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VW Jetta TDI

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Comments

  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I agree, the best time to sell a used TDI is now. Which is why I'm going to wait it out. If you follow my prior posts, I'm basically on the "wait and see" bandwagon. I don't see any reason to pay a premium for a new or used one right now. I'm not an early adopoter....I don't need the latest/greatest and for now the most economical thing for me is to just keep pumping fuel into my truck. I'm only doing about 20k miles per year and even with $4/gas it's hard to justify a second vehicle, although historically I've considered it a luxury. Until I find the right vehicle, it won't make financial sense.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed the boundaries have always been the yearly average drivers rate of 12,000 to 15,000 miles. Most discussions will probably include these metrics.

    Diesels (due to the premiums) usually start to make sense from 20,000 to 25,000 miles per year, or if you have a much longer term outlook, average age of a diesel vehicle and/or both.

    Of topic one reason why we bought an automatic Civic with a commute requirement of 14,300 miles. Indeed the premium for automatic door locks and cruise control were $1,200. So how many use these options with one person in full commute traffic? The 1,200 would be better spent on a diesel option. :shades:
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    I agree with what you said, but you have to understand that the market change, what make sense today won’t make sense tomorrow; one good example is the Trucks and SUVs; just three years ago they were the biggest money making for the big threes, Chrysler, GM, Ford, look at them today nobody want them, and these three companies are cutting cost right and left trying to survive this sudden change in market. And remember they had a lot of market analysis tools and experienced gurus in this field to predict these things and still they did not see it coming that fast. The point I am trying to make is things change pretty fast now in the automotive market, especially every manufacturer is trying to survive this economic crisis. Biodiesel is cheap today but everybody is jumping on the bandwagon and eventually its price will go up; look at the price of vegetable oil how high it went. One more thing, I agree with the fact that diesel is efficient fuel, and there is more BTU in one gallon of diesel than there is in 1 gallon of gasoline; but also it require more oil to make one gallon of Diesel than making a gallon of Gas, and with the low sulfur diesel requirement by the EPA, the cost is going up. Don’t get me wrong, it is cheaper to make diesel than making gasoline, but the taxes, environmentalist, and oil companies don’t want people to drive efficient cars; because they are protecting their revenues. And by the way, I drove diesel all my life in Europe until I came to the USA. I know all the flaw the problems and the maintenance cost for the diesel. I like it has more torque it is good for city driving, you can let your engine idle for 3 hours on ¼ gallon. But my point is the premium you pay for the diesel car plus the gap between price of gas and diesel, are not playing in favor of diesel car, especially if other manufacturer are introducing their own diesel cars;; Unless the price difference between diesel engine and gasoline is only couple hundred dollars. The Jetta is a good car my wife drive one, they are reliable, except for some electrical problems because they are assembled in Mexico.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the key is to buy a diesel vehicle when the market is soft. I think there will be a surge when they first get to the dealers. I agree that paying $3000 or more difference would not be wise. I am not personally interested in the Jetta. Though the Sportwagon seems like it might be a possibility. I will not get caught in a bidding war or pay some dealer a premium to be the first on the block for any vehicle. VW dealers would be advised to take this chance to build new relationships in the US market. VW has a bad reputation for less than reliable cars. If they act like Honda dealers, it will be hard for many buyers to accept. Our local VW dealer was great. They serviced my Passat TDI very well even though it was bought out of state. Used the right oil and charged a lot less than Toyota for service.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Over 300,000 plus population and only ONE VW dealer in the area in which I reside.
    Lack of competition from other VW dealers allows the one dealer to offer terrible sales and service and still prosper......
    No TDI for me unless I happen to relocate.

    VW needs more dealers.
  • bobgwtwbobgwtw Member Posts: 187
    Letslook at another realistic situation - mine. I drive 55,000 miles a year. 55.000divided by 29 + 1897 gl X the $3.80 I normally pay =$7200. a year.
    55.000divided by 40 = 1375 gl X the $4.60 price in my area =$6325 a year. Asavings of $875./yr x the 3 years I normally keep a car =$2625. savings over the gasser.

    For what it's worth I love the way VW's drive & would love to have a diesel version of the new Passat CC; but their absolutely rediculous maintenance costs drive me to the Japanese cars. Acura will have a turbo 2.2 diesel TSX next March rated @ 53 highway MPG; and it won't have $7-800 timing belts & $1200 hundred K service costs.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    I see your post already received a lot of attention but I have to add my own comments too.

