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VW Jetta TDI

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Comments

  • tdidawgtdidawg Member Posts: 8
    Thanks. In the south we do not have many mornings when we need to defrost like y'all do up north. My 05 has been flawless like I said, but I was just wondering about any differences in the break-in period with the latest TDI iteration. I opted for manual because I heard from others about DSG not being quite right on the TDI. I'd like to see some empirical data on that and not just anecdotal conjecture. It was not a big deal because I prefer the manual tranny anyway. I appreciate your comments tangledup.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    You chose wisely... the Manual xmission is far more reliable than any of the other choices of xmission.

    Dont forget that the DSG is really 2 manual xmissions that shift themselves with dual clutches that swap back and forth between them. All controllled by a computer which "knows" how much accelleration you are asking for with the throttle pedal along with 50 other sensor inputs

    Dont get me wrong, from perspective of technology and abilities, the DSG is perhaps one of the best "automatics" on the planet. However, it is very complex and requires constant maintenance to keep it working smootly. (fluid changes...etc).

    A properly-shifted manual xmission can match the DSG in smoothness and MPG. Many people do not want to take the time to learn how to REALLY drive a manual xmisison. For those folks, there is the DSG.... and spend $$ to keep it running.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Many people do not want to take the time to learn how to REALLY drive a manual xmisison. For those folks, there is the DSG.... and spend $$ to keep it running.

    Arrogance and condescension is prevailing attitude from manual drivers toward drivers of automatic transmissions. Choosing to drive automatic does not equate to lack of skill to operate a manual. Using myself as an example, I can drive vehicles from a tractor to a semi-trailer truck to a race car and do so with skill. I choose to drive an automatic because I want to.

    DSG or manual transmissions are welcome choices with TDI.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    While a manual can be fun to drive. It is not for everyone. My wife loved driving her 911 manual until her arthritis made it too painful. So she bought a 928 Porsche automatic. Which she did not like as well. So after a few MB she ended up with a 1990 LS400 and has driven that ever since. If you are in pain each and every shift it is not fun to drive. So the DSG is a welcome addition.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    Right - but - anyway you toss it, manual transmission is cheaper in a long run...maintenance, repairs, longevitivity, etc. Same goes for diesel engine - proven technology!
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    ooops - longetivity
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,084
    longevity

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  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    yeah...that's it....spell check on my MacBookPro is acting up....sorry!
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    That was my point... some folks took it the wrong way.

    Over the years, in EVERY case where I opted for the less-expensive manual xmission over an automatic... several years later, folks right here on Edmunds were complaining about how their automatics (of same age as my manual xmission) were needing expensive maintenance or repairs.

    My main point is that ANY automatic xmission, no matter what brand vehicle, will need fluid-changes, adjustments and will tend to fail more often than identical vehicle with manual xmission. ... and if it is not a DSG, it will get several MPG less to boot!!!

    To my mind, it is ludricrus to pay MORE MONEY for a peice of equipment (automatic xmission) that will cost me more to maintiain, more to operate and may break more often. With the US econemy in a death-spiral, our government printing trillions of dollars and spending it faster than the printers can print it. I cannot afford such blatent extravigances as an automatic xmission. (The tax man needs the $$ I would have spent on automatic xmission...he will be visiting you too)

    Being an engineer, I once "ran the numbers" and considerd everything from initial purchase-price, recommended maintainence, lowered MPG... all the way to estamated failure and repair-costs. (Manual -vs- automatic xmission) Lets just say that it was an eye-opening comparison. Amoritized, an automatic-xmission is not a very good inventment. It is obvious to me why ONLY IN AMERICA the automatic-xmission outsells the manual.

