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Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid
My short list is down to a Jetta TDI wagon or the Civic Hybrid.
I'm leaning toward the Jetta, primarily for these reasons:
1) more fun to drive
2) available as a wagon
3) diesel technology has a proven track record, hybrid does not.
4) locally available with manual transmission (which seems to be even harder to find in the Hybrid)
5) better safety features (head curtain air bags, ESP skid protection with brake-assist)
6) nicer interior (except for cramped rear leg room)
Big plusses for the Hybrid include:
1) cleaner emissions (though the TDI probably will narrow the gap as low-suphur diesel and biodiesel become more available; I can get biodiesel delivered to my home in bulk)
2) better reliability, at least until the batteries wear out
3) sales tax-free in Maryland through June 30
4) no trouble finding fuel (though this does not seem to be a huge issue for my area)
Total price-to-purchase is very close for the 2 cars; fuel mileage is similar (probably with a real-world advantage for the Jetta in mostly highway driving); both get good safety ratings for their class. So I tend to weight subjective factors ("fun to drive") fairly heavily. And, since I live in farm country, biodiesel has a little extra appeal to me.
Anyone care to add or take issue with anything?
I'm leaning toward the Jetta, primarily for these reasons:
1) more fun to drive
2) available as a wagon
3) diesel technology has a proven track record, hybrid does not.
4) locally available with manual transmission (which seems to be even harder to find in the Hybrid)
5) better safety features (head curtain air bags, ESP skid protection with brake-assist)
6) nicer interior (except for cramped rear leg room)
Big plusses for the Hybrid include:
1) cleaner emissions (though the TDI probably will narrow the gap as low-suphur diesel and biodiesel become more available; I can get biodiesel delivered to my home in bulk)
2) better reliability, at least until the batteries wear out
3) sales tax-free in Maryland through June 30
4) no trouble finding fuel (though this does not seem to be a huge issue for my area)
Total price-to-purchase is very close for the 2 cars; fuel mileage is similar (probably with a real-world advantage for the Jetta in mostly highway driving); both get good safety ratings for their class. So I tend to weight subjective factors ("fun to drive") fairly heavily. And, since I live in farm country, biodiesel has a little extra appeal to me.
Anyone care to add or take issue with anything?
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I have never tried Bio-Diesel in mine so I can't answer that question. I have been extremely pleased with the mileage I have received from my car and the drivability of the car. My only complaint is the rear leg room, but then again my kids are 3 and 2, so they have little legs. I also know that Hybrid owners have been real pleased with their cars as well.
My suggestion....take a 24hour drive (if Honda will let you do that...I know VW will let you take one home overnight to test) in each of them back to back.
I read an article where someone was running biodiesel all the time in their VW TDI, with good results. Funnily enough, the cost in dollars was not much less than buying regular diesel from the gas station, but of course the emissions are WAY less.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nice to know about this, though.
In our area, petro diesel has been running about $1.75/gallon. Soy biodiesel (available in a neighboring county) is offered as follows:
At the pump
B2 - $1.75/gallon
B100 - $2.799/ gallon
Bulk delivery
B20 (on road use) - $2.159/gallon
B100 (on road use) - $3.199/gallon
As for the emissions, a study I read last night indicated that, in general, emissions are indeed way less for biodiesel than for petro diesel. However, for oxides of nitrogen (NOx), it appears they actually INcrease a bit with biodiesel. Better technologies (fuel side or car side) can further improve diesel emissions, whether we're talking about bio or petro varieties.
I think it is a shame (shameful, even) that these technologies are not widely available here, as they are in Europe. For my money, diesel technologies (encompassing new European engine designs, biodiesel, and low sulphur petro diesel) are perhaps this country's best hope for greater energy independence and cleaner air. It is quite amazing that these possibilities are hardly registering on the political radar screen, when we could be driving longer-lasting engines, polluting less, and importing less foreign oil (all with technologies available now and suitable for cars both large and small).
