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Comments
Diesels (due to the premiums) usually start to make sense from 20,000 to 25,000 miles per year, or if you have a much longer term outlook, average age of a diesel vehicle and/or both.
Of topic one reason why we bought an automatic Civic with a commute requirement of 14,300 miles. Indeed the premium for automatic door locks and cruise control were $1,200. So how many use these options with one person in full commute traffic? The 1,200 would be better spent on a diesel option. :shades:
Lack of competition from other VW dealers allows the one dealer to offer terrible sales and service and still prosper......
No TDI for me unless I happen to relocate.
VW needs more dealers.
55.000divided by 40 = 1375 gl X the $4.60 price in my area =$6325 a year. Asavings of $875./yr x the 3 years I normally keep a car =$2625. savings over the gasser.
For what it's worth I love the way VW's drive & would love to have a diesel version of the new Passat CC; but their absolutely rediculous maintenance costs drive me to the Japanese cars. Acura will have a turbo 2.2 diesel TSX next March rated @ 53 highway MPG; and it won't have $7-800 timing belts & $1200 hundred K service costs.
I have a spreadsheet for my TDI which reflects EVERY DROP of fuel put thru it since new.(90,000+ miles now) I can attest that it is cheaper than gasoline in every way. Essentually, gasoline would have to be 1/3 more expensive than gasoline JUST TO BREAK EVEN!
I agree with you that one needs to consider many aspects of diesel ownership... but your calculations are missing some facts.
1) The VW TDIs usually get significantly MORE MPG than the EPA estamates. (If it says 40.... expect 47+)
2) Resale for a TDI often offsets any additional initial cost for the TDI engine.
3) You are JUST PLAIN WRONG when you say maintenace on a TDI is more expensive than a gasser.
On item#1;
The TDI engine MPG improves for at least the 1st 25,000 miles.... mine started to level off at over 60,000 miles.
On item#3;
*) OCI (OilChangeInterval) can be 10,000 miles or more. (ending up about the same as gasser at 5,000 miles with cheaper oil)
*) There are no sparkplugs/wires and related components to ever replace. (a BONUS over gasoline engine)
Additionaly... NONE of the (CIVIC, or the VERSA, nor the COROLLA) carry the 12-year/unlimited milage warantee that the VWs do. For me living in Vermont, this is extremely important to me becasue cars do not WEAR out... they RUST out.
BTW: I would like to hear your reasoning behind your claim that TDIs are more expensive to maintiain. Would you please tell us what led you to that conclusion?
1- you need to change the diesel fuel filter every 20,000 miles or before that, and the reason is simple diesel is not as refined as gasoline.
2- you need to change the oil every 5000 miles.
3- you need to clean the common rail injectors after 25,000 miles to keep the MPG up.
4- This one is the worst; because it cost a lot of money, the timing belt need to be replaced after 60,000 miles to play it safe. The reason you have to do this early is because the belt is made of rubber, the one in gasoline engine is made of steel chain, that is why it does not need to change until after 120,000 miles at least for Honda accord.
In response to your claim that you can manage 47 MPG from Jetta diesel; I will have to agree, because that's depend on your driving. I get 38 MPG from my 2008 accord, and I get 36 MPG from regular 2001 Jetta, using different techniques of driving. But for comparison purpose I choose to use the numbers from the EPA.
Another thing, I am still saying that the diesel is cheaper to drive than the gasoline at today's prices, but what I am trying to point out to everybody is the initial premium that you pay to the dealer to get that car, and you do not know if you're going to save that much to justify the cost. But again, it's matter of preference not economic, you like the car, and you wanted it so bad, then you are going to pay the extra money, no justification whatsoever.
#1. Fuel Filter: It's about $15 on a TDI and takes less than five minutes once you know what you're doing.
#2. Oil change is 10k miles on synthetic oil. This is per book. About the same cost as 5k interval on gasser. I've went 12k miles between oil changes on my previous TDI and had the oil tested. Could have gone at least 15k, so 10k is very conservative.
#3. I've got 180k miles on my common rail Cummins.....never even looked at an injector. Quality fuel goes a long way here though....
#4. 100k miles is quite conservative for timing belts these days. Honda and Toyota still uses belts on several of their vehicles (my Tundra and Odyssey included) with similar service intervals. An actual timing chain likely will not need replaced at all. Considering the number of cars still out there with timing belts, I'm not sure that's a fair ding on the TDI.
The oil change at 5000 miles on my Toyota Sequoia was $30 more than the VW Passat TDI with synthetic oil at 5000 miles. Toyota Service used cheapo 30 weight dyno oil. You must have had a very crooked dealer on your VW TDI for service..
