The Great Hybrid Battery Debate

Kirstie_H · January 2006

Yes, but of course that's true, given that they're supposed to have a minimum 10-year lifespan. That just means that the defect rate is pretty durn low, and isn't an accurate predictor of the percentage that will require replacement in upcoming years.

gagrice · January 2006

For those that have to pay to replace a battery, and there are some, it is 100%. There have been several Insight owners here on Edmund's that have had to replace their expensive battery. We are talking high mileage vehicles. Past the 80k or 150k mile warranty. You will not know about most of them as the automaker is NOT going to tell you. If you think the Toyota will tell how many traction batteries they have replaced you are living in a dream world. In fact I think they are banking on them dying after the warranty. A chance to recoup some of the R&D on their loss leaders. I really think that is why Honda is holding back on mass production. It could bite Toyota in the butt.

larsb · January 2006

The most I have read about an owner paying was one Insight owner who paid $500 for his replacement, with Honda covering the remainder of the cost.

Almost all replacements done to date have been under warranty, and they have been miniscule in number considering the number of cars involved.

midnightcowboy · January 2006

Actually the real figure is unknown that is just your SWAG

midnightcowboy · January 2006

Actually the real numbers of replacements and the cost is unknown.
Many owners do not participate in Car Forums. And those that do particpate is probably not an accurate statistical sample!

We don't know the costs.
we don't know how many Honda or Toyota covered or did not cover.
We don't know how many poeple reported or did not report their problems.

We only know what owners who particpate in car forums have entered. The miniscle number may not be accurate, because I would venture to say that the number of car forum participants is miniscule compared to the number of cars involved.

And miniscule divided by miniscule is a meaningless measurement, Just as John's declaration of "the need for replacement is unlikely", implying zero problems.

On a lighter side, where did RailroadJames go? His comments were always upbeat and interesting.

YMMV but I shift,

MidCow

larsb · January 2006

I think since Japan probably has the largest number of hybrids per capita, and they are an information socieity over there, I'm pretty sure that batteries dying like flies would come to our attention.

If the Japanese thought it was a problem, they would be discussing it on a national scale and WE would certainly hear about it.

That's not speculation on my part, it's absolutely a fact. Hybrid batteries, it they do ever become a problem, will not fly under the USA radar.

kdhspyder · January 2006

See toyota's website. They have been testing this system along with the batteries for what 15 yrs now? They should have some internal idea about it expected life.

In fact they do. On the Toyota website Hybrid>>>FAQ they state that the batteries are expected to last for the life of the vehicle. As the questioning poster noted Toyotas often go well into the 200K mi range. I've had 4 that have done so.

I will Keep you updated on the Prius. At 45K mi/y I will reach 225K mi in 5 yrs.

gagrice · January 2006

That's not speculation on my part, it's absolutely a fact.

It is TOTAL speculation, based on little or NO facts. The Japanese are not an open society like we are. We spill our guts on everything. Anything that looks negative is squelched in Japan. Can you link an automotive forum similar to Edmund's coming out of Japan?

larsb · January 2006

It's not speculation at all. I stated facts:

1. Japan is an information society.
2. Japan has the largest per capita hybrids owned.
3. Japan has blogs and websites where people discuss their lives just as every country does.
4. Japan has newspapers.

I could find you blogs and forums in Japan if I spoke the language and had the Japanese fonts installed in my browser, which I don't. But you know they exist, don't play dumb....

gagrice · January 2006

But you know they exist, don't play dumb

So if you cannot read Japanese how do know if they are even discussing the ownership of hybrids? You are speculating pure and simple.

larsb · January 2006

I think the fact that they sell more hybrids per capita there certainly indicates that the owners are discussing the technology, just as we are here, and I'm sure the Brits and Aussies and Germans are too.

This is 2006, not 1980, Gary. People outside the USA discuss technology which is interesting to them.

gagrice · January 2006

I'm sure the Brits and Aussies and Germans are too

See Diesel and hybrids.

We are straying from the battery debate, which is far from over. Give it a couple more years and the complaints will overwhelm you.

kdhspyder · January 2006

So you are saying that Toyota is risking it's reputation in the world by pulling a quick one over on us in telling us that batteries will last the life of the vehicle when you are certain, with supporting facts, that they will not.

Interesting point of view.

