Audi A4 2005+

mwhitt · November 2005

what dealer in NW NJ, if you don't mind me asking...?

onkloud9 · November 2005

During normal driving, ESP is on, and the button should not be lit. By pressing the button, you are turning ESP off. And yes, when it is on and not lit, ESP will kick in automatically when you lose traction.

Try taking a corner really hard with plenty of gas. If you feel a tire slipping, ESP will kick in, and take away throttle. You will also see the ESP light blink a few times.

Nice car tho, exactly like mine. I'm kinda regretting not gettin Navi... but it is a lease so I'll get it on my next car

Now all you have to do is chip it and debadge it :surprise:

sailoverfuel · November 2005

I will share with u the dealer name and sales guy as soon as they correct a few things.

i was supposed to get the Blue Tooth with the Tech Package that I had...or so I was promised. But when it was the day to pick up the car i was told it had no BT (I have a Treo 650- so that sucks). I am trying to see if I can at least have them install the ph cradel for another phone...as far as I can connect and use the steering wheel to manage my ph hands free...i'll drop the Treo and forget about the Blue Tooth. Should have considered not taking delivery..but as you know knees go weak at the site of ones new car...something THEY are fully aware of.

sailoverfuel · November 2005

Would love to chip...love to...I do not get speeding tickets...no matter what.

Nevertheless, I am afraid of the warranty issue on this 2 year lease. I have read other forums and claims that some products are undetactable but I am still skeptical.

I am also not car/mechanically inclined and do not know were to go.

onkloud9 · November 2005

From what I have heard from others, APR has a system where you can have two or more ecu programs on your cars computer. You can select (using the cruise control button) between stock/91 octane (if your in Cali)/93 octane(everywhere else)/valet/etc. So when you bring your car into the dealer for sevice, you can select the stock program and the dealer has to really investigate in order to figure out that your car is chipped.

Neuspeed apparently uses a similar switching program and can upload the 91/93 octane program onto your ECU without creating extra directories on your comp. So even when the dealer suspects that you have chipped your ECU, they can't trace it (or so Neuspeed claims). REVO also has a similar "directory hiding" technology but they have not released their programming yet.

ECU programming is definatly traceable if they send the ECU to Germany. Lets say that your engine blows up; they will definatly find out. But during routine service, if you don't say anything, they will almost never find out. APR/Neuspeed/REVO uses direct-port programming, instead of taking your ECU out of the car, so your security screws on the ecu will look untampered with. When you return your car at the end of your lease, your obligation to the car is over. If they find out that the ECU is chipped afterwards, there is little they can do to you.

I'm waiting on REVO to release their programming and dyno numbers before I flash my ECU. But it looks like its between Neuspeed or APR for me. Since your from the east coast and have 93 octane fuel available, chipping your car with APR's software will yield 241hp/292lbtq to the crank (85 lbtq!!!). :surprise:

sailoverfuel · November 2005

I hear yah. My concern, and I imagine others may feel the same way, is that if i can switch ECU programs using the cruise control so can they.

I have a mechanic/manager friend who works at Warnok/Chevy and other American cars (a big dealership in the NJ area) and i know they have guys that keep track of these changes and do monitor some forums to keep up with enthusiasts. I would never get a car from them cause they suck but I just worry about their counterparts in AUDI dealerships.

That alternative (APR) is the one I was reading about and the one that I would consider. The car will feel significantly better.

To be honest its a decision based on risk. What to do?

onkloud9 · November 2005

Yea, it sucks how much of a difference tuning can yield between 91 and 93 octane fuel. California gas blows, I miss my 93oct (and 100 oct at Sunoco) fuel when I was in DC.

Honestly though, you should just do it and not mention it at all at the dealer. If they find out that you have, they can't immediately void your warrenty. They have to conclusivly determine that your modification caused the problem (if any). If you were here in San Diego, I could point you in the direction of Audi service folks that are actually cool and don't care about mods. Other than that, have fun with your ride, and if you are so inclined, post about it on Audizine.com. You won't be alone in modding such a fine automobile. :shades:

avvocato · November 2005

How much did you pay in fees and licensing?

aussiem8 · November 2005

Just picked up my first ever Audi 2 days ago. Got the 3.2 A4, Dolphin grey w/ebony, sunroof, premium, technology & cold packages. Just love the car. Looks great and drives great. It seems even faster than when I test drove it. Got a great deal to boot. $400 over invoice. 3 yr lease w/ 0.00165 MF and zero down. I've been following these boards for months and thank all for the great information. It helped tremendously.

sailoverfuel · November 2005

MVC fees...I thinks it was in the 300's area. Licensing??/ No clue. There were no such fees. Off course first month, but that left me with only 23 payments in the 2 year lease...standard procedure.

congratsa4 · November 2005

hiiii

I bought Audi A4, 1.8T, 2005 model. I wanted to know if it is possible to Install apple iPod nano in this car and how much it costs. I bought it from a Dealer in Sacramento, CA.

congrats

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sje3333 · November 2005

Take a look on the audiworld.com forumns. There is some really good info on your question there.

elle121 · November 2005

Where did you get your Audi? Did you get the Nav? Did you order your car or was it in stock?

Thanks ahead of time for the info.

-

Elle

markcincinnati · November 2005

I read the last dozen or so posts this cold Cincinnati Thanksgiving morning; and, I noted the post wondering what the ESP button was for.

Now then, since the car was new, purchased from a North American Audi dealer in good standing (one hopes, one assumes), the dealer should have given a thorough orientation to the new owner.

