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What's your reason for buying a Hybrid?

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Comments

  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I can assure you my Lexus LS430 is far more complicated to work on then a Prius...It has MORE computers...More exectronics...More everything...

    Yet...There are plenty of AMERICAN MEN smart enough to work on my Lexus...Yes guys that SMART want to work in a Car Dealership....Or own their own shop and repair these machines...

    Host...Shame on you for doubting the intelligence of the good old avg. American Working man.....P.S. the Prius is as good as any Chevy or Ford or Toyota on the road today...Plus...It is a Hybred...Will you fix you chevy at 100,000 ...Maybe not but someone will want that car and will fix it.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Michael_Mattox said: "My niece in Houston wanted to evacuate but her Pickup only gets 12 Miles per gallon and there was no way she could sit in those lines and NOT RUN OUT OF GAS...(She could not buy Extra Gas tanks or Gas to fill them.) How nice it would have been for her to own a Hybrid where the engine turns itself off in stop and go traffic and at very low speeds you can run on the battery... "

    Actually all type of cars were stranded including Priuses and other hybrids. You can only run on the battery so long before the gasoline motor needs to recharge it. The problem was the highways were never designed to handle a mass evacuation of 2.2 million people. When a normal 3-4 hour drive became a 25-35 hour drive, people ran out of food, water and GAS And then the gas stations ran out and the tankers and special Texas DOT vehicles couldn't resupply because the roads were clogged.

    While there will be some changes to improve the situation, it will still exist when the next major evacuation occurs and it will affect all driviers : hybrid or not.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    In the smaller hybrids, you get 500 - 800 miles per tank. That's more than a pickup with a 31 gallon tank that gets 12 MPG.

    So, sure, hybrids ran out of gas too, but they went a LOT FARTHER before they did.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm not doubting the intelligence of the average working man, only doubting that he'd want to take a B.S. degree in order to work on a car for a living. I guess it depends on whether a mechanic will get the same or better salary than a computer geek in the high tech industry.

    I know of no independent shops working on hybrids at the moment.

    I think hybrids are definitely a "niche" vehicle and will remain so. Why? Because gasoline engines are nearly as efficient and will become even more efficient. Right now, if you strip out the electric part, the Prius gas engine is no more efficient, or only slightly more efficient, than a normal gas engine of equal size. You can see this if you run a Prius constantly at highway speeds. The fuel economy drops to the same as or close to the most gas-sipping of the Honda Civics, or VW TDIs. Once gas & diesel engines gain a bit more fuel efficiency, they will compete toe to toe with hybrids with less complexity and cost.

    Where the hybrids might do better is in heavier vehicles that can carry more battery power and then run a smaller gas engine.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I think we are going too far off the edge about what it takes to become a Hybrid mechanic.

    They are not going to be "rebuilding" the HSD parts or the IMA parts.

    They are going to hook the car up to an analysis computer and run tests.

    When a test indicates that a part is bad, they will then replace it, using the tools and mechanic skills that all basic mechanics possess.

    That's not rocket science my friends. It won't take a Bachelor's degree to learn how to do that.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    larsb siad:

    "So, sure, hybrids ran out of gas too, but they went a LOT FARTHER before they did. "

    And you point is??

    My point is that they still didn't make it to their destination !

    The problem is we you are stop-stop-stop-go-stop-stop-stopstop-go-stop-stop-stop-stop-stop the batterys need to rechage the air conditioners kind of need to run ( high 90s degrees), peopel need food , people need water, people need restrooms.

    ... the mileage drops like an anchor; people were probably getting 2-5 mpg in regular cars and 5-9 in Prius. There wasn't any 500-800 miles per tank; mor like 150-200 at best.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    An analysis computer? Okay, fair enough. Costing how much? One computer for each type of hybrid made? Who's going to buy these machines? Hybrid diagnostics are definitely not standardized and I rather doubt they will be.

    Hybrid repair will be more like rotary engine repair or Ferrari repair----just a few specialists to do it with proprietory equipment I think.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "If you take your theory and use that ratio, every car model pales in comparison to the total number. I stand by my assertion that the Prius is NOT a niche vehicle. Is the CRV a niche vehicle? How about the Chevy Impala?"

    Well, let's see, I think they sold around 1/2 million GM light duty trucks. That is a pretty significant amount.