Let's see.. gagrice or Toyota? gagrice or Toyota? gagrice or Toyota? Ill have to give Toyota the benefit of the doubt until shown otherwise.

gagrice · January 2006

So you are saying that Toyota is risking it's reputation

You don't think that Toyota is risking a lot with Hybrids? They are betting the batteries will last 10 years or 150k miles. Someone that puts a lot of miles in a short period of time will probably not have a problem. The guy that keeps his cars 15 years and drives 8-12k per year may be in for a big surprise. If the batteries go out after 10 years which is more than likely, the owner will be faced with a big repair bill or a worthless trade-in. Maybe it is a moot point as a lot of other stuff could go bad before the batteries.

midnightcowboy · January 2006

I'm with Gagrice on this one. Batteries will always fail it is just a matter of WHEN not IF

Batteries going , Charge is running down, ............ . . . .

MidCow

gagrice · January 2006

Batteries will always fail it is just a matter of WHEN not IF

Those that think the price will go down are dreaming. I just bought a new battery for my 2 year old Dell laptop. They were $99 two years ago now they are $143.

Someone posted that the Toyota dealer gave him a price of $195 per cell. If all 204 cells go out that is $39,780.

jonpnj · January 2006

Batteries go, turbos go, pistons go, engines go. Nothing lasts forever. I would rather have a car with a 150,000 mile 10 yr warranty than a car with just a 36k/3yr warranty. Wouldn't scare me in the least. Now if they started crapping out at 30,000 miles, then I'd worry. Haven't hear of that.

kernick · January 2006

you: I think since Japan probably has the largest number of hybrids per capita, and they are an information socieity over there,

me: Pretty bad timing with that comment

; you didn't hear that yesterday their stock market was shutdown because it is antiquated and couldn't handle a slight increase in trading volume? http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2006-01-18-tokyo-ap_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

kernick · January 2006

you: Batteries go, turbos go, pistons go, engines go.

me: you're kind of insulting everybody by stating the obvious,; when the point was that people rather have 4 systems instead of 5 systems that fail; especially when system 5 is very expensive.

Also I have seen some posters concerned that the manufacturers are not covering a battery that is weakening slowly. Is it true the warranties don't kick in until the battery is completely dead? I would like to see a manufacturer's statement on the specification(s) on what the condition of the battery is when they will replace the battery under warranty.

jonpnj · January 2006

Kernick: I have a name. You're insulting by calling me YOU. You absolutely have no idea what you even said.

kernick · January 2006

Sorry Jon. I see nothing insulting about YOU, ME, or THEY. What curse or derogatory words are they? Certainly not banned by the FCC.

I think it keeps it pretty clear what statements are from whom. I've been posting like this for years, and it seems to work pretty well. No personal offense, but I will continue with my "style".

kdhspyder · January 2006

You don't think that Toyota is risking a lot with Hybrids?

Actually no I dont think they are putting themselves, the market or anyone at risk financially. Hey I plunked down $22K based on the fact that over the last 15 years and nearly 700,000 miles none of my/our Toyotas has needed anything major ( strutcaps on one Camry and an water pump on another under warranty ). Having been involved on a daily basis with them since 2001 I would have heard from someone who was having major problems. I've sold nearly 100 of them. If there was anything going on out there the customers always want to come back to the origin ( me ) of the problem to let the sales person know.

Nothing.. nada. Seriously. In this market the buyers are doctors, NASA engineers (4), Navy nukes, and a wide variety of very very opinionated people. Nothing. Several have 're-upped'.

But even if there is an upper limit I'm comfortable with it being in the 200K to 300K range which is what I'm looking for out of the Prius. It's what I drove all my other Toyota's. They have won the right in my experience to tell me it's so and I'll believe them.

gagrice · January 2006

But even if there is an upper limit I'm comfortable with it being in the 200K to 300K range

That is a lot of miles. I would be happy getting that out of any car. The most miles I ever put on a vehicle was a Dodge van. It was 10 years old with 107k when I had the engine and transmission overhauled. I sold it 2 months later for exactly what I spent on the overhaul. It is the 10 years I am most concerned about. I may never keep a car that long again. It would be nice to know that it would last that long with no major problems. I will be skeptical until I see the Prius without battery problems at 10 years.

devsienna · January 2006

According to various internet parts sites, the MSRP for the Hybrid battery in a 2005 Prius (which is what I own) is $2995. The discount price from these places are anywhere from $2200 to $2500.

Compare that to the MSRP of $3200 for a new automatic transmission for a 2005 Camry. Or $2800 for an 2005 Avalon automatic transmission.