This statement baffles me. I drive my TDI in carpool lanes all the time (provided I have the minimum # of people in my vehicle). There is nothing that says you cannot drive diesel vehicles in the carpool lane.
If you are speaking of having 4 people in a Jetta, that is quite easy to do. The rear legroom is a bit cramped for 6' adults ,but it is not so uncomfortable that it is impossible. It is done all of the time. The Jettas rear seat/legroom is comparable to that of the Civic.
I still think the best way to compare them for buying is to keep them overnight back to back. Drive them and get a feel for them. I think fuel mielage will be comparable, so it is a question of emissions (which with your biodiesel should help the TDI become less poluntant) if that is important, room (wagon vs sedan), and "drivability".
Oh, and yea, enjoy the tests.
And yes, I meant solo driving in the HOV lane.
tom: at the level that NOx emissions are in general, it is probably a net benefit that biodiesel reduces particulate spewing as much as it does, even if it marginally increases NOx emissions.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Dennis
Think green. A combination of higher fuel economy and lower emission is the key. To my knowledge, Focus PZEV and Camry PZEV do not qualify for HOV lanes. Offering just lower emssion nor high fuel economy will not cut into the HOV lane. You'll need both.
Dennis
In Maryland, too, the tax holiday on Energy Star products (including Hybrid vehicles) ends after June 30.
After that, you no longer can buy your Hybrid vehicle free of state sales tax in Maryland.
BTW - 40 cetane diesel is selling for $.25/gal less than 87 octane gas in VA.
what service does the Civic need every 3000 mi ?
what happens if the battery pack isn't changed at 100K ?
Battery. Over time any battery will loose its capacity to recharge. By 100K the battery pack hits the inflection point where its ability to take and hold a charge drops. The battery pack is what gives you the 50+ mpg since this is where the charge from the regenerative braking is stored. With a weaker battery fuel economy will go down since more of the load will be thrown on the gas engine.
Manuals? Both?
""MPG: I get low 40s driving 85mi/day, she gets low 50s doing 100mi/day.""
I'm a bit surprised at how good the Civic Hybrid is above. COuld you be more precise? What is the Cumulative MPG on the Civic's Computer? (Lifetime MPG)? (Eg. 48.7 mpg) I was expecting less than 45. And would you call her commute pure highway. or what mix of city and highway? or empty country road driving at 50 mph?
Then, if you have the same number for the TDI, use the avarage fuel prices for each (very different, diesel is far cheaper than even regular in most states),
And find the true average Operating, fuel cost in $/mile, or miles/$, foe each car.
" MAINT: TDI saves me as much on maintainance as it does on fuel. "
And don''t forget the longevity of the diesel.
""Oil chg every 10K, filters every 40K, belt at 80K. Honda requires a service - dealer - every 3000mi.""
How much do they charge for each such 3k service?
""DRIVING: Civic accelerates better. Other than that, par between the two. Couple of items I would note a) the battery pack in the Hybrid needs to be changed at 100K. Estimated cost @$1500. b) TDI can be rigged to tow a trailer.
BTW - 40 cetane diesel is selling for $.25/gal less than 87 octane gas in VA. ""
Actually VA has some of thw lowest gas prices in the Nation, as you can see from the AAA Fuelgauge site, go to the state by state page.
Sounds like, given those (broad) real-world mileage numbers above, the HCH driver is saving about $5 per week over driving the TDI. Is $250/year enough to pay for the extra maintenance the Honda requires? I would think so - the Honda gets one of those big 30K services that costs $300-400.
Do the VW's oil changes require synthetic oil at twice the price of the Honda's dyno oil changes? Or does the Honda's 0W-20 oil cost so much from Honda as to eliminate that cost savings?
I will certainly wait to see, and this pair would be a PERFECT test duo, but I would be surprised if the Honda needs an entirely new battery pack at 100K. More likely, its fuel economy advantage over the TDI will slip a bit, and I would love to know how much. I bet it will still be ahead.
