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What's your reason for buying a Hybrid?
Is it for the environment? Is it to save trips to the gas station? What's your reason?
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Also looking for high reliability, except my goal is pretty high: Acura, Honda, Lexus, Toyota
The performance should be equal to the average of existing cars and not less. The 0-60 mph time should be around 8.5-9.0 seconds or better.
Handing doesn't have to be that good, but braking should at least be as short as average.
YMMV,
MidCow
less noise, pollution, congestion, fuel use, wear n tear on the roads etc.
oh yea want to save money also and my bike and trailer
bicycle & trailer does that and more but sometimes I need a smog machine.
___Pure 100% highway mileage and she (the 5-speed insight) has delivered it in spades
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I find that some of the messages border on the old "mine is bigger than yours" syndrome. I would think that people who subscribe to this list would have foremost in their minds the desire to help our Earth's ecology . What humankind is doing to our environment is damaging and ultimately very dangerous to our planet. Future generations need us to begin now to clean up our act.
And so I try to do my small part through setting my thermostat to 68 in the winter and doing without airconditioning through most of the summer. I feel that hybrids, be they Hondas, Toyotas, soon to be Fords, whatever, are an important way to improve on automobile pollution, and so I drive one. Hybrids are the smart way to entice a great body of drivers to do their part, until something better comes along in 15-20 years.
Somewhat expensive? yes. But as the sales volume increases, so the prices will decrease.
Choosing a particular hybrid is a personal taste. That it may not be your choice merely improves on the diversity seen on the road. It's not wrong to drive a Honda Civic hybrid or Insight or a Toyota Prius, or a soon to be HAH. The more the merrier - we are all doing the right thing! So please let's not bicker ;>)
You will find here many automotive enthusiasts who are excited about new technologies and are also willing to debate and demand more from the automotive industry.
People who own hybrids bought them for a variety of reasons - not all being for ecological reasons. Some just think the technology is cool. Please see the discussion What's your reason for buying a hybrid
Now, back to the discussion at hand - the Honda Accord 2005
1. Improved performance via more power when needed (comparable to V6 power in family sedans)
2. Improved fuel economy (30+ mpg)
3. Improved emissions (SULEV/PZEVrated)
4. AWD without the need of a standard mechanical/electrical AWD system
IMO, above four items are potential strengths of hybrid technology. Couple them to
- A well-balanced compromise between ride comfort and handling
- Manual Gearbox or Clutchless Manual/semi-automatic transmission (No CVT please)
- Packaged with midsize sedan/hatchback utility.
And it will be all that I want.
Right now, hybrids are basically offering the same car as the ICE counterparts with improved fuel economy, but then are charging $3-5K more. So if you only keep a car for 5-6 years, you're losing money. If in the future hybrids offer something more, like better performance, then that might be worth paying for. But if their selling point is fuel economy alone, then I better not be paying much more for it.
Where can you get a car that has ALL the features a loaded Prius has for 26k and STILL get a minumum of 45 MPG overall? Anyone know??
A similarly equipped Camry LE ( no SKS ) lists at $21.5.... less $500 rebate.. but there is a relative lack of them so they are going firmly in the $20-21K range.
TMV has no bearing now because the dealers in the mid Atl now have .. 9 days of Inventory on hand... and that includes a massive amount of 4 Runners. Corolla's and Camry's are now running 3-6 days of inventory. TMV here is sticker less rebate ( why a rebate? Who knows? ).
The Prius Pkge 2 and the Camry LE are only abt $1-2K apart after rebate on the Camry. The Current Tax Deduction brings this down to abt $1K but next year the lower priced vehicle should be the Prius. Toyota is going to raise the price on the Prius for sure next month. But they will also have a brand spanking new Camry in March will initially be bringing sticker also. The Prius will be lower than the Camry through all of next yr.
kdhspyder
I'm all for appreciation and development of hybrid technology but it is ridiculous, IMO, to use "gizmos for $26K" argument in a car that looks like another economy hatchback. I picture that as putting lipstick on a monkey. "45 mpg" is rendered meaningless if one ends up spending thousands more than average price of a new car (in the USA) to get just a few additional features like curtain airbags, keyless start (actually very common in economy cars abroad, esp Japan), homelink (big deal!), navigation system (also quite common in economy cars abroad), stability control and HID. In a mass produced car, all this should cost no more than $3000 (Toyota charges $2K more) in a $20K car.
And that would make it a very poor reason for me to buy a hybrid (to get more gizmos), with or without being able to get 45 mpg. Added cost is just not worth it unless the car "feels" like a $25K car to start with, and performs like one as well.
So.. here we go again:
Name an equivalent car sold in the US for LESS than 26k that has the following:
4 doors with hatch and a 106.3 wheelbase
Gets a minimum of 45 MPG overall
Has Navigation with voice control
Has smart entry exit (Audi and Mercedes don't even have this!!!)
Bluetooth connectivity (look Ma! no hands!!!)
