Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

gagrice · January 2005

Who would want to purchase a used hybrid with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazardous waste? On the other hand, TDIs are in extremely high demand and maintain their value because they last and last. (Both the engine and the body)

That is the kind of testimonial that trumps all the figures that CR and JD Powers put out. I think hybrid owners that are selling right now are finding out just how fast they lose their value. I would love to see figures on used Hybrids that have ACTUALLY sold and the price paid. I tracked a few and most did not bring close to what was asked. Anyone have a site that tracks the selling price of used vehicles?

misterme · January 2005

Reviews work both ways.

Here are a few I've found contrary:

HCH Reviews

"I traded in my 2003 Volkswagen Golf diesel (42/49 mpg) for a 2005 Civic Hybrid. I will miss my Golf but will not miss smelly, smokey, less eco-friendly diesel fuel and multiple expensive trips to the dealer for all sorts of issues. Let's put it this way... I could have replaced Minute Made as the top lemonade producer in the world.

There is absolutely nothing I am unimpressed with. Quite the opposite, from the beautiful color to the automatic A/C, I love everything about this car. Acceleration is almost idenitical to my Golf and EPA fuel economy ratings are better! Well you guys already knew all that...Proud to be a Civic Hybrid owner!

As for VW, I am mostly disappointed with the service I recieved from ALL dealers in this area, and VW of America. It was abysmal. Routine maintenance is much more expensive than the Honda. They took weeks to make warranty repairs. I also had a couple out-of-warranty repairs that cost me a bundle. It was just time to make the trade... glad I did!"

-John

"I can HIGHLY recommend the HCH. After 17K miles and 9 months, I'm averaging 47 MPG and just love this car. It's a kick to drive, very very deceptively fast (no auto tranny shift, just smooth acceleration). Very comfortable on long trips (3200 miles total to and from the Oregon Coast). I love the styling. Love my HCH!"

-David Hagen

"Pros: Excellent car. This is my second HCH. My first is a 2003. Traded my VW Passat in for this car. Definitely will save me money in gas. Also, My state has a 3000 tax credit on the vehicle!!!

Cons: NOthing yet

Overall Review: Have bought again, and will trade my 2003 in on a 2006"

-MSN dot com

"Over 30,000 miles on my HCH since buying new in April. I commute 200 miles a day, so I reap the benefits of HALF my monthly gasoline bill!

Great little car. I've driven cross country with my 2 teen kids with no complaints. So far, no problems(it's a Honda, afterall). I easily keep up with traffic @75mph, and it has good passing ability."

-Yahoo

Jetta TDI Reviews

"A disaster of a car. Problems have included: new clutch, discharging batteries, coolant lossesand most distastrously, wiring loom burnt out. Do nt buy a VW.

Completely unreliable with poor service and exorbitant prices at VW main dealers"

-Carreview

"Nice power with lots of compliments. Reliability was a HUGE problem. only owned it for a year and a half. in the shop every 2 months, when they finally penciled me in to their already hectic schedule. radio failed twice. i had to drive around without a radio for months at a time. engine failed twice. they never called me back for the second installation of the engine coils. etc, etc, etc. service sucked big time, probably due to the fact that so many jetta's and golf's are breaking down all the time."

i gave up and traded in for a Honda.

-Autoweb (Lycos)

I bought my TDI about a Year and a half ago. Imagine my dismay when only 6 days after purchasing the car the brake light swith went out and I was left stranded with no way to get to work. So of course I called VW Roadside Service only to be informed that there was nothing they could do for me.

The guy that towed my car told me it was his third VW that week with the exact same problem.

Since then it has happened twice more. When I contacted VW Customer Service about this they told me that they had never heard of the problem. My friend has a '03 Jetta TDI and this same problem had occurred on her vehicle 5 times!! Finally they admitted that it was a problem. I have called customer service each time this has happened, each time I'm told that since I'm out of warranty I'm "basically screwed," yes, exact words. Now my right turn signal continuously burns out, I've had it replaced 3 times, my middle breaklight only works sometimes, I run out of windshield washer fluid about once every 2 weeks from a mysterious leak that no one can find, my airbag light has been on since about 3 months after purchasing, my cruise control doesn't even turn on let alone function, my heated mirrors only work when they want to, and the crappy Continental Tires it came with all ended up being defective and had to be replaced a few months ago. Even the VW emblem fell off!!!! I thought I would feel so proud driving a Volkswagen, and to some degree I do, but having to bum rides because the thing is in the shop again and again, it gets really embarassing and it's hard to feel proud of it when everyone knows your car is just a breakdown waiting to happen. I hate to say that I'll never own another Jetta TDI or any Volkswagen, but at the rate this is going a Honda doesn't sound so dull.

