Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

1234579

Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Don't waste your time trying to convince Lars that diesel is good. Lars is a nice guy, but his mindly is firmly set against diesel. Even the new SULEV/PZEV diesel from Ford, he considers "dirty" despite the fact it's just as clean as a Civic Hybrid. So there's no point wasting your time or precious board space trying to convince him."..

     

    I would also agree!

     

    .."Ha! Leaded fuel in a Civic Hybrid? That would immediately kill the catalyst & plummet it from a SULEV to an extremely dirty vehicle & it would stop passing emissions tests.

      

    But I see your point. Diesels are only as good as the dirty fuel they run on. They will vastly improve when "clean sulfur-free diesel" is introduced in 2006."...

      

    troy

     

    Especially in light of the forthcoming 2006 standards, !!I also would agree! A strawman argument about #2 diesel is like arguing about going back to leaded regular,!!?? Would a leaded regular Honda hybrid beat a TDI on current #2 diesel? :) Let alone the 2006 standards? In all cases, strictly a strawman argument!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    To keep this on topic, which car RIGHT NOW in the USA is cleaner, the Jetta TDI or the HCH?

     

    What E-Troy is talking about is this statement:

     

    "Diesel exhaust in PZEV amounts is dirtier than gasoline exhaust in PZEV amounts."

     

    and that statement is ABSOLUTELY true because of the known and scientifically proven harmful effects of diesel exhaust.

     

    Gasoline exhaust is also carcinogenic, but when you compare the two, as has been done in HUNDREDS of studies in the USA and Abroad,

     

    Not one single study EVER has said gasoline exhaust is WORSE for the human body than diesel exhaust. They have all shown the opposite in comparison studies, and studies on diesel damage alone show diesel exhaust is awful for humans and animals to ingest..

     

    I love all you diesel fans, you keep the fires burning in debates like this, but anyone with the ability to read can plainly see that diesel exhaust is more dangerous than gasoline exhaust. Even in comparable small amounts.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "To keep this on topic, which car RIGHT NOW in the USA is cleaner, the Jetta TDI or the HCH?"

     

    Depends where you buy it. In California with low-sulfur gasoline, the Civic Hybrid is cleaner. Elsewhere, it's a dead heat. Both the Jetta & Civic are equally clean.

     

    .

     

    And gasoline soot is FAR worse. Source: Many, many articles from Science News. Here's one "Gasoline particulates may trigger heart attacks (11/13/2004)".

     

    Diesel soot can cause lung cancer, but gasoline soot is smaller and can enter the human body's arteries/lymph nodes. Gasoline soot can cause BOTH lung cancer & cardiovascular disease/heart attacks. Gasoline soot is worse.

     

    troy
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Big Whoop....that's one small piece of the overall health issue.

     

    When you take the carcinogens into account OVERALL, the DIEsel is far more dangerous.

     

    Quote E-Troy:-"both the Jetta and Civic are equally clean."

     

    There are varying degrees of UNTRUE statements, and this is at the RED end.

     

    The EPA Green Car ratings has the Civic #2 behind the Prius, and the Jetta is WAY WAY down the list.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Depends where you buy it. In California with low-sulfur gasoline, the Civic Hybrid is cleaner. Elsewhere, it's a dead heat. Both the Jetta & Civic are equally clean.

     

    That is a fact. The HCH in the 45 non CARB states is rated a 6 on EPA emissions. The newest VW TDI is rated a 6 even with 500 PPM sulfur diesel. So a person running B20 in a new VW Jetta TDI will be cleaner than the HCH in most of the USA. Non CARB gas is still very high in Sulfur. Which is what causes most of the dangerous soot. That is why the TDI is legal in those states. It is just as clean as a large portion of the gas cars.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    RIGHT NOW, TODAY, the HCH is cleaner than the Jetta.

     

    Yada yada yada about the "low sulfur" diesel and all that. We'll talk about that when it is a REALITY in the USA.

     

    And the "rating" you are talking about is not the "green score" which takes into account more variables.

