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What's your reason for buying a Hybrid?
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Yet...There are plenty of AMERICAN MEN smart enough to work on my Lexus...Yes guys that SMART want to work in a Car Dealership....Or own their own shop and repair these machines...
Host...Shame on you for doubting the intelligence of the good old avg. American Working man.....P.S. the Prius is as good as any Chevy or Ford or Toyota on the road today...Plus...It is a Hybred...Will you fix you chevy at 100,000 ...Maybe not but someone will want that car and will fix it.
Actually all type of cars were stranded including Priuses and other hybrids. You can only run on the battery so long before the gasoline motor needs to recharge it. The problem was the highways were never designed to handle a mass evacuation of 2.2 million people. When a normal 3-4 hour drive became a 25-35 hour drive, people ran out of food, water and GAS And then the gas stations ran out and the tankers and special Texas DOT vehicles couldn't resupply because the roads were clogged.
While there will be some changes to improve the situation, it will still exist when the next major evacuation occurs and it will affect all driviers : hybrid or not.
YMMV,
MidCow
So, sure, hybrids ran out of gas too, but they went a LOT FARTHER before they did.
I know of no independent shops working on hybrids at the moment.
I think hybrids are definitely a "niche" vehicle and will remain so. Why? Because gasoline engines are nearly as efficient and will become even more efficient. Right now, if you strip out the electric part, the Prius gas engine is no more efficient, or only slightly more efficient, than a normal gas engine of equal size. You can see this if you run a Prius constantly at highway speeds. The fuel economy drops to the same as or close to the most gas-sipping of the Honda Civics, or VW TDIs. Once gas & diesel engines gain a bit more fuel efficiency, they will compete toe to toe with hybrids with less complexity and cost.
Where the hybrids might do better is in heavier vehicles that can carry more battery power and then run a smaller gas engine.
They are not going to be "rebuilding" the HSD parts or the IMA parts.
They are going to hook the car up to an analysis computer and run tests.
When a test indicates that a part is bad, they will then replace it, using the tools and mechanic skills that all basic mechanics possess.
That's not rocket science my friends. It won't take a Bachelor's degree to learn how to do that.
"So, sure, hybrids ran out of gas too, but they went a LOT FARTHER before they did. "
And you point is??
My point is that they still didn't make it to their destination !
The problem is we you are stop-stop-stop-go-stop-stop-stopstop-go-stop-stop-stop-stop-stop the batterys need to rechage the air conditioners kind of need to run ( high 90s degrees), peopel need food , people need water, people need restrooms.
... the mileage drops like an anchor; people were probably getting 2-5 mpg in regular cars and 5-9 in Prius. There wasn't any 500-800 miles per tank; mor like 150-200 at best.
Cheers,
MidCow
Hybrid repair will be more like rotary engine repair or Ferrari repair----just a few specialists to do it with proprietory equipment I think.
Well, let's see, I think they sold around 1/2 million GM light duty trucks. That is a pretty significant amount.
But I was actually speaking of hybrid technology as a niche market. Sorry, should have been more clear there.
That is precisely why it will be so expensive to fix, if the price of the components doesn't come down...
I don't think so. It's the cost of doing business, and the larger shops don't want the dealers keeping all that pie.
We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the parts prices will come down. It's called Economy of Scale, and it has happened with virtually every new technology known to modern man. Computers, TVs, HDTVs, cell phones, etc.
Back in the early 1980s, my boss paid $10,000 for a 10 megabyte hard drive to put into a server. That drive today, if you can find one, is about 99 cents on E-Bay.
The more that are made and required, the less expensive replacement parts become. With more than a million Hybrids on the road in the USA within a few years, costs will without a doubt come down.
I know larsb thinks these mechanics are a dime a dozen. The truth is the good ones jump from shop to shop. My VW salesman in Oregon was crying the blues because their top auto technician quit and went to work for the Cadillac dealership. He made $125k at the VW/Buick dealer and the Caddy dealer guaranteed him $150k. We had a boss that thought all electronic equipment was plug n play. Until he had a big outage and no one trained. He got fired for his miscalculation. The more complex the car the more chance it will sit in the shop waiting for a qualified technician to repair it. Personally I don't care for the direction all cars are headed. They are becoming throwaway vehicles. The hybrids may be the worst for needing special care and feeding.
epiphanized????
You are making another assumption about hybrids being a long term (rather than an interim) technology. How much would it cost to fix an original Macintosh today? As opposed to an IBM PC AT? Both were computers, but one was prorietary parts, the other open market parts.