Steering wheel controls for climate, radio and NAV
Integrated satellite radio
Side curtain airbags
Five star safety rating for frontal crash
Four star safety rating for side crash (w/o curtains)
CVT Trans
Electric A/C
HID Headlights
Vehicle Stability Control
Traction Control
Power button (actually a cool safety feature)
I'm sure I missed some as there are SO many features this car has. Get used to the fact that this car and other hybrids are here to stay. This car has far surpassed my expectations. FYI... last car was an Audi allroad quattro & a Mercedes C320. And no... I won't trade back! That would be a step BACKWARDS!
As I said, I’m not against hybrids. You may have seen me argue more often for them (and almost never against them) for good reasons. I want to see hybrid technology evolve, and hopefully I will drive one sometime soon.
BUT, you give all the wrong reasons. Are you sure Prius has the features for under $26K because it is a hybrid? If not, what is the point of making an extensive list of relatively expensive options list as a strength of the car?
Name an equivalent car sold in the US for LESS than 26k that has the following
I can’t think of an equivalent car, because it makes little sense to offer the performance of an economy car packaged at near luxury price tag. An Acura TSX, a midsize sedan, may not get you 45 mpg (I will give that to you), but it will get you performance in return, and comes with
Standard Curtain Airbags
Stability Assist w/Traction Control
HID
Homelink
Navigation System w/Voice Controls
(Redundant) Steering Wheel Controls
Satellite Radio
Five Star Safety ratings (don’t have a choice to get 4-star side rating because don’t have an option to not get one without curtain airbags)
Leather Seats
Heated Seats & Outside Mirrors
Auto Dimming Rear View Mirrors
Moon Roof
Telescoping Steering Wheel
High Intensity Discharge Head Lamps
Dual Zone Auto Climate Control
Unequal length double wishbone front and 5-link double wishbone rear suspension
and actually a choice of transmission: Sport Shift Auto or 6-speed Manual. Don’t have to “deal with” CVT alone.
One doesn’t have to spend $47K to get features like these in cars. And while it should be easy for Honda to dump all the features you mention (and more) for $10K in Civic HX (coupe/sedan or hatchback form), I certainly wouldn’t want to brag about it.
So - the discussion here is what is your reason - and not if that reason is right or wrong according to others. Stating the reason is fine, punishing someone for their reasons is not.
But then, you bring up "106.3 inch wheelbase" as a point, but could care less about leather seats.
Don't compare versatility of a economy hatchback to that of "luxury" (keyword) sedans. It makes no sense.
Mazda MX6
Honda Accord
Audi A3 (when it finally arrives)
BMW X3
Sorry... money is not a factor. I get a generous car allowance from my company.
At $26K, the car is hardly an “economy” car. Even a Chevy Aveo wouldn’t be, because if you add up all the features to an Aveo, it might cost just as much. :-)
Getting back to cars, Camry doesn’t have to keep up with M3 either, but it comes with IRS. Must be a reason, right? A lot of hoopla was made when 2001 Civic was given a Macpherson strut front suspension instead of the decade old tradition of double wishbones. Imagine if Honda replaced the reactive link double wishbone rear suspension with torsion beam axle rear suspension.
Yes, cost can be a factor, that is why Honda’s cheapest platform (we don’t have a car in the USA/Canada based on that platform) uses semi-independent rear suspension, but Civic and up, it had to be better, for better ride quality and handling. If you want to compare cars based on features, make sure you include “all” the features.
And suspension setup does affect ride quality/handling, otherwise there is no reason for anybody to develop fancy suspension systems.
You can read about various suspension setups here.
As long as it is "green" people can buy whatever they want!
Emissions matter, what the vehicle looks like doesn't.
JOHN
107.1 inch
107.3 inch
Just so that you know, the second wheelbase is for BMW 3-series sedan, which can be classified as (barely) a compact, while the shorter wheelbase is that of Camry.
I could care less about why you bought a hybrid, as long as you don't go on challenging others with statements like this...
"Not ONE person has been able to list a car(s) that have the SAME features of the Prius for LESS money!"
Well, does Prius the features that some cars offer for the money? NO. It is not supposed to. Regarding envy, it will be end of the world the day I brought home this Prius for $26K. ;-)
___So you purchased your Prius II and it has a better ride because of its Echo/Corolla/Prius cheap torsion beam rear suspension rather then the independent suspension of a Toyota Camry or Avalon, Lexus LS, GS, ES, IS, SC, LX, GX, RX, Honda Accord, Acura RL, TL, TSX, RSX, NSX, and MDX?
http://www.lexus.com/models/glossary.html?entry=indsusp
Each wheel on an axle is sprung separately and can react independently to bumps - a small bump affecting one side does not affect the other. This contrasts with a non-independent (rigid, beam or solid axle) where the wheels are directly connected, and a bump at one end will affect the other. All Lexus passenger cars have fully independent suspension systems.
___I guess Toyota had better straighten this mess out knowing full well that they are spending upwards of $500 more to suspend their luxury vehicles with independent suspensions when they could be using the cheap Torsion beam setup from the Echo, Corolla, or Prius lines instead?
___When Hybrid’s start using the underpinnings of the more luxurious vehicles, (HH and RXh come to mind), then they will have the ride of those same more luxurious vehicles. As it stands, the skinny Integrity tires and Echo/Corolla suspension HW give it the ride of a compact sedan, not a lux automobile.