     

    And yet again, let me reiterate: in equal amounts, DIEsel exhaust is STILL more dangerous than gasoline exhaust. That's not my opinion, or a guess, it's scientific fact proven in hundreds of studies.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The EPA Green Car ratings has the Civic #2 behind the Prius, and the Jetta is WAY WAY down the list.

     

    You need to look under the hood to see if you have a SULEV II or Bin 9 rating. There is a higher charge for a SULEV II rated HCH plus a lower mileage rating. Yours may be polluting as much as a VW TDI and you did not even know it.

     

    This lists the 8 possible configurations on the Civic Hybrid.

     

    http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-HONDA-CivicHybrid-05.htm
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    I don't want to shut this discussion down. It can be valuable. However - the personal snipes and attacks need to stop. Let's take it easy - it's Friday.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Here is a recient writeup about Diesels that speaks of some studies by General Motors, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and the University of Alberta in Canada. Basically, the Diesel looks to be winner. (If not today, in the very near future)

     
    I guess the debate in the forum is being answered by scientific well-to-wheel studies. When considering ALL the energy consumption, (Gasoline requires refining) science is showing us that even the complicated technology of the hybreds are not match for Roudulph Diesel's engine that was ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to run on veggie oil. (Not many folks know that was Roudolph's intention)

     

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/126689- - 1.html
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    I'll bet someone could find a very similar magazine article from 10-20 years ago.

     

    "science is showing us that even the complicated technology of the hybreds are not match"

     

    I've averaged about 60MPG in my HCH. Do any TDI's exceed that?

    Why should I settle for 45 or 50?

     
    If diesels are so much simpler, why are they plagued with so much trouble?


    Anyone can do a Google search on diesel car problems and get pages & pages of links.

    I'm not sure diesel is so much simpler with its additional control units, sensors, tanks, multiple control valves, resevors, compressors, blowers, and elaborate exhaust systems.

     

    "ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to run on veggie oil"

     

    Intention or not, reality is you can't purchase a new TDI and pour TacoBell gunk into the tank, or even a clean bottle of Crisco.

     

    Is this a diesel vs hybrid thread, or TDI vs HCH?
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    Here is a recient writeup about Diesels that speaks of some studies by General Motors, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and the University of Alberta in Canada. Basically, the Diesel looks to be winner. (If not today, in the very near future)

      

    I guess the debate in the forum is being answered by scientific well-to-wheel studies. When considering ALL the energy consumption, (Gasoline requires refining) science is showing us that even the complicated technology of the hybreds are not match for Roudulph Diesel's engine that was ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to run on veggie oil. (Not many folks know that was Roudolph's intention)

      

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/126689- - 1.html


     

    I agree that diesel is more versatile, but don't forget that crude still has to be refined into Diesel.

    By the way, Rudolph wante to make his engine run on Coal/water slurry as well.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Member Posts: 2,798
    But you'll never be "completley independant of the dinasaur-based-refined-crude-oil-fuel-sources" if you

      

    OWN A CAR

      

    which requires engine oil for lubricant and plastics (some of which require petroleum in the mfg process) and other oils and lubrication throughout the car.


     

    Have you ever heard of synthetic oils? by the way, Diesel engines require synth.

     

    On anothoer note, here is a hypothetical problem. You have a wad of cash, and you are cold. Will you:

    A) set the wad of cash on fire to keep you warm for a couple of minutes or,

    B) take the cash to buy firewood/coal to keep you warm for the rest of the winter?

     

    I think I know what I will chose.

     

    The analogy applyes to crude being used for fuel or as starting material in polymer synthsis. At this point we are burning the cash to keep us warm for a couple of minutes at a time (or driving in our debate).
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote blueiedgod-"Have you ever heard of synthetic oils? by the way, Diesel engines require synth."-end quote

     

    Synthetic oils are created using "pertoleum base stock" molecules, which will also not be available when dino oil is gone from the planet.

     

    So "synthetic oil" at least in today's technology is not completely created from "scratch." :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I've averaged about 60MPG in my HCH. Do any TDI's exceed that? Why should I settle for 45 or 50?