    I have a spreadsheet for my TDI which reflects EVERY DROP of fuel put thru it since new.(90,000+ miles now) I can attest that it is cheaper than gasoline in every way. Essentually, gasoline would have to be 1/3 more expensive than gasoline JUST TO BREAK EVEN!

    I agree with you that one needs to consider many aspects of diesel ownership... but your calculations are missing some facts.

    1) The VW TDIs usually get significantly MORE MPG than the EPA estamates. (If it says 40.... expect 47+)
    2) Resale for a TDI often offsets any additional initial cost for the TDI engine.
    3) You are JUST PLAIN WRONG when you say maintenace on a TDI is more expensive than a gasser.

    On item#1;
    The TDI engine MPG improves for at least the 1st 25,000 miles.... mine started to level off at over 60,000 miles.

    On item#3;
    *) OCI (OilChangeInterval) can be 10,000 miles or more. (ending up about the same as gasser at 5,000 miles with cheaper oil)
    *) There are no sparkplugs/wires and related components to ever replace. (a BONUS over gasoline engine)

    Additionaly... NONE of the (CIVIC, or the VERSA, nor the COROLLA) carry the 12-year/unlimited milage warantee that the VWs do. For me living in Vermont, this is extremely important to me becasue cars do not WEAR out... they RUST out.

    BTW: I would like to hear your reasoning behind your claim that TDIs are more expensive to maintiain. Would you please tell us what led you to that conclusion?
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    I respect your point of view; but I do not think you are familiar with the diesel engines. Concerning the maintenance:
    1- you need to change the diesel fuel filter every 20,000 miles or before that, and the reason is simple diesel is not as refined as gasoline.
    2- you need to change the oil every 5000 miles.
    3- you need to clean the common rail injectors after 25,000 miles to keep the MPG up.
    4- This one is the worst; because it cost a lot of money, the timing belt need to be replaced after 60,000 miles to play it safe. The reason you have to do this early is because the belt is made of rubber, the one in gasoline engine is made of steel chain, that is why it does not need to change until after 120,000 miles at least for Honda accord.
    In response to your claim that you can manage 47 MPG from Jetta diesel; I will have to agree, because that's depend on your driving. I get 38 MPG from my 2008 accord, and I get 36 MPG from regular 2001 Jetta, using different techniques of driving. But for comparison purpose I choose to use the numbers from the EPA.
    Another thing, I am still saying that the diesel is cheaper to drive than the gasoline at today's prices, but what I am trying to point out to everybody is the initial premium that you pay to the dealer to get that car, and you do not know if you're going to save that much to justify the cost. But again, it's matter of preference not economic, you like the car, and you wanted it so bad, then you are going to pay the extra money, no justification whatsoever.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Quick response to your previous:

    #1. Fuel Filter: It's about $15 on a TDI and takes less than five minutes once you know what you're doing.

    #2. Oil change is 10k miles on synthetic oil. This is per book. About the same cost as 5k interval on gasser. I've went 12k miles between oil changes on my previous TDI and had the oil tested. Could have gone at least 15k, so 10k is very conservative.

    #3. I've got 180k miles on my common rail Cummins.....never even looked at an injector. Quality fuel goes a long way here though....

    #4. 100k miles is quite conservative for timing belts these days. Honda and Toyota still uses belts on several of their vehicles (my Tundra and Odyssey included) with similar service intervals. An actual timing chain likely will not need replaced at all. Considering the number of cars still out there with timing belts, I'm not sure that's a fair ding on the TDI.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    malmouza your points 2, 3, and 4 are false. 1 out of 4 ain't bad?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have a 2007 Sequoia V8 and it has to have the timing belt changed at 90k same as recommended on the VW TDI. My bet is the V8 belt change will be a lot more than the VW TDI.

    The oil change at 5000 miles on my Toyota Sequoia was $30 more than the VW Passat TDI with synthetic oil at 5000 miles. Toyota Service used cheapo 30 weight dyno oil. You must have had a very crooked dealer on your VW TDI for service..
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    I'll be putting my deposit down today. I may change my mind if they insist on getting over MSRP. He said only 70 would be sold in Las Vegas and 1200 nationwide. Is this true?