I think you're getting a little bovine byproduct heaped on you... I believe I read something like 14,000 cars for 2008.
And comparing the Civic/Versa/Corolla is moot. They're not even remotely close to the same class of car. You're comparing Japanese econoboxes with an entry level German sport sedan. And you could fit two of those cars inside a Sportwagen!
Jetta Civic
Front passenger 4 stars 5 stars
Front Driver 4 stars 5 stars
Side front seat 5 stars 4 stars
Side rear seat 5 stars 5 stars
I could keep going just to make my point, and make you understand that there is more to the car business than just price tag on specific vehicle. One more thing Honda sell more Civics in USA than the Jetta does, and for a reason. Don’t get me wrong the Jetta has more standard equipments than the Civic, and better quality material, which justify the extra thousands of dollars reflected in the price tag. Another thing, you cannot use the manufacturer marketing words and call Jetta sport sedan; it is not a sport sedan, the 0 to 60 mph cannot even match the one for Mazda 3. the slalom numbers are away highs for this segment, the body roll, over steer, under steer .etc. To sum it up, it’s a good car for commuting, and long drive, the diesel is the best since it saves you some money, but that may change if the gap between the gasoline and diesel keep widening. Concerning the maintenance for the new 2009 jetta diesel, you are correct is covered for the first 36000 miles by the dealer. They added 60mths/60,000 miles power train warranty, and 48months/50,000 miles bumper to bumper to compete in this market.
First let me say that when you suggested (in a previous append) that I do not have much experience with diesel engines... Lets just say that I have the skills to REBUILD an engine and am formally trained in engineering. One reason I own VWs is because of my understanding of true engineering skills applied to an automobile design.
The Jetta will out-handle that Civic under virtually any situation. One reason many people like VWs is BECAUSE of their crisp handling and roadfeel. On the other hand, Hondas tend to disconnect the driver from the road. Many people that have owned VWs and the other vehicles you mention tend to STAY with VW.
You have the right to your (misinformed) opinions... but your silly comparison of "coefencient of drag" and "slalom numbers" and "0-60" does not have much meaning in real-world driving. You seem to cherry-pick the best of all the VW competitors and use those as "facts" to show VW is not up to par with the competition. Those are numbers that can be measured and put on paper... but do not tell the entire story.
I will concede that the dealerships that sell VWs tend to be less than stellar when it comes to maintaining the cars they sell. VW has historically had troubles migrating the German concept of maintaining automobiles into North America.
Also - you forgot to mention the 12year/unlimited milage warantee on the VWs against rusting... that is a VERY important bonus that the Asian automakers would not dare offer. (Here in Vermont... cars RUST out - never do they wear out.)
Believe what you want, it’s your opinion. When I criticize or prize a product I do not do it because I own the brand, I do it because I tested it I know the problems. I am not spreading the word like you to keep the value of my car high; I care more or less about that because I keep my cars for along time. As far as mechanics is concerned, I have been working on mechanic all my life, I tear my motorcycle engine pieces and fixe it, I do the same to any car engine. I know the flow of the engine design when I take the parts off the engine. Long story short, you are entitled to your own believe. All these automotive critics and gurus of the automotive words, including me are wrong, and you’re right!!! One word for you, look at the sales numbers between Honda and VW. In a race there is no such I almost won, whether you win or you lose. Tks.
..anyone who needed or wanted a truck or SUV and got a massive discount will look like a genius.
The day is near.
I think the above poster has done that for you. VW sells more vehicles than Honda. VW is number 4 in the World. Honda # 5
Honda could not even compete with VW in the EU until they offered a diesel. NO ONE in the EU wanted their gas cars.
That could be problematic for them when they are trying to expand their diesel-based offerings in the U.S.
There are a few problems:
1) Americans are fairly ignorant of, and even intimidated by, diesels.
2) Diesel is approximately 74 cents a gallon more than regular unleaded near where I live.
3) The 'urea' system contributing to emissions compliance sounds like a pioneering move, and some people are going to wonder if this is an inherently reliable system.
4) I can buy a conventional Jetta new for around 17k, so it would take a LONG time for me to recoup the roughly 7k to 8k premium Volkswagen seems to want for the 09 Jetta TDI (assuming the car sells for MSRP).
If you drive maybe 40,000 miles per year or more, which few people do, I doubt the TDI is now a rational purchase decision given the premium.