     

    Good question. You probably would not. There are many that would for several simple reasons, they would be in a better handling, passing, hill climbing, faster braking, safer car. That is also more fun to drive according to those that own both. And if you check with 100 drivers of both cars I doubt that you would get any difference in overall mileage. 45-50 is the average for the two cars in this debate. Both cars are good one is just more fun to drive. If you get the Jetta Wagon you have a lot more room and get better mileage.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gary-"they would be in a better handling, passing, hill climbing, faster braking, safer car."-end quote

     

    "Better Handling" - not really necessary for a commute car that is not a sports car. If you want "great handling" for whatever reason, then choose a two door sports car.

     

    "Passing" - I have had a lot of low power cars, and I have never had a problem passing someone. If you want to pass someone QUICKLY just for the FEELING of going FAST, then buy a sports car.

     

    "Hill Climbing" - If you live in a hilly area and have to climb a lot of hills, you are not going to get 45-50 out of any car, as climbing affects MPG a great deal. I know several Hybrid owners from Colorado who have reported no negatives from the hilly areas.

     

    "faster braking" - once again, this is something that applies only in EXTREME EMERGENCIES. All cars with ABS are going to stop pretty darn well under NORMAL driving conditions. How often have you had a car in front of you STOP DEAD while on a hwy or freeway? I have driven over a million miles and it has NEVER happened to me.

     

    "safer car" - none of the Hybrids on the road today are "unsafe" so that is just nonsense.

     

    So buyers: find the car that meets your need and your budget and buy it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    then buy a sports car.

     

    You hit it on the head. You can have a wagon that handles like a sports car with the utility to haul people and stuff. Plus you get 45-50 mpg. Mountain roads do not hamper mileage on the Jetta. As a matter of fact the best mileage I ever got on my 1978 Accord was traveling in the Rockies. I covered the state and averaged 36 mpg. I never got that good in flatland MN or when we took it to CA.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, PLEASE do not tell me you are insinuating that a Jetta Wagon is a SPORTS CAR?

     

    That would be a totally ridiculous assertion, which I can quickly disprove if that's what you are saying ..... :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    which I can quickly disprove if that's what you are saying

     

    I have not owned either car so cannot speak from experience. The one thing in all the consumer reviews that stands out is the Jetta is FUN to drive. That is why people buy sports cars. So what is the argument? If you are going to throw out 0-60 as some kind of important figure forget it. I want 50-70 mph performance for passing on two lane roads when I get behind a hybrid that is trying to squeeze 50 mpg out of their car.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "I just got a 2003 VW Jetta Wagon as a second car. The handling, while not a sports car, is predictable."

     

    Googling like mad, but yet to find one website that calls the Jetta Wagon a "sports car"

     

    My HCH is "fun to drive" also, just not in a "sports car" way. I could put wider tires and a turbo charger and a catback exhaust on my HCH and make it "faster" but that's not what a High Mileage car is supposed to be, is it?

     

    People shopping for "sporty handling" should look at the two door sports cars designed for that sort of thrill.

     

    People looking for a good, solid, reliable high mileage 4 door sedan are not looking for a sports car.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    People shopping for "sporty handling" should look at the two door sports cars designed for that sort of thrill.

      

    My question is Why? This is a comparison of two cars and their attributes. My contention from all I have read is that the Jetta is a better car for driving than the Civic hybrid. I am not saying that trying to squeeze the last mile out of a car is not Fun. I'm sure that it is for many. Xcel comes to mind. I think he would love to squeeze miles out of a Hummer if given the opportunity.

     

    If I wanted a sports car I would not get a 2 door as the Mitsu EVO MR can blow away most sports cars on the road. with 0-60 in 4.3 seconds and the best steering many reviewers have ever experienced would qualify as a sports car hiding in a 4 door sedan. Plus the EVO just won the first two places in the Dakar race across the Sahara. With a VW in 3rd place. No Honda's in sight.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    two cars, NEITHER OF THEM being "sports cars"

     

    Sports cars are for sport. High Mileage efficient cars are for saving gas money. Like oil and water, they shalt not mix.

     

    If you want sporty handling and performance, then you are not in the market for a high mileage vehicle.

     

    Conversely, if you want a high mileage vehicle, you UNDERSTAND that sportiness is not a part of the equation.