    I think you're getting a little bovine byproduct heaped on you... I believe I read something like 14,000 cars for 2008.
  • wideglidewideglide Member Posts: 146
    I think there are a lot of ways of looking at this. Certainly resale values are much higher for the TDI's. Longetivity is another big factor; a well-maintained diesel will last twice as long as a 2L gas engine. Torque is yet another... from all the road tests and driving impressions I've read, the TDI feels much livlier and stronger than the gas models, especially the 5 cyl. Six speed manual vs 5 speed. I also read last night that all scheduled maintenence is free for the first 3 years/36,000 miles.

    And comparing the Civic/Versa/Corolla is moot. They're not even remotely close to the same class of car. You're comparing Japanese econoboxes with an entry level German sport sedan. And you could fit two of those cars inside a Sportwagen! ;)
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    First I did not compare civic and corolla to the jetta, even though the civic will win in most aspects; the coefficient drag for the civic is lower than the jetta 0.27 compared to 0.31, and that’s due to good aerodynamic, the suspension of the Civic is neither too soft or too hard, compared to the Jetta’s soft suspension that does not transmit any feedback from the road, try to take Jetta in back road and push it to it’s limit and you will see the amount of body roll, over steering, and under steering you’ll experience. Then you got safety, the NHTSA crash test is bellow:
    Jetta Civic
    Front passenger 4 stars 5 stars
    Front Driver 4 stars 5 stars
    Side front seat 5 stars 4 stars
    Side rear seat 5 stars 5 stars
    I could keep going just to make my point, and make you understand that there is more to the car business than just price tag on specific vehicle. One more thing Honda sell more Civics in USA than the Jetta does, and for a reason. Don’t get me wrong the Jetta has more standard equipments than the Civic, and better quality material, which justify the extra thousands of dollars reflected in the price tag. Another thing, you cannot use the manufacturer marketing words and call Jetta sport sedan; it is not a sport sedan, the 0 to 60 mph cannot even match the one for Mazda 3. the slalom numbers are away highs for this segment, the body roll, over steer, under steer….etc. To sum it up, it’s a good car for commuting, and long drive, the diesel is the best since it saves you some money, but that may change if the gap between the gasoline and diesel keep widening. Concerning the maintenance for the new 2009 jetta diesel, you are correct is covered for the first 36000 miles by the dealer. They added 60mths/60,000 miles power train warranty, and 48months/50,000 miles bumper to bumper to compete in this market.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    [malmouza] Again, you are apparently misinformed and spreading misleading information. Judging from the content of your appends, I have to assume your sole basis for comparison is the sales-brochures and magazine tests.

    First let me say that when you suggested (in a previous append) that I do not have much experience with diesel engines... Lets just say that I have the skills to REBUILD an engine and am formally trained in engineering. One reason I own VWs is because of my understanding of true engineering skills applied to an automobile design.

    The Jetta will out-handle that Civic under virtually any situation. One reason many people like VWs is BECAUSE of their crisp handling and roadfeel. On the other hand, Hondas tend to disconnect the driver from the road. Many people that have owned VWs and the other vehicles you mention tend to STAY with VW.

    You have the right to your (misinformed) opinions... but your silly comparison of "coefencient of drag" and "slalom numbers" and "0-60" does not have much meaning in real-world driving. You seem to cherry-pick the best of all the VW competitors and use those as "facts" to show VW is not up to par with the competition. Those are numbers that can be measured and put on paper... but do not tell the entire story.

    I will concede that the dealerships that sell VWs tend to be less than stellar when it comes to maintaining the cars they sell. VW has historically had troubles migrating the German concept of maintaining automobiles into North America.