It is darn near shameful that the dealer would not take the extra time to deliver the car and give a comprehensive overview to the new owner. [What a great way to sell more cars by demonstrating the car to the new owner who may in turn share and show his/her new baby to family, friends and colleagues.]

But not addressing the ESP feature/function with the new owner is a particularly glaring oversight.

Unless ESP has become so prevalent that its presence is "assumed" (like a steering wheel or turn signals) -- and apparently it has NOT become ubiquitous -- this is one feature that deserves (virtually demands) to be explained to the customer.

ESP (and virtually all "electronic stability programs" regardless of their brand) is one of the most significant advances in active/passive safety, control and performance to date.

Moreover, ESP and ABS with Brake Assist (both features found on the Audi A4) are often misunderstood (and to the extent that the driver can effect their performance) and mis-used. At the very least these technologies are easy to "under-use" if you do not know how to use them to their maximum effect.

In less time than it takes to type this, the information about this terrific technology could be imparted by the Audi customer-delivery person (aka the salesperson.) On the other hand, omitting an introduction of this technology has the potential to make using this technology to its greatest effect difficult or impossible.

ESP (and ABS) performs functions that human anatomy and a car's "manual" controls do not permit.

ABS, for instance, has the potential to apply and release the brakes multiple times per second (humans cannot "pump" a brake pedal 18 times per second, ABS can do this -- and more -- without breaking into a sweat.)

ESP has the ability to apply braking force to a single wheel for a second or fraction and a fraction of a second later apply braking force to another wheel. Even with four separate brake pedals this "feat" would be impossible considering that most of us have but two "feat" er feet.

Now, the good news about all this wonderful technology is that the driver basically has to do nothing but drive, since ABS and ESP are basically "always on" always "monitoring" the wheels and yaw rate to determine if a wheel/tire (or more than one) are (is) approaching lock-up or if the steering wheel is directing the car to turn but the car is either under or over steering.

ESP, perhaps more than ABS even, can make a driver more accomplished and competent than his/her skills would normally permit. But there are techniques that can make ABS and ESP more effective, not simply more efficient.

Most drivers when they begin to brake on a low coefficient of friction surface will, at some point, feel (or hear) a pulsing of the brake pedal when the rate of de-acceleration exceeds the "slickness" quotient of the road. The brakes "automatically" pump many times per second to prevent a total lock-up of the brakes and the subsequent sliding of the tires.

The reason for this is simple -- it is impossible to steer a sliding wheel/tire. ABS's primary contribution to vehicle operation is to allow the driver to brake and steer the car on slick surfaces. Without ABS a driver may "slam on the brakes" causing the wheels to stop turning, the tires to slide on the slick surface (or dry surface if the speed was high enough and the brake application forceful enough) and the consequences are the loss of steering control.

ABS may shorten stopping distances -- but under the above circumstances ABS's primary contribution is to allow the car to stop "in a straight line" or be steered during the maneuver.

Generally most drivers mis or under-use ABS by virtue of the fact that they stop applying pressure to the brake pedal as soon as the pulsing sensation is heard or felt.

Maximum braking, generally speaking, does not occur at the onset of this sensation. Rather, maximum braking is only possible when "maximum pressure" is applied (and maintained) by the driver.

Now, knowing that many drivers have not been informed to use ABS to its greatest (and safest) effect, Bosch came up with an enhanced version of ABS (your new A4 has this system.) This is called ABS+Brake Assist. Simply put, this ABS+ attempts to "assist" the driver who is reluctant to increase brake pedal pressure by applying additional pressure "automatically" based on the speed of the brake pedal application, rather than the pedal pressure alone.

The system is a tremendous help in increasing steering control during braking and decreasing stopping distances during "panic" stops.

But, but, but -- it is limited in its intelligence, of course. It is possible to apply the brakes quickly (as in a panic situation) but for a variety of reasons perhaps not quite at the threshold speed required for MAXIMUM brake assistance from the ABS+ "brain."

Hey, at 54, I may not apply my brakes as quickly as I did or could at 34 -- hence I may not achieve maximum stopping power, unless I have been trained (or simply told) to apply the maximum pressure to improve my brakes effectivity (and efficiency.)

The dealer, during delivery, should take a few minutes to inform the new owner about some of the technology that has not yet become as commonplace as seatbelts, airbags, steering wheels and even cruise control.

The A4, with its MMI - like controls, "almost" requires the owner to be certified. I said, almost.

Now, to ESP, which is a technology that builds upon the features and functionality of ABS+. Although it can be "partially" disabled, ESP as it comes on your new A4 cannot be completely turned off, even when you push the ESP button. Moreover, everytime you start the car ESP resets itself even if you had turned it off previously.

Since ESP is NOT YET ubiquitous, it would seem imperative for manufacturers to take another few minutes to explain ESP's functions and how the car feels when ESP intervenes.

Intervenes, yes that it what ESP does -- it intervenes when the ESP brain detects the car is "misbehaving." If you turn the steering wheel to the left and the car continues in a straight line (a condition broadly known as understeer), ESP will intervene and apply the appropriate brake to decrease or eliminate the understeering condition.

Conversely, if the driver turns the wheel slightly and the rear end of the car commences "fish-taliing" (a.k.a., oversteer), ESP again intervenes and applies one or more brakes and/or cuts engine power to attempt to minimize or eliminate this "out of control" situation.

Turning off ESP can be done by a more

markcincinnati · November 2005

Turning off ESP can be done by a more accomplished driver who may "want" to steer with the throttle (i.e., induce some controlled oversteer to force the car's tail to "hang out" during cornering.)