-Carreview

Jetta TDI problems are not insignificant.

misterme · January 2005

Refer to my last post, can you find any similar serious problems with an HCH?

"Anyone that thinks reliable=better has a very narrow view of what a vehicle should deliver to its owner"

A reliable car is indeed better than an unreliable one.

"the batteries in a hybred are considerd HAZZARDOUS WASTE and will never last even 200,000 miles"

Nimh batteries are not hazardous waste and can be discarded in a landfill...but much better to recycle them.

Hybrid batteries have exceeded 200K miles, according to taxi cab drivers who drive them.

"The TDI can travel at highways speeds for hours on end while still delivering about 55 MPG. Try that with a hybred"

Hours on end means nothing. My average MPG last year is over 58MPG.

"it would have been a cruel trip for all 4 passengers in a hybred"

Not sure what you mean. If I were to drive 80 hours straight with over 2 passengers I'd take the van, even if I had a TDI.

"The TDI is a REAL CAR and the hybred is a toy which will be out of vogue in a few years"

Not sure where you sources are.

New hybrid models are emerging, especially lately.

"Who would want to purchase a used hybred with the spector of replacing the expensive batteries and pay to get rid of the hazzardous waste?"

Once again, they are not haxardous waste.

Perhaps you are referring to the battery in your VW?

gagrice · January 2005

I did not look further than Edmund's. Here is a good testimonial for Honda reliability. Don't buy an HCH unless you live close to a good dealer.

I just purchased a new 2004 with 157 miles on it. I drive 64 miles each way to work from a river ranch 1 1/2 miles to a two lane highway along the river through hills. At about 600 miles I started seeing the red battery light come on during the first half hour, but not before 10 minutes into the trip, so vehicle was completely warm. I drive in the dark and window defrost and high beams are on. I have to stop to open and close a gate the first 500 yds. I first noticed the light when entering the highway. It stays on a second or two and then did not come on after that. The dealer told me it is a problem, but he can't find the problem. This concerns me, because the warranty will last me only 1 year on the car and 2.5 years on the IMA. After that I am paying for that time to look for the problem. I have a 100 mile round trip to the nearest Service facility. I am not happy with this car for this reason alone. I feel the cost of repairs will outweigh any fuel savings in the future. Anybody else experience similar problems?

You got that right mauto. I wish I could have read your message before I purchased mine. To all those who think Honda will do the right thing, think again. They are putting me through hell.

lapdogman, "Honda Civic Hybrid" #962, 19 Nov 2004 2:59 pm

lapdogman, "Honda Civic Hybrid" #976, 28 Nov 2004 6:14 pm

Kirstie_H · January 2005

That's going to be an issue regardless of what vehicle one purchases. If anything goes wrong and you live 100+ miles from the nearest service center, it's a major hassle. All cars have problems.

Also, no where in that anecdote does the member state that he wishes he'd purchased a Jetta TDI instead - for all we know, he could live miles from any shop!

kirstie_h

Roving Host

Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

larsb · January 2005

quote Gagrice-"Don't buy an HCH unless you live close to a good dealer."-end quote

I hope Gary does not believe that to be true ONLY for the HCH. ANY CAR BUILT TODAY can have a problem that requires a dealer. ALL MODERN CARS are technology laden and require special care - this is not a HYBRID phenomenon NOR is it NEW.

OK, here's the problem with the "my car is great" and "my car sucks" testimonial comparisons:

That sort of thing can be found ABOUT ANY CAR BUILT IN THE RECENT HISTORY OF MAN.

There are ALWAYS owners who are upset and feel robbed, and there are always owners who think their car is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Conclusions CANNOT BE DRAWN from INDIVIDUAL CASES.

As you have shown on this thread in the last few posts, ANYONE can find GOOD things about a car, and ANYONE can find BAD things about that same car.

I repeat: Conclusions may not be drawn from these individual cases. If so, a person who reads a BAD REVIEW would elminate that car. Then if they were shown a GOOD REVIEW, they would again want to buy the car. You see how that cannot work to draw proper conclusions?