___As for your MB, I haven’t a clue as to how it rides. It might have been suspended for cornering instead?
___I purchased the used Insight for $10K because of its fuel economy and it has exceeded my expectations for many months now. At $20K +, it wouldn’t have made any sense whatsoever.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
For my part, I'd like to see hybrid vehicles develop beyond the expensive curiosities that have been offered thus far and to constitute a real alternative for "main stream" purchasers - those who are not looking for a better hybrid vehicle, just a better vehicle and if that vehicle happens to be a hybrid at the right price, they'll buy it.
We are definitely on that road. HSD will become available on vehicles that are already extremely popular (like Highlander & Camry) as time proceeds. That aspect alone is a guarantee to stir more interest.
And then there are some current hybrid owners that have intentionally sacrificed MPG for the sake of widening the appeal of those vehicles, by testing new options in real-world situations. In my particular case, I have willingly accepted a 2.5 MPG loss to achieve a noticable improvement in traction, by upgrading to premium grade tires. So those that have to deal with a lot of rain, snow, and ice will know that option is available on hybrids too.
JOHN
Does this profile fit you? If so, the reporter would love to talk with you.
If interested, please email pkrebs@edmunds.com no later than Friday, July 23 with your name and daytime contact information.
todays hybrids are main stream we don't realize it yet, thats not to say your going to end up in a purple people eater but a 4.0 liter jeep isn't needed to visit the next door neighbor's garage sale.
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Buy a Honda Insight instead of a Land Rover Discovery - the Insight gets 60 miles to the gallon in the city, 66 miles on the highway.
Drive it 12,000 miles a year. At 60 miles a gallon, that's 200 gallons a year. At $2 a gallon, $400 a year for fuel.
Land Rover Discovery gets 12 miles a gallon in the city, or 1,000 gallons for the same trips. That's $2,000 a year fuel costs.
That adds up to $8,000 over five years, $32,000 if you keep it up over 20.
If you buy the Honda and invest the fuel savings, which come to $133.33 a month and put it into a good stock fund and make an average of 7 percent a year, you'd have $69,500 after 20 years.
The Honda goes for about $20,000, the Land Rover for about $40,000. If you took out a five-year, zero-down loan at a typical rate today of 5.8 percent, payments on the Land Rover would be about $770 a month. The Honda would cost just $385 a month.
Assuming you buy the cheaper car and invest a $385-a-month savings for 20 years: At a 7 percent return, that would grow to slightly more than $200,000. Bingo Daddio !!
Add to your gas savings, you're now ahead by nearly $270,000.
You pay a lot less to insure the cheaper vehicle, and repair costs would be smaller. Maybe you'd be ahead by $300,000, perhaps more.
Not a likely scenario, but mathematically possible....
Take that $300,000 and invest that into 12% interest mutual funds over the next 10 years and you'll have saved millions!
For performance....the 300M has "so-so" 0-60 performance, but in the 5 years I've owned it, I've never really encountered a situation where 0-60 times came in handy. The top speed of the 300M is near 150 mph, but I rarely took it above 80...a speed that the Prius is perfectly capable of attaining and maintaining. Bottom line..."high performance" isn't a selling point for me.
Ecology? That's not a driving factor for me, but I can say that I'll feel a little better about being a bit "greener" so that my daughter has a clean world to live in.
But the big thing is fuel economy. It runs on regular, which is selling for $2 a gallon in my area. My driving is almost 80% in town driving - so instead of filling up once or twice a week, I'm hoping to only fill up once or twice a month. I'l be paying MSRP for my Prius when it arrives in March (or earlier). I estimate I'll save about $550 per year on gas. That makes a difference to me.
I estimate I'll save about $550 per year on gas. That makes a difference to me.
Let's see payments of $550 per month, the gas savings alone should pay for your first monthly payment leaving you only 11 other payments of $550 for a total net outlay of only $6050. Buying any new car is not an economical proposition. You would be more economical and save a lot more money overall, even with fairly substantial repairs, by keeping your current 300M.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. - Your payments may be less than $550, depending on the downpayment/trade-in, option package ordered and your negotiating skills ( however most pay at least MSRP on Prius) but the above is still illustrative of the new car buying delima.
Actually, in many cases trading a vehicle involved in an unpaid loan *CAN INDEED* be a smart decision.....I.E. if you can get an equal amount for your trade to the value of the car and break even, then get lower payments with the new car, and get bonus gas mileage savings money, and possibly even lower insurance.....
As even your signature indicates, you understand that "your mileage may vary."
My last car deal is an example of such a benefit:
Old Payment: $880
New Payment: $429
Annual Savings: $5412
actual July 2003 to July 2004 fuel costs paid: $2200
Estimated July 2004 to July 2005 costs: $450
Annual savings: $1750
Annual Insurance Savings: $120
Total saved year 1: $7282
Average monthly savings: $606
There are obviously other variables which will decrease or increase that number based on currently unknown factors, but all in all, to start out $7282 in the black in Year 1 is not a "bad economic decision."