    Also - you forgot to mention the 12year/unlimited milage warantee on the VWs against rusting... that is a VERY important bonus that the Asian automakers would not dare offer. (Here in Vermont... cars RUST out - never do they wear out.)
  • blundyblundy Member Posts: 15
    Gentlefolks, we seem to be having a snit. Perhaps from a real world comparison test, we own a 2002 Jetta with well over 120K on it, a TDI naturally or I wouldn't be getting into this. My son owns a Honda Accord and my daughter owns a Civic. Both Hondas have more miles than my Jetta but that's another story. I have driven all three and I tend to drive closer to AJ Foyt than to Mrs Mc Guillicudy. I love that Jetta for the way it feels glued to the road. I usually navigate 40MPH corners nearer to 60 than 40 except when four legged denizens are around. My son's Accord is lowered with wide tires and heavier shocks and stouter springs. It sticks like glue too but personally I like the feel of the Jetta. The Civic I am sorry to report is not in the same park. It's a nice car and it's coefficient of drag, which isn't much to sweat until you hit way above 60 is not really noticable. As for mileage, the Accord gets right around 31MPG when you drive it nicely. My Jetta gets 44 to 47 even with my foot near the injectors. With the current price of gas at $4.07/gal, the Accord costs my son .1312 per mile. My Jetta at 44 mpg and fuel cost of $4.79 is .108 per mile. With an average of 15K per year, that's a difference of $348 per year or right at 21% more to drive the Accord. The Accord gets oil changed and filter at 3000. The Jetta gets it at 10000. The Jetta has cargo room to spare, The Accord does not. The diesel Jetta should have a lifetime mileage of around 300 K or more. You know the Accord will not without major engine work. Even if both made 300K, the difference in fuel price alone, not even discussing resale value is right around $6960 less to drive the Jetta. The timing belt gets changed about the same time for about the same price. You have to maintain both so it's pretty much a wash, (unless you run into some gemoke from a dealership who failed the mechanics 101 course) When the Jetta fails me, I cuss the Germans. When the Accord fails, my son cusses whoever he thinks made it. Oh well.. I think I prefer the Jetta.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I do not have significant seat-time in the '05+ VW offerings, but I have read reviews that they were a little soft in the curves. Comparing my '00 Jetta with my '07 Civic I owned for a few months.....they're not even in the same ballpark. Soft suspension is usually pretty easy to fix on any vehicle, and the Civic certainly suffers in this regard. I won't hold that against it though because it's an easy fix. Where the Civic drastically weakened driver confidence was in the steering. Very poor road feel, too light, almost sloppy. I never gained a secure feel of driving that car quickly through the curves as the steering response was not linear. The Accord actually drives much better IMHO and has a better steering feel. My Honda dealer gives me a loaner Accord whenever I take the Odyssey in for service and I usually drive it a day or so at a time. Good cars and I usually get around 30-32mpg with them. Still not the same as my prior Jetta but considering the newer Jettas are bigger, they're probably a lot closer. If only I could find a brand-new '00-'05 Jetta TDI somewhere in storage.....I know where there's an '01 with only 50k miles but it's an automatic and gold. Can't do that.... :P
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    [bpeebles]
    Believe what you want, it’s your opinion. When I criticize or prize a product I do not do it because I own the brand, I do it because I tested it I know the problems. I am not spreading the word like you to keep the value of my car high; I care more or less about that because I keep my cars for along time. As far as mechanics is concerned, I have been working on mechanic all my life, I tear my motorcycle engine pieces and fixe it, I do the same to any car engine. I know the flow of the engine design when I take the parts off the engine. Long story short, you are entitled to your own believe. All these automotive critics and gurus of the automotive words, including me are wrong, and you’re right!!! One word for you, look at the sales numbers between Honda and VW. In a race there is no such I almost won, whether you win or you lose. Tks.
  • hebrewhammerhebrewhammer Member Posts: 34
    ..anyone who paid a premium for a hybrid or TDI vehicle will be kicking themselves.

    ..anyone who needed or wanted a truck or SUV and got a massive discount will look like a genius.

    The day is near. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    One word for you, look at the sales numbers between Honda and VW

    I think the above poster has done that for you. VW sells more vehicles than Honda. VW is number 4 in the World. Honda # 5

    Honda could not even compete with VW in the EU until they offered a diesel. NO ONE in the EU wanted their gas cars.
  • hebrewhammerhebrewhammer Member Posts: 34
    Volkswagen has officially turned me off with dealers asking for MSRP, let alone above MSRP, for their new TDI models.

    That could be problematic for them when they are trying to expand their diesel-based offerings in the U.S.

    There are a few problems:

    1) Americans are fairly ignorant of, and even intimidated by, diesels.

    2) Diesel is approximately 74 cents a gallon more than regular unleaded near where I live.

    3) The 'urea' system contributing to emissions compliance sounds like a pioneering move, and some people are going to wonder if this is an inherently reliable system.

    4) I can buy a conventional Jetta new for around 17k, so it would take a LONG time for me to recoup the roughly 7k to 8k premium Volkswagen seems to want for the 09 Jetta TDI (assuming the car sells for MSRP).

    If you drive maybe 40,000 miles per year or more, which few people do, I doubt the TDI is now a rational purchase decision given the premium.
  • pjammepjamme Member Posts: 2
    I have searched for several items and did not find my problem, so am posting in hopes of getting an answer.