Most of us aren't that good, and most of us should never turn off ESP for this purpose on public roads (snow covered, empty parking lots are another matter entirely and indeed invite the teenager in all us to participate in the act of "spinning donuts.")

If you are monitoring, Audi of America, please consider requiring your dealers to at least offer such education as part of the delivery process. Why this dealer didn't offer your new customer such information during delivery is pitiful and almost shameful. :confuse:

aussiem8 · November 2005

Elle,

Charlotte, NC. Did not get nav because I didn't want it. The engine on my existing car blew so I couldn't wait 3 months for production order, so I had the dealer search other dealers' inventories for the exact car specs I wanted. The only thing I wanted that I couldn't get was the parking sensor.

Your Aussie M8

trome · November 2005

Having owned 4 different 911's over the years I was afraid that anything less would not quite measure up, and for the most part I was right. Yesterday I drove both new IS350 which I could have picked up for $33.5k and the Audi A4 with S line, Tech, and premium packages. I was skeptical of the Audi because it has 100 less horsepower but after driving both I can tell you there is no comparison. The Lexus cabin feels very cramped and at 6'4 this was a problem. In addition the Lexus lacked road feel and felt more like a big Cadillac than a sports sedan. I always thought of Audi as a kind of glorified Volkswagen. In fact, I only drove it because the dealer is just down the street. Upon getting behind the wheel I was thoroughly impressed. Heated seats, separate AC controls for passenger and driver, XM radio and so many little electronic gadgets I could not possibly list them all. I am 6'4 and there is plenty of room both front and rear and the drive and looks of the car are both A+. The interior fit and finish is flawless and of the highest quality and the lease deals simply cannot be beat. In addition the Audi was $200 cheaper to insure per year than the Lexus. It was an easy sell. I recommend the car to anyone. You won't be disappointed. In fact , the sales guy told me that with a simple reprogram you can get the output up to 250hp and 300 lbs torque. It costs $500 but perhaps is worth it.

markcincinnati · November 2005

Yes, no, but.

OK, first I'll assume you got the A4 2.0T (or was it possibly the 3.2?) Sline with a stick shift. The reason I say that is that although I agree with your remarks about the Lexus, I have test driven an auto A4 2.0T, stick A4 2.0T and A4 auto 3.2. Although I have not tested the A4's with the Sline package, I have tested them with both the sport and non-sport suspensions.

This latter data point is important as the A4's I tested had 17" wheels and tires of the all season persuasion. I suspect many Slines come with the summer only, higher performance rubber and in a larger diameter and lower profile, too.

The 2.0T with the very fine automatic transmission would NOT seem to be even close to the Lexus in forward propulsion (and I am pro-Audi, I am NOT a shill for Lexus.) Indeed the very first A4 2.0T I tested had the automatic and after my test drive I wondered what all the fuss was about this new engine, the thing just seemed so underpowered.

Then I got into the A4 2.0T 6speed manual -- and the car felt stronger than an A4 3.0 Sline [stick shift] (previous model year) I had just test driven.

As I recall, the Sline QUATTRO (with either the 2.0T or the 3.2) is available with a stick shift. There is no comparable Lexus IS, period. The Lexus is luxurious, of that there is no doubt. The Lexus is probably adequate in size for the majority of folks (unless the majority has somehow grown a couple of inches vertically.) The Lexus would seem to fall short as a "performance package," however. Nothing (with the possible exception of the Infiniti M's) feels quite like the German cars.

For some, that last phrase may be damning with faint praise. I mean it in its most positive light -- German cars (especially those from Audi and BMW) just have that "certain something" (with respect to the feeling from behind the wheel.)

Now since you mentioned the $500 "reprogram," and you revealed the ability to get the engine to 250hp, I concluded you were talking all along about the 2.0T.

It is true that with a technology that requires NO hardware replacements, the engine management computer can be reprogrammed to drastically increase the torque and moderately increase the hp.

But. . .when doing this you should be aware that you will increase (a little to a lot) a turbo characteristic that many find a little bit disconcerting: turbo lag.

Simply put, the price of these bag fulls of weapons-grade torque ARE possible without any hardware replacement but not without a noticeable delay between "asking and getting."

The stock 2.0T engine almost magically convinces the driver that there is a 6 cylinder under the hood. When you press your right foot down the engine responds virtually instantly, no muss, no fuss, no "pause that refreshes."

The reprogrammed engine is capable of making the driver wonder if there just not might be a V8 under the hood -- but, when the driver presses down on the accelerator in a reprogrammed A4 2.0T, there will be a slight "pause" between issuing the command and its execution.

Some folks do not like the pause followed by the huge rush and split-second delayed "jack-rabbbit" start. Some folks LOVE IT! I "chipped" (since there was no re-programming capability in 2000) my 1.8T Audi TT quattro coupe. What a rush, but that sweeeeet second gear acceleration that came so naturally, so progressively with the standard chip became a slight stutter followed by a violent (yet pleasing) lurch with the reprogrammed version.

Then you have the issue of shall we say the "unpopularity" of the chip with the warranty wonks back at Audi USA headquarters. Although the chips or re-programs in "stage I" clothes are hardly likely to cause you to require a warranty claim, there is at least a small chance that the great grantor of cost forgiveness (the warranty claims authorization manager) will find a reason to disallow your warranty claim if it is discovered that your stock 2.0T has been reprogrammed (and it IS possible to discover this re-programming if Audi really wants to analyze the failure, badly enough.)