Incidentally, vwinva, have you and your spouse ever tried switching cars for a week to see how the fuel economy changes? Perhaps an average differential could be computed if so.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Tune ups at 105,000 miles not that there is much to "tune up" anymore.
Transmission: Jetta is automatic, Civic is stick. Jetta stick would get high 40s.
Driving mix: Jetta 70% Interstate, 30% local Hybrid: 80/20.
Civic MPG: Consistently above 50MPG. Suspect this is a combination of cruise control and efficient recharging coming down off the hills. Civic uses 87 Octane.
Jetta oil: 5W40 synthetic. Meets the VW 505.2 spec. Can get it at Wal-Mart.
Fuel price: As of 6/21 40 Cetane Diesel was $1.699/gal, 87 Octane was $1.919/gal at the Shell I buy from.
Additives: I use 4oz of Powerservice's Diesel Kleen + Cetane Boost with each tank. Separates water in the fuel, cleans injectors. and delays ignition. Have run tank tests with/without. Recovers 90% of the cost of the additive from improved fuel economy. Can get it at Wal-Mart.
Hybrid uses straight 87 octane from Shell.
DIY maintainance: Have changed oil, air & fuel filters, rotated tires, cleaned the snorkle (lead in to air filter)myself. Not difficult though tedious since VW put covers under and over the engine that have to be taken off and put back on every time. Will leave the timing belt to a mechanic. Hybrid goes to dealer since it is still under warranty.
Equipment failures: none
Modifications: Civic is stock. Jetta has had ECU upgraded to Upsolute chip. More HP, More Torque. $325. With mod. the Jetta accelerates like a Gas 4. If it keeps me from being rear-ended once on the Interstate, it's paid for itself.
For the 1996-2003 TDI you can also go by API ratings. CH-4, CG-4, or CI-4. 5W-40 is preferred and 5W-30 may be used. If you use the API rating make sure you obtain a full synthetic.
2. Towing: Towed an open-top trailer filled with brush this weekend. Jetta lost 10mpg when towing. Acceleration poor but no other noticeable driving problems while towing.
3. A/C: Hybrid does not take a hit when running A/C. Surprised but true. Jetta looses @ 2mpg. Both get the cabin cool and keep that way quickly.
4. Noise: Hybrid is very quiet. Engine shut-down at a stop can spook you until you get used to it. Jetta is a diesel and you know it.
5. MPG impact of chipping the ECU: None. Upsolute says on their website that MPG can increase or decrease 10% depending on car and driving style.
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I have a much longer time and mileage frame than that for the VW Jetta TDI. I am considering either the Prius or Civic hybrid when and if it comes time.(or even another TDI)
I average 40mpg in the summer and 37 in the winter with my Honda Civic EX (5 speed) with a 60/40 Interstate/rural roads mix. A Civic EX is several thousand dollars cheaper than a TDI or Hybrid. The 10-30% increase in fuel economy a TDI or Hybrid provides will never make up the difference in purchase price.
The resale value on the tail-end is always a big question, but one thing we do know is that the TDI's hold their value very well. Assuming the market doesn't become flooded with cheap diesel alternatives, I see that statistic holding true. Who knows on the hybrids. Will a civic hybrid with 200k miles be a white elephant? Old diesels banging around still bringing prime dollar; passats, jettas, MB's, ever price a used full-size pickup with 300k miles?? Still big money!
Civic loses $8,265 over 5 years in depreciation
Jetta loses $11,018 over 5 years in depreciation
One would pay almost $4,000 more for a Jetta over a Civic, PLUS have almost $3,000 more in depreciation. All to save a few hundred bucks in gas costs?
Given my time and mileage horizon ((in my case 500,000 to 1M) the TDI made economic sense over the Civic/Corolla.