I don't think so. It's the cost of doing business, and the larger shops don't want the dealers keeping all that pie."
Yes, I do think so, because we are speaking of propritary technology, for which Toyota holds the patents. Is Toyota going to license the technology to 3rd party manufacturors? They should, but that doesn't mean they will. The Hybrid technology is new, and therefore (unlike the parts you mention) is not available as a "generic" part that people can just build.
The computer stuff uses custom code, to which only Toyota has access. Again, that stuff belongs to Toyota, and it is their decision as to what is allowed out to other manufacturors.
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Good gas mileage controls one factor , gas cost and makes the cart cheaper. As gas prices continue to increase this becomes an even more important factor.
However, down the road maintnenance might be costly becuase of speacialization needed.
The it is no longer cheaper, the real reason we bought it.
Let's see : (Levels of Testing)
Rocket Scientist (or Hybrid certified ACE specialist with specialized hybrid diagnostic equipment) - battery three of module A is bad replace : cost $4
Car repair shop with hybrid diagnostic equipment - module A is bad replace : cost $80
Car repair with VOM ( Volt-Ohm -Meter) or general car diagnostic equipment: H'mm it appears to be your hybrid battery - replace entire hybrid battery ,need to order 5 days, cost $2,400
Your Cost Many Vary (YCMV), but it will happen down the road, to the then owner of the Hybrid.
YCMV,
MidCow
And in the Hondas, the battery is just an "assistant" to the gas engine. Hondas with a dead battery can still run, and albeit losing the battery assist, will still get decent MPG and not cost the owner a penny.
And by that time, should battery failures happen, not only will new batteries be cheaper because of the Economy of Scale, but there will likely be batteries available on the secondary market, i.e. from totalled/wrecked hybrids which will become more frequent in junkyards as a matter of course like every other car/truck/SUV on the road.
Where are these so-called AAA do it all shops? I live in one of the largest cities in the US and it took me a year of searching to find A Lexus shop. I was about ready to dump our Lexus until I found that shop. Getting an older Lexus repaired at the dealership is out of the question. They are trying to convince you that the car is not worth fixing to get you into a new one. It is not as much of an issue to people that put a lot of miles on a car in a few short years. 100k miles and recycle it. Makes the auto manufacturers happy.
Or in our case the RLL 40 meg hard drive that stores the billing in a Cell site is near impossible to find. The Company just happens to have a few used ones at $1200 each. If you need a part for a 2001-2003 Prius that is out of warranty you are going to get the shaft from Toyota. It is already happening.
There have been failures and there will be more failures and yes in most cases the whole traction battery will not fail. But my point is that it will take specialization and equipment to pinpoint the exact failure correctly , quickly and inexpensively.
Maybe the HAH will work with a failed battery, but I would suggest that a Insight or HCH with a failed battery therfore a failed IMA would be dangerously slow. Imagine Priuses flying by and passing you quickly
The economy of scale is a misnomer on future batteries is unknown. The current technology of the traction batteries has already recovered the developmental costs and any future economy of scales will be minimal in production efforts, because they are already getting close to material only cost where is already at an economy of scale. While they mght decrease or remain the same ,do not expect anything like a significant cost decrease in batteries. H'mm let me ask all the readers when was the last time you replaced your battery with one from a wrecked car in a storage yard ?
YCMV,
MidCow
Batteries will fail at current rates, which means super duper small.
Batteries will become available on the second hand market, because hybrids have ALREADY and will continue to be totalled, like any other car category. Battery prices will come down as production costs come down, like every other thing in our economy.
Resale value will remain high.
I think we are going to have to "Agree to Disagree" on these issues, but time will tell who will be correct. I have been correct on a number of issues so far, and I expect to keep up my streak....
I would say you care. And you have researched and listened to all sides of the hybrid issue. You are going into buying a hybrid with a good understanding of the pros & cons. That is what this forum is all about. Odds are you will love the Prius like the rest of the owners represented here. I would call that a win, win situation.
For the present anyway, hybrids seem to be a part of "feel good marketing", which is FINE....but they don't yet add up to any savings over a regular car. Great technology and excellent emissions however. I could see the latter arguments as sound enough for buying one, that it supports an emerging (if volatile) technology and is a clean running car (presuming it doesn't require external re-charging).
But the "saving money" argument falls apart IMO, at least in 2005.
The truth is that for a certain group of drivers like me, the "saving money" argument holds. And it has been true since year 2000. I've been a Hybrid driver for more than 5 years.