    Of course, some folks PHYSICALLY cannot manipulate a manual xmission. My knees are an example... but I grit my teeth and keep pushing that clutch.
  • sellaturcicasellaturcica Member Posts: 145
    There's nothing proven about the new common rail diesels, particularly the ones that can pass US emissions. European diesels are running into expensive repairs. Today's diesels have little in common with the tractor engines of the 1980s that ran forever.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    Well, being a mechanical engineer as well, I can only say:

    Diesel engines last a lot longer than gasoline engines. This is because gasoline destroys lubrication and diesel fuel doesn't. Cold start-ups are a real killer for gasoline engines because of all that extra gasoline needed to start a cold engine.

    Also, being from Europe (lived in Germany, Switzerland and Czechoslovakia) I don't remember any "expensive" repairs on diesels other than changing injectors.

    I have not heard of any "expensive" repairs on common rail diesels. There are no moving parts on common rail; it's a simple fuel distribution system. Have you?
    That said and being that it's a fairly new technology, I am not sure where you get your data.

    We would like to hear some possible "expensive repairs" from you then....
  • oli1oli1 Member Posts: 33
    I understand what you're saying about automatics. When I graduated from HS, I bought a '68 Charger with a Torque Flite auto transmission. I think around 60K, and 5 years later I needed a transmission overhaul and decided I really liked the car and didn't have the money for another car I dreamed about, I went with AAMCO life time warranty. I think then it was about $400 - 500. I sold the car about 5 years ago with about 3/4 of a million miles on it with the same rebuilt transmission. As long as I kept bringing the car back to AAMCO for the free service I never had to worry about another transmission as long as I owned the car.
    I had a great worry free transmission for 36 years
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think diesel engines last longer because they are structurally stronger. Due to enormous compression pressures, they have stronger blocks and internals. So really it's an "iron age" type of strength, not really too much to do with technology per se.

    Of course, the diesel has been around almost as long as the gas engine, and has developed along with the other.

    Also I think in the real world, the life expectancy of a diesel engine in a passenger car is perhaps another 25K--50K miles---at least that's what I've read, statistically speaking.

    So instead of a planned death at 175K for the gas engine, you'll get 225K on the diesel. Not bad if you're driving 12,000 miles a year!!
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    WOW - that's impressive! I thought those "life-time" warranties were waste of money.
    But then again, I owned very few American made cars in my 40-or so years driving...
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    I agree here, that is also one of the reasons (cast iron versus other materials used for engine blocks) but a doubt was raised earlier with "...new diesels with common rail possible expensive repairs...".and that seems to be a new technology...
    Had anyone out there experienced "expensive" repairs with common rail diesels?
    I am curious to know....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    what's "expensive" is labor rates on *any* complex device.
  • longo2longo2 Member Posts: 347
    Well Mr Shiftright, your broad brush stokes about the extra strength of diesel engine ignores a very important point. The BRM engine in my 2006 TDI has a serious weakness that will eventually stop my car in it's tracks.

    The camshaft that drives the valves and injectors under very extreme pressure is getting a bad reputation for wear on the lobes and lower cam bearings, and to make the repair even more expensive, the lifters are cratering too.

    VW's rush to the new common rail fuel delivery system came 2 years too late for the engine in my Mk V.
    I really don't expect to get 200,000 miles out of mine before the engine starts to limp home to the nearest dealership. Might happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Some of the documented Bad Cam-Cases were from engines that have had VW insane oil specification changes right from mile one...so lets not start another engine Oil-forum link on that.