*THAT IS WHY THERE ARE AGENCIES LIKE Consumer Reports and JD Power WHO DO VAST AMOUNTS OF DATA COLLECTION AND PRESENT IT FOR OUR CONSUMPTION.*

And By gosh, WHO CARES who is paying them? They are not LYING about the cars !! They are reporting ACTUAL OWNER PROBLEMS and basing ratings on those problems. IT'S NOT GUESSING - IT'S NOT ESTIMATION - IT'S FACT, based on REAL OWNERS with REAL PROBLEMS.

You take 10,000 owner reports and you base conclusions on the data. That's normal scientific method.

So sure, we can all find bad HCH complaints and a lot MORE bad Jetta TDI complaints on the web. But that really tells us NOTHING that can be used to draw a conclusion.

What CAN be used to draw a logical conclusion is a compilation of reports from THOUSANDS of owners. That's what CR and JDP give us. Since they use the largest statistical base, THEY Are the ones whose data can be trusted.

gagrice · January 2005

THAT IS WHY THERE ARE AGENCIES LIKE Consumer Reports and JD Power WHO DO VAST AMOUNTS OF DATA COLLECTION AND PRESENT IT FOR OUR CONSUMPTION.*

As long as you trust CR here is what they have to say about the HCH.

Consumer Reports has found that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets -- the Civic Hybrid averaging 26 mpg in the city, the Toyota Prius 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Highway mileage is typically closer to EPA estimates.

ruking1 · January 2005

I am glad you agree with me on the RATE!

So if you disagree that conclusions can not be drawn with ANY INDIVIDUAL cases, then how can you draw conclusions about the vast data collection and say that Honda or VW is either bad or good??

..."What CAN be used to draw a logical conclusion is a compilation of reports from THOUSANDS of owners. That's what CR and JDP give us. Since they use the largest statistical base, THEY Are the ones whose data can be trusted. "...

You have just denied the validity of a major source of DATA!!?? Then you draw upon the that SAME denied data and say it can be trusted!!???

Again, most cars will be good and that is HONDA AND VW !! Or more technically run the statistical gambit in its bell shaped curve.

I can see why you WAX on and on. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method. I am ok with your individual biases, but to say your individual biases are supported by the "VALID" data when you draw the conclusions from data you say is invalid is disingenuous at best.

This is not to say that there is no "buyer beware" utility. Neither Honda or VW (nor any other OEM) will cop to its actual rates. Instead they gather real and perceptual data from sources like JD Powers and Consumer Reports.

larsb · January 2005

quote gagrice-"Consumer Reports has found that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets -- the Civic Hybrid averaging 26 mpg in the city, the Toyota Prius 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Highway mileage is typically closer to EPA estimates."-end quote

That indicates the BEAUTY of the Hybrid Powertrain - it gives owners the CAPABILITY to do much better than any published test !!

My "lifetime" MPG on my HCH was 34.4 when I bought the car. In about 8,000 miles of driving, the "lifetime" MPG for the car is now at 42.0 MPG. My personal MPG for the 8,000 miles is sitting at 47.3 MPG.

My current tank is 56.0 MPG after 345 miles, and my tank is STILL HALF FULL ! I'm shooting for my first 700 Mile Tank, in the middle of Winter.

Amazing Technology !!!

larsb · January 2005

quote ruking1-"I can see why you WAX on and on. Your statements indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method."-end quote

Acutally, I completely understand the scientific method which indicates that a conclusion cannot be drawn from one single test. It requires multiple data points to come to a data-driven result.

That's why human drug testing uses DOZENS of people, and not just one person.

gagrice · January 2005

What CAN be used to draw a logical conclusion is a compilation of reports from THOUSANDS of owners. That's what CR and JDP give us. Since they use the largest statistical base, THEY Are the ones whose data can be trusted.

It is a tool that can be used. Just as the EPA & IIHS for safety. All I pointed out is what people are saying on Edmund's about the two cars we are debating. I went on Google and there are lots of stories and complaints on everything. The conclusion I would draw from that is that the complaints & issues are overblown on both cars. The one thing that does stand out for me is the dealers are the key. VW dealers are less responsive than Honda dealers as a whole. The other over riding conclusion that I get is that owners of both the Jetta TDI & HCH are happy with their cars. For me the choice of a Wagon is very high on my list of wants. The flexibility of diesel and biodiesel is another important plus. I would say for someone that needs a good commuter/family sedan, the HCH is a good choice.

ruking1 · January 2005

As you wax ON:

..."Acutally, I completely understand the scientific method which indicates that a conclusion cannot be drawn from one single test. It requires multiple data points to come to a data-driven result.

