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What's your reason for buying a Hybrid?
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Comments
1. The fuel economy isn't siginificantly better than some of the more fuel efficient gas powered vehicles, at least not significant enough to justify the much higher price. If they can manage to get 70-80 MPG out of these vehicles, or they lowered the price, that would be a different story.
2. Hybrids haven't been around long enough to find out just how reliable they will be.
3. The batteries will eventually have to be replaced and no one can tell me how much these batteries will cost to replace. And what about disposal fees for the old batteries?
These are legitimate issues that need to be addressed with hybrids.
1- Battery- NON issue... 100k warranty/ 150k in CA/NY/MA/ME/VT
2- Mileage attained can easily be in the mid 40's without any effort at all.
3- Name a car with ALL the content of the Prius that can easily achieve 50mpg on the highway. It has to be around 26k.
Waiting.....
Good points!
I like the hybrid because of its high mileage and high tech features.
I dislike it because it isn't manual shift, is very average performance if not low and the handling is not very good (Toyota could have put the Camry multilink suspension intead of the torsion beam cheap Echo suspension and it would have made it worlds better handling at a low weight penalty).
Also, I don't completely fit the Hybrid profile in the previous link, even though I think It may be dated:
fit: higher income, higher education, older, fully expect gas prices to continue to increase
don't fit: not female, don't drive fewer miles, don't live in Califonia, not willing to pay more for "green", don't normally keep a car a long time, I agree pollution should be reduced but one car to another is pretty insignificant in the bigger picture.
Periodically I get on a high mileage kick and I actually like the looks of the Prius and its planetary gear CVT transmssion is unique.
I could have lived with the handling and performance, but for me to enjoy driving at all I need(want) a manual shift.
Cheers,
MidCow
I am still toying with the idea of buying a 5-speed Insight but I think a convertible is going to win out and I already have too many cars now
Lemmee see.... at 41 mpg, compared to my gas hog (V-8), I'd save $78 a month driving a Prius. BUT, since my car is bought and paid for I don't have comprehensive insurance, so we have to add $45 a month additional for the Prius.
Nah, can't justify it on gas mileage.
The "feel good" part I like a lot. I would enjoy driving a more emissions-free car. So that's a plus.
As for driving enjoyment, a Prius doesn't work for me at all...it's a clumsy car (by my standards) so I'm not ready to buy yet on those grounds...it's also pretty slow for me. I'll race a Prius with a new BMW for money or lunch any day. I'm hungry. :P
As for carrying capacity/room, my present car is a large 2 door hatch and I can get a lot of stuff in there. So I don't think Prius has the edge on my present wheels.
SUMMARY: 4 major reasons to buy a hybrid (includes most types of drivers)
1. Fuel economy
2. Driving enjoyment
3. Environmental
4. Practical hauler
So I''m one out of four with present hybrids. Think I'll wait until I see improvements in the other areas, then I may go for it! For folks who don't care about acceleration and handling so much, they may be ready to buy now, and I can understand that.
How about a really good handling, V-6 (at least 250 HP) hybrid sport wagon or crossover? That might tempt me, even if fuel mileage were closer to 30 than 45 mpg.
Expand your horizons.
And I don't personally know 80 Prius owners either - notice I said "I know of about" that many owners by surfing websites which have drivers list their results.
I do have a co-worker and friend with a 32 mile one way stop and go highway commute and a 2005 Prius and he regularly gets 50 MPG tanks, and he does not even try that hard. He is always with a wife and a 3 year old daughter in the car - they both work here where I work.
It calculated out to over 68MPG.
I don't need 80 hybrid drivers to show me this.
Mr. Shiftright, I was wondering what you are getting in your V8?
Our hybrid purchase back in Jan '04 also influenced the MPG of our Grand Caravan.
Its MPG went from 16-17 up to mid 20's. (V6)
Even with 22-26MPG, it's still a pig, but many owners of smaller cars w/4cyl engines get 20's MPG.
The styling, features and performance of the Prius were directed toward the 'early adopters' rather than toward the bulk of the driving public. One comment made in the Wash Post last year was that potential buyers were eschewing the Civic Hybrid, letting it sit on the lot, in favor of the Prius because the Civic just looked like a Civic. The Prius made a statement.. but.. it's not for everyone.