    The legendary diesel engines are only as strong as their weakest links.
  • waterleaksnjwaterleaksnj Member Posts: 1
    Just paid $2200 to replace my water saturated carpets - not covered by VW. Since 1998 VW has knowned that clogged drainage from the pollen filter and drainage channels from the sunroof causes severe water leaks from the front engine area onto the front carpets. But they have not changed the design, have not warned owners, have not educated service dealers, and do not routinely clean out these cloggs even though we had routine maintenance performed. Thanks VW. Major chanes are needed.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    I didn't know that about Jettas. There was a recall notice for this problem in Passats (it affected my '03 model). They removed two "one-way" seals from the air plenum compartment, cut the ends off the sunroof drains, and called it "good."
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    my understanding was that it's just a few 06 TDIs that have the possible cam lobe weakness. maybe it's just certain VIN-range of BRM engines. There were two different TDI engines for 06 - I'm not sure which engine designator matches my 06 - but I think mine is the "newest possible 06 TDI" - not the 06 TDI that is actually a rebadged 05 TDI.
    80k miles on my 06 TDI so far - no indication of cam or any other problems, aside from the suspension getting far too squishy/soft for my taste. seems like it needs struts.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    Well, someone suggested that VW has "lifetime corrosion warranty" (on these pages earlier).
    I guess, using that argument, you should have waited until your floor rusts away and then claim it under "lifetime corrosion" warranty... so much for that "warranty"....
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    And this is also one of the reasons why Subaru did not bring their Forester Diesel to the U.S. - they don't have the proper automatic transmission.! In Europe it's already the 2nd year running but with manual transmission only!
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Unless you pull the top off the motor, you won't notice anything on the cams. Until they start really coming apart. It's a pretty big problem on BRM engines, particulaly if you don't use the exact spec oil (which dealers aren't known to get right). My neighbor used the oil the dealer recommended...which was off just slightly. His flew apart around 120k miles. I know a couple other guys that pulled the valve cover and found the wear early and replaced the cams/lobes before they really tore everything apart. These were folks using the correct spec from day one. It's a bad design and why I won't buy an '05.5-'06 TDI used. Imagine the average dummy that doesn't even try to spec the correct oil.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    no sympathy here for anyone who does not use the correct/505.01 oil, or anyone who does not verify that the dealer/mechanic has used the correct oil.
    Sometimes I have insisted that the dealer show me the empty bottles from the oil they used.
    But after 500k miles on 5 VW TDIs all serviced perfectly at the same dealer, I trust them!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    So this is really a metallurgy problem, right--nothing to do with the fuel rail?

    Soft cams are nothing new. Volvo made them out of rubber for almost 20 years (B18, B20 engines) ---but the cars ran that way anyhow---just more slowly.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Well, the average consumer is not used to researching these types of oil specs nor are they (and should they) be used to double-checking what a dealer uses. So in short order, these cars become big gobs of scap iron to someone that's not spending their days researching oil. I've always said, the TDI is not for the average consumer and I say they twice for the newer models. That's why they'll never be a mainstream vehicle here. I can buy a Malibu/Accord/etc. and not think about anything for 100k miles. Certainly not worrying about my engine grenading early because someone used 505.01 vs 505.xx etc.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    and, after reading all these horror stories on these pages about oil and dealers, I decided to change oil myself at 7000 miles intervals (rather than 10,000) with correct oil (Full Synthetic Castrol SLX-Gold - SAE 5W-30, Professional LL03, VW 504 00/ 507 00, ACEA A3/B4, C3) and filter from tdiparts.com
  • longo2longo2 Member Posts: 347
    On this, OMG the camshafts shot, ($2000.00 in parts) subject, there are pages of comments by TDI owners who are trying to 'back engineer' a solution to the problem, (Google it) as they own TDI's that have blown out the cams, lifters and bearings.
    Here's a kind of 'bottom line' on what these guys have concluded so far is the list of cam shaft issues on the VW PD TDI's

    1.. Narrow cam lobes wearing out the top of the flat lifters
    2.. Steel rather than cast iron cam
    3.. Low ZDDP levels in current oil (other missing additives as well)
    4.. Poor support for bottom cam-bearings allowing them to distort
    5.. Cocking cam bearings causing uneven wear
    6..Early copper release from cam-bearings bonding to the lobes
    7.Oil holes covered and placed in a loaded area starving lubrication
    8..Other things

    So this combination of problems ganging up on the camshaft equalls big $$$ to fix and no happy faces in the waiting room. :mad:
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    [Mr_Shiftright] The answer to your question is NO! it is not a simple metallurgy problem and it is not on a "common-rail" engine...This is the PD (Pumpe Duse) engine which has seperate cam-driven injection pumps for each cylinder.