    But I was actually speaking of hybrid technology as a niche market. Sorry, should have been more clear there.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    " When a test indicates that a part is bad, they will then replace it, using the tools and mechanic skills that all basic mechanics possess."

    That is precisely why it will be so expensive to fix, if the price of the components doesn't come down...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Do you really think the major AAA Certified larger shops, who have purchased analysis computers for EVERY type of new technology in the past (anti-lock brakes, traction control, all the complicated computer systems in cars from 1990-2005) so that they might compete with the dealers are going to all of a sudden "concede" all that repair business to the dealers, with more than a million hybrids on the roads in the USA in a few years?

    I don't think so. It's the cost of doing business, and the larger shops don't want the dealers keeping all that pie.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote stevedebi-"That is precisely why it will be so expensive to fix, if the price of the components doesn't come down."-end quote

    We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the parts prices will come down. It's called Economy of Scale, and it has happened with virtually every new technology known to modern man. Computers, TVs, HDTVs, cell phones, etc.

    Back in the early 1980s, my boss paid $10,000 for a 10 megabyte hard drive to put into a server. That drive today, if you can find one, is about 99 cents on E-Bay.

    The more that are made and required, the less expensive replacement parts become. With more than a million Hybrids on the road in the USA within a few years, costs will without a doubt come down.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    just a few specialists to do it with proprietary equipment I think.

    I know larsb thinks these mechanics are a dime a dozen. The truth is the good ones jump from shop to shop. My VW salesman in Oregon was crying the blues because their top auto technician quit and went to work for the Cadillac dealership. He made $125k at the VW/Buick dealer and the Caddy dealer guaranteed him $150k. We had a boss that thought all electronic equipment was plug n play. Until he had a big outage and no one trained. He got fired for his miscalculation. The more complex the car the more chance it will sit in the shop waiting for a qualified technician to repair it. Personally I don't care for the direction all cars are headed. They are becoming throwaway vehicles. The hybrids may be the worst for needing special care and feeding.

    epiphanized????
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the parts prices will come down. It's called Economy of Scale, and it has happened with virtually every new technology known to modern man. Computers, TVs, HDTVs, cell phones, etc."

    You are making another assumption about hybrids being a long term (rather than an interim) technology. How much would it cost to fix an original Macintosh today? As opposed to an IBM PC AT? Both were computers, but one was prorietary parts, the other open market parts.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Do you really think the major AAA Certified larger shops, who have purchased analysis computers for EVERY type of new technology in the past (anti-lock brakes, traction control, all the complicated computer systems in cars from 1990-2005) so that they might compete with the dealers are going to all of a sudden "concede" all that repair business to the dealers, with more than a million hybrids on the roads in the USA in a few years?

    I don't think so. It's the cost of doing business, and the larger shops don't want the dealers keeping all that pie."

    Yes, I do think so, because we are speaking of propritary technology, for which Toyota holds the patents. Is Toyota going to license the technology to 3rd party manufacturors? They should, but that doesn't mean they will. The Hybrid technology is new, and therefore (unlike the parts you mention) is not available as a "generic" part that people can just build.

    The computer stuff uses custom code, to which only Toyota has access. Again, that stuff belongs to Toyota, and it is their decision as to what is allowed out to other manufacturors.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    If someone in Houston had a Prius or HCH and had a full tank when they left. The would make it to Dallas with no problem. If you leave with 1/4 tank, no doubt any car will get stuck. A hybrid under those conditions was the best thing to have. When you're idling and if you keep the AC off the bat pack can last a long time before the engine comes back on. A hummer would have been useful for one thing. Cross the divider and head south to Mexico.
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  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    We buy a Hybrid becuase it is cheaper or green , but primarily because it gets good gas mileage and saves us money

    Good gas mileage controls one factor , gas cost and makes the cart cheaper. As gas prices continue to increase this becomes an even more important factor.

    However, down the road maintnenance might be costly becuase of speacialization needed.

    The it is no longer cheaper, the real reason we bought it.

    Let's see : (Levels of Testing)

    Rocket Scientist (or Hybrid certified ACE specialist with specialized hybrid diagnostic equipment) - battery three of module A is bad replace : cost $4

    Car repair shop with hybrid diagnostic equipment - module A is bad replace : cost $80

    Car repair with VOM ( Volt-Ohm -Meter) or general car diagnostic equipment: H'mm it appears to be your hybrid battery - replace entire hybrid battery ,need to order 5 days, cost $2,400

    Your Cost Many Vary (YCMV), but it will happen down the road, to the then owner of the Hybrid.