Obviously labor to install the new battery (or a new transmission) is something to be considered. But it's apparent to me that the replacement cost of the hybrid battery is not nearly as expensive as some have stated.

I browsed the following 2 sites to get prices

www.toyotapartsales.com
and
www.1sttoyotaparts.com

Tiny URLS pointing to the exact pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9nsq5
http://tinyurl.com/9gj2d

gagrice · January 2006

Good reference. Notice the Prius transaxle is $3700 and the exhaust pipe $1200. Sounds like the battery may be the least of a Prius owners worries. We know several owners have had to pay $2000 or more for a new Catalytic Convertor. I think that is the $1200 exhaust pipe listed.

gagrice · March 2006

Then we have the battery pack, that heavy lump of nickel-metal hydride juice boxes that presumably improve fuel efficiency (but not that much, according to our road tests). Although the warranties are for eight years or 100,000 miles, battery replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids, and the Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200.

Moreover, the industry types aren't talking about total battery life. Will they actually last 100,000 miles? How will this affect resale value? Will the systems stay at full efficiency, or will they slowly drain power as they age or operate under heavy use? These are questions that remain to be answered, understanding that storage batteries, be they dry cells in your flashlight or exotic Ni-MHs, all have finite lives and store less power with age.

This brings up an undiscussed issue: At some point, all these hybrid batteries will die and have to be disposed of somewhere, somehow. These are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited in the new hybrid nirvana has yet to be considered, much less resolved.

And speaking of the environmental component (the glamour issue centered on the brave new world of hybrids), a number of EMT and fire crews have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles, openly fearing electrocution or fatal acid burns.

As with the now-defunct electric-car miracle, where it was quickly realized that the national power grid could not energize millions of vehicles without massive expansion of horrorsnuclear generationthe dark side of the hybrid miracle is now beginning to surface.

Hybrids??

stevedebi · March 2006

I'm pretty sure all these items have already been addressed in these forums.

Toyota says it will recycle the batteries, though I haven't seen any details.

The EMT scare was temporary; the high voltage cables are brightly colored and run under the floor, hardly a likely location for "jaws of life" cutters to hit.

The first issue, battery life, is the big question. Toyota maintains that, because they keep the batteries between 20 and 80% charge, the batteries will last "the life of the car". Not too sure myself.

toyolla2 · March 2006

"Then we have the battery pack, that heavy lump of nickel-metal hydride juice boxes that presumably improve fuel efficiency."

Hi Gagrice,
Brock Yates is jumping the gun on non recycling of NiMH batteries, there is probably not enough business to warrant a major recycling plant for them yet. In the meantime I think legislation is needed first to persuade merchandisers to collect used Li-ion and alkaline cells at point of sale like they do in Scandinavia. Established technologies such as lead-acid batteries have in lead the highest recovery rate of any metal, about 80%.(Cominco Ltd).

I am more concerned that battery warranties don't spell out what minimum performance is required to get replacement. I hope that there will be an aftermarket of partially aged batteries to replace packs with a dried out or shorted cell. No-one wants to put $3000+ into a 10 year old vehicle just to take it another five or six more years. I too dislike the notion that some unsuspecting person would suddenly find themself owning a vehicle with a large negative value.
T2

devsienna · March 2006

I don't think it's unreasonable to spend a few grand on a 10-year-old car to give it another 5 or 6 years of life. Of course, this assumes that that is the only major component that will have to be replaced to give it that extension on life. In the case of my '96 RAV4 and my wife's '98 Grand Caravan, I felt it was worth it to spend that kind of money on each car in order to get more life out of them. Even if I only got another year or two out of them, that was still way cheaper on a month-to-month basis than payments on 2 new cars.

As with any car, the age/milleage of the car needs to be taken into account along with those items that typically need to replaced at that age/milleage. And with the case of hybrids, we don't know yet what components will need replacement. I'm pretty confident that the hybrid components will last the length of time that I own the car. And Toyota seems to think so too, based on the length of the warranty for those components. Given that I had my RAV4 for 8.5 years and 147K miles, I'll easily be covered here in California (where the warranty is 10 years/150K miles).

I wonder if these same kinds of concerns came up when new technology like disc brakes, fuel injection, and automatic transmissions started showing up on cars.

gagrice · March 2006

wonder if these same kinds of concerns came up when new technology like disc brakes, fuel injection, and automatic transmissions started showing up on cars.