    2002 TDI automatic transmission with 170K.

    I have owned for three years and have had this problem almost from the beginning. Initially my battery went dead in Dec of 2005 and I was towed to the nearest authorized repair shop (no local dealer) said I needed a new battery, so I bought one. that following Spring my wife was on her way to Virginia and the Engine light came on so she was towed to a dealer in roanoke, they said she needed an alternator, so she bought one. Then we went on vacation and took her car. When we came back after 7 days the battery was so dead the Odometer and clock were reset and the little red led on the lock was not blinking, so I put it on the charger. Soon after that another dead battery fiasco and we bought another battery from repair shop number one battery was still under warrantee, but you wouldn't know it by the price.
    After several more incidences of letting it sit 3 days or more and having to charge the battery or jump it (I now carry jumper cables permanently) I took it to another repair shop to see if there was a short somewhere causing it to ground out and drain the battery. No success and again another time no success.

    The only strange thing that might be related is I have replaced the driver side brake light at least 6 times or more during that period. The other brake light bulb seems to be a better quality as does the one in the back window.
    It is now July and I am not looking forward to winter as I know it is worse then.

    If anyone has had a similar experience and found the answer I would love to hear it.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    At last somebody is crunching the numbers, I couldn’t agree more with you. You got it right [hebrewhammer] I have been saying this since the beginning. Compare $17,000 gas version of the jetta to $24,670 for the diesel version; that’s $7000 difference, if you keep the car until you retire after 16 years you may start saving money then. Good luck who whoever want to spend that extra money just to drive diesel. In my opinion it should not be more than $1500 difference between gas and diesel.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    I think you're wrong, I am talking about the operation in USA not in Europe or Japan where these two manufacturers operate as there own home of origin. Bellow is a link that will show you that VW need to do more to be profitable for once they need to educate their dealers, they are arrogant et they don’t know how to deal with the customer; and that is the biggest problem no matter how good your cars are, you won’t make a sale unless you treat nicely your customers. VW in 2006 lost 162 billion euro worldwide, last year they made only 4.5 billions euro worldwide, for 2008 they projecting 5.1 billions euro worldwide; they are still far behind to make up for the lost money from 2006, and for the investment they made in development; add to that the recession that is hitting Europe big time, and employment reaching 7.2%, add to that the inflation you got recipe for economic downturn. When you’re looking at the financial data, you need to look at the whole picture to understand what is going on. VW may look for help from the german government if they don't make money fast. http://spbcar.ru/news/en/article/13033/
  • hebrewhammerhebrewhammer Member Posts: 34
    Don't be surprised if oil, and consequently, gasoline and distillate prices drop dramatically coinciding with the wrapping up of the 2008 Olympic Games in China.

    We've seen this movie before. Unless you are a keep-the-faith 'peak oil' prophet (akin to scientology, IMO), we may have found one tenth of one percent of the oil that exists (if even that), and the technology to locate that fossil fuel, to extract it, to refine it, and also to burn it cleanly and efficiently keeps getting better and better and better...

    Don't be shocked to see gasoline and diesel under $2 a gallon again. It will happen. And I'm no Nostradamus.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    VW need to do more to be profitable for once they need to educate their dealers, they are arrogant et they don’t know how to deal with the customer;

    First and foremost, Honda dealers are THE MOST ARROGANT on the planet. Ran me off with their take it or leave attitude on the Accord hybrid I looked at for $35,000. That was the one WITHOUT NAV. Honda has been overcharging for their vehicles a long time. The reason they are so popular in the USA is we have NO real choices compared to the EU and the rest of the World. My local VW dealer bent over backward to take care of my Passat TDI that I did not buy from them. I was in the other day asking about the Sportwagon TDI. They are taking refundable deposits for MSRP on all TDIs. They will take orders to get exactly what you want on your new TDI. I don't even know why I am here comparing an appliance car like a Honda to a driver's car like a VW. The only thing the Honda has going is a good reputation for reliability.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't be shocked to see gasoline and diesel under $2 a gallon again. It will happen