That's why human drug testing uses DOZENS of people, and not just one person. "...

Again, if you have forgotten even you (and me for sure) are talking of RATE!!!??? So for example the fleet of manufactured Civics, Jetta's etc that say hit N America!!???

gagrice · January 2005

As with any other car, how you drive is important. "I've been driving a Honda Civic Hybrid car in the Washington, DC area for a year ... and my gas mileage is averaging 47 to 50 MPG," one reader told us. We'll bet he doesn't speed away from lights and aggressively race other cars to gain some imaginary advantage.

If you add up the much higher cost of a hybrid over a similar small car, you'll be hard-pressed to find any overall savings. The most fuel-efficient car available today is the VW Jetta Diesel. It really does get 45 miles per gallon, costs a lot less than a hybrid, is much simpler and should therefore be much more reliable.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/newsletters/20040517.html

john500 · January 2005

*THAT IS WHY THERE ARE AGENCIES LIKE Consumer Reports and JD Power WHO DO VAST AMOUNTS OF DATA COLLECTION AND PRESENT IT FOR OUR CONSUMPTION.*

This year will be a good test for Consumer Reports. Both the Odyssey and the Accord have had major recalls in 2004. If you don't see a black mark in any of the categories, then you might take Consumers Reports with a grain of salt or redefine what a "problem" is.

Kirstie_H · January 2005

OK, yet again, we've managed to beat a conversation to death - either you believe in CR and JDP or you don't. Agree to disagree. Move on.

And cut out the personal comments and SHOUTING, now.

kirstie_h

Roving Host

Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

ruking1 · January 2005

Yes, I think the utility of all this data collection is to: market better, quality control, etc. From a buyer or consumers perspective, to product select better.

For me, CR and or JDP's etc are TOOLs in product selection of the many that are out there both products and tools. So for example, using a Hybrid Honda Civic, Honda Civic gasser, VW TDI, you can analyze seemingly dissimilar products and weighting them as one sees fit. So for example, if one absolutely has to make a statement as to having to have the one that so called pollutes the least, or ANY parameters for that matter and is willing to pay for it, (through the nose, but that that is my personal take) why should he/she not be able to do it???

larsb · January 2005

"And cut out the personal comments and SHOUTING, now. "

I have said before, others may use CAPS for shouting, but I use it in the "normal grammatical manner" meaning to place EMPHASIS.

I don't shout.....:)

ruking1 · January 2005

There is a VC supported start up company (Nanostellar) in Menlo Park, CA that is working on a Nanotechnology application: to at least half the cost of a typical platinum catalytic converter (100-300 oem cost)(by eventually substituting lower cost nano materials) and more interestingly, to improve on platinums emissions-reducing qualities, by reducing the amount of nitrious oxides not currently removed by platinium based catalytic converters.

SJMN, Wed, Jan 19,2005, "BusinessBriefing" pg 2c."Cleaning up cars at atomic level."

My take is it bodes well for both hybrids, gassers and diesels.

larsb · January 2005

quote john500-"This year will be a good test for Consumer Reports. Both the Odyssey and the Accord have had major recalls in 2004. If you don't see a black mark in any of the categories, then you might take Consumers Reports with a grain of salt or redefine what a "problem" is."-end quote

A recall does not count any more than a single defect, and it shouldn't.

Because a recalled problem is something easily fixable and which will usually not re-occur after the repair due of the original defect.

It's nothing more than something that is wrong and can be repaired.

That is far different from the "serious engine problems" category assigned to 1999-2001 Jetta vehicles.

gagrice · January 2005

Because a recalled problem is something easily fixable and which will usually not re-occur after the repair due of the original defect.

I don't consider a transmission going out in the middle of Kansas a insignificant repair. Or a vehicle catching on fire driving down the Interstate. I think you need to check out these recalls. They are not for insignias falling off the car. Plus Honda is still wrestling with the auto transmission failures to date. Honda has lost a lot of it's glitter and sales recently.

larsb · January 2005

quote gagrice-"The most fuel-efficient car available today is the VW Jetta Diesel. It really does get 45 miles per gallon, costs a lot less than a hybrid, is much simpler and should therefore be much more reliable."-end quote

That is the author's opinion - not based on any facts really.