    VW only sold the PD engine for about 3 years. (Thank god!) The camshaft not only operates the INTAKE and EXHAUST valves... but VW added 4 more cams to the camshaft to drive the high-pressure injection pumps.

    To make all 12 cams fit on the camshaft, they had to make the cam lobes "skinnier" in width. Unfortunately, this GREATLY increased the loading between the lobes and the the surfaces they push on.

    To compensate, VW came out with a "beefed up" oil specification. (changed from 505.00 -to- 505.01) This new 505.01 specification included special friction-modifiers to compensate for the increased cam-lobe loading.

    If the wrong oil was used EVEN ONCE... the cams would likely sustain microscopic damage which over-time would lead to failure. (metal particals may imbed in other parts of engine too)

    This was not VWs best engine-design... the PD was a stop-gap between the ol 1980's based engine-block and the new common-rail engines they are selling today. I dare say it was developed too quickly without the necessary years of testing that makes a reliable engine design.

    I hope this answers your question.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    seeby95, we must have a different definition of 'average consumer' or 'research', since you imply that the average consumer is stymied by reading their car's owners manual and getting the proper oil!

    as for TDI never being a vehicle for 'average consumer', it sounds snobby to me, man. you and I are smart enough to handle getting oil that meets or exceeds manufacturer spec, but 'average person' is not? i call "horsepucky".
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    In the past my main point by saying the TDI is not for the average consumer is because they'll be beat-up by the abnormally high cost of dealer maintenance and repair. Offsets the fuel savings pretty quickly. Someone like myself (and perhaps you and other enthusiasts) that will take the time to buy a VAG and do all the maintenance ourselves can actually operate the vehicle very economically. I ran mine for 200k miles and it was a very good investment overall. IF I had to rely on a dealer for service/repair over that period I likely would have thought very differently.

    Fast forward to the PD engines and you start having these special spec oils and it doesn't take a lot of research to see the "average" consumer either 1. Does not read the manual concerning oil spec (really, why would they) or 2. Reads the spec but is confused by 505.xx vs 505.xx vs what dealer tells them (i.e. my neighbor who is an engineer so I figure he's capable of figuring it out better than the next guy). That leaves #3 being the truly average consumer that not only is disadvantaged by the fact he uses the dealer for maintenance but now is supposed to double-check the dealers work based on spec's in the owners manual he probably could care less about and may not understand anyway.

    Am I being snobby? I'm not sure how unless someone is just taking it personally. The fact is, the average consumer does NOT want to be bothered with maintenance or even opening the owners manual if they can help it. The fact that most automakers tout their minimal maintenance pretty much confirms that.

    And if that's not enough, go read the other TDI forum and the number of confused owners trying to figure out why their engine melted down.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    TDI is not for the average consumer is because they'll be beat-up by the abnormally high cost of dealer maintenance and repair.

    I am not sure about repair. I know that my 05 Passat TDI oil changes with the high priced oil was less at the dealer than Toyota dealers charge for oil changes on my 07 Sequoia. And Toyota uses cheapo 30 weight dino oil. Though I did check to make sure the dealer used the correct oil, which may be more than the average owner wants to do. You cannot take the TDI to a fast oil change shop and expect them to carry the right oil.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    Some fast oil change shops will do it if you bring your own oil and filter - they just charge you labor and disposal fee.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes that's very interesting actually. Not the first time I've heard of unfortunate stresses from basic design features, affecting an engine in this way. Sounds like no metallurgy short of NASA could have withstood that.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not sure about VW. Most of the German makes now offer free maintenance for the extent of the Warranty. That makes it easier to use the dealer. I use Walmart for my older vehicles as I started using Pennzoil decades ago and old habits are hard to break. That is their standard oil around here. I have never used a fast change shop for a vehicle under warranty. GM always sent coupons for free service when it was due.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Yes, VW now offers free maintenance through 36k miles. Of course the expensive stuff is all scheduled for 40k+ ;)

    And the number of folks posting on other sites that had the wrong oil (or drastically overfilled) are surely just a drop in the bucket compared to the number of average consumers that left the shop fat dumb and happy (but with the wrong oil).
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    Yes, free maintenance which includes oil changes - but - some dealers will not let you walk into their service bays (due to insurance reasons) so even if you ask tech. service advisor to use the right oil, you are never sure that they actually use it.
    Therefore, the only "sure" thing is to do it yourself.
    Hopefully, by 40+ K I will be sitting in a Subaru Forester diesel....
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    average consumers that left the shop fat dumb and happy (but with the wrong oil).