    I agree that it is on its way back down. How long is the real question. I am kind of hoping diesel prices stay high till I get my diesel SUV at a good price.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's stick to the subject here please, which is specifically the TDI Jetta. Thanks!
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    Gas prices and diesel prices are going to stay high, the price will never go under $3; because demand is only going up, more than 1 billion people in china use to ride bicycles, today third of that number is driving cars, because of the fast development more investment and more jobs opportunities, people start affording to pay for a new cars. Returning to the subject of the 2009 Jetta diesel, the EPA numbers are more realistic these days; somebody may say I use to get 50 MPG with my 05 Jetta diesel, I will say there is two factors that made the 09 Jetta numbers bellow what everybody was expecting; first the low sulfur diesel used today, then the restrictive catalytic converter used in the new Jetta to meet the EPA requirements. Take the new 09 Jetta Diesel and change the catalytic converter and you’ll see improvement in the MPG. But again the economy numbers are very disappointing. 30/41 with diesel prices 20% higher than gasoline translates to 20/33, and price of $5000 or more above the gasoline ones. So what exactly has been accomplished here by VW?
    In order to attract people to buy diesel and shift from Prius, VW need to set a fixed competitive price for the Jetta diesel, and increase the production, then, people may start comparing and eventual gain market share. Most of the orders placed now are coming from old customers familiar with the diesel, or those opportunistic people that they want to buy the car so they can sell it for profit on Ebay. VW need to increase the production of Jetta diesel, this price hicks is not playing in there favor, people are not idiot to add $7000 for the same car that they can get in gasoline version; add to that the fact that Honda is coming with the new diesel engine 150 hp and 260 pound-feet of torque, that will be used in the Accord, if the price are competitive people may consider honda over VW because of reliability. Another thing that people need to know Honda has been making diesel cars in europe for a long time; so they have extensive experience in this technology. Honda also is bringing three hybrid cars, this alone will put a lot of pressure on VW, not counting GM, and Ford that they are also releasing multiple hybrid cars; this going to be good for the consumers, just be patient and wait, hold off on buying any car at this time, at least for the next 3,4 months.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I don't think the gas Jetta is anywhere near $7,000 less than the diesel when comparably equiped.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    Did you check the 2009 jetta diesel price on Ebay, it is going for as much as $25800, and still climbing, the bet is not closed yet. the 09 Jetta SE 2.5 turbo is sold for $19000. At this time of this writing no dealer can confirm that he will get you the car by December, because all orders have been taking. That is why a lot of dealer on Ebay they are going to start charging the idiots arm and leg for a car that will be redesigned next year.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Truly. The current diesel difference is more like 2,000 dollars. When you add in the DSG (1,000) then sure it does start to climb. My current understanding is the diesel currently is the SE trim level, another is a Loyal Edition, then Sport Wagon.

    Of course when you really look at it, one could be comparing different TRIM levels. So for example on a Honda Civic (GASSER) , you literally can go from mild to wild

    DX, LX, EX, EXL, GX, Hybrid, Mugen, Si.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    As I stated before, I am comparing Jetta SE gasoline to Jetta SE diesel with automatic transmission. $19000 versus $24650 for diesel this is if you can find one at this price, good luck.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    OK, you were very clear the FIRST time.

    Let me cite the Edmunds.com difference between

    SE gasser manual $19,920

    vs SE TDI manual $21,990

    (21,990-19,920=)

    This would be $2,070

    Even SE auto= 21,020

    TDI auto (SE equivalent)= 23,090

    Also this would be $2,070

    Adding to possible confusion, further my understanding is they are using terms like manual, automatic, AM automatic manual, AKA DSG. So since the TDI does NOT come with an automatic (even as it says it does) , but an automatic manual aka DSG...... you need to find the SE WITH a automatic manual, AKA DSG for the apples to apples comparison.
  • siberiasiberia Member Posts: 520
    Did you check the 2009 jetta diesel price on Ebay, it is going for as much as $25800, and still climbing, the bet is not closed yet. the 09 Jetta SE 2.5 turbo is sold for $19000. At this time of this writing no dealer can confirm that he will get you the car by December, because all orders have been taking. That is why a lot of dealer on Ebay they are going to start charging the idiots arm and leg for a car that will be redesigned next year.