    YCMV,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    There is no guarantee in the world that "ALL" hybrid batteries are going to die at some point in the future. Their current failure rate is infinitesimal (that means REALLY small.) There is an owner I know about whose HCH battery tested 96% of capacity after 82,000 miles. His mileage has not dropped at all.

    And in the Hondas, the battery is just an "assistant" to the gas engine. Hondas with a dead battery can still run, and albeit losing the battery assist, will still get decent MPG and not cost the owner a penny.

    And by that time, should battery failures happen, not only will new batteries be cheaper because of the Economy of Scale, but there will likely be batteries available on the secondary market, i.e. from totalled/wrecked hybrids which will become more frequent in junkyards as a matter of course like every other car/truck/SUV on the road.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Do you really think the major AAA Certified larger shops

    Where are these so-called AAA do it all shops? I live in one of the largest cities in the US and it took me a year of searching to find A Lexus shop. I was about ready to dump our Lexus until I found that shop. Getting an older Lexus repaired at the dealership is out of the question. They are trying to convince you that the car is not worth fixing to get you into a new one. It is not as much of an issue to people that put a lot of miles on a car in a few short years. 100k miles and recycle it. Makes the auto manufacturers happy.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    my boss paid $10,000 for a 10 megabyte hard drive to put into a server. That drive today, if you can find one, is about 99 cents on E-Bay

    Or in our case the RLL 40 meg hard drive that stores the billing in a Cell site is near impossible to find. The Company just happens to have a few used ones at $1200 each. If you need a part for a 2001-2003 Prius that is out of warranty you are going to get the shaft from Toyota. It is already happening.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    WOAH HOLD ON NELLIE you said "Their current failure rate is infinitesimal (that means REALLY small.)" infinitisimal means zero or as asymptotically close to zero as you can get.

    There have been failures and there will be more failures and yes in most cases the whole traction battery will not fail. But my point is that it will take specialization and equipment to pinpoint the exact failure correctly , quickly and inexpensively.

    Maybe the HAH will work with a failed battery, but I would suggest that a Insight or HCH with a failed battery therfore a failed IMA would be dangerously slow. Imagine Priuses flying by and passing you quickly :)

    The economy of scale is a misnomer on future batteries is unknown. The current technology of the traction batteries has already recovered the developmental costs and any future economy of scales will be minimal in production efforts, because they are already getting close to material only cost where is already at an economy of scale. While they mght decrease or remain the same ,do not expect anything like a significant cost decrease in batteries. H'mm let me ask all the readers when was the last time you replaced your battery with one from a wrecked car in a storage yard ?

    YCMV,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    We are attempting to tell the future here. My view (and I have been right on a lot of things Hybrid-related so far because I do my homework) is that Hybrids will adapt themselves just fine in the automobile community, and will not require special babying.

    Batteries will fail at current rates, which means super duper small.

    Batteries will become available on the second hand market, because hybrids have ALREADY and will continue to be totalled, like any other car category. Battery prices will come down as production costs come down, like every other thing in our economy.

    Resale value will remain high.

    I think we are going to have to "Agree to Disagree" on these issues, but time will tell who will be correct. I have been correct on a number of issues so far, and I expect to keep up my streak....
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Who cares? The battery is warranted for virtually the life of the car. 100k/150k depending where you live. I'm not concerned or have I been disuaded from the cynical rhetoric. If anything, your arguments have made me even more eager to get my hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Who cares?

    I would say you care. And you have researched and listened to all sides of the hybrid issue. You are going into buying a hybrid with a good understanding of the pros & cons. That is what this forum is all about. Odds are you will love the Prius like the rest of the owners represented here. I would call that a win, win situation.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Speaking of the future, how do any of us know that when we buy a current type of hybrid, that we are buying the DVD and not the VHS of hybrid systems? We already seem to have 3 differing engineering models in place and there may be more (and better ones).

    For the present anyway, hybrids seem to be a part of "feel good marketing", which is FINE....but they don't yet add up to any savings over a regular car. Great technology and excellent emissions however. I could see the latter arguments as sound enough for buying one, that it supports an emerging (if volatile) technology and is a clean running car (presuming it doesn't require external re-charging).