So, my advice -- get the Sline A4 2.0T with a stick shift and love it. If you must have the A4 Sline with an automatic for whatever legitimate reason (and so long as it is your money, almost any reason would be legitimate), consider getting the A4 3.2 Sline with the auto and drive and love it "as is."

The recent posts (all over the Internet) about the manufacturers cracking down (and I think mostly unwarranted, no pun intended) on those folks who reprogram their turbo-charged engines would give me pause.

The 2.0T A4 Sline with the stick shift and all the nice options you mentioned does a great job of keeping up with (and in many cases passing) the competition's 6 cylinder offerings. The 2.0T sips gas, too.

Before you consider the $500 quick'n'dirty (but quite effective) upgrade, consider a full out series of test drives of both the Sline A4 offerings (2.0T & 3.2) in stick and auto transmission guise.

:shades:

trome · November 2005

Sorry to have been so vague. Yes, I did end up leasing the Sline 2.0t 6 spd. It is quite a ride as is and based on your information I dont' think I will opt for the reprogram. Besides, it is only a 2yr lease. I am only sorry I never tried Audi before. Granted, I would never but an Audi because they depreciate so horribly and I have never been a fan of leasing, however, the high residuals and low money factors being offered make it too good to pass up. Of course what I really want is the new Cayman but that wouldn't be nearly as practical.

trome · November 2005

What is the visual difference between the S line bumpers and the non S line? anyone?

markcincinnati · November 2005

Look on Audi's website.

Generally, think "ground effects."

onkloud9 · November 2005

In a nutshell, the s-line bumpers are the S4's bumpers. Same trunk, same color matched rear diffuser, same front bumper cover, and same grill. The only difference on the exterior between the S4 and the A4 s-line are the badges (obviously), the wheels/tires, and the door fins. The door fins on the S4 are slighly larger and protrude out more.

And commenting on the remark about chipping your car. PLEASE do some research before you go out and do this. APR/Neuspeed/REVO are currently the most researched/tested/dyno proven thus far with the 2.0 B7 A4's (2005.5-2006). Compare what the dyno number increases are, compare prices, even talk to folks on enthusiast forums about these before jumping on the chipping bandwagon. For example, REVO just put out their ECU tuning package ($500 from Eurocode, Huntington Beach CA). The crappy thing about this package is that you need to also purchase a handheld SPS (Serial Port Switch, $200 for the SPS1 which has 2 programs: stock/performance, $350 for the SPS3, which can manually change boost and timing along several points of your tach). The cool thing about the SPS is that you can download your performance code and upload your stock code when you bring it into the dealer, rendering dealer's effort to detect the program futile (no trace of extra folder or files).

Just my 2cents.

wco81 · November 2005

Does the 2006 models not have standard stereos with aux port in the front? Like the BMWs and the Lexus IS models?

The audiworld .com discussions allude to needing the Nav to get some more audio features. Surely you don't have to buy the Nav to get a simple axu port?

reasanaii · December 2005

Hello, I drive a 2005.5 A4 and just got my 5k service on Monday. Yesterday, there was smoke coming out of both exhausts and under the hood so I went to the service center again to check out. I waited there for 1-2 hours and they told me that the mechanic guy somehow "OVER-FILLED" the oil which led to leakage.
I'm wondering if the car's going to be okay or not.
And I'm very disappointed at Audi's service.

markcincinnati · December 2005

Overfilling, to say the least, is NOT a good thing.

I would immediately arrange for a consultation with the Dealer Service Manager & somehow get some communication (using certified mail or some other proof of delivery service) to an Audi Regional Ombudsman or Audi Employee in Warranty and Service.

On the other hand, mistakes happen and the warranty coverage Audi offers is outstanding.

There are places all over the WWW to determine the possible "side effects" (if any) of such a mistake.

Take a deep breath -- it may be nothing. Cover thy butt is the most prudent QND response I can come up with.

Cover Thy Butt Guidelines:

Phone calls don't count. Letters sent via first class mail don't count. emails may or may not count.

Documentation that can be proven as to from and to and date is your friend.

edwardsf · December 2005

While you undoubtedly provide great advice and well written posts, you seem to really, really hate automatics. I drove the 1.8 AT a year ago and then recently test drove a 2.0T - extensively. The 2.0T is a HUGE improvement over the 1.8. While I am sure the AT is not as quick as the MT, I think your following language is biased. "Indeed the very first A4 2.0T I tested had the automatic and after my test drive I wondered what all the fuss was about this new engine, the thing just seemed so underpowered." There is good reason for all the fuss. The engine has much more torque at all bands and it has reduced turbo lag considerably. Also the suspension is much tighter and comfortable than the 1.8T.

Most newer cars are better than their predesessors but this model really impressed me. I cannot drive an MT b/c of shoulder problems. But I do remember the difference between AT and MT. My 1984 4000 MT was a very fun car. My 1989 Saab 900T MT was rougher but more responsive than my 1997 900T AT. But that does not mean the 1997 Saab or 2006 A4 are also not sporty, responsive, fun cars.

markcincinnati · December 2005

The "devil is in the details" or "idle hands are the devil's phone-booth" or other pithy prose.

You are right, I do rail (mostly against) about automatic transmissions. Simultaneously, I have a 6 month old 2005 A6 3.2 -- only comes with a 6 speed automatic.

My wife was able once again to "beat the reaper" by going with a 2005 BMW X3 3.0 with the 6sp manual. I have owned, since 1997's MY an Audi A8, A6 2.8, A6 4.2, A6 4.2 sport, allroad 6spd and my current A6.