    This argument, if not hypocritical, is at least hollow since Honda, Toyota and others have engaged in this same practice of (in your words) “charging the idiots arm and leg for a car” with special or scarce availability. I doubt it will be any different when, or if, Honda diesels hit the market.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    Is that your argument about the price hick? Copying information from automotive magazine; does not proof anything, I am bringing you the reality. Go to your VW dealer ask for the price, or check the ones that are selling on Ebay. Automatic and manual transmission option is only $1000. that is not the problem. The problem is demand and supply. The first customers will pay a big price. Another thing that buyers are not thinking about it, is the price difference between the gasoline fuel and diesel fuel; just during the summer the difference is close to $1, imagine when it’s winter time and there is a lot of demand on diesel for heating, the gap will widen and the diesel won’t be making any sense to buy it from the first place. Don’t get me wrong, I love diesel I have been driving it for years, until I came to USA from Europe. But over there is cheaper than gasoline; which make sense to buy a diesel. But over here in USA the diesel is taxed higher than the gasoline, and refineries ship the diesel over to Europe because they make more money selling it over there, especially with the Dollar is so weak that the profit they make is huge. This situation alone create a price hick inside the US. Remember, I am here in this forum just helping people to see things that are not always explained clearly. And in the process I learn also from others, from their experience. There is no context to win here except exchanging ideas and advices. God bless.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    No that is not the argument about the price hike. Again if you take the position that things are unprove able, why is anything you say prove able? What you or I ultimately pay is the real proof. I have been to the VW dealer and asked the current prices. Right now, unless you are willing to pay the premiums, now is NOT the time to buy and for a list of reasons. Same was true when Prius' sold for 5,000 and up OVER MSRP!!?? Indeed the prices for Honda Civics (gassers) etc (small cars) has literally skyrocketed . On the other hand, if you have a Civic/TDI, etc., to sell, NOW is the time to sell.

    In so far as the diesel vs gas prices, like model price per mile driven is the ultimate tie breaker Against the03 VW gasser 1.8T vs TDI , just do the math for 29 mg vs 49 mpg. Absolute a no brainer! I do the math EVERY fill up between a 04 Civic gasser 38-42 mpg and 03 VW TDI 48-52 mpg and at current prices, the price per mile driven is and has been consistently cheaper for the TDI.

    From an over all standards (27 mog) and defacto (22 mpg) point of view, the majority pay similar price per mile driven as Europe. Indeed the US small car population (higher fuel mileage) is less than 25%. This means that 75 % of cars get less mpg.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    Read this Post #1916. clear comparaison between diesel and gas....
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    There is nothing like skirting the issues, I have presented. But the unanswered/unacknowledged posts about yours msg #1916 are probably the real issues here. So in effect, I have done the homework and the diesel is cheaper to run that the gasser. You can look over my past posts to see your hypothetical situations (but indeed good examples) does not match past realities, Indeed not even today's reality:

    Corner store

    Rug $4.49 /39 mpg (Honda Civic) =$.115 cents per mile driven,

    D2= $4.99/49 mpg= $.102cents

    D2 obviously costs $.50 cents more.

    RUG costs 13% more per mile driven.

    So if I ran a 03 VW 1.8T with the cheaper Rug @ 29 mpg= .155 cents per mile driven, which would be 52% more per mile driven. Like models as you can see, cost 52% more per mile driven !!

    Evidently you are not doing the very math that YOU advocate others do. :lemon: This is YOUR issue, not mine.

    As you can see, I have done the math. (that you advocate)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    during the summer the difference is close to $1

    Over the last year it has not been over 50 cent difference between gas and diesel in California. It would have to be a lot more than that. You mentioned the price of a VW TDI on eBay. That can be a good indicator of what cars will bring that are in big demand. If you can get a deal below MSRP on a new VW TDI you will not lose money when you go to sell it. Something you have not addressed. Unleaded gasoline is far from consistent in the USA. It can have all kinds of designer additives including the dreaded ETHANOL. Some of those such as ethanol take away mileage. Diesel is much better controlled. It is unlikely you will get a big variation in mileage. The ONLY way to get away from the crappy gas sold in California is to own a diesel vehicle. When gas is $4 per gallon and diesel is $8 per gallon it will no longer be a big advantage. Until then your calculations are not realistic. Or based on sound principles. I am not sure what turned you off on diesel. The two diesels I have owned in the last 3 years were great.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I inadvertantly left off the PUG calculation @ $4.69/ 29 mpg= $.16.2 per mile driven

    So if I ran the 1.8t that would be .162-.102= 59% more. The first calculation using Rug is actually for the VW 2.0.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When given a choice car buyers will likely pick the VW TDI over any Japanese car.