     

    If you want to drive either an HCH or a Jetta TDI as a sports car, then you bought the wrong car.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Geesh - must be a Monday thing.

     

    If you want to discuss something OTHER than the TDI v. Civic Hybrid specifically take it to another venue. (We have an entire discussion on synthetic oil BTW).

     

    For those who wish to compare the TDI v. Civic Hybrid - here's the place.

     

    If you want to discuss Hybrids v. Diesels in general, please take it to that discussion.

     

    Further off-topic posts will be removed without the courtesy of them being emailed to you for re-posting elsewhere in the boards.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Is anybody waiting for the full specs of the new 2005 Jetta TDI (was announce at recent LA Auto Show and will be called the second 2005 Jetta). It will be available in March 2005. Call it what you want the HCH is still an economy car; Honda's Accord is where Honda first starts putting in any near-luxury features in a car line. The VWs just seem to be more feature rich and some more intrinsic items such as suspension ,road feel and handling. The are closer to near-luxury than the Honda Civic line, including the HCH. Then there is still that 3 second gap , its a hard one to close for just a few additional mpgs. If you really, I mean really, look into the VW electrical reliaiblity issues the coils and window acutators, they were not the kind of problems that left you stranded.

     

    Anyway, the new 2005 TDI may be worth waiting for as more of VWs near-luxury ammenities are pushed downstream. And can you say HUGE trunk 24.5 cu. ft.

     

    Good Luck, Mileage ON,

     

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Unless the race is to see who can go the farthest on a tank of gas, then I might race em !! :)

     

    Sure, the TDIs are "more upscale" than the Civics, but I personally wanted HIGHER MPG and CLEANER exhaust than the TDI line. After about 9,000 miles of driving my HCH, I have YET to floor it on a 0-60 in normal day to day driving,so I don't care about losing a race to a TDI.

     

    And for overall reliability of the car lineup, the Hondas are way WAY better.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    but I personally wanted HIGHER MPG and CLEANER exhaust than the TDI line.

     

    I think the jury is still out on which is cleaner. If you live in a non CARB state the EPA shows a 6 rating. The new 2005 TDI is also a 6 rating. The only one that has been tested so far is the Beetle TDI with manual shift. The HCH is lower on GHG than the TDI.
  • jrbldrjrbldr Member Posts: 3
    c'mon guys, stop being so parochial. They both get great mileage, the hybrid is better at that, no doubt, but the Jetta - ANY Jetta - is a better road car. It is a fact of life, and car genes. First of all, German cars (regardless of where built) just have better steering and "road feel", and have for over 20 years. It is their niche.

     

    Secondly, in the case of the Jetta, you also have the benefit of no funny business going on with steering and brakes in order to conserve or generate electricity. No hybrid controller second-guessing your heel and toe downshifts. Is either one a "sports car"? No, but the Jetta is closer to one than any hybrid out there, and capable of providing significant entertainment on twisty back roads. The hybrids are getting better but they are not yet in the same league, nor do they profess to be.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, I would agree. I did the numbers on both the Jetta and the Honda Civics. It would be hard for me to be parochial, I have both the TDI Jetta and the Honda Civic gasser. The reason for me not getting the hybrid was the difference in sales price between a Civic gasser and hybrid. The other reason was the 250,000 mile and above mileage and time horizon. There is almost no way to break even between a hybrid Civic and a gasser Civic in the normal time and mileage. The chances of major repair and higher maintenance repair dollars is far greater with the hybrid than the Honda Civic gasser.

     

    I think the main difference between the two is you do not have to monitor the TDI as much as you do the hybrid or even the gasser. So if you drive either the hybrid or the Jetta TDI going 55-65 mph they both get just super mileage.

     

    Both have been flawless one for 47,000 miles and the other for 5,000 miles.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    > And for overall reliability of the car lineup, the Hondas are way WAY better.

     

    Any car can be reliable if the owner pays attention to the maintenance (you get out of the car what you put into it). Coming from a maintenance background, all of my VW's on average have been quite reliable.