Jetta's depreciate MUCH faster than Civics, they are in the shop more often, and comparing the cleanest USA Jetta TDI and the cleanest USA Civic Hybrid shows the HCH cleaner. AND right now, diesel is about 15-20 cents higher per gallon (and has been for at least 8 months) so it is not less costly to fuel the TDI.

And do not "cost a lot less than a Hybrid" either, unless you overpay for a Prius....

ruking1 · January 2005

And the beat waxes on...

..."That is the author's opinion - not based on any facts really.

Jetta's depreciate MUCH faster than Civics, they are in the shop more often, and comparing the cleanest USA Jetta TDI and the cleanest USA Civic Hybrid shows the HCH cleaner. AND right now, diesel is about 15-20 cents higher per gallon (and has been for at least 8 months) so it is not less costly to fuel the TDI.

And do not "cost a lot less than a Hybrid" either, unless you overpay for a Prius.... "...

Well, I guess a significant to all TDI owners can be lying. The same can be inferred about Honda Hybrid owners? So why is it that JDP or CR dont strap these scofflaw data points to a polygraph to control for this horid variable!? Maybe there is a secret oath you have to swear if you get a TDI/Hybrid?

So let us drift back to reality.

1. 45 mpg is super easy to achieve on a TDI

2. In fact my 2003 TDI sells for more with 47,000 used than when new.

3. Honda is probably one of the least depreciating vehicles at 5% or so per year (-600 to -925 per year), the last I figured. 4. In the total scheme of things, the emissions of the Hybrids and VW Jetta TDI,separately or even together, approaches total insignificance!

Sylvia · January 2005

Hey guys...we seem to be going all over the map. Let's digress for just a moment...seems like there are 3-4 different threads taking place that would be better served by having separate/dedicated discussions.

Consumer Reports v. JD Powers (any car review can be discussed here)

New technologies to improve emissions

I'll get these discussions going, but if this discussion doesn't stay only on TDI (not diesel technologies) v. Civic Hybrid, it will be closed.

ruking1 · January 2005

On point, the fact of the matter is that diesel is at a analogous/similar point in the late 70's when "WE" made the switch from leaded regular to unleaded regular. How well would a hybrid for example run with leaded regular?

The interesting thing is the TDI diesel is capable of running BOTH (and or mixed) the current and the new 2006/2007 low sulfur diesel!

Another moniker diesel fuel wears is of "alternative" fuel. What does this mean in English? This means that no matter what, the gasser hybrid HAS to burn refinery fuel. Where does refinery fuel come from? Well if you believe the enviromentalists: FOREIGN! (app 50%) The other is use of hybrid does not lessen our dependence on "foreign" petroleum products. Contrast that with soybean based diesel fuel grown DOMESTICALLY!??

I will leave it at that for I do not want to encourage another WAXING session.

larsb · January 2005

going to be limited in where it can be purchased. It will likely be in far fewer locations than even CNG refueling spots for the first few months.

"Clean" diesel was at first available only in one European country, then it slowly spread. It will spread slowly in the USA also, no doubt, because of the diesel stigma we have over here.

ruking1 · January 2005

You object to the real world ramp up time, etc.?

So called "Clean" diesel has been and is currently available. The real issue?:mainstream cost!! Biodiesel has/is also available. Again, the real issue?:mainstream cost!!

larsb · January 2005

wanted clean diesel as soon as I could get it, sure I would object !! Why would I be happy with being forced to WAIT?

Lucky for me I drive a HCH....:)

ruking1 · January 2005

Really it is no bother, but in fact it does highlight that government can be a help and a hindrance.

misterme · January 2005

I've read somewhere in this flurry of posts that you won't get the EPA rating in an HCH, while the TDI gets 45MPG. Period.

Does every Jetta TDI get 45MPG regardless of driving habit or individual machine?

I can't make a claim for every HCH but the database at green hybrid lists 63 HCH's that show an average of 67MPG reported by real owners who drive them. That's EPA rating.

If the TDI only gets 45MPG that is pretty poor, especially in light of a car with so much built in baggage.

(No, not luggage but real issues previously discussed here)

When one shops for a new car they need to look at data from multiple sources.

Auto mags can be paid off(2 years ago my friend found a shining article on Prius. he didn't notice the "Paid Advertisement" in micro print at the end.

You have to look at all sources: all mags, internet sites (Like Edmunds) and what people are reporting.

Lots of sources report hybrids as having less than expected MPG results. Reading only that I'd never have bought one. But then I found some people are getting +100MPG in an Insight rated 61/66MPG and +60MPG in an HCH rated at 47/51.