The purchase of a hybrid makes more sense when you drive more miles. In my case, it's 30k miles per year. My peak year was 40k miles. In today's society, many people have long commutes to work, so they are likely to pile on more miles than the measely 15k/year and it makes more sense to them.
I used to have the very first model of Xler 300M. At 23mpg, I had to fill up every 3 days or so. In heavy trafic in Boston when the whole interstate became a parking lot, it sat while burning gas and got me no where.
The Prius, on the other hand, visited filing station every 2 wks thus giving me much more time flexibility rather than having to exit interstate to get gas (sometimes with urgency) then merge on to the "parking lot" again. But the real trick was that it would shut down in "parking lot" situation while others consumed gas. Quoting gas mileages, to compare Hybrids and regular cars, fails to account for this wasteful parking lot situation.
Everyone should do the math on their own situation, but don't skew the numbers to make you feel better.
"Who cares? The battery is warranted for virtually the life of the car. "
Actually, that is turning out not to be completlely true. There have been several documented cases where the battery won't retain a charge and Honda refuses to replace the battery because it still works! There have been some unexplained failures on the hSD system and modules and entrire batteries being replaced becuse the exact cause could not be pinpointed.
Obviously , if you bought a brand new Prius and went to the dealer a month later and demanded that your battery would be replaced they would not do it.
By the same token if your traction battery were completley dead and none of the cells or modules worked and it was still under the warranty period , it would have obviously failed and would be repalced under warranty.
However, it is the gray area in the middle that is of concern, when does a battery become bad enough to be replaced ? Even if the owner sayes and knows the battery is not working right, if it does not meet the car dealers replacement diagnostic criteria it will not be replaced. And these criteria are high because a car dealer is not about to lose money on a warranty item. It just doesn't make good business sense.
I find it very amusing that thaere are so many opinions on how the battery failure rate is so low because it never discharges more than x% or becuase there is special charging circuitry, Yadda Yadda. None of these opnions are coming from actually examining the battery electrical design or from a deep understanding of electrical and battery technology. All of these opnions are merely parroting the sales and marketing literature that the car manufacturers are putting out to try to get people to buy hybrid cars in the first place.
Has anyone seen or read any detailed long term testing reports from an independent third party lab as to the life expectancy of a hybrid traction battery? The answer is NO !
And there is the naive asumption that pricing on traction batteries will come down and that traction batteries will be sold on a secondary market or wrecked hybrids or the frogs will grow wngs and fly. The best bet is the latter and obvious that is not realistic in the near term unless Darwin's theory accelerates.
Have you seen the headlines in the paper in 2010 "Owners dump hybrids because of failing batteries" "hybird cars have gone by the wayside just as turbo cars" "Fuel cell cars are the most economic" "Diesel cars are outsellingr gas cars"
If saying my coments about batteries makes you want to buy a hybrid even more eager, then I say you had already made up your mind. Did you realize that most advertising is not necessarily to cause the initial ppurchase , but to mitigate depression and buyers remorse after spending so much money on a item that immediatiately and quickly begins to lose value.
My comments are not so cynical as truthful and sometimes the truth hurts when one takes off thier rose colored glasses.
Cheers,
MidCow
MidCow
That's because a study like that is UNNECESSARY !!
We already have 9 year old Priuses in Japan. If batteries were dying like flies, the Japanese bloggers would be Blogging it and Toyota would be getting bashed left and right. The world is small enough now that information like that would be getting around.
The story I posted yesterday of a Honda Insight owner with a 104K 2000 model Insight who had a failed battery and got it replaced for $500 is FAR FAR closer to any reality that you can fantasize about for 2010.
Batteries WILL need to be replaced, but in such small numbers that it's not even going to be an issue for 99% of Hybrid owners !!
PS
My glasses are black rimmed with polarized green lenses.
Excellent ad in terms of getting the message out. Yota knows with the high gas prices, many people are already aware of the hybrid. But many have yet to know the second part of the equation: low emissions. So in terms of message and strategy, the ad is a home run.
Do you own a hybrid?....I do....My Prius gets 52mpg in mixed driving...do you know of a Gasoline engine that gets that on it's own?.....In stop and go Traffic the Prius is even better because like a Golf cart the engine shuts off when the vehicle stops..At speed (my wife often drives the 100 miles to visit our daughter in her Prius) on the interstate Her MPG has never been less then 48...