I went with the allroad overwhelmingly for the reason it was a full-size AWD car that could be had with a manual transmission. The automatics through that car were not all that much fun for the reason dubbed "tip" lag.

N.B. - This lag was not merely an Audi trait.

I grew to learn to compensate for the auto-trans in my second V8 equipped A6 (a 2001.) And, whenever my Audi was at the dealer for service, I was often provided with an Audi "loaner" car -- generally the loaner was a current MY A4 1.8T automatic with Premium Package.

Simultaneously, three of my co workers purchased A4's -- all with the 170HP 1.8T and all with manual transmissions.

This group of co workers had all attended the Audi Germany/Austria winter driving school together at least once -- we were "into" cars, more specifically into Audis.

From time to time my dealer principal would ask me if I would like to drive "the new S4 or S6," and a few times my loaner cars were S4's and once or twice even a current model year A8.

After nearly 30 cars since 1977 between my wife, my company cars and my own daily driver, I have had the ability to either extensively own, drive or have access to many Audis, two BMW's (not including the loaner BMW's) and two VW Passat's and one Jetta.

Over and over again, I would chat with my dealer with whom I had become great friends and he would tell me "as each year passed" the percentage of autos vs manuals that were sold. For years the manual transmission version sold well over 50% (often over 75%) of the total number of cars sold at his dealership (some 500 Audi cars annually, and a smaller number of Porsches.)

As each automatic came out it did improve over the previous generation at least somewhat. But to this day, when driving the auto vs the stick of a given Audi, the stick feels tighter, easier to control and it provides greater small of the back pressure under earnest acceleration. And, to this day, the number of people who will consider a stick continues to (apparently) decrease.

Yet, other than reasons such as the one you cite for not being able to comfortably drive a stick, most people that I have interacted with on this subject decry the lack of an available manual (from Audi.)

BMW outsells Audi by what? 3 to 1 in the US? And BMW's most popular models offer either stick or auto.

Driving these cars from Audi and BMW back to back with the same engine and both transmissions is almost a Jeckyl and Hyde experience -- the A4 1.8T in a B6 with the SLine option package and the 6spd manual "almost" made me wonder why there was a 3.0 V6, it was so good.

And, my wife's 1.8T TT @225HP made me wonder what the A4 would have been like with such an engine. Of course, as I recall, the new 2.0T has about the same torque as the old HP 1.8T even though it has less horsepower.

The differences between a previous generation A4 with the stick and the current gen with the auto did indeed make me wonder what all the fuss was about with respect to the new 2.0T, it just seemed the transmission made the new A4 less spirited than the previous gen when equipped as I outlined.

The new A4 2.0T with the manual would be my choice over the 3.2 with the auto. This is entirely personal and in no way should suggest the auto version (for whatever reason) is inferior. However, the auto version of the 2.0T and the 3.2 are "less eager" than their manual counterparts.

It is your money and your reasons even if they would be "because" are good enough for me.

I lament the loss of choice is another theme you should be picking up here.

As of 10,000 miles, I have mellowed (for good reason) on my opinion of the A6 3.2's tiptronic.

I had been able to tolerate and mostly not miss the manual version by running my A6 in "S" mode (delayed upshifts and quicker downshifts and the engine almost always seems to be in its torque sweet spot) largely because it would actually shift to first gear without fully coming to a stop -- thereby almost eliminating tip lag (in "S" mode.)

From time to time I pull the lever back into "D" and until very recently, it always reminded me that I wish I had gone all the way to "S" -- but, at 10,000 miles even in "D" the transmission seems to have learned (mostly) to not demonstrate lag. In "S" mode the transmission does, now, a fair impression of mind reading.

Net: this means that I am less unimpressed by the 6spd tip than I used to be -- and, to underscore the point, I think I am moving the transmission into a class I would call "adequate."

No other previous 5 spd tip could match this current version's abilities to remain in gear as if I had a row my own and shift up AND down in a fair imitation of a stick.

I am, however, convinced that with a stick shift, my A6 would be about a 1/2 second quicker in "real world" conditions -- this would still make the manual a big draw.

I just wish we had the choice, is a theme, perhaps THE theme I would like you to take away.

It is possible, although unlikely, that given a choice I would still choose the auto. Given what I know about the number of folks who actually agree with me with respect to manual transmissions (i.e., I am a screaming voice in the wilderness), I know manuals are probably a dying breed.

But I also know that Audi has the excellent DSG manual-auto and BMW has a very good SMG manual-auto in the wings.

I guess I would probably like to be offered, if we must go clutchless, such transmissions in the future.

And, just because I find the 2.0T A4 auto (quattro) less inspiring in no way means I would think your car, thusly equipped, would be any less than a great choice and a great car.

Someone or hopefully many "someone's" has/have to carry the torch for manual transmissions.

If I could just get folks to test drive both versions, I could die a happy man (not that I am planning on dying any time soon.) :shades:

donthegreek · December 2005

markcincinnati:
Hey Mark...Enjoy your posts!!

Question for you. I've never been lucky enough to afford an Audi....But like you before I die, I sure would like to buy one.Been thinking maybe I might be able to get a Certified A4 Q (The new 2.0 version)or an A3....

Anyway...I'm told by so many people that they can be very trouble some...and the closest dealer is about 1.3 hrs away..should I go for it anyway???
Thanks for your input.
don

markcincinnati · December 2005

My experience is that Audis are very well built -- however, Audis and BMW's and Mercedes are breathtakingly expensive to repair out of the warranty period.

A new Audi lease is today a subvented transaction and, IMHO, less money when the risk is factored in, than a used one.