Something must be good with a technology that can get 165% better than its EPA rating, so I bought it.

Glad I did, as over the year it ran about 128% over EPA.

Will everyone driving an HCH average +60MPG? NO!

Most average the EPA of 47.

Still, I saved over $5000 in fuel alone last year as compared to the car it replaced. ('04 Dodge Spirit)

ruking1 · January 2005

High 60's can be gotten out of a TDI. But I would say that the folks who drive the TDI like HCH and vice versa will tend to do better.

While I am glad you have saved 5000 in fuel costs alone over your 04 Dodge Spirit,I am also sure you must also be excited (over the savings between a HCH and a Dodge Spirit)

A more direct analysis of Honda Civic (12,500) vs Honda Civic Hybrid (20,000) indicates a 7500 dollar difference. So even with 47 mpg vs 35-38 mpg (Civic gasser) BE on this comparo is over 300,000 to 500,000 miles.

So if BE is an important weight or measure, this might be an easy comparison.

electrictroy · January 2005

"amazing technology"????? More like... "inconsistent technology". If you drive like a snail you can get +10mpg over the EPA estimates (just like any non-hybrid car), but drive "normal" like everyone else, and your hybrid will be no better than a non-hybrid.

VW vw. Honda quality

It appears that Honda is actually *worse* in flaws. Perhaps Honda has started slacking in their quality assurance, like American carmakers?

VW FLAWS: Engine Sludge  Ignition Coils  Oil Burning  Engine Fires  Paint

HONDA FLAWS:  Airbags  Brakes  Bumpers  Engine Fires  Ignition switch  Peeling Paint  Radiator  Transmission  Windshield

source: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/manufacturers.htm

larsb · January 2005

quote E-Troy:-"amazing technology"????? More like... "inconsistent technology". If you drive like a snail you can get +10mpg over the EPA estimates (just like any non-hybrid car), but drive "normal" like everyone else, and your hybrid will be no better than a non-hybrid."

You cannot get great numbers out of most non-Hybrids even driving like a snail because you do not have a "realtime MPG" gauge on the non-hybrids that lets you adjust your driving style at THAT MOMENT to maximize your efficiency.

If you want to "drive like any other car" then you should buy "another car" besides a Hybrid. The intent/goal of the High MPG Hybrids (Insight/Prius/HCH) is to maximize your MPG and lower your fuel bill.

If that's not what you want to do, then buy a different car.

And by the by: Show me a diesel car available for sale in the USA that has an owner who has reported 50+ MPG "consistently" since the car was new. And someone who has a 59 MPG 700 mile tank. Show me. (not holding my breath)
You know, Troy, that there are MULTIPLE Hybrid owners who have done this.

How about 859 mi @ 64.8 mpg in an HCH...: Show me a 4-door TDI that can do that....

gagrice · January 2005

I can't make a claim for every HCH but the database at green hybrid lists 63 HCH's that show an average of 67MPG reported by real owners who drive them. That's EPA rating.

I think you meant to say 47 mpg combined. That is very close to the EPA estimate. I think most of the bruhaw was over the Prius 60 mpg city rating that rarely materializes.

Glad I did, as over the year it ran about 128% over EPA

The way I calculate, if the EPA is 48 mpg combined that would be about 109 mpg combined. I did not excel in math so I could be wrong.

electrictroy · January 2005

There are many, many drivers at www.tdiclub.com that drive slow & consistently get over 50 mpg. A few have even achieved 60+ mpg. Go check for yourself.

troy

larsb · January 2005

Yes, I saw some BEETLE TDI numbers at 62.

This is a JETTA TDI vs HCH forum, and I have yet to see any reports of Jetta TDIs getting 64+ MPG, or consistently averaging 50+ like the HCH can do.

larsb · January 2005

"Based on an on-going mileage poll in this forum, more than 35% of owners of 2003-and-earlier TDIs with manual transmissions report mileage in the 40-45 MPG range. And another 8% report less than 40 MPG. So you are most likely not doing anything wrong. Your problem is that you are comparing your mileage to the 56% or so who who drive mostly on the highway."

Once again, the fact that TDIs suffer in city driving is acknowledged. Back to my post from a few days ago:

"I think it boils down to these decision points:

If you want the greener of the two, buy the HCH.

If you do a lot of 70 MPH hwy cruising or commuting, get the Jetta.

If you want a car that will stay out of the shop better and break down less often, get the HCH.