Sure they did. And the early adopters were many times rewarded with big repair bills when the warranty was up. In the case of the mandatory emissions warranty on the hybrids you can feel a little safer. It would be nice to know that the HSD or IMA portion is covered under that additional warranty. There is about 35% more parts to break in a hybrid than a non-hybrid car. Not all of it is covered under that mandate.

midnightcowboy · March 2006

ARG! The comes a time to replace, Like when my refrigerator was 15 years old and the compressor went out. I asked if I should spned $500 to replace the compressor and the guy said you can replace it and you will still have a 15 year old refrigerator.

Ther have been significant improvements in features, technology and safety in the last 8-10 years. And, even carefully maintained, 8-10 years driving on a car takes its toll and begins transforming it into a junker no matter how much TLC is applied.

The jury is still out on Hbrid components especaily the traction battery. There are already some reports that the batterys haven't delicne enough to warrant free replacement, yet the vehicle owner is beginning to suffer decreased performance and decreased battary charge time.

But again to each his own, we need some pioneers to find out how long it takaes for a hybrid to become a junker ?

Cheers,

MidCow ( Could not make the Hybrid Sacrifice at this time!)

toyolla2 · March 2006

"Given that I had my RAV4 for 8.5 years and 147K miles, I'll easily be covered here in California (where the warranty is 10 years/150K miles). In the case of my '96 RAV4..."

I hate to break the news here, but wouldn't your '96 already be outside of such a warranty ? :=) But go on.

"I don't think it's unreasonable to spend a few grand on a 10-year-old car. Even if I only got another year or two out of them, that was still way cheaper on a month-to-month basis than payments on a new car."

Look Devsienna, and please don't take this personally, but if I was presented with the choice of replacing a $3000+ battery or investing in a similar 10 year old beater (which comes with a good battery) to drive around for a couple of more years then I would have to decide whether I should ever consider myself to be a genuine candidate for buying a new car in the first place. A pending $3000+ spendout on such an age'd vehicle would be my cue to place such money into a new vehicle and start the cycle again. My Corolla went almost 14 yrs and I unloaded rather than invest in replacement of a new muffler that in so doing could compromise an already corroded fuel line.
T2

devsienna · March 2006

"Given that I had my RAV4 for 8.5 years and 147K miles, I'll easily be covered here in California (where the warranty is 10 years/150K miles). In the case of my '96 RAV4..."

I hate to break the news here, but wouldn't your '96 already be outside of such a warranty ? :=) But go on.

Heh. Good point. Good thing I sold the RAV4 last year (got 4 grand for it, too).

"I don't think it's unreasonable to spend a few grand on a 10-year-old car. Even if I only got another year or two out of them, that was still way cheaper on a month-to-month basis than payments on a new car."

Look Devsienna, and please don't take this personally, but if I was presented with the choice of replacing a $3000+ battery or investing in a similar 10 year old beater (which comes with a good battery) to drive around for a couple of more years then I would have to decide whether I should ever consider myself to be a genuine candidate for buying a new car in the first place. A pending $3000+ spendout on such an age'd vehicle would be my cue to place such money into a new vehicle and start the cycle again. My Corolla went almost 14 yrs and I unloaded rather than invest in replacement of a new muffler that in so doing could compromise an already corroded fuel line.

I don't take it personally, and yes, your points are very valid. And more than likely what I'd do, too. But it would partially be determined by how "invested" I was emotionally with the car. And how compromised the other components might be in the car. In the case of the RAV4 and the Grand Caravan, the cars were only about 5 or 6 years old at the time when I plunked the money into them, so they had plenty of life left in them at the time. And at the time, replacing either of them wasn't doable. So we extended their life a little bit more until we could replace them.

I highly doubt that the battery will be 3 grand by the time it actually needs replacing. A lot can happen in the next 7 or 8 years before I have to cross that bridge. Battery technology can improve a lot. The car could get totalled. I could win the lottery and buy a Hummer. :-)

A 3 grand repair bill on a 9 to 10 year old car is gonna make you think twice about keeping the car, whether it's a conventional car, hybrid, or a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

devsienna · March 2006

The jury is still out on Hbrid components especaily the traction battery. There are already some reports that the batterys haven't delicne enough to warrant free replacement, yet the vehicle owner is beginning to suffer decreased performance and decreased battary charge time.

