tahoe SUV -- 2007
    -- GMC: Yukon SUV -- 2007
    -- Ford: Fusion sedan -- 2007
    * substantially revised in 2004
    ** diesel-electric hybrid.
    Sources: Booz Allen Hamilton, Chronicle research
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    And we already had the conversation about upcoming Hybrids earlier in this forum Gary, but here it is again:

    I have not forgotten this projection. And that is all it is. Only four useable vehicles are on the market as we speak. None of which can you go to your local dealer, test drive and buy. Maybe an Insight, which I consider the cream of the crop for practical high mileage commuter cars. The Bus is great but not something I would buy to drive to the store. The GM offerings are only being offered to fleet buyers, with no plans to put them on the open market. If Honda makes their Dec 2004 rollout that will be 5 with only two possible in 2005. Not what I consider a choice of vehicles. My point was by 2006 ULSD will be mandated in all 50 states. Honda, VW, Mercedes, BMW and who knows them all, have diesel cars available and being sold in Europe that have PM filters and meet Euro4 emission standards. If they keep up with the demand in Europe we may get a chance to buy them in the states. We can only hope that we are not dependent on hybrids for our only choice in high mileage vehicles.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Larsh you said:

    " " "The second-gen Prius, sold in the US from about 2000-2003, has not had to replace any batteries. ..."

    WOW ,all I can say is that is incredible. NO battery replacements at all!

    Maybe that is why Sanyo has limited supply, because they make lifetime batteries .

    If so, there is not market for replacement.

    It makes one wonder what they do with the recovered traction batteries from a wrecked/totaled Prius since they are still good.

    If the batteries are that reliable then, I wonder why Toyota spent the extra money to make them modular, so they would only have to replace the failing module.

    Ker-Chunk Ker-chunk .. Brain thinking ..

    Let;s see the current date is 2004 so that means a 2000 car would be at most 5 years old with an average mileage of 15,000 a year would be maybe 75,000 miles. But wait the battery warranty is 8 years or 100,000 miles ( 10 years 150,000 for AT-PZEV).

    EVEN THE 2000 CARS HAVEN"T GOT PAST THE HONEYMOON (i.e. warranty) PERIOD!!!!!!!!

    We don't know what the battery life is or will be!! I wonder how long the first cromagnum man thought a fire would burn ?

    P.S.- There was one guy that had his car damaged by an aftermarket installer and had to have his battery replaced. So In my limited access to Prius users, there has been at least one replacement. And 1 is greater than zero!

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"Larb you said: "The second-gen Prius, sold in the US from about 2000-2003, has not had to replace any batteries. ..."-end quote

    I actually did not say that. I cut that over from another website. And I wasn't quoting it for that section, I was quoting it for the reference to the 200K Prius that was sold back to Toyota. I have no idea how many 2000-2003 Priuses have had batteries replaced, but I'm sure the number is greater than Zero.

    I was in no way insinuating that battery failures and replacements will not occur over time. That would be a ridiculous assumption, and someone with half a lick of common sense would not expect "no failures" in any component in any car.

    But remember: Prius batteries are expected to and designed to go 150K before replacement. And they come with the 8 yr/80K warranty. So Toyota seems pretty sure they have a solid component there, eh?

    And as far as battery life, does anyone have ANY REAL EVIDENCE that these batteries are failing before 150K? Sure, there are isolated incidents of batteries being replaced, like ANY OTHER CAR PART, but there is still no VALID REASON to DOUBT that you can get 150K out of the batteries.

    Why doubt it? Toyota makes great cars, and has BILLIONS of miles driven on their cars. If their engineers say 150K is a good lifespan for the battery pack, WHO ARE WE to doubt their engineering expertise?
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    Hey Zodiac2004,

    I will give you at least one instance of ONE SINGLE potential Hybrid buyer telling the salesman, I love everything sbout the Prius except the uncertainty of the battery life and the fact it is not avaialble with a standard transmission. --That person is ME!

    It really bothers me that the production of apparently all HSD Hybrids (Prius, RX400h, Highlander Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid) depend on on manufacturer Sanyo.

    If the traction battery did fail then you would have a wait to get it replaced or pay big bucks because of the shortness of supply.

    It also scares me that Toyota is so amazed that a car went 150,000 miles on a traction battery that they bought it back to tear it down and find out why and how.

    I guess I had the same trepidation with the turbos of the late 70's early 80's. Most of them went away except a few that fixed the bugs after 20-25 years.