Of course this is a cause for celebration because used ones have really come down in price to compete with new ones and the beat goes on.

A new 2006 A4 with a couple of options can be had for really low payments for 24 months these days.

And, unless you NEED a back seat, the A3 2.0T is a screaming bargain and is everything the A4 is excluding the back seat (which is cramped.)

My current A6 is a great car, I do enjoy it.

I rarely have more than one person in the car besides myself.

It is, frankly, wasteful under these conditions, much as I love it.

An A4 Sline with the nav system would be both prudent AND a hell of a lot of fun.

Not that I regret the A6 mind you.

When I win the lottery, the S8 would be my present to myself -- talk about wasteful.

Examine the used vs new -- if you go used, make certain it is a CPO'd car.

shipo · December 2005

"And, unless you NEED a back seat, the A3 2.0T is a screaming bargain and is everything the A4 is excluding the back seat (which is cramped.)"

Hmmm, interesting. I'm currently shopping both of these cars (A4 2.0T and A3 2.0T), and my experience is just the reverse. I'm a tall 5' 8" (or is that a short 5' 9"), and when I adjust the driver's seat to that perfect sweet spot for the clutch engagement and then climb into the back seat, I find that I am more comfortable and have more leg room in the A3. True the A4 has a little more width and headroom (barely in both cases), but the difference in leg room seems significant enough to trump both of the A4's rear seat advantages. Could it be that the A3 is actually bigger back there and that is why Audi has never published the measurements for the rear seat passengers?

FWIW, with the front seat all of the way to the rear stops, there is no question that the A4 has more leg room, but in my mind at least, that is not a valid comparison.

Best Regards,
Shipo

skid0 · December 2005

I had to join Edmunds to reply to Marks anti-auto (mostly) post.

The A4 B7 is the *only* car I've ever driven (in 35 years) that had an auto I could live with. I liked it enough that I bought a 2006 w/tiptronic.

What I hated about all the others was the lack of lockup, or the small throttle amounts that took the auto out of lockup. I hated that they all downshifted too soon with added throttle. That there was no instant acceleration when the throttle was pressed a bit more. That they all over-revved the engine before upshifting, at small throttle openings.

The B7 is the first auto to shift like I do in a manual-it goes into lockup right away, then upshifts as low as 1800 rpm. This gives great mileage-up to 29.7 mp(US)g in combined city/mostly country 2-lane back-and-forth-to-work.

If I want to, tiptronic mode lets me select the gear manually. The downshifts are quicker and smoother than I can usually manage (even double-clutching), and the TBW blips the rpm to match engine speed to road speed.

The only criticism of tip mode is that upshifts take 1/2 second to initiate under some circumstances.

I, too, dislike that D mode stays in second gear unless the car comes to a *complete* stop. In aggressive urban driving, that takes alot of accel away. But I know that Audi did that so all those 'average' drivers out there didn't get caught by the turbo coming on boost. Tip mode takes care of that, though.

There's something like 1/3 second difference in 0-60 mph with stick, but I wonder if doing a 'brake stand' eliminates that. It sure lets the turbo build up boost, and the car launches away from stops quite hard.

nyccarguy · December 2005

I tried to "build my own" A4 2.0T on the Audi website. Which wheels are standard? Which wheels come with the Sport Package? Do you have to choose a specific color for the S-Line package?

markcincinnati · December 2005

The 6spd tip in my 2005 A6 3.2 is the best auto I have ever driven and/or owned. It is still NOT quite up to the control, fun and performance of a 6spd manual.

Yet, I find myself able to defend it a bit more easily every day. It is almost able to read my mind -- especially in S mode.

My current Audi is NOT a turbo -- but my experience previously is that the 5spd tips were not all that compatible with the turo engines, even though the automatic seemed to mask the turbo lag (which in Audis is minimal) -- but the Audi 5spd tip really demonstrated tip lag more than any lag that was associated with the engine.

Man, my three Audi 4.2 V8 equipped cars "coulda, woulda, shoulda" been even better had they not been inflicted with their lag ridden transmissions (even though I learned to adapt to their 'adaptations' fairly handily.)

I think overall we are not in violent agreement, but we are not that far off either.

I rarely use tip mode, opting instead to mostly enjoy "S" mode's ability to ape [mostly] my intentions if not exactly my actions. I actually thought today that the "S" mode might even be able to better my intentions.

Then that thought passed. :shades:

wco81 · December 2005

Well test drove an A4 2.0T CVT yesterday. Has plenty of acceleration for me. I was getting up to 80 without even trying and would have had to weave in the freeway to go higher. Break pedal seemed really sensitive. Slightest pressure made the car stop pretty hard. If I applied the same kind of pressure as in my car, the thing would have screeched hard and left skid marks.

A couple of things which make me hesitant about the car itself. Feels a bit cramped, with the headliner just above my head. Back seat, my knees aren't against the front seat like the Lexus IS is suppose to be (I'm 5-8 to 5-9) but again, feels a bit clausterphobic with the walls and ceiling right around you.

It's not noisy but on the freeway, hear more road noise than my folks' Lexus ES. Also the interior had hard dash plastics and the leather is thick, compared to the softer leather in the Lexus. Maybe it lasts longer that way and maybe that means firmer seat support.

No aux port for the iPod and the center console storage is kind of shallow. One thing I forgot to check for is whether it has a storage compartment for sunglasses. I know it sounds trivial but for the kind of money we're talking about, the more conveniences the better.