    But the "saving money" argument falls apart IMO, at least in 2005.
  • maxamigomaxamigo Member Posts: 72
    "...the "saving money" argument falls apart ..." That is a generalized statement, and as such, it is incorrect.

    The truth is that for a certain group of drivers like me, the "saving money" argument holds. And it has been true since year 2000. I've been a Hybrid driver for more than 5 years.

    The purchase of a hybrid makes more sense when you drive more miles. In my case, it's 30k miles per year. My peak year was 40k miles. In today's society, many people have long commutes to work, so they are likely to pile on more miles than the measely 15k/year and it makes more sense to them.

    I used to have the very first model of Xler 300M. At 23mpg, I had to fill up every 3 days or so. In heavy trafic in Boston when the whole interstate became a parking lot, it sat while burning gas and got me no where.

    The Prius, on the other hand, visited filing station every 2 wks thus giving me much more time flexibility rather than having to exit interstate to get gas (sometimes with urgency) then merge on to the "parking lot" again. But the real trick was that it would shut down in "parking lot" situation while others consumed gas. Quoting gas mileages, to compare Hybrids and regular cars, fails to account for this wasteful parking lot situation.
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    A 300M is not comparable in size or equipment to a Prius. How about a Corolla or Civic that gets 35mpg under the same conditions? It may still save some fuel money, but how much over the cost of a mid-trim Civic? 35mpg vs. 50mpg for 30k miles at $3/gallon is $770 savings per year.

    Everyone should do the math on their own situation, but don't skew the numbers to make you feel better.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Falconone said:

    "Who cares? The battery is warranted for virtually the life of the car. "

    Actually, that is turning out not to be completlely true. There have been several documented cases where the battery won't retain a charge and Honda refuses to replace the battery because it still works! There have been some unexplained failures on the hSD system and modules and entrire batteries being replaced becuse the exact cause could not be pinpointed.

    Obviously , if you bought a brand new Prius and went to the dealer a month later and demanded that your battery would be replaced they would not do it.

    By the same token if your traction battery were completley dead and none of the cells or modules worked and it was still under the warranty period , it would have obviously failed and would be repalced under warranty.

    However, it is the gray area in the middle that is of concern, when does a battery become bad enough to be replaced ? Even if the owner sayes and knows the battery is not working right, if it does not meet the car dealers replacement diagnostic criteria it will not be replaced. And these criteria are high because a car dealer is not about to lose money on a warranty item. It just doesn't make good business sense.

    I find it very amusing that thaere are so many opinions on how the battery failure rate is so low because it never discharges more than x% or becuase there is special charging circuitry, Yadda Yadda. None of these opnions are coming from actually examining the battery electrical design or from a deep understanding of electrical and battery technology. All of these opnions are merely parroting the sales and marketing literature that the car manufacturers are putting out to try to get people to buy hybrid cars in the first place.

    Has anyone seen or read any detailed long term testing reports from an independent third party lab as to the life expectancy of a hybrid traction battery? The answer is NO !

    And there is the naive asumption that pricing on traction batteries will come down and that traction batteries will be sold on a secondary market or wrecked hybrids or the frogs will grow wngs and fly. The best bet is the latter and obvious that is not realistic in the near term unless Darwin's theory accelerates.

    Have you seen the headlines in the paper in 2010 "Owners dump hybrids because of failing batteries" "hybird cars have gone by the wayside just as turbo cars" "Fuel cell cars are the most economic" "Diesel cars are outsellingr gas cars"

    If saying my coments about batteries makes you want to buy a hybrid even more eager, then I say you had already made up your mind. Did you realize that most advertising is not necessarily to cause the initial ppurchase , but to mitigate depression and buyers remorse after spending so much money on a item that immediatiately and quickly begins to lose value.

    My comments are not so cynical as truthful and sometimes the truth hurts when one takes off thier rose colored glasses.

    Cheers,

    MidCow

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote MidCow-"Has anyone seen or read any detailed long term testing reports from an independent third party lab as to the life expectancy of a hybrid traction battery? The answer is NO !"-end quote

    That's because a study like that is UNNECESSARY !!