After 5 years of introduction for its hybrids Toyota, with the THH this year and next year's TCH, is going after the heart of the buying public now. It remains to be seen if the mainstream buyer is willing to take the step. However with hundreds of thousands of satisfied Camry owners on its side - not to mention gas prices - it is quite likely that the 2nd phase of Toyota's Hybrid Marketing strategy will be as successful as its first.
OMOV
DeadPhish
Actually, that is turning out not to be completely true"
Your replies are well written but often not based on the facts. I've owned Toyotas since 1990. There are presently 7 in my family. In the rare instance when there has been a warranty question it has been solved immediately on the spot in the dealership. No questions. Last week it was a water pump on my Certified Used Camry with 52K miles. Replaced at no cost. I would be AMAZED if Toyota started weasling on its Warranties for it's Public Relations Flagship Prius. That's just not going to happen.
Regarding the batteries themselves you leave the impression that the entire battery 'might' fail leaving the owner stuck with a massive replacement cost. That too is highly unlikely because as you know the batteries are made of many individual cells. While its possible for one or a couple to wear down over time.... ALL the cells failing at the same time? That's just not going to happen under normal conditions.
Finally on the question of Warranties - in other words Guarantees - Toyota has long had an impeccable reputation for Quality, Dependability and Reliability. Its 5 yr or 60000 mi Powertrain Warranty ( Guarantee ) is based on the well known fact that under normal care and driving conditions you can expect a Toyota engine and transmission to take you 200K miles or more. Having seen this first hand several times on my own vehicles I would expect any Toyota Hybrid to EXCEED it's Warranty period by two or three times without problem. I hardly see Toyota as a company with a gambler's mentality.
If they have put an 8 yr / 100K Hybrid Warranty out there on the Prius at no cost to the consumer it's because they are virtually certain that they WONT have to pay much in Warranty costs during that period. Again from personal experience I wouldn't be surprised if their internal testing didn't lead them to expect upwards of 300K for the battery life expectancy. This is just good business practice.
In the year 2010 there may be a Hydrogen revolution. That would be wonderful. But dont paint a picture of all Prius' dead on the side of the road as all the batteries fail at the same time. That's just not going to happen and sounds like the hope of a 21st century 'flat-worlder'.
Disclaimer: I do sell Prius'. I also own 3 Toyota's and have 4 more in my immediate family. The Prius or TCH will be be my next vehicle.
kdhspyder
That is a bit misleading. Toyota did not give that warranty out of the goodness of their hearts. The hybrid warranty is mandated by the EPA & CA.
From Toyota website:
Hybrid-Related Component Coverage: Hybrid-related components, including the HV battery, battery control module, hybrid control module and inverter with converter, are covered for 8 years/100,000 miles. The HV battery may have longer coverage under emissions warranty. Refer to applicable Owner’s Warranty Information booklet for details.
California mandate on their website:
Such vehicles are certified by the California Air Resources Board (ARB) as partial zero emission vehicles or PZEVs, and Advanced Technology PZEVs (AT PZEVs) because pollution controls are so tight and the burning of fuel is extremely efficient. PZEVs and AT PZEVs meet the ARB's most stringent tailpipe emission standard (super ultra low emission vehicle), have a 15 year/150,000 mile warranty and have zero evaporative emissions.
http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/faq/index.asp
Honda people will tell you they are just as dependable as toyota...expecially the civic...they are right.
2) Prius Hybrids are not new untested TECH...they have been driving around Japan for 8 years now. Honda has had Hybrids for Years.
3) My prius is fully loaded with Power everything a nav. system and upgraded sound (JBL 6 CD through dash and speakers) Air Filtration keyless start and entry (smart Key), Stability Control, fog lamps, HID headlights BLUE TOOTH Phone, Side airbags, Heated outside mirrors Tilt and telescoping Steering wheel with Audio and and climate controls ...(PG 6) Find a car with that equipment and tell me the cost.
And as another poster has stated this is not 'new' technology anymore. The Prius has been around for almost 10 yrs now. The product is already proven. Its just that most of the world has suddenly discovered it since the '04 model came out.