I've seen some of those same anecdotal reports, too. As I recall, they're mostly Honda Insights. The one report I saw about a Toyota Prius indicated that the battery-pack was replaced without question and presumambly sent back to Toyota for a full tear-down and analysis of the failure.

But again to each his own, we need some pioneers to find out how long it takaes for a hybrid to become a junker ?

I'm willing to be a pioneer in this regard. I believe in the company that produced my Prius and I believe in the generous warranty they are providing to gurantee that the hybrid components will last the life of the car or at least as long as I own the car, which will probably be the same amount of time.

If everybody followed the advice of "Don't buy a new model the first year it comes out" or "Wait until other people have bought the car and seen how good it's reliability is" or "The new technology is unproven and you shouldn't buy it" then a lot of advances in cars and technology never would've made it out of infancy and we'd still be driving manual shift cars with carburetors and drum brakes and no emission controls to speak of.

Car makers have gotten a lot better at perfecting the technology before it's released to the public, and they're willing to back it up with better warranties on that new technology. Taking that leap of faith is a lot easier to do these days. Is it perfect? No. Will there be problems? Of course. But I think things are in place to mitigate the problems. Certainly better than they were 30 or 35 years ago when advancements like the automatic transmission, disc brakes and fuel injection came out.

hot_georgia · March 2006

I just had my 60K maintenance done on my 2004 Civic Hybrid last month and asked the dealer to check battery capacity.
The car got a clean bill of health with at least 95% capacity left.
I've never not yet had the IMA do a battery recalibration, but it is a concern as I hope to take my car over 300K miles.

At 60K miles the car runs, drives and performs as if new.

stevedebi · March 2006

This guy ignored some obvious warnings. Still waiting for his battery to arrive from Japan. Warranty replacement.

http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=12&blogid=226&arc- hive=0

gagrice · March 2006

A month and a half is a long time when they have daily flights from Japan.

Toyota and Honda are both gambling that the hybrid batteries will last as long as the government has forced them into guaranteeing it. I will repeat myself. A battery starts decaying the minute it is charged and starts to discharge. It is a calculated risk on how long a given battery will last. I have laptop batteries that are 5 years old and still carry a reasonable charge. I have one Dell battery that barely lasted one year. Plus all batteries are not created equal. You can buy some real cheap replacement batteries that are near worthless. Most not warranted past 90 days. It will be interesting to find out how well these hybrid batteries hold up over 6-7-8-9-10 years. I don't think so good. I believe Toyota is going to have some massive replacement costs in states that require 10 years on the warranty.

devsienna · March 2006

It's a little unrealistic and unfair to compare a laptop battery to that of the battery in the Prius. While the basic elements might be the same: one or more cells in series/parallel to create the appropiate amount of voltage and amperage available), the way the batteries are used/managed in Toyota's hybrid cars are completely different.

What tends to kill most rechargeable batteries these days is deep-discharge/full-charge cycles. Toyota's battery management system is setup to avoid that by keeping the battery in a state of charge that is between 40% and 80% of the total capacity of the battery pack. Given the fact that there are Prius' in Japan that are over 8 years old, I think Toyota already has a good idea of how long the battery packs will last in the cars.

eaa · March 2006

NiMH batteries can last 10 or more years. They are carefully used and not run low on charge so they last very well. Lithium batteries are even better.
I've read where some Prius MiMH battery packs have been tested for over 300,000 miles. These are not the 100 year old lead acid technology used in battery starters on internal combustion vehicles. It's a new world, welcome to the 21st century.

imidazol97 · March 2006

>last 10 or more years

Sooooo, you're saying my cell phone batteries and laptop batteries are a whole new world. They're not your father's lead acid batteries any more.

We'll see.

gagrice · March 2006

Given the fact that there are Prius' in Japan that are over 8 years old

We know that Insight has had several battery failures. Try finding it online. Toyota is not going to advertise their battery failures. Forums like this will be the only record of failures.

john1701a · March 2006

> We know that Insight has had several battery failures.

The manual transmission Insight "assist" hybrid allowed deep discharging of the battery-pack. That behavior is well documented to be a major contributor to shortened battery life.

The "full" hybrid design doesn't allow that. In fact, most owners have never even seen the charge-level below 40 percent. That's a dramatical difference intentionally ignored in the comment above... to make you think all hybrids could suffer the same fact.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME! Quit portraying hybrids as a single design. Also, stop exaggerating by using vague words like "several" and not including any detail (like odometer reading) at all.