    We already have 9 year old Priuses in Japan. If batteries were dying like flies, the Japanese bloggers would be Blogging it and Toyota would be getting bashed left and right. The world is small enough now that information like that would be getting around.

    The story I posted yesterday of a Honda Insight owner with a 104K 2000 model Insight who had a failed battery and got it replaced for $500 is FAR FAR closer to any reality that you can fantasize about for 2010.

    Batteries WILL need to be replaced, but in such small numbers that it's not even going to be an issue for 99% of Hybrid owners !!

    PS
    My glasses are black rimmed with polarized green lenses. :D
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    throughout the whole 30 sec, no mention, not even a hint of gas mileage. The cars didn't even appear until maybe in the last 5 sec. The whole commercial is about people breathing and enjoying clean air.

    Excellent ad in terms of getting the message out. Yota knows with the high gas prices, many people are already aware of the hybrid. But many have yet to know the second part of the equation: low emissions. So in terms of message and strategy, the ad is a home run.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Host:

    Do you own a hybrid?....I do....My Prius gets 52mpg in mixed driving...do you know of a Gasoline engine that gets that on it's own?.....In stop and go Traffic the Prius is even better because like a Golf cart the engine shuts off when the vehicle stops..At speed (my wife often drives the 100 miles to visit our daughter in her Prius) on the interstate Her MPG has never been less then 48...

    Many if not most Computer geeks have no degrees...Bill Gates is but one example.. Cars now contain many computers and have for years...They are fixed or replaced daily, all over America by the techs (Most of whom have no BS) degrees) Mechanics will be paid whatever the market demands...On the Avg probably more then the Avg Computer Geek.

    Gregs Japanese Auto a small independent chain of repair shops in the Seattle Area either now or soon will work on Hybrids....Many independents will as soon as there are enough of them on the road with some miles on them to justify the training expense....JUST AS WITH ANY NEW INNOVATION.

    DIESEL requires a much larger distribution system in the US if they are to become popular...While I am not an expert I also believe they are not as clean as Gas/electric cars...and if fact are banned in some states. Hyrbids do not require special gas stations and the batteries are recharged by the gas engine...

    Small gas engines will definately provide greater gas milage then big one's ..SURPRISE...But the drivers I know want Some Power in addition to economy...hybrids provide just that...
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I would suggest you make a compairson of the car sizes you are talking about...The prius has far more room and equipment then the eariler hybrids...or gas only cars like the Civic or Corolla...further they get much better milage then the gas driven cars like Civic or Corolla who do NOT get 30-40 MPG for someone who drives in Heavy slow traffic everyday. On the Freeway Yes...In heavy stop and go urban traffic NO WAY....
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Buy a Toyota and you wouldn't have that Battery Warrenty Problem. At least not for the first 100-150,000 miles.......Why...Because the car does not run without the Batteries working properly...and they are guaranteed ...The older technology Honda's ....I don't know.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I can assure you that if there was EVER a problem with my traction battery and my Prius has less than 150,000 miles I'll get a new battery and pay NADA, ZIP. I am from NY and can be quite convincing. Your skepticism and continued participation in the hybrid forum may be a case of buyer remorse. I know you were hoping for a 6 speed Prius.
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    Check out the 2006 Civic. It isn't that far off in size than a Prius. If you regularly haul 5 adults, then a Prius isn't even big enough.

    Here's a fuel thrifty Civic, but it's obviously not got the equipment of any current model.

    I commute 75 miles/day through metro Detroit which takes about 2h15m on average. Some stop and go stuck on freeways, some boulevards, some secondary streets. Almost every vehicle I've commuted in gets right in the middle of the EPA estimates. ICE engines use very little fuel at idle. It's the acceleration that consumes the most.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    For the present anyway, hybrids seem to be a part of "feel good marketing", which is FINE....but they don't yet add up to any savings over a regular car. Great technology and excellent emissions however. I could see the latter arguments as sound enough for buying one, that it supports an emerging (if volatile) technology and is a clean running car (presuming it doesn't require external re-charging).

    But the "saving money" argument falls apart IMO, at least in 2005.


    I agree. The problem is that you get some single people, or some DINKs (Dual Income No Kids), who buy a hybrid (because they can afford the surplus), get religion about it, and become convinced that if it works for them it MUST work for everyone else on the planet. I think we've seen that on this forum as well.