     

    1997 VW Jetta Trek - Bought it at 80K, corrected a check engine light condition by replacing a $150 ignition coil (myself), now a daily driver to work (currently at 125,000 miles) with no problems afterward

     

    2003 Wolfsburg Jetta - 45K miles - no problems whatsoever

     

    1987 VW Golf GT - 16 years, 624,000 miles. Original engine and transmission lasted 429,000 miles. Swapped engine and transmission and continued to drive it until I hit a deer at 55mph.

    Extremely reliable.

     

    1975 VW Scirocco - Problems when I first bought it at 45000 miles. Switching the expensive Zenith carburetor with a Weber downdraft and swapping out the points/condenser ignition system to an electronic ignition system transformed the car to a very reliable vehicle which I drive cross-country 3 times. I put another 250,000 miles on it until a tractor trailer hit it.

     

    It seems like the majority of drivers nowadays neglect the maintenance on their vehicles (especially those who lease their vehicles), and when something goes wrong, they complain. A factory defect or recall is one thing (and responsibility should fall on the factory or dealership). But neglecting to do even the basic amount of maintenace on a vehicle is inexcusable. And that goes for VW's, Hondas, Toyotas, motor scooters, spaceships, etc...

     

    Just my $0.02...
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "To keep this on topic, which car RIGHT NOW in the USA is cleaner, the Jetta TDI or the HCH?"

      

    .

    Depends where you buy it. In California with low-sulfur gasoline, the Civic Hybrid is cleaner (10=SULEV). Elsewhere, it's a dead heat. Both the Jetta & Civic are equally clean (6=ULEV). Source: www.fueleconomy.gov

     

    (And yes, the EPA included the diesel's particulate/soot emissions)

    troy
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The other thing is diesel fuel is artificially higher than unleaded regular. More taxes percentage wise (%) are paid on diesel rather than unleaded regular.

     

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."Yes, I would agree. I did the numbers on both the Jetta and the Honda Civics. It would be hard for me to be parochial, I have both the TDI Jetta and the Honda Civic gasser. The reason for me not getting the hybrid was the difference in sales price between a Civic gasser and hybrid. The other reason was the 250,000 mile and above mileage and time horizon. There is almost no way to break even between a hybrid Civic and a gasser Civic in the normal time and mileage. The chances of major repair and higher maintenance repair dollars is far greater with the hybrid than the Honda Civic gasser.

      

    I think the main difference between the two is you do not have to monitor the TDI as much as you do the hybrid or even the gasser. So if you drive either the hybrid or the Jetta TDI going 55-65 mph they both get just super mileage.

      

    Both have been flawless one for 47,000 miles and the other for 5,000 miles."...

     

    There is also a vast quality difference between the Civic (S) and the Jetta TDI. While one can argue the merits of the difference between a 12,500 dollar Honda against the 18,000 dollar Jetta TDI, or even the 20,000 dollar Honda Civic Hybrid, one has to ask is the 20,000 dollar Civic hybrid, which for discussion purposes is different in engine and drive train combination from the Honda gasser Civic: is in fact 7500 dollars better in quality?? I personally know the (buying) answer for me. The first hoop is 12,500 Civic rated at 29/38 mpg vs 20,000 hybrid rated at 47/48 mpg or 7500 dollars. The projected BE given rated mileages is app 450,000 -500,000 miles.

     

    Also, I think the results indicate that Honda has done a better job in marketing and selling lower (but perceived higher) quality and reliability than VW has done in marketing and selling higher quality. :(:) An obvious issue with VW is the higher percentage (%) of "higher" quality vehicles having PITA little and major things going wrong.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I disagree. If you look at http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/manufacturers.htm you can see that Honda has a much better reliability (lack of complaints) than Volkswagen.