    If you think there are unforeseen bugs that will not occur with the current HSD system , I think you are looking through rose colored glasses. Long term reliability is really unknown.

    Until we see sufficient aging and a representative statistic sample, we don't know what the true liveablity, long term relability of hybrid traction batteries are. One or two isolated cases of high mileage is not a good measure of the entire product.

    YMMV,

    MidCow

    Wow, hold up there. This post should be addressed to larsb, not me.

    I agree 100% with every word you have typed up here. Especially about the turbos.

    I think there are close similarities between turbos and hybrids. Both make smaller engines perform like bigger ones, although the green factor is to the hybrids' advantage.

    They have been around for 20-25 years but for the longest time many people regarded them as suspect, and some people still do.

    When you mess with powertrain technology it's going to be a very long time before it gets accepted as mainstream, and any failures in the meantime are going to have an amplified effect.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Zodiac2004,

    You are right , SORRY I read message #344 wrong.

    MidCow
  • jpricejprice Member Posts: 58
    < But remember: Prius batteries are expected to and designed to go 150K before replacement. And they come with the 8 yr/80K warranty.>

    The brochure for the Prius says 8 yr/100K.

    jprice
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Lets get the facts right ..... The coverage IS 8 YEARS OR 100,000 MILES on the Hybrid Drivetrain. Isn't it funny how history keeps repeating its self with FEARS of the new "contraptions" that brave & bold folks go forth challenging "the old ways".
    "Look! Here comes that guy with that silly steam-powered automobile. Quick! Pull the old gray mare over before he explodes next to us(like maybe a battery?)."
    Those first cars were looked upon as so many crazy mechanized monsters that scared everyone except those brave "foolhearty" pioneers. Some thing just never change. I so glad I'm GREEN and also adventursome. Don't you wish everyone was?
    Culliganman (tasting the hybrid waters)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That's one of the good things about these forums - sometimes people can come along and in just a few words "summarize" a point of view and point out the folly of another.

    Great point about how pessimistic, irrational, unfounded "fear of the unknown" is rearing it's head in the battery issue....
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    You can choose to call yourself pioneers - we choose to call you scapegoats.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Scapegoat defined:

    "One that is made to bear the blame of others."

    I think maybe you mean Guinea Pig:

    "A person who is used as a subject for experimentation or research."

    Yes, we are experimenting with the 150K life of the batteries......:)
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    and now that we are off the name calling, let's get back to discussing batteries.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    You're going to muddy the waters with facts larsb.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "What it makes me feel is that Toyota is surprised that the car made it to 150K miles, so they want to evaluate it. Causes one more concern about the product, rather than the other way around."

    Prius battery has warrenty for 150K miles in California and New York, etc... Engineers do not design just to last up until warrenty period. They test and verify them to last at least 20% longer than warrenty period. Toyota answered the following:

    "How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

    The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle. We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well. Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear."
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- =20040623

    Toyota was suriprise with Andrew Grant because he drove over 200,000 miles(more than Toyota tested) on the classic Prius taxi in 2 years and averaged 48 mpg(US).
    http://www.toyota.ca/NWS/media/ftp/04gazette_winter_e.zip

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "It really bothers me that the production of apparently all HSD Hybrids (Prius, RX400h, Highlander Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid) depend on on manufacturer Sanyo."

    Only Escape Hybrid and Accord Hybrid use HV NiMH from Sanyo. Panasonic EV provides HV NiMH packs for Insight, HCH, classic Prius, 04' Prius, and many other Toyota hybrids in Japan.
    http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/e_catalog2.html

    "It also scares me that Toyota is so amazed that a car went 150,000 miles on a traction battery that they bought it back to tear it down and find out why and how."

    Your statement is out of context from what Toyota said. Read the story at above link from toyota.ca.

    "Until we see sufficient aging and a representative statistic sample, we don't know what the true liveablity, long term relability of hybrid traction batteries are."

    7 years old japanese Prius still running on the road is not a representative statistic? What are you pretending not to know?

    "One or two isolated cases of high mileage is not a good measure of the entire product."
     
    Yup, one or two isolated failures is not a good measure for the entire product either. If HV battery pack is unreliable like you described, there would be so many failures for 7 years old classic Prius battery packs but there aren't. Facts speak for itself, so do FUDs.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I think there are close similarities between turbos and hybrids. Both make smaller engines perform like bigger ones, although the green factor is to the hybrids' advantage."