I get a TMV for Civic at $16,730 as well if you include side airbags which are standard on the Jetta (and have been since '99). You'll save about $1,000 in fuel in 75k miles with the TDI over a Civic. I guess that's ten hundred bucks, lol!
You're probably right though, it very likely is cheaper to drive the Civic even if you assume my higher (according to current prices)resale figures. I didn't realize civics were still that cheap.
I have to disagree, unless you are in California, no one uses blue book. In all my previous dealings with cars, Edmunds was the closest to real world prices. Which are pretty much on par with Gavins (sp??) or whatever "black book" people in the business use.
Doing a little research...Edmunds says my five-year old TDI with 85k miles is worth $10,500 private value. According to their cost-to-own depreciation, a 2004 TDI will be worth $10,341 in five years/75k miles. This seems low considering how much the MSRP and selling prices have gone up over the last five years. Do they anticipate TDI's losing value more quickly for some reason? Predicting resale value can be tough but it's a fact that diesels are always strong on the resale side. Hybrids....unknown.
So it is quite possible that the oil change interval for the Civic Hybrid is 3K Miles, while the normal Civic is 5K miles (assuming severe schedule - the "normal" maintenance on the ICE Civic is 10K miles).
Can a Civic Hybrid owner check their owner's manual and tell us the oil change interval recommendations?
TDI Wagon has is a very practical vehicle with good mileage. Civic Hybrid has excellent mileage but you are losing a lot of practicality because of size.
My Golf's cargo room is very impressive.
Oil change interval is 10K miles if the vehicle used in an ideal environment (Honda calls this "normal environment")
Or 5K miles if driven in real-life conditions. (Honda call this "severe")
I wouldn't call my MPG results normal or something someone else should expect but I've gotten over 60MPG per calculated tank for the last several months from my HCH, above 57MPG since I bought the car last January and 25,500 miles ago.
I have noticed that the Honda HCH & Insight are capable of very high mileage, 60 or over mpg. Where the Prius seems to peak at about 53 mpg. What do you attribute that difference to?
I live 45 mile N. of Atlanta, out where things grow.
I leave the house at about 4:30PM on my commute into the city of Atlanta. 40% rural country road with few stops. The rest is freeway with 4 miles of very heavy city traffic.
Since 99% of the traffic is fleeing the city my side is light.
I leave work at 2AM and drive onto a nearly abandoned freeway. No one bothers me going 53-65 in the far right lane. I take the same country road back home and only need to worry about an occasional deer.
As I mentioned.....this won't work for most people.
2nd Thing I attribute is something xcel (Wayne) showed me right off and that is driving with load.
It adds about 10 minutes to each of my 45 mile trips but I usually roll in at 60-64MPG, versus the mid 50's I'd otherwise get with cruise, etc.
Pretty good trade off.
So far based on the computer the Prius have been about 50 mpg. The TDI I hope should be near that but even if not, the money I save from the monthly payment should more than make that up.
However for me, there are some things that are giving me thoughts about the TDI.
First, I've resigned myself to shifting gears again. A real pain, but an automatic diesel doesn't offer much fuel advantage so there is no sense in going in that direction. Pro TDI posters like to gloss over this fact but it's a real show stopper. At least I can put up with stick, but in the real world majority can NOT.
Heat: Heat in the Prius comes in really quickly. Not only does the engine easily warm up, it has it's own electric heater. I know some Jettas have seat warmers, but I'm more concerned with the infant and the little kid behind. I'd rather have the heaters come quickly for their sake than have a toasty butt.
Warm up: With the Prius, I don't do warm ups. I just turn the key and go, no several seconds of shivery warm ups. This is because immediately after start, I let the electric propel me thru the neighborhood while the engine idle evenly in the background warming up. By the time I get to the main road I can gently bring it up to speed, and by the time I reach the highway I'm all set to accelerate.