There are already many Prius' here in the States with mileage in excess of 100K and probably even 200K . To my knowledge there have been no reports of sudden battery/hybrid failures when the vehicles turned 100K or 150K. 3 of my clients put 50-70K per yr on their Prius'. The interiors get worn out but the damn bunny inside 'just keeps on going and going and...' :shades:
kdhspyder
Your first statement is curious...such as? A compact vehicle like a Corolla/Civic? Its been covered here and on other sites but you need to first state what is most important in your driving experience.
Gas economy?
Size of the vehicle?
Ride comfort?
Styling?
Interior features?
Environmental concerns?
If you are ONLY comparing gas economy then for sure there are small vehicles like a 2 yr old USED 5 spd manual Echo which will last 10+ years which is a better overall economic decision. Spending $9K for this Echo and getting 37 mpg avg vs $22K for a new Prius which will also last 10+ yrs is a no brainer.
The press focuses on 50-60 mpg but that's not why most owners buy a Prius:
They buy it because it has more room inside, a better ride, nicer features;
They buy it because the styling makes a statement about themselves;
They buy it because if both they and the Echo owner drive 150K miles over 10 yrs the Prius will give off SUBSTANTIALLY less emissions and do a small part to improve the environment.
As Mr Mattox stated there is NO midsize car in the US now priced at $27500 that has VSC, TRAC, Side and curtain airbags, HID, Bluetooth, Navi, SKS and gets 48-51 mpg all the time while improving the environment. That's a no brainer.
kdhspyder
Most drivers are seeing in and around the 40mpg zipcode on the Prius, some better and some worse depending on the geographic area ...... the original warranty was 36/36 until it was mandated to go 100k warranty/150k, so it is an issue - a big issue, and it isn't like the dealers can just reach over to their parts bins in the other room if they need something .l.o.l... ... I think the best analogy was said on the Fox Financial yesterday about hybrids in general .. "If gas went to $9.00 a gallon tomorrow - it would still take you 12 months to retrieve your money back" .......
Terry
I want vehicle stability control
I want HIDs
I want bluetooth
I want NAV
I want 45 mpg
I want a hatch
I want keyless entry/start
I want AT-PZEV
...waiting..............................
BTW... FOX=FAUX
If the comparison is New vs New such as a Corolla/Civic ( ~34 mpg ) @ $17500 SP vs Pkg 2 Prius (~45 mpg ) @ $22500 then the Prius saves $500 a year in gas based on 15000 mi/yr but you then you have to give up the size and comfort of the Prius plus the present typical $500 Tax Incentive. The next Prius' sold will be delivered in 2006 so the Tax Incentive a Corolla/Civic buyer will give up will be ~$2800. Even though the vehicles are not equal in size or comfort the 'recovery period' for the Prius delivered in 2006 will be only 5 yrs vs a Corolla/Civic - but during that time the Prius owner will have a much nicer vehicle.
More importantly though the Hybrid buyer is rarely concerned with recouping a price differential. It's an added benefit but well down the list of reasons to buy. I see it every day. These buyers will take a Prius over other midsize cars like the Camry or Accord for the same reason that a Lexus/Acura buyer will opt for an ES 330 or TL over a Camry or Accord. Does the Lexus/Acura buyer calculate how long to recoup these differentials? Not likely.
BTW in 2006 a typical Prius ( after the Tax Credit ), without Navi, will likely be less than a similarly equipped Camry or Accord. Plus one still gets the gas savings. Thats where FOX is misleading the public. Agenda??
But believe what you wish. It was said on TV.
kdhspyder
Hi kdhspyder! Gee, I don't know what it is, but my six friends who do own Priuses have all sworn on Bibles (well not exactly, but I did grille them pretty hard) that their mileage OVERALL (city/hwy/whatever) is around 41-44 mpg. Sure the clock has registered some fantastic mileages at any given point but when they do the math over months and months it comes out to about this range.
hi falcon! -- I think the VW TDI would meet your criteria for a non-hybrid that matches the Prius features except for certain types of emissions. The VW would have some plusses and minuses against the Prius. On the plus side, it would handle and brake MUCH better and be much more fun to drive. It would be about as fuel efficient in highway driving almost certainly, but overall perhaps 4-6 mpg less so, or in total city driving perhaps 10 mpg less so.