    Not even close. Turbo forces air into the combustion chamber and burn more fuel along with it to produce more power from the ICE. In another word, pushing the ICE to do more work by increasing more stress.

    Hybrid works completely the other way around. By choosing two opposite powertrains, the stress can be split into two. The benefits created by both powertrains is the synergy effect which translates to more power, less emission and fuel usage. ICE used in HSD does not need to reach high RPM either. For example, Prius ICE output max 76hp at around 5,000 RPM.

    The real issue is the realiability of the battery pack. Let me first say that all your experiences with battery do not apply to hybrid vehicle batteries. Everything you ever used that had battery utilized battery in a "dumb" way. You fully charge it so that you can fully drain it and repeat the cycle. That behavior damages the battery and consumer electronic NiMH do not last over 1,000 recharges.

    Since HV battery pack usage is managed and protected by a dedicated CPU (battery management unit), HV packs last a lot(10x) longer! To go into detail, not every hybrid design can take care of the battery pack the same way. HSD can recharge the battery on demand. It is possible because there are two electric motor when one is driving the wheel, another can generate electricity.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Maybe that is why Sanyo has limited supply..."

    Check your facts. Sanyo doesn't supply HV battery for the Prius.

    "If the batteries are that reliable then, I wonder why Toyota spent the extra money to make them modular, so they would only have to replace the failing module."

    Panasonic EV made 7.2V modules to get around licensing lawsuits. Ovonic(I think) only license out NiMH technology to produce small cells. They reserve the right to make large cells for electric vehicle development. One way for Japanese battery manufacturers to get around is to make and sell small modules. Hybrid car manufacturers buy those modules and form a bigger pack. Ability to be able to replace bad modules is a side benefit from that lawsuit loop hole.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Toyota makes great cars, and has BILLIONS of miles driven on their cars. If their engineers say 150K is a good lifespan for the battery pack, WHO ARE WE to doubt their engineering expertise?"

    Some people do. They would question why anyone would spent extra for green technology, while for them, spending more $$ for performance is perfectly acceptable. They don't care what comes out of the tail pipe if certain type of engines make great low end torque. They question how long the battery pack would last but not how long the oil supply would last. They would question environment impact of the battery pack recycling but not the whole car itself. They don't question spending $$ for bigger and more powerful car either. They don't care realiability of a car as long as the car is more than they are used to. It is sad but true.

    Dennis
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Once again I'd like clarification. Isn't the hybrid battery manufactured by PANASONIC and not SANYO for the PRIUS? Who makes Honda's battery? While we're at it. What about the FORD ESCAPE Hybrid? Also, isn't the mother company MITSUSHITA? (excuse the spelling)
    Culliganman
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This is one of the lawsuits that was settled to allow the use of the NiMH technology in hybrids.

    JUDGE ISSUES SCHEDULING ORDER IN OVONIC BATTERY/MATSUSHITA BATTERY LAWSUIT

    http://www.ovonic.com/news_events/5_2_press_releases/20011101.htm
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Once again I'd like clarification. Isn't the hybrid battery manufactured by PANASONIC and not SANYO for the PRIUS?"

    Yes, you are correct. Refer to msg#81 for more info. You can visit below link for confirmation.

    http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/e_catalog2.html

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "This is one of the lawsuits that was settled to allow the use of the NiMH technology in hybrids."

    Yup. Ovonic filed the lawsuit anyway. I believe Panasonic EV could of fought it and won but it would delay Prius and other HSD car production. It was the best interest for Toyota to settle it ASAP. Maybe that's how Ovonic took the advantage of the unexpected 04 Prius demand.

    Dennis
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Lets get the facts right ..... The coverage IS 8 YEARS OR 100,000 MILES on the Hybrid Drivetrain."

    I believe that Cailifornia mandated 10 years and 150,000 miles. 8/100K is the Toyota warranty.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe that California mandated 10 years and 150,000 miles. 8/100K is the Toyota warranty.</B.

    That is the way I understand it. My question is if the car has a problem in CA at 125k miles. Will the State of CA force Toyota to fix it. The car is required to get AT-PZEV rating, that it maintains the same level of emissions for that 10 yr 150k miles. So if the battery or electric motor or ICE dies it will not maintain that emissions level.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "My question is if the car has a problem in CA at 125k miles. Will the State of CA force Toyota to fix it. "

    Toyota will honor the warranty; it is part of the cost of doing business in California.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I'm an electrical engineer, and I did a lot of research before I bought a hybrid. Based upon what I uncovered:

    - the battery in a hybrid will last as long as the engine (~250,000 miles)
    - unless you abuse it (lots of stop-n-go)

    The reason the battery can last so long is because the hybrids barely use it. Lack of use = lack of stress = long life.