Many if not most Computer geeks have no degrees...Bill Gates is but one example.. Cars now contain many computers and have for years...They are fixed or replaced daily, all over America by the techs (Most of whom have no BS) degrees) Mechanics will be paid whatever the market demands...On the Avg probably more then the Avg Computer Geek.
Gregs Japanese Auto a small independent chain of repair shops in the Seattle Area either now or soon will work on Hybrids....Many independents will as soon as there are enough of them on the road with some miles on them to justify the training expense....JUST AS WITH ANY NEW INNOVATION.
DIESEL requires a much larger distribution system in the US if they are to become popular...While I am not an expert I also believe they are not as clean as Gas/electric cars...and if fact are banned in some states. Hyrbids do not require special gas stations and the batteries are recharged by the gas engine...
Small gas engines will definately provide greater gas milage then big one's ..SURPRISE...But the drivers I know want Some Power in addition to economy...hybrids provide just that...
Here's a fuel thrifty Civic, but it's obviously not got the equipment of any current model.
I commute 75 miles/day through metro Detroit which takes about 2h15m on average. Some stop and go stuck on freeways, some boulevards, some secondary streets. Almost every vehicle I've commuted in gets right in the middle of the EPA estimates. ICE engines use very little fuel at idle. It's the acceleration that consumes the most.
But the "saving money" argument falls apart IMO, at least in 2005.
I agree. The problem is that you get some single people, or some DINKs (Dual Income No Kids), who buy a hybrid (because they can afford the surplus), get religion about it, and become convinced that if it works for them it MUST work for everyone else on the planet. I think we've seen that on this forum as well.
How many hybrid owners here have 2+ kids and make less than $100K per year (total family income)? Just curious.
I fall into that category - single dad, two kids who live with me, less that $100K a year by a large chunk of change, and I own a Hybrid I paid $19,324 for in July 2004.
Our HCH has been a dream commuter car, and is averaging mid 60's mpg, pretty good I'd say for a MT vehicle.
I expect it to give good service for the 10 year +300K miles I plan to drive.
BTW less than $100K/yr family income as well.
And neither of them will ride in the front seat until their 13th birthday.
And once the oldest is out of the booster seat I will put him in the backseat middle seat to keep him away from the door in case we get T-Boned. 50/50 chance that it will be on the side he is not on, but you can only do so much. :shades:
HCH is my primary commuter car and drive 46miles twice a day.
Typically just under 1/2 is rural highway, just under 1/2 is freeway into the city of Atlanta, and about 5 miles of clogged rush-hour mid town traffic.
They have higher income, much higher than the average car buyer—approximately $100,000 a year versus $85,000 a year for the average buyer.
They’re more likely to be female.
Hybrid drivers are a few years older than the average car buyer—closer to fifty rather than the average age of forty.
California strongly outpaces all other states for new hybrid vehicle registrations.
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-driver-profile.html
This statistic is interesting: They drive fewer miles on average
Absolutely true, intrinsically and a good academic point!
However, this is reality: i wasn't trading in my 7.8sec-to-60mph 300M for a Corolla. Go figure... And my Prius quickly passed many BMWs on the road while they were still waiting for engine response.
The more relevant comparison for me was to compare the new car to what I got, considering both costs and performance as an entire packaged trade. If I am making a gas mileage jump, like I had, i was not going to make a mediocre jump to a middle of the road Corrolla with a lethargic engine response. I jump right to the best possible.
The number weren't "skewed" because those are true numbers of a 300M. The more important issue is: do you compare a new car to what you got or what you could have gotten? For me, there was no sense of comparing the Prius to a Corrolla because I ain't gonna get a Corrolla, even at 50% discount !!!! So it wasn't a relevant comparison for me.
My point is that if you're going to consider a Prius, then you should compare it to the other cars that YOU LIKE and would have gotten if there is no Prius. You should not compare the Prius to another car, which can be a good academic exercise, but you would never going to get anyway.
There lies the necessity to make your own judgment for you own situation, like you said.
I often compare/justify new vehicle with current one, but not always do I compare the new vehicle with all its competitors. That doesn't mean it is right. Deciding to purchase a new vehicle (and the class/equipment/size) it is in should be separate from evaluating all the vehicles in said market.
You should check out the equipment level of the 2006 Civic LX & EX. Really not far off base Prius sans anything related to the hybrid tech. Now, some of the other optional features in Prius are class exclusive. I'm sure it was not availible when you bought your Prius, though.
I found it hard to believe also. I guess that is why none of the people I know have a hybrid. They are not in the upper income bracket that can afford one. They are lucky to own a used Echo.