If you want to be able to drive it like a regular car and still get close to EPA MPG numbers, get the Jetta.

If your commute is short or is mostly City driving, get the HCH.

If you think diesel is the greatest thing since sliced bread (and you know who you are out there) then get the Jetta.

If you like cool new technology, and like to play the "how high can my MPG get?" game, get the HCH.

I think that boils it down to brass tacks. This thread can now be closed.

"

That sums it pretty good...

ruking1 · January 2005

"Yes, I saw some BEETLE TDI numbers at 62.

This is a JETTA TDI vs HCH forum, and I have yet to see any reports of Jetta TDIs getting 64+ MPG, or consistently averaging 50+ like the HCH can do. "

Why would that matter? You have already gone on record saying when it comes to TDI's one can not draw a conclusion on the data ?

Here's another one.

If I drove your HCH like I drive my TDI, I would get far less mpg than the TDI. And the HCH would not perform as well!!!

It is totally misleading to not acknowledge or gloss over the same driving behaviors for those that are bent on getting the max mileage both in the TDI and HCH.

larsb · January 2005

I never said that.
What I said was "do not make a decision based on one single piece of data."

And yes, it IS important data that users can get 64+ MPG from an HCH and cannot from a TDI, in the light of

COMPARSION

for reasons of trying to decide which car fits their need better.

All available data should be considered, and this is one piece of it, just like all other VALID sources.

Don't make a decision based on ONE FACT alone, but take in all information that applies to your decision making goal.

03accordman · January 2005

Its ironic that you quote consumer affairs, but choose to ignore CR, JDP, Edmunds etc. It is a well known fact that VW reliability has fallen in the past few years. You conveniently forget the various serious problems as seen in the Edmunds forums about VWs while listing Honda flaws. Please go to those forums and then give us an unbiased posting.

larsb · January 2005

quote ruking1-"If I drove your HCH like I drive my TDI, I would get far less mpg than the TDI. And the HCH would not perform as well!!!"-end quote

That's absolutely true. But it's also true that I drove 3.1 miles after a fillup and got 93 MPG in my HCH cruising at 34 MPH, and you cannot do THAT in a TDI.

So all this is fun, but what matters is choosing the car that fits YOU best.

I happen to think FAR FAR more buyers are suited for an HCH than are suited for the TDI, because MOST PEOPLE have a combination of city and hwy driving in their commute, where the HCH is better, and do not just get on a freeway and go 70 MPH to their workplace, which is where the TDI is better.

ruking1 · January 2005

"That's absolutely true. But it's also true that I drove 3.1 miles after a fillup and got 93 MPG in my HCH cruising at 34 MPH, and you cannot do THAT in a TDI. "

Well for sure I am glad you are not totally in LA LA land.

I would not want to drive 3.1 miles to cruise at 34 mpg especially to inflate my mpg readings. I can get INXS of 65 mpg instantaneous when I lift off the throttle with a Corvette Z06. SO WHAT????

I also think you do a disservice to continually fan the flames of the Hybrid/gasser and TDI adversarial fire, especially when (for folks that want or need it) the TDI would do probably better than a gasser mated to a hybrid. If a TDI (mated to a hybrid) is off 20% of the time due to hybrid technology, then that 49 EPA rated turns easily into 58.8 mpg! As you have pined incessantly: what is not to like??

larsb · January 2005

quote ruking1-"I would not want to drive 3.1 miles to cruise at 34 mpg to inflate my mpg readings."-end quote

That was not a MPG inflation drive - that was just the first three miles of normal driving after my fillup, on the way back to my house !! I did nothing out of the ordinary - the speed limit on the road was 35 MPH. I just caught all the lights green for the first three miles and the MPG was what it was !!!

This is a forum for people to compare the values and problems of these two cars. They both have values and both have problems.

Any and all issues we bring up that help a person make the best decision for themselves is valuable info.

I am in the camp which belives the Civic Hybrid is a superior commuter vehicle than the Jetta TDI.

I will give my opinions, my own data, and I will point out important information in the goal of helping people and persuading them to my side.

Nothing "adversarial" in my approach - I do not make personal attacks or make fun of anyone.

ruking1 · January 2005

Ah! Marketing!!!!

larsb · January 2005

Sure, I think Hybrids are important to the environment in the short term. They will eventually be replaced by something cleaner and more efficient, but for now, they are the best compromise. You could pollute less by buying a Civic GX and running CNG, but that car has a 210-250 miles per tank limit.