2002 TDI automatic transmission with 170K.
I have owned for three years and have had this problem almost from the beginning. Initially my battery went dead in Dec of 2005 and I was towed to the nearest authorized repair shop (no local dealer) said I needed a new battery, so I bought one. that following Spring my wife was on her way to Virginia and the Engine light came on so she was towed to a dealer in roanoke, they said she needed an alternator, so she bought one. Then we went on vacation and took her car. When we came back after 7 days the battery was so dead the Odometer and clock were reset and the little red led on the lock was not blinking, so I put it on the charger. Soon after that another dead battery fiasco and we bought another battery from repair shop number one battery was still under warrantee, but you wouldn't know it by the price.
After several more incidences of letting it sit 3 days or more and having to charge the battery or jump it (I now carry jumper cables permanently) I took it to another repair shop to see if there was a short somewhere causing it to ground out and drain the battery. No success and again another time no success.
The only strange thing that might be related is I have replaced the driver side brake light at least 6 times or more during that period. The other brake light bulb seems to be a better quality as does the one in the back window.
It is now July and I am not looking forward to winter as I know it is worse then.
If anyone has had a similar experience and found the answer I would love to hear it.
We've seen this movie before. Unless you are a keep-the-faith 'peak oil' prophet (akin to scientology, IMO), we may have found one tenth of one percent of the oil that exists (if even that), and the technology to locate that fossil fuel, to extract it, to refine it, and also to burn it cleanly and efficiently keeps getting better and better and better...
Don't be shocked to see gasoline and diesel under $2 a gallon again. It will happen. And I'm no Nostradamus.
First and foremost, Honda dealers are THE MOST ARROGANT on the planet. Ran me off with their take it or leave attitude on the Accord hybrid I looked at for $35,000. That was the one WITHOUT NAV. Honda has been overcharging for their vehicles a long time. The reason they are so popular in the USA is we have NO real choices compared to the EU and the rest of the World. My local VW dealer bent over backward to take care of my Passat TDI that I did not buy from them. I was in the other day asking about the Sportwagon TDI. They are taking refundable deposits for MSRP on all TDIs. They will take orders to get exactly what you want on your new TDI. I don't even know why I am here comparing an appliance car like a Honda to a driver's car like a VW. The only thing the Honda has going is a good reputation for reliability.
I agree that it is on its way back down. How long is the real question. I am kind of hoping diesel prices stay high till I get my diesel SUV at a good price.
In order to attract people to buy diesel and shift from Prius, VW need to set a fixed competitive price for the Jetta diesel, and increase the production, then, people may start comparing and eventual gain market share. Most of the orders placed now are coming from old customers familiar with the diesel, or those opportunistic people that they want to buy the car so they can sell it for profit on Ebay. VW need to increase the production of Jetta diesel, this price hicks is not playing in there favor, people are not idiot to add $7000 for the same car that they can get in gasoline version; add to that the fact that Honda is coming with the new diesel engine 150 hp and 260 pound-feet of torque, that will be used in the Accord, if the price are competitive people may consider honda over VW because of reliability. Another thing that people need to know Honda has been making diesel cars in europe for a long time; so they have extensive experience in this technology. Honda also is bringing three hybrid cars, this alone will put a lot of pressure on VW, not counting GM, and Ford that they are also releasing multiple hybrid cars; this going to be good for the consumers, just be patient and wait, hold off on buying any car at this time, at least for the next 3,4 months.
Of course when you really look at it, one could be comparing different TRIM levels. So for example on a Honda Civic (GASSER) , you literally can go from mild to wild
DX, LX, EX, EXL, GX, Hybrid, Mugen, Si.
Let me cite the Edmunds.com difference between
SE gasser manual $19,920
vs SE TDI manual $21,990
(21,990-19,920=)
This would be $2,070
Even SE auto= 21,020
TDI auto (SE equivalent)= 23,090
Also this would be $2,070
Adding to possible confusion, further my understanding is they are using terms like manual, automatic, AM automatic manual, AKA DSG. So since the TDI does NOT come with an automatic (even as it says it does) , but an automatic manual aka DSG...... you need to find the SE WITH a automatic manual, AKA DSG for the apples to apples comparison.
This argument, if not hypocritical, is at least hollow since Honda, Toyota and others have engaged in this same practice of (in your words) “charging the idiots arm and leg for a car” with special or scarce availability. I doubt it will be any different when, or if, Honda diesels hit the market.
In so far as the diesel vs gas prices, like model price per mile driven is the ultimate tie breaker Against the03 VW gasser 1.8T vs TDI , just do the math for 29 mg vs 49 mpg. Absolute a no brainer! I do the math EVERY fill up between a 04 Civic gasser 38-42 mpg and 03 VW TDI 48-52 mpg and at current prices, the price per mile driven is and has been consistently cheaper for the TDI.