Probably would not have looked at the car except for the lease deal. Prefer to buy but the legendary German repair costs and reliability problems make me stay away from buying a German car. May still lease but will have to test drive others.

skid0 · December 2005

Hi, Mark.

By 'tip lag', do you mean lag before down/up shifting? With my previous Eagle Talon, and my current Subaru Outback, I couldn't down/up shift any quicker. The one exception is that tip mode sometimes delays upshifts (very infuriating the 1-3% of the time it happens).

I've read about throttle-by-wire lag, but never experienced that at all.

As far as turbo lag, the Talon had it. In comparison, there's none in the A4. And there's triple the torque at 2000 rpm compared to either the Talon or Outback. Engine and tranny perf is SO much better in the A4 than any of my previous cars that I just cannot complain about them.

(The steering and brake response aren't what I like, tho...)

I don't like 'S' mode, the engine just revs too much for me to resist upshifting

. I'm really liking tip mode. If the car had paddles, I'd probably use tip 100% of the time. ('course, that'd ruin the gas mileage. I had started driving quite agressively before I put the A4 away for the winter!)

What do you think of the ESP? My last drive in the A4 was in 1 inch of snow. Since I'd been riding cycles and racing with the local car club in long-ago winters, I really like power sliding. When I turned off ESP, I nearly lost control. Was no fun at all... sigh. The Subie's LSD makes power slides real easy...

trome · December 2005

To the 5'9 guy to said the headliner was "near his head", I am 6'4 and I have plenty of headroom.. at least 3 inches to spare. Try adjusting the seats down.

wco81 · December 2005

That was me. Yeah maybe the seats weren't optimal. I just moved it up a bit and reclined it.

I drove one with the sunroof. You can't seem to buy one wihtout the Sunroof package unless you order one from the factory.

But even the back seat, the ceiling was right there.

edwardsf · December 2005

WCO, I am also confused about your opinion on headroom. I am 6-2, with a long torso and have obsessed on this issue. I have found VERY few cars that have either enough headroom or a decent field of view. Most cars have such a rakish roof that all one sees is the visor. The A4 is THE best small sports sedan out there for headroom and legroom for a tall guy. The C230 is close and no other car, including the supposedly larger TL and G35, have as much room as the A4. Back seat? Sorry, but it is not a factor for me. I have no kids and no clients that get in my car. If it were, I would not get a small sports sedan.

edwardsf · December 2005

So if I can summarize by quoting your quite poetic post,

"However, the auto version of the 2.0T and the 3.2 are "less eager" than their manual counterparts."

Okay. So "underpowered" is maybe just poetic license....

Now, a question. I ordered an A4 instead of getting one off the lot mainly based on your previous exhortations to get the exact car I wanted. So I did order one on 11/4. It is to be built 12/12. Shipped early January. Reach Long Beach 1/25. Get the to the dealer around 2/4. So that is 3 months. Is that normal? Will it actually be later in the year due to holidays? (Love those German 7 week holidays!). Right now, since I will miss much of the winter where I can use the Quattro, I am tempted to cancel and just grab one with options I don't want. My waiting pleasure is not as fun as my own impatience is driving me crazy!

wco81 · December 2005

Well I tried the backseat after the test drive just because I'm also considering the Lexus IS and people were complaining about the backseat in that car.

Lets put it this way, I have an old Acura Integra with sunroof and it felt about the same. Actually a bit worse because on my car, I reclined the seat back a bit to give myself headroom.

But for this test drive, I didn't want to recline back and relax. I wanted to be alert so I kept it upright.

I guess I was hoping for something more like a mid-size or compact rather than the subcompact which my car is. And which the A4 feels like.

It's not a big strike against it.

BTW, I couldn't figure out how to change the computer readout to display the MPG. Does the A4 have such features?

markcincinnati · December 2005

I think 9 - 14 weeks is a normal lead time. The time of year seems to matter more during the MY change in June.

I still feel waiting for your exact configuration has merit.

It is, as you well know, not my money.

Do what you want even if it is for some impulse -- this is hardly an illegal, immoral or fattening activity.

Listen first though to Meatloaf's Rhapsody by the Dashboard Lights before you cancel your order (god I'm old.)

:shades:

markcincinnati · December 2005

Tip[tronic]-lag:

a characteristic of several ZF (as I recall) based manu-matic transmissions (probably programmed by the various auto mfg's who buy these transmissions in an effort to improve gas mileage) to delay downshifting to the next lowest gear therefore often remaining in a gear that is one gear too high for the current torque of the engine so attached (too high for anything other than painfully slow re-acceleration.)

In practice, this means that placing the car with the tip transmission in "D" and driving to normal road speeds and then slowing down for a traffic light that at the moment you begin slowing is red only to have the light turn green while the car retains some (very slow) forward momentum.

The car is in 2nd gear, the RPM's although above "stall speed" are sufficiently below the torque sweet spot for "normal or spirited" acceleration. The light turns green, the driver presses the accelerator pedal moderately and the car "barely" begins to accelerate -- the driver compensates by pressing the accelerator pedal more deeply.

The engine-transmission program detecting the driver has called for some rather more urgent acceleration downshifts the transmission and when coupled with the then current depression of the accelerator pedal causes what feels to the driver like:

braking, slowing, rolling and slowing, followed by depressing the accelerator followed by a modest uptick of speed followed by a further press of the accelerator followed by a LEAP, or LUNGE as the car downshifts and the engine with a 2/3 or 3/4 throttle races to its redline.