    image

    Do you see any Japanese car in the top ten where a choice is offered? Me neither. The US market is big. Just not indicative of what car buyers want. We only get the dregs dribbled to US.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Now that VW has jumped through all the hoops that CARB has put in their path, it will be interesting to see if VW can meet the demand for their diesel cars. And with their dealers coming out of hard times will they blow with gouging the public. My dealer Drew VW in San Diego told me they were selling the TDis at MSRP. They expect both the Jetta and Sportwagon the end of August. They are taking special orders and expect delivery in 90 days. So you can get a VW Jetta TDI just the way you want it. Try that with Toyota or Honda.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    Sorry to prove you’re wrong again, the financial data on that link just prove what I said before. In 2006 VW lost 160 billion euros, today they are achieving 3.43 billions euro. Do you see what I see? How long will it take for VW to make up for the lost money? Have you been investing money on the market or you just read the headlines? Another thing that you do not know about how VW achieved the profit of 3.43 billions euro? By cutting cost, cutting work force, and cutting all overheads including assets, also they were helped in this quarter by couple newly redesigned cars like the Passat, Audi A4…Now you know where the 3.43 billions euros is coming from!! I guess I rest my case here, you’re talking to someday that is in the market everyday buying and selling stocks, we do not invest our money based on the headlines; we do market analysis of all the details about specific stock. No offense, but try next time to do your homework before bidding on stock or you’ll lose big time.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    With all respect in your calculation is missing a major component, that couple people brought to the picture in this kind of comparison; (How many mile the car will be driven??) the calculation has to be based on the (12000 miles) that average people cumulate on there cars yearly. And you did not mention the premium you’ll pay to get the car, and I will not include the resale value because that is based on speculation, nobody knows what the value of your car will be 2 years from now, specially at this time, when every manufacturer is trying to come up with the best hybrid on the market so they can save themselves from bankruptcy.
    I am going to be generous this time and make only $0.80 difference between the gas and diesel. And I will compare the Jetta diesel to the best car in US Honda Accord. Also I will assume both car do more highway driving.
    1- For the Accord the EPA is 22 city / 32 hway
    2- For the Jetta Diesel the EPA is 29 cty / 40 hway. (I will use the 44 MPG hway)
    3- Yearly cost for Accord based on (12,000 miles and $4/gal for gas) is ($1500)
    4- Yearly cost for Jetta Diesel based on (12,000 miles and $4.80/gal for Diesel) is ($1309)
    5- The yearly difference between the Gas and Diesel is ($191)
    If you keep the Jetta diesel for 10 years you’ll accomplish a saving of ($1910) over what Honda Accord owner will accomplish. Even if we base this calculation on (24000) miles the difference is only ($382) per year, if you paid premium of just $3000 over MSRP it will take 7.8 years before you start making any saving. There you have it, and I rest my case no more arguing about this issue.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Rest your case? The facts either confuse you, nor support your assertions and/or both!! Even the lowest priced Accord costs the same as the VW TDI! When you factor in the lower fue mpg of the Accord, you lose again! Indeed you start to win at the first tank full with the TDI !!!!!!

    I would have gotten the Accord over the Civic, if the numbers were as you say. They were not even close, not then or now. You STILL refuse to do the numbers as you advocate others doing. Your SWAGS do not even come close to your numbers, which is probably why you refuse to do them.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I am going to be generous this time and make only $0.80 difference

    Generous? That's currently the largest spread between RUG and ULSD on a location-to-location basis (research nationwide fuel prices...flyingj.com is a good source for real-time pricing). The average is closer to $.50 difference. Does this make a big difference? Not really but it makes me question the logic of your comparision.

    if you paid premium of just $3000 over MSRP

    I think this qualifies as a dumb move regardless. A few knuckleheads willing to pay a premium over MSRP does not a trend make. If you're going to assume everone will have to pay such a premium, then I will assume the ridiculously (and far more historically correct) resale value on the TDI should be assumed. Both are stastically incorrect. There are suckers born every minute. Ask the dolts that paid MSRP for a new Tundra a year or so ago......

    But either way, these current TDI's bring a lot more to the table than the previous two generations. I paid around $15,000 for mine back in '00, averaged 47mpg on cheaper diesel, put 180k basically trouble-free miles, and got $9,000 for it last year. Which is why I'm currently pumping gas into my truck. Even at 44mpg.....I can't justify the cost of ANY decent 2nd vehicle by cost alone. It will be a luxury to have an extra vehicle for commuting so it better be a good one.
  • malmouzamalmouza Member Posts: 141
    Please do not mislead people, Taking you’re example of FlyingJ which is the cheapest gas station in the country, and not everybody lives next to this gas station, here’s the link of today’s price of Diesel and Gas the difference is more than $1. Gas ($3.69) vs diesel ($4.71) http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D there you have it.
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