From an over all standards (27 mog) and defacto (22 mpg) point of view, the majority pay similar price per mile driven as Europe. Indeed the US small car population (higher fuel mileage) is less than 25%. This means that 75 % of cars get less mpg.
Corner store
Rug $4.49 /39 mpg (Honda Civic) =$.115 cents per mile driven,
D2= $4.99/49 mpg= $.102cents
D2 obviously costs $.50 cents more.
RUG costs 13% more per mile driven.
So if I ran a 03 VW 1.8T with the cheaper Rug @ 29 mpg= .155 cents per mile driven, which would be 52% more per mile driven. Like models as you can see, cost 52% more per mile driven !!
Evidently you are not doing the very math that YOU advocate others do. :lemon: This is YOUR issue, not mine.
As you can see, I have done the math. (that you advocate)
Over the last year it has not been over 50 cent difference between gas and diesel in California. It would have to be a lot more than that. You mentioned the price of a VW TDI on eBay. That can be a good indicator of what cars will bring that are in big demand. If you can get a deal below MSRP on a new VW TDI you will not lose money when you go to sell it. Something you have not addressed. Unleaded gasoline is far from consistent in the USA. It can have all kinds of designer additives including the dreaded ETHANOL. Some of those such as ethanol take away mileage. Diesel is much better controlled. It is unlikely you will get a big variation in mileage. The ONLY way to get away from the crappy gas sold in California is to own a diesel vehicle. When gas is $4 per gallon and diesel is $8 per gallon it will no longer be a big advantage. Until then your calculations are not realistic. Or based on sound principles. I am not sure what turned you off on diesel. The two diesels I have owned in the last 3 years were great.
So if I ran the 1.8t that would be .162-.102= 59% more. The first calculation using Rug is actually for the VW 2.0.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/volkswagen-profit-climbs-31-sticks/story.a- spx?guid=%7BB0CE111E%2D0C8C%2D40FA%2DA4DB%2DF5C6E5B220C2%7D&siteid=rss
Do you see any Japanese car in the top ten where a choice is offered? Me neither. The US market is big. Just not indicative of what car buyers want. We only get the dregs dribbled to US.
I am going to be generous this time and make only $0.80 difference between the gas and diesel. And I will compare the Jetta diesel to the best car in US Honda Accord. Also I will assume both car do more highway driving.
1- For the Accord the EPA is 22 city / 32 hway
2- For the Jetta Diesel the EPA is 29 cty / 40 hway. (I will use the 44 MPG hway)
3- Yearly cost for Accord based on (12,000 miles and $4/gal for gas) is ($1500)
4- Yearly cost for Jetta Diesel based on (12,000 miles and $4.80/gal for Diesel) is ($1309)
5- The yearly difference between the Gas and Diesel is ($191)
If you keep the Jetta diesel for 10 years you’ll accomplish a saving of ($1910) over what Honda Accord owner will accomplish. Even if we base this calculation on (24000) miles the difference is only ($382) per year, if you paid premium of just $3000 over MSRP it will take 7.8 years before you start making any saving. There you have it, and I rest my case no more arguing about this issue.
I would have gotten the Accord over the Civic, if the numbers were as you say. They were not even close, not then or now. You STILL refuse to do the numbers as you advocate others doing. Your SWAGS do not even come close to your numbers, which is probably why you refuse to do them.
Generous? That's currently the largest spread between RUG and ULSD on a location-to-location basis (research nationwide fuel prices...flyingj.com is a good source for real-time pricing). The average is closer to $.50 difference. Does this make a big difference? Not really but it makes me question the logic of your comparision.
if you paid premium of just $3000 over MSRP
I think this qualifies as a dumb move regardless. A few knuckleheads willing to pay a premium over MSRP does not a trend make. If you're going to assume everone will have to pay such a premium, then I will assume the ridiculously (and far more historically correct) resale value on the TDI should be assumed. Both are stastically incorrect. There are suckers born every minute. Ask the dolts that paid MSRP for a new Tundra a year or so ago......
But either way, these current TDI's bring a lot more to the table than the previous two generations. I paid around $15,000 for mine back in '00, averaged 47mpg on cheaper diesel, put 180k basically trouble-free miles, and got $9,000 for it last year. Which is why I'm currently pumping gas into my truck. Even at 44mpg.....I can't justify the cost of ANY decent 2nd vehicle by cost alone. It will be a luxury to have an extra vehicle for commuting so it better be a good one.