    Troy
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    are you saying thay have more battery than they need?
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Er, yes, but no not really.

    NiMH Battery chemistry is weird. If you exceed 90%, or drop below 60%, you stress the battery and cause damage. That's why pure electric cars have to replace every 100,000 miles... they damage their battery from overcharging/emptying.

    .

    The hybrids only use the "sweet spot" between 60-90% in order to avoid battery damage. They are only using 1/3rd of the battery, but that extends its life to >250,000 miles, and eliminates replacement cost.

    Plus like I said, hybrids barely use the battery. 10 seconds to boost 0 to 60, 1 second boost to climb a small hill, 10 seconds to slow down. The amount of time my Insight uses its battery is <1% of the total trip.

    Troy
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"If you exceed 90%, or drop below 60%, you stress the battery and cause damage."-end quote

    If that is true, then my 2004 HCH is damaging it's battery every day. I drive city miles only (very few exceptions in the first 4 months) and my battery charge indicator is ALWAYS hovering between 5% and usually around 20% unless I get on a long road with no red lights and set the cruise for a while, then I can get it up above 75%.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    The charge indicator is calibrated like this:
    _ 90%
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |
    - 60%
    So you're only seeing the top 1/3rd of the battery. It's not really empty.

    .

    However, you are correct that city driving will stress the battery. Also the engine. And the oil. And the transmission fluid. And the exhaust/catalytic converter. City driving is bad all around.

    I recall my first car completely rusted out after only one year. It never got hot enough to burn off the moisture! After learning that expensive lesson, I would never shift above 3rd to ensure my engine got nice-and-hot every day & burned off excess water/pollutants from the oil/exhaust.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"the circa 1997 Japanese Priuses would be all over the news for a rash of battery replacements. There may be a lot of bad batteries. I cannot read Japanese so would not know."-end quote

    Gary, think about it for a second: In today's world, news gets around. The Japanese press would have picked up on any rash of failures since Toyota is one of the world's largest companies - that would NOT have slipped under the radar.

    On top of that, with Blogs and how much focus people have placed on the Hybrid cars, ANYTHING like a story of that magnitude WOULD have come to our attention by now.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've said it before, I would not be too concerned about the battery with the CA 10 year, 150k mile warranty. I think the key is to get a hybrid that is AT-PZEV. Then CA will force the manufacturer to maintain that emissions level for that 10 yr. 150k mile period. That should cover the whole drivetrain.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    UPDATE:
    I did some research. Toyota's charge indicator is calibrated like below, and only uses 30% of the battery's range:
    _ 70%
    |
    |
    |
    - 40%

    Honda uses 60% of the battery & its charge indicator is calibrated:
    _ 80%
    |
    |
    |
    - 20%

    Notice that both avoid under-or-over-charging the battery, to avoid damage, and extend battery life = engine life. No replacement needed.

    Troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Automakers hope that the growing popularity of hybrids will entice other companies to build the battery packs, increasing competition and ultimately reducing the price, which now can run as high as $5,000

    If they cannot keep up now with the small production. What is the outlook for the time when your hybrid needs a new battery? Will you have a 2 month wait till they get a spare? Does Toyota & Honda USA have a supply of spare batteries in stock?

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-11-21-hybrid-batteries_x- - .htm
  • bjrichbjrich Member Posts: 125
    dear gagrice;
    I have been told that you may replace the battery a small section at a time, for about $150.00, if and when the battery fails///told to me by a Toyota manager. I found no reference in the USA article about $5000.00 for a battery, or any shortage...Toyota has been adding production an a high rate which was not anticipated and thus caused the battery pack backup....All the conjecture really is just that;;;conecture, and what if's....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I found no reference in the USA article about $5000.00 for a battery,

    read the 8th paragraph. The whole article is about battery shortfalls. My experience with batteries tell me you may be able to exchange one cell at a time. However they usually go bad at about the same time, so you may be spending a lot of time replacing one cell every few weeks.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    more than 100,000 hybrids sold thus far by Toyota, they were saying a few months ago that they had NEVER replaced an entire batterry pack system.

    That ZERO may have since changed, but it's not happening in massive numbers you can be sure, or it would be all over these forums.
This discussion has been closed.