JOHN

gagrice · March 2006

That's a dramatical difference intentionally ignored in the comment above.

I don't disagree with you on the charge discharge. I disagree on the life of any battery. 10 years is a long time for any battery to maintain it's capability. There is already some questioning the percentage of charge on their Prius. What is acceptable as a minimum capacity? I hope you are not telling people that the battery will maintain 100% throughout it's life. That would be totally false. All Toyota is doing with their light charge and discharge is prolonging the life of the battery. Which is good for them with a 10 year warranty. I don't think the person that puts 150k miles in 5 years will be the victim of the battery failure. It is the person that puts 50k miles in 10 years with a lot of garage time that will suffer.

Quit portraying hybrids as a single design.

Far from it. I consider the direct engine to generator to electric motor the only TRUE hybrid. Only a battery to start the DIESEL engine. The rest inkluging HSD are overly complex systems, with too many parts that can and have gone bad. I do not ever see HSD as a mainstream solution to our fossil fuel problem. In spite of the less than great batteries available, I still would prefer an all electric vehicle. Very simple and perfect for at least 75% of the driving public. Then of course we would need massive nuclear power plants to power them.

hot_georgia · March 2006

John you wrote:
"Quit portraying hybrids as a single design. Also, stop exaggerating by using vague words like "several" and not including any detail (like odometer reading) at all."

Your love for HSD have blinded you as well...even to print vague blanket false statements against Honda's system.

Honda's don't generally get under 40% discharge either, unless in heavy mountain driving etc in which I also know some Prius drivers who's pack reaches at or near zero.

For you to insinuate that IMA allows deep discharge is like me saying the PSD is prone to failure.
Both are false.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2006

"if I was presented with the choice of replacing a $3000+ battery"

You can buy a Prius HV battery pack for $2,150. That's cheaper than getting a Camry 4-speed automatic transmission for $2,304

Prius HV battery pack has warrenty for 8 years, 100,000 miles (10 years/150k in CAFE states). How about the automatic transmission? How long will it last? Get my point?

Dennis

gagrice · March 2006

Your two links are not working for me. I don't think the battery issue is mileage as much as age. Many people keep cars a long time with low mileage. Our 1990 Lexus LS400 only has 84k miles. If it was a Prius what would the battery condition be after 16 years. Would Lexus still carry the proper battery. We have one poster here that has waited 1 & 1/2 months for an Insight battery from Japan. Batteries have limited shelf life. It looks like each iteration of hybrid uses a different HV battery pack. Will Toyota keep fresh spares of all the different ones. Or will some poorly trained mechanic have to try and figure out which cells are going bad, and replace them? It is not like you can go to Napa and buy a replacement.

bobad · August 2006

I don't think the battery issue is mileage as much as age.

Bingo! You can run up 300,000 in a lab in just a few months. Real testing should be done over time. NiMH batteries start going down hill from aging after 2-3 years, and will suffer a significant number of cell failures afterward. By 5 years, probably 50% of the cells will be shot. NOW,,, maybe there is new NiMH cell technology that I do not know about. Maybe Toyota has found some extra terrestrial battery technology!

wvgasguy · August 2006

Forums like this will be the only record of failures.

So how many failures have there been on Prius and Camry Hybrids?

larsb · August 2006

bobad says, "By 5 years, probably 50% of the cells will be shot."

Amazing that probably up to 40,000 generation one Prius cars in Japan are still going strong on such "shot" battery systems, some of them having been sold as early as December 1997 !!!

And that was 1995-1997 battery technology !!

PS. They had sold 37,000 Japanese Priuses before the first one sold in the USA.

wvgasguy · August 2006

But again to each his own, we need some pioneers to find out how long it takaes for a hybrid to become a junker ?

I guess I'm a good test subject. Many people on here are streching their dollars and hybrid seems like a risk to them. Me, I just want to save gas. I have traded cars every year and a half and lost $6000 to $12000/year in depreciation that I'm so used to getting burned that my thought on the Camry Hybrid is: if I keep it three years and drive 90,000 muiles it saved me two trades. Since it's only 60% of the price of the cars I usually buy then I look at this almost as a throwaway after three years.

If the battery is still good and the car still clean (I take good care of my cars) then I might be able to get 50% of the cost back and THAT will be the best car deal I've ever made.

If I have to junk it (doubtful) then it's no worse than my other automotive adventures and I dirtied up the environment less along the way

The Great Hybrid Battery Debate

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