    How many hybrid owners here have 2+ kids and make less than $100K per year (total family income)? Just curious.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote mirth-"How many hybrid owners here have 2+ kids and make less than $100K per year (total family income)? Just curious."-end quote

    I fall into that category - single dad, two kids who live with me, less that $100K a year by a large chunk of change, and I own a Hybrid I paid $19,324 for in July 2004.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    One large adult (Me) 6'3, 235lbs, One petite wife, 3 kids. We all fit quite nicely.

    Our HCH has been a dream commuter car, and is averaging mid 60's mpg, pretty good I'd say for a MT vehicle.
    I expect it to give good service for the 10 year +300K miles I plan to drive.

    BTW less than $100K/yr family income as well.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    ...are the kids? Still in car seats or boosters?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    My kids are a boy 9 and a girl 6 and they are still in booster seats and will remain there in the back seat until they reach 80 pounds per the safety recommendations of NHTSA and other agencies.

    And neither of them will ride in the front seat until their 13th birthday.

    And once the oldest is out of the booster seat I will put him in the backseat middle seat to keep him away from the door in case we get T-Boned. 50/50 chance that it will be on the side he is not on, but you can only do so much. :shades:
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    I wonder what the demographics are. Sex, income, # children, etc.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    5 People: Myself, Wife, Kids range 9-12. Family income is 50-100K.
    HCH is my primary commuter car and drive 46miles twice a day.

    Typically just under 1/2 is rural highway, just under 1/2 is freeway into the city of Atlanta, and about 5 miles of clogged rush-hour mid town traffic.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I wonder what the demographics are. Sex, income, # children, etc

    They have higher income, much higher than the average car buyer—approximately $100,000 a year versus $85,000 a year for the average buyer.
    They’re more likely to be female.
    Hybrid drivers are a few years older than the average car buyer—closer to fifty rather than the average age of forty.
    California strongly outpaces all other states for new hybrid vehicle registrations.


    http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-driver-profile.html
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    Thanks for that link!

    This statistic is interesting: They drive fewer miles on average
  • maxamigomaxamigo Member Posts: 72
    "A 300M is not comparable in size or equipment to a Prius."

    Absolutely true, intrinsically and a good academic point!

    However, this is reality: i wasn't trading in my 7.8sec-to-60mph 300M for a Corolla. Go figure... And my Prius quickly passed many BMWs on the road while they were still waiting for engine response.

    The more relevant comparison for me was to compare the new car to what I got, considering both costs and performance as an entire packaged trade. If I am making a gas mileage jump, like I had, i was not going to make a mediocre jump to a middle of the road Corrolla with a lethargic engine response. I jump right to the best possible.

    The number weren't "skewed" because those are true numbers of a 300M. The more important issue is: do you compare a new car to what you got or what you could have gotten? For me, there was no sense of comparing the Prius to a Corrolla because I ain't gonna get a Corrolla, even at 50% discount !!!! So it wasn't a relevant comparison for me.

    My point is that if you're going to consider a Prius, then you should compare it to the other cars that YOU LIKE and would have gotten if there is no Prius. You should not compare the Prius to another car, which can be a good academic exercise, but you would never going to get anyway.

    There lies the necessity to make your own judgment for you own situation, like you said.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    Well, you and larsb certainly walk the walk.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I seriously doubt the average car buyer earns 85k per year. No way, no how!!
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    Do you have a connotation against Corollas? I don't think the performance is any worse than Prius w/ fully charged batteries. CVT may change how it feels, though. I don't see Corolla as any better or worse in class than Prius or Camry. Echo, maybe, but not Prius.

    I often compare/justify new vehicle with current one, but not always do I compare the new vehicle with all its competitors. That doesn't mean it is right. Deciding to purchase a new vehicle (and the class/equipment/size) it is in should be separate from evaluating all the vehicles in said market.

    You should check out the equipment level of the 2006 Civic LX & EX. Really not far off base Prius sans anything related to the hybrid tech. Now, some of the other optional features in Prius are class exclusive. I'm sure it was not availible when you bought your Prius, though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not my statistics.

    I found it hard to believe also. I guess that is why none of the people I know have a hybrid. They are not in the upper income bracket that can afford one. They are lucky to own a used Echo.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    ...the average household earns 85K? I could maybe see that with two people working.
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