     

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    you can see that Honda has a much better reliability (lack of complaints) than Volkswagen

     

    Maybe VW drivers are more demanding and expect more from their driving machines. I see an awful lot of complaints here on Edmund's concerning rattles and squeaks from the Accord. Yet they never seem to show up on these so called consumer reports. Maybe Honda has a better PR department. Where does JD Powers & Consumer Reports get this information. Of the 20-30 new vehicles I have bought, I was never contacted by either company. I could have given them an earful on several new cars.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    This is a testimonial study, which usually are not statistically accurate. Consumer Reports is better but it is still not statistically accurate especially on newer car years. NTSA is better, but it is still not measuring the exact metric of reliability. Even better, is J.D. Powers, but again it looks at initial quality. The only way to get a truly accurate assessment is for a third party to be engaged and select a statistically valid sample of the entire automotive universe. This is easier said than done becuase it is costly and there are so many variables and external conditions that cannot be controlled.

     

    Thanks,

     MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    VW has a worse reputation for a reason:

     

    Their cars break down more often.

     

    It's as simple as that - nothing about "VW drivers expecting more" yada yada yada. It's the fact that the VW cars break down more often.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Is anybody waiting for the Brand New 2005 Jetta ( announced at the recent LA Autoshow) that will be available in March 2005 ?

     

    Thanks,

     

    MidCow
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    Folks in our 2006 Jetta discussion are! There's been some confusion about whether the model year would be 05 or 06, but if you're talking about the re-design, that's the place.

     

    kirstie_h

    Roving Host

    Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am not sure what you are disagreeing with!? I have pretty much said (and reiterate) that Honda has a better reliability rate and record than VW.

     

    Or another way of saying it : VW statistically has a higher rate of % of cars that have defects. What that is precisely neither (or any other OEM will cop to) So while my VW Jetta TDI is a baby at 47,000 miles and has been flawless, am I to think when it is good it is really good?

     

    I think for me the long term verdict remains out until the 250,000 to 500,000 to my goal of 1,000,000 mile range. But then, it will be pretty hard to compare Honda vs VW, since there is a decided lack of Honda's that get into this category, so really a comparison might be rather moot!? I think we can take a cue from the Japanese who consider their Honda engines OVER the HILL at 35-50,000 miles!!??

     

    A lot of folks here have also said when it is bad: it is REALLY bad. But if you look at Honda's and Honda threads, there are a lot of folks posting their problems, almost in shock and apologetic!!??! Contrast that with VW posters post almost EXPECTING trouble and they are comforted by the fact that it happened to them!!?? i.e. the pre warming: I told you so: being at work here:( :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, I think this phenomenon is very true. I have been contacted by JD Powers for several vehicles and when I was a member of Consumer Reports; by Consumer Reports. The "test or survey forms" are identical for each vehicle.

     

    The amount of test validity is propriety, as is the validity of comparing one product against another. So I can not quantify how the differences and similarities are codified.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    VW drivers expecting more is all nonsense. VWs have been clearly more unreliable, and for this reason have been losing market share in the US, and profitability all over the world.

     

    Even of you see the Edmunds forums, the Accord will have problems like rattles, while as the PAssat has far more serious problems (apart from the coil issue) including valve train issues. This has been recognized by CR and reflects in their latest report.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    VW drivers expecting more is all nonsense. VWs have been clearly more unreliable, and for this reason have been losing market share in the US, and profitability all over the world.

     

    First it is difficult to prove any of your allegations on the VW and specifically the Jetta TDI. I give so little credence to CR and JD Powers that they would be the last source I would check with before buying a vehicle.

     

    I think you have the best source overall sitting in front of you with the Edmund's forum. If you do a diligent search I think you will find that both the Jetta TDI and HCH are very close to equal on reliability. Neither is perfect. Most owners love their cars. To me it makes it a difficult decision. The only weight that the TDI has over the HCH is longevity. The HCH just does not have the years or miles to back up the claims of long term reliability. Plus you can get the Jetta TDI in a very nice wagon that actually gets better mileage than the sedan.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"If you do a diligent search I think you will find that both the Jetta TDI and HCH are very close to equal on reliability."-end quote

     

    The "Civic Hybrid" is too new to get data that means anything at this point, true.

     

    But the HCH is a CIVIC - so CIVIC data is perfectly acceptable as a guide of reliability. And the Civic has traditionally been a very high scoring car in EVERY rating system created.

     

    And the Jetta has been LESS RELIABLE than the Civic - that is indisputable.