The time from the slowing to the lurching is called in an Audi "tip lag" in a BMW "step lag" and so on. From a duration standpoint, this process, this cycle takes from 1/3 to 1 2/3rd's of a second. I have heard of it taking 2 seconds, but that seems an eternity -- 1/2 second is more in line, generally not over 3/4ths of a second for this whole ballet move to happen.

Tiptronic transmissions were, I believe, first offered in Porsches, then Audis.

Tiptronics are adaptive transmissions and apparently have fairly broad software control capabilities.

In "D" mode a tiptronic is determined, really determined to upshift as soon as possible to keep the engine RPM's as low as possible. Further, in "D" mode, downshifts happen as late as possible for the same purpose.

When programmed by the driver via the "S" mode, the transmission is still fully automatic but the shifts feel "crisp" (or more crisp) as each gear is held a bit longer before upshift and the auto downshifts happen sooner.

In my personal experience, D is frustrating and maybe potentially dangerous if the driver does not adapt to the behavior of the transmission. S more closely approximates the manual (more solid, less smooth) experience.

To each his own.

The Audi 6 spd tip is about the best manumatic adaptation to date (it would be easy to imagine Mercedes 7spd version is even better.) Currently Audi and BMW both use "something" tronic transmissions (6spds) in their near lux and lux sedans.

A fully automatic-manual (it has automatic clutch or clutches) transmission (mostly) is offered by Audi and BMW -- Audi calls theirs DSG and BMW dubbed theirs SMG.

The Audi version has two automatic clutches. Some think the DSG and SMG are THE best auto trans avail that can be afforded by mere mortals.

I would love to have the choice of full auto, DSG or full manual.

Not gonna happen, I'd wager.

=====

ESP, ABS+brake assist are MUST have technologies.

Don't even consider a car without these driving assists.

Audis can be made to power slide (quattros) without the ESP on.

I rarely turn ESP off though -- I only do this when I am "playing in the snow" (doing donuts) in an abandoned but snow-covered parking lot with lots of room in all directions.

Drive it like you live.

:shades:

skid0 · December 2005

Tip[tronic]-lag:

a characteristic of several ZF (as I recall) based manu-matic transmissions (probably programmed by the various auto mfg's who buy these transmissions in an effort to improve gas mileage) to delay downshifting to the next lowest gear therefore often remaining in a gear that is one gear too high for the current torque of the engine so attached (too high for anything other than painfully slow re-acceleration.)
----------------------------------------------
(Thanks for the excellent explanation, Mark.)

This is *so* funny! On my test drive, this feature (not immediately downshifting) is what SOLD me on the A4!

When I drive a manual, I let the engine lug. I seldom need instant, full power. Even in my slowest car, the Outback, I can easily keep up in rush-hour crazyness.

I absolutely *hate* the usual auto behavior of jumping out of lockup at the slightest touch of throttle. The 2005+ A4's don't do that. You just get great (for a 4 cylinder) accel.

The A4 has SO much torque, even at 1800 rpm, that I don't feel the need for more power. Don't misunderstand-I go WOT quite often on my long drive home from work. But that's in the middle of nowhere, with no traffic for miles.

onkloud9 · December 2005

The standard wheels are 16" on the 2.0T (Far right in the picture below), 17" on the 3.2 (2nd from the left), and the 18" S-line wheels are on the far left.

You can order the S-line package with any exterior color. The only INTERIOR color you can get is Ebony.

nyccarguy · December 2005

Those 18s are sweet! I wonder why I can't pick the S-Line Package on the audi website????????

onkloud9 · December 2005

Make sure you pick the leather interior and premium pack. You need those are two options before choosing s-line.

trf1222 · December 2005

My dad just picked up his 2006 A4 2.0T Quattro with 6 speed manual. The car has the sunroof package and the premium package. He immediately remarked that he can't seem to display the car's average fuel economy on the screen between the tachometer and speedometer. My 2001 A4 2.8 has this feature, as did my dad's previous car (a 2001 Passat) as standard equipment. Is he missing something? He's not very technologically savvy so maybe if they redid the computer from what we're used to on the Passat and 2001 A4, he's just not getting it. But that trip computer is a big feature for him as he drives the car on long trips alot and likes to see what sort of miles per gallon he's averaging.
I'd appreciate any help you can give, Thanks.

jmg001 · December 2005

I bought a 2005 A4 this past February. I have driven standard cars 23 years and have never had to replace a clutch. This includes my 1995 Acura Integra with 176,000 miles on it, which I still own and use. The reason I provided the background is that my clutch went at 15,400 Miles, while I was traveling in Massachusetts. I had to rent a car to get home to CT and my car will be in the Boston area for the next couple of weeks. The car drove normal one day and the next morning when I went to pick it up at the car valet their was a very strong obnoxious burning smell, a vibration / rattling sound underneath the car and the stick shift was difficult to work with. I just got the car to local dealership when the clutch went. Has anyone heard of this before. The gas gage stopped working properly about a month after buying the car and I believe it is happening again. :lemon: ??

byronwalter · December 2005

What does he see between the tach & speedo? He did find the little button on the bottom of the wiper stalk that toggles between current trip mileage and cumulative mileage?

And I'm sure that he has discovered the rocker switch on the end of the stalk...

Byron - manual and proud of it :P

trf1222 · December 2005

Evidently it's not there anymore. They changed it for 2006 and its now part of an 1800 dollar package and comes with a color screen. Wahoo. He's really disappointed and is thinking of returning the car after 1 day with it. They never told him anything, we always just assumed the car would have it considering a 2001 Passat GLS base model would come with it standard. What a shame.

Audi A4 2005+

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