Anything that puts less dirt into the air and keeps more money in car buyer's wallets is a good thing.

If we don't buy the Hybrids, the carmakers will stop building them, then we ALL Suffer.

ruking1 · January 2005

Given the inconsequential numbers of hybrids vs 230 M USA registered vehicles, the actual results are almost totally insignificant.

pg 18,

population: 290,809,777

registered vehicles: 230,199,000

miles traveled 2,879,894 M miles (NHTSA projections)

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/2003EARelease.pd- - - - - - - f

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

The REAL GAME is to capture the 15-30 and up year engine and drive train technology trends. It is also important not to invest in technology with a limited or dead ended lifespan. (like the ill fated electric cars)You don't even see environmentalists driving these! They were one of the biggest advocates at the time.

No less a personage than the CEO of VW, has gone on record to agree with you or is it you agree with him: on the short term!? short term meaning 30 years or a bit more. His take is off the shelf we have it now in the diesel and he anticipates diesel will be the "GO TO" for the next generation and one half 30-45 years or more.

Honda understands this also. Evidence? The Honda man who invented the VTEC was commission to do a Honda Diesel from scratch!!?? Why do a diesel from scratch rather than continue to buy from ISUZU? WW patent and subsequent licensing rights.

Off topic, BUT:

It was a very "wonderkin" project. I think the concept to market was like 3-5 years!!!

ruking1 · January 2005

"ruking1 #396

"Honda Civic (12,500)"

Why stop at a base Civic?

It's previously stated there are other new car MSRP for under $10K. "

The issue here is/was Honda vs VW? or did we miss something? BE analysis nexus was Honda Civic with Honda Civic Hybrid (same platform? Different engine and drivetrain componentry)

z28_sedan · January 2005

"I think it boils down to these decision points:

If you want the greener of the two, buy the HCH.

If you do a lot of 70 MPH hwy cruising or commuting, get the Jetta.

If you want a car that will stay out of the shop better and break down less often, get the HCH.

If you want to be able to drive it like a regular car and still get close to EPA MPG numbers, get the Jetta.

If your commute is short or is mostly City driving, get the HCH.

If you think diesel is the greatest thing since sliced bread (and you know who you are out there) then get the Jetta.

If you like cool new technology, and like to play the "how high can my MPG get?" game, get the HCH.

I think that boils it down to brass tacks. This thread can now be closed.

"

Good points. Here are a few more:

If you want to ride smoother and quieter get the HCH.

If you want to use a fuel which is 100% domestic and renewable (B100), get the Jetta TDI.

If you want a car right now but can't afford $20K, get a used Jetta TDI (can be had from ~$8K on up depending on year, mileage, etc.).

I'm not sure what all the fighting is about. I was considering both (along with a Prius and a TDI Passat). They're all good choices, IMHO. I chose a TDI Jetta because I could get a used one for $11K, I drive mostly highway, and I want to eventually run B100.

misterme · January 2005

Somehow that got mixed in the wrong thread.

Thanks for pointing that out ruking1.

I've deleted the post.

gagrice · January 2005

that was just the first three miles of normal driving after my fillup

I hate to change the subject. Do you know anyone with an HCH that has a very short 3-4 mile commute. I would be curious as to the overall mileage that person gets. The 63 people on Green hybrid all have fairly long commutes. I would also be curious about the TDI mileage on short trips. My average trip to go shopping is 3 miles. When I first started looking at the Prius I was told I would be lucky to get 30 mpg with short trips. It takes longer to warm the hybrid to optimum running temperature. I get the same on my Suburban tank in and tank out 13.5 to 14 mpg. Unless I take a long trip. That is with the truck sitting for several weeks at a time while I am at work.

larsb · January 2005

quote z28_sedan-"'m not sure what all the fighting is about. I was considering both (along with a Prius and a TDI Passat). They're all good choices, IMHO. I chose a TDI Jetta because I could get a used one for $11K, I drive mostly highway, and I want to eventually run B100."-end quote

GREAT POST !! That's EXACTLY what I have been trying to show on this forum.

People should find the car that fits their needs and their budget, and BUY IT !!

Here is an example of a chap who had the Jetta TDI as his best choice and bought it.

I happen to think that choice is in the minority, but it shows what I have been pointing out.

I chose the HCH because it met my budget and my needs and I LIKE spending less than $54 a month on fuel, which is where I have been in the last 6 months.

Jetta TDI vs. Civic Hybrid

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