     

    The only way to really get good data is to look at 2003 Jetta TDI data and at 2003 Civic Hybrid data after 3 and 4 years of ownership, which right now is not possible.

     

    But the "Civic versus the Jetta" debate CLEARLY goes to the Civic.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I think if what you are saying is true with out regard to the rate, I clearly should not have gotten one or the other make and model.

     

    Or, if this adversarial tone on this thread is to be believe I am 50% incorrect! :(:) In my case it is not true!! At the three and 4 year mark if folks are interested, I can give a take, but right now on a 2 year (24 mo) VW Jetta TDI vs less than one year take (4mo)Honda Civic 4 gasser take, both are flawless. If you were to weight the time and mileage frame, right now the advantage would go to VW 24 mo vs 4 mo, 47,000 miles vs 5,000 miles.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    But the "Civic versus the Jetta" debate CLEARLY goes to the Civic.

     

    I think you probably believe that. I am sure others share your belief. I for one do not. I have scoured this board for owners of the VW TDI vehicles and have not gotten the negative response from owners as I have from non owners. Which tells me that some of the gripes about the Jetta are sour grapes. The Jetta TDI is better handling, better braking, and safer according to all indicators than the Civic. I guess the only unknown is the Civic hybrid drive train. Will it give the 10 years and 150k miles of trouble free service? Only time will tell.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    "Maybe VW drivers are more demanding and expect more from their driving machines"

    "Maybe Honda has a better PR department."

    "Where does JD Powers & Consumer Reports get this information."

     

    Just when you thought you've heard it all,

     

    Now we know that Volkswagens are known for reliability, but they only break down because the drivers are demanding more from them and it's only that Honda has better PR.

     

    Never mind JD Powers and consumer reports and the thousands of VW problematic links in google databases.

    All the problems worse than a rattle are caused by Demanding drivers.

    Some here claim that Jetta TDI has sports car performance.

    Really? Should I buy a TDI over an HCH because of its sports car attributes?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I do not think he is saying that at all! But surely you have twisted it around to say it!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"I think you probably believe that. I am sure others share your belief. I for one do not."-end quote

     

    It's not a BELIEF, its a FACT. It's not an opinion, it's based on years of watching reviews and keeping up with car information.

     

    Name me ONE SINGLE PUBLISHED DOCUMENT that shows the Jetta TDI is more reliable than the Civic, and I will bow to your superior knowledge.

     

    ( There will be no naming, because there is NOT ONE. )

     

    And anyone who disputes JD Power and Consumer Reports because of "bias" or any other nonsense is just not dealing in reality. That data is compiled from REAL OWNERS with REAL PROBLEMS with CARS THEY OWN.

     

    How can that be biased, or incorrect, in any way?

     

    This 2003 study, which measures problems reported by original owners of 2000 model-year vehicles at three years of ownership:

    Brand Problems Per 100

    Porsche 103

    Toyota 196

    Honda 215

    Nissan 258

    BMW 262

    GM 264

    Subaru 266

    AVERAGE 273

    Ford 287

    DaimlerChrysler 311

    Mitsubishi 339

    Hyundai 342

    Isuzu 368

    VW 378

    Suzuki 403

    Daewoo 421

    Kia 509

     

    Another, at the end of a 2005 Jetta review: "Competition in the subcompact class, the Honda Civic continues to be the car to beat with a wide range of bodystyles, engines, and equipment. Ford's Focus is also a Best Buy, and though it doesn't offer the refinement of the Civic, it doesn't cost as much either."

     

    "Significant engine problems" in 1999-2001 Jettas according to MSN Autos.

     

    The list goes ON and ON.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    it's based on years of watching reviews

     

    Ok here are some figures that are easy for you to check out. This is for year 2003 as you requested. There are 73 reviews of Jetta TDI cars. The overall average is 9.1. There are 33 reviews for the Civic Hybrid with an average of 9.0. One of the things overlooked in this debate is the fact that the TDIs are made in Germany. The gas versions are made elsewhere. If you read the reviews you will find about the same amount of little problems with the HCH as the Jetta TDI. What you won't see much of is people driving the HCH that claim it is the most fun they have had driving a car. Many will say that about the Jetta TDI. As you have shown with your printout you can make statistics say what you want them to say. It is more difficult to get actual owners to subvert the truth. They call them as they see them.