RE: Road & Track -- that's EXACTLY why I like their rating of 41 mpg. They aren't "milking" out the best possible mileage or having fun or playing games trying to achieve top mileage. They are just driving it like they would any other car. So while I also enjoy playing with my car I don't think that all kinds of coasting or "egg under the gas pedal" or driving barefoot techniques are really a fair indication of true MPG.
Also, your friends reports are only anecdotal, whereas R&T kept some 50,000 miles of log books. That's more appealing data to my somewhat scientific mind.
Reliability: Jury is still out. Honestly only one of my friends has had serious problems with a total meltdown of the hybrid drive system. Also I have seen two Priuses on the hook in the past month, but keep in mind that I live in Hybrid Heaven and there are a LOT of Priuses on the road where I live.
Personally I never judge a car's reliability until it has been out about three years. Then all the facts are usually in on the car. VW's record after three years hasn't been very good I must admit.
I want HIDs
I want bluetooth
I want NAV
I want 45 mpg
I want a hatch
I want keyless entry/start
I want AT-PZEV
...waiting..............................
I would trade all the above for good handling, performance & superior braking with a Jetta TDI Wagon. And get an honest 45-50 MPG at 75-80 MPH on the highway. None of the above atttributes are available in the Prius II. If you are a gadget freak and don't care about highway handling, the Prius may be a good choice.
I will agree that the differential in 'reported' mpg ratings may very well be due to semi-fanatical mileage junkies doing the most to milk the Prius for all its benefits; you mentioned coasting as much as possible, driving with 'an egg under the pedal', etc. This seems to a game that many owners play when driving. On Priuschat these are summarized for new owners to use as a potential reference.
But these 'strategies' are also useful if one is concerned about keeping fuel usage to a minimum and emissions as low as possible.
I'd suggest that a reasonable mpg estimate balancing the daily rushing around we all do vs the special strategies one might do if so inclined would be 45 mpg ( 41-44 vs 51-55 ). YMMV.
regards,
kdhspyder
Comparing the 2 is not really valid. They are just too different.
kdhspyder
Can't buy it where I live.
VW dealers suck....
VWs are unreliable..
Way too many other reasons... anyone else?
Don't forget.. it has to have ALL the features in the list above....thanks!
My Prius easily drives on he freeway at 75-80 mph....and still gets good milage in the city..actually even better milage in the stop and go traffic.
*Not to mention it is unlikely to have the poor repair record of a Jetta.
*Can be fueled at ANY gas station. No searching for that special station.
*Is and will continue to legal to buy fuel for, in ALL STATES.
* Is Much better for the environment.
* Is more comfortable to ride in.
As I have said my wife drives our Prius and makes no effort to milk it for milage..and we have always gotten 48-52 Mpg. in mixed driving.
Just kidding but you get the point about the possible difference between a VW TDI owner and a Prius owner. I kid my friends and call their cars "Transportation Modules".
You know, "features" don't all have equal weight to all people. For me, fun to drive (good handling, braking and acceleration) is worth about 10X more than subjective ideas about comfort. I can't trade that away for gas mileage either, as I lose one my my biggest pleasures in day to day driving--fun and "oneness" with the machine, for $500 bucks a year tops in savings. Not worth it to me.
I wish I could be one of those hybrid owners who give good reasons for buying one, but not yet....... :P
PU bed at least 6 feet long
Power enough to pull a 6000 lb trailer
30 MPG highway
ground clearance enough for most CA fire trails
If it is AWD or 4X4 if would have to be good in sandy washes
I like XM radio
Does not need
ABS
ESP
VDIM
XYZ
side air bags
curtain bags
NAV
Bluetooth (cellphones in cars should be outlawed)
I hate the blue HIDs (should be outlawed)
I've had more fun driving a Miata convertable on Maui, VW and Mercedes wagons on the autobahn around Berlin (and the cobblestone excuses for highways on the east side after the wall was opened, passing smoke-spewing Trabants as they skittered down the road - that was an experience!), even a beat up old Suzuki of some type through the mountains of Queensland in Australia, but in my real world day to day the HH is a great vehicle, a kick to drive, very comfortable and gets mileage way above my old van and even the equivalent gas Highlander (we get around 27mpg that when we don't walk includes a commute of about a mile each way, not good for getting top hybrid mileage). I have no regrets with this choice, though it will be nicer once the payments are done! Variety is a great thing....