Worse, is when I have to swap both cars in/out of my narrow single car garage. I'm not sure if TDI will take kindly to a 30 second start/backout/backin/stop thing. Not even sure if my wife can learn to shift gears long enough to back out the diesel from the driveway if she needs to get the van from the garage.
So far those are the things making me balk at right now.
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misterme: Can you explain more or point me to the thread about that driving with load thing you mentioned? I'd like to know more, thanks.
Diesels are efficient but are still BAD polluters - even the "clean" diesel is still much dirtier than gasoline exhaust. ( Unless you convert to bio-diesel !! )
As far as cost, you can get a 2004 Civic Hybrid for about $19500 in many places that still have a couple (or one) left over from the 2004 model year, and usually not much more for a 2005.
So good luck on your choice and hope you get the car and features you want/need.
I would think you could buy the Prius for less than a Jetta TDI. Do you have a buyout clause in your lease. Is there some reason you want to get rid of the 2001 Prius? Sounds like you are happy with the car.
As for the heat issue, the TDI's do take longer to warm up than a typical gasser, particularly the older ones. There is a electric heater that can be added though and will make the car start like a 90F day and you'll have instant heat from the vents. I have one on my car and it's set on a timer to come on three hours before I leave. It's a convenience and to get heat instantly. If I don't plug it in, it takes about 5 miles before you really start feeling the heat.
As for the drive-way switchero.....it doesn't matter. No vehicle will take kindly to that, although it's likely a very long-term issue. Each cold start causes wear, although for what it's worth, the TDI is a much more robust engine block and requires synthetic oil so it's possible there could be slightly less wear than a gasser. The only reason short trips are hard on a diesel is because they take a little longer to warm up so instead of needing 5 miles to hit operating temperature, they need 10. Or whatever.
Exactly what I'm planning to do larsb. Coming out of a fuel efficient green car, I can't go back really that far. In fact later I may go all the way and play around with used veggie oil conversion, the ultimate fuel mizer. Just 2 rows away lives a chinese couple owning a fast food check out and I'm sure I can get used oil for the asking.
To gagrice:
Yup, there is a buyout clause to my lease end next year. However I don't want to be on loan again for the next 4 to 5 years. This hybrid thing IS expensive even when already depreciated. The TDI I'm looking at is some really good old used ones, around 97 upwards, that I can pay off in a year or so. Loaned from my personal credit line as it won't be loanable under a bank.
Since this is just a 2nd car, I really don't need a car with all sorts of bells and whistles. All I need is a reliable fuel efficient car for work and picking up my kid from school on the way home. I have a good mechanic friend who picks up our car whenever we need them fixed.
As much as I like this hybrid, thats one thing I have against it too. I got some error which we were able to check with an OBD scanner and we tried opening the dash once. My mechanic friend gave up as there were too many wires he was unfamiliar with.
To sebring95.
Thanks for the advice. Yup, been considering those too, even some geo metros and suzuki swifts and tercels. Still as I mentioned to larsb above, I wanna be able to go all the way to used veggie too be energy independent (still to be seen if I can). To me this is where all our problem starts, we are too dependent on others for our energy.
As for the swap, I already use mobil1 for my Prius and all my cars so the wear factor should be about the same on whatever type of car I have to switch.
NOW... if only somebody sells me their 7 year old used cheap diesel serial hybrid I could run on used veggie oil I'll be in heaven. But I guess thats like 20 years from now yet.
Biodiesel might be a better choice for you, as it's more user friendly (if treated/mixed properly) for short-distance driving.
BTW, have you looked at what the market is like for your Prius? I know some of them are selling used for similar to new prices since Toyota can't seem to produce many of them. You might be able to buy it for the residual value and then resell it for a profit. Something to consider.
- The diesel car is simpler (1 engine) compared to the Civic Hybrid (1 engine + 1 motor), and therefore less things can go wrong.
But since the Insight Hybrid exists and I can get 85 lifetime MPG, I chose that.