     

    The only conclusion that can be drawn from this research is that 2003 Jetta TDI owners are much happier with their purchase than 2003 HCH owners.

     

    HCH:

    Review: I am happy with the vehicle. But, when I was exploring which one of my cars to sell, I was extremely disappointed in the resale value.

     

    Review: I am just a little disappointed in the MPG as my Civic Hybrid is only averaging about 40.9 (calculated). I purchase the car new in 06/2002 and now have 33,400 miles on the car.

     

    Review: I bought this car thinking I could save a bit of money with it's great fuel economy. However, I found out later that every 10,000 miles it needs a $100.00 maintenance fee with an expensive oil change in between. Gone are my hypothetical savings. Not worth what I expected to get out of it.


     

    Jetta TDI:

    Review: After waiting for almost 4 months it finally arrived last December. 13000 m on the o. now. Getting 53-56 miles per gallon.

     

    Review: Other than having the AC not work after delivery in March this Car has been flawless just like my 2000 which I still own.The perfect car for someone that spends a lot of time on the road and wants to do it in a comfortable and cost efficient matter.My 2000 Sdn.has 120,000 miles on it and my 2003 Wgn. has 4,000 miles on it. What more can I say.The Jetta is the most underrated Car.

     

    Review: I love my Jetta! The Jetta is fun to drive, has excellent fuel economy, (44- 51 mpg, up to 700 miles/tank) is good looking, and reliable. I have personally driven this vehicle about 5000 miles, and I am impressed with the precision in the steering, along with the overall maneuverability.

     

    Review: I LOVE my TDI wagon! It is zippy and gets 50 mpg. I have never had a mechanical problem with it. We use biodiesel fuel and reduce our emissions considerably, making it an environmentally sound choice. I feel very safe driving it with the extra airbags and safety features. Would buy it again in an instant and intend to keep it for years to come.

     

    Review: I love this car!!! It is so fun and nice to drive comfortable for 5 min or 5 hours!! I Love to fuel mileage, 42 to 53 mpg! Great handling on back roads and highway. Quite interior.Great radio sound. Never seems to run out of power and It just looks great. I really love my car in case you can't tell.


     

    Read the rest for your self you will see that JD powers and CR have missed the mark. Who pays them for all that fancy testing and statistics anyway? Or are they doing it for fun?
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Anyone that thinks reliable=better has a very narrow view of what a vehicle should deliver to its owner. And PLEASE do not confuse quality with reliable. (VW is obviously better quality than most Asian vehicles... If one cannot see that, then they have littl concept materials and workmanship)

     

    All vehicles have their problems and I agree that VW does not do as well as Honda at 'covering up' perceved issues. A dealer that goes out of his way to willingly fix any and all complaints makes the car SEEM better. Most VW dealers do not tend to be this willing thus VWs suffer the concequences when the pollsters show up. I know, I have owned both Honda and VW.

     

    For me, reliability is less important than a rust-free body for at least 10 years. VW has Honda beat hands-down at this contest. Plus the TDI has a 600,000 mile life expectancy while the batteries in a hybred are considerd HAZZARDOUS WASTE and will never last even 200,000 miles.

     

    The TDI can travel at highways speeds for hours on end while still delivering about 55 MPG. Try that with a hybred.

     

    I receintly retruned from a 80 hour trip from Vermont-to-Colorado-and-back where the engine never had a chance to cool down. We rotated thru 3 drivers for over 4000 miles. If I owned a Hybred, I would have had to rent a car because it would have been a cruel trip for all 4 passengers in a hybred.

     

    The TDI is a REAL CAR and the hybred is a toy which will be out of vogue in a few years.

     

    Who would want to purchase a used hybred with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazzardous waste? On the other hand, TDIs are in extremely high demand and maintain their value because they last and last. (Both the engine and the body)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I can tell you for sure that neither JD Powers nor Consumer Reports have any room for "fun"
This discussion has been closed.