They may have. Not for sale in this country. XM is more recent than that. And a 30 MPG full size truck may be a push for that time period. I have never needed ABS, ESP or airbags in 48 years of driving. I imagine I have driven on more snow & ice than most people on this forum. Those fancy driving aids give people a false sense of security, leading them to drive too fast for the conditions.
If you take a peak at greenhybrid you will see statistics for over 300 Prius II owners. About 63 owners are reporting mileage between 36-44 MPG. Only 21 are averaging EPA or better. Overall average is 48 MPG, which is very good.
In your normal day-to-day driving;
What percentage of your time is spent needing a cab that seats more than four people?
How many hours per week do you need to use a PU bed of whatever length?
How many hours per week do you usually pull a 6,000 pound trailer?
How many hours per week do you drive on fire trails or in sandy washes?
If your answers indicate that your needs are for minimal numbers of hours of the above per week, then you don't need to buy a full hybrid for those applications. However, if most of your time behind the wheel is spent like the rest of us plebians, you can do fine with a hybrid car 95% of the time. You can keep some gas-guzzling junker in the yard for the other 5% (perhaps a Sierra?).
Mr. ShiftRight, do we have the capability to post pictures of the vehicle's MPG as displayed on the monitor?
When I drive my wife's Prius, i'd get better than 58mpg. The Prius is my wife's car so I don't get to drive it much, but when i filled it up, I would reset the mpg and drove about 50miles or so. When my wife takes over, it would drop down to around 52mpg. My 400h currently displays 30.5mpg for the last ~800miles.
Are pictures convincing enough? or people's minds already made up? I can get you a couples of pictures when I get a chance.
I even went as far as seriously looking for an aftermarket well-made leather seat to put on the Prius!
I best seat I found was on a Xler T&Country minivan. Too bad...
How many hours per week do you need to use a PU bed of whatever length?
4-5 times per week
How many hours per week do you usually pull a 6,000 pound trailer?
Once or twice per month
How many hours per week do you drive on fire trails or in sandy washes?
Four or five times per year
I need the PU many more times during the week than I need the car. So in search of the best possible PU for those needs I would give the hybrids a shot. From all indications they will not be building a full hybrid PU that is usable for all my PU needs. A smaller PU with a diesel would suffice. There are none of them to be had. I don't need another car for the few times a week we go to the library or grocery store. Our average trip is under 3 miles. Which the hybrids have proven to give poor mileage. If I were a commuter I would consider a hybrid. Hybrids are NOT the answer for most people.
kdhspyder
I hope they have improved since 1994. That was the last Toyota I bought. That PU was a black hole I tossed money into, from 11k miles on. Worst truck I ever owned.
A hybrid Tundra would be fine, if they improve the HSD from what is used in the RH & HH. Why no 30 MPG? I am sure a V6 diesel in a 1/2 ton PU would give at least 30 MPG on the highway.
My question is not why not a hybrid...but why not a really fun car like a Miata or a Mustang or a dozen others that will beat the heck out of the VW be more reliable and for the same price or less.
snapshot of dashboard---no, that won't convince me of anything except that you are getting the MPG the dash says at the moment you take the picture.
I like the hybrid site for average MPG of 48 mpg because it has a database of 300....you are only a database of one, and my friends are only a database of 6, so.......if we factor in human error in reporting (always a good idea), the claim of 41-44 mpg looks pretty good to me. Also, you can gain/lose 4 mpg just in headwinds/tailwinds, sloppy tank filling, tire pressures, etc. The difference between 44 mpg and 48 mpg is only 8%, easily within human error.
So let's split the diff and say 46 mpg is what most people are going to get in most types of mixed driving.