    Are they feeding donut's to the conumers or something?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I don't think he was being snobby at all. He just implied that the average consumer doesn't want to be bothered with knowing what exact oil must be used or about many other mechanical things. I also don't think that he meant the average consumer couldn't handle it but didn't want to and I totally agree.

    The people posting here certainly aren't "average consumers" let alone the people that come and just read the posts. To the average consumer a car is just a piece of equipment for transportation. I believe it's a lot more to most of us that frequent these forums.

    I certainly don't want to have to check that my dealer used the right oil.....that's why I'm paying dealer prices(which I know sometimes is actually less w/coupons, etc). It's pretty pathetic if you can't trust your dealer to do that simple task. It's also pretty pathetic to design an engine that needs such specific oil IMO.
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    I wonder if you can bring the car in at 35,000 miles and have them do the first DSG service?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Probably not the manufacturer is usually very specific on when they will do services and if it is early they won't do it.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    ok, maybe I was reading too much into it with the snobby idea - folks can judge for themselves whatever!

    for those buying a TDI used maybe it is difficult the leap of faith that the previous owner cared enough to read the side of an oil bottle "505.01" and pay the extra ~5 clams per quart.

    Even with the faithful in-spec 505.01 oil, maybe metallurgical limitations and karma will melt my TDI's camshaft tomorrow and I'll wish for an average car, something like a Prius.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I certainly don't want to have to check that my dealer used the right oil.

    Sadly it is a fact of life that all dealerships make mistakes. Even Lexus putting the wrong floor mats in a car that was the possible cause of 4 people being killed. There are a lot of reports of transmission failures due to wrong fluid being used. Most of the time the failures happen way past the warranty. It is buyer beware on all vehicle maintenance. I have always tried to stay close enough to see what the tech does to my vehicle. If I owned a current VW TDI I would watch like a hawk to see what they are putting in the engine and transmission. Unless you are not going to keep the car past the warranty. Then no problem.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I agree that it pays to check but I still think it's a pathetic state of affairs that it's necessary.

    From what I've read of the incident, I think the floormat thing was the dealer putting in aftermarket mats to protect the factory mats from getting dirty as the car was a loaner. I read they were put on top of the existing factory mats which created both a thickness and a sliding issue. The stock mats I believe are held fast by a hook. At least the ones in my '03 Tundra are.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    You said ==> "Unless you are not going to keep the car past the warranty. Then no problem. "

    Warantee???.... you are not living untl after your car is paid off and your are stashing equivalant cash into an account to make down payment on NEXT car. (after 200K miles)

    Also keep in mind that there are several flavors of "warantee". There is the standard MFG warantee. The Federal Emmissions warantee, Corrosion warantee... even an occasional Mfg. extended-warantee on componenets they deem need to be covered.

    If one is savvy at researching this stuff, often your car will be 'covered' in one way or another for a long time.

    Case in point -- my daughter has a 2001 VW Golf she purchased used. Before 100K miles, VW had replaced MAF sensor, Catalytic-converter and several other items. (becasue all emmissions-related equipment is coverd under the Federal Emmissions Warantee)

    I had the ECU (Engine Control Unit - computer) replaced on my Subaru at around 60K miles... also covered under the Federal Emmissions Warantee because it is considerd emmissions-related equipment.

    These warantees are there for ALL of us... but the dealerships may not tell you about them unless you ask. It is Federal Law that all new cars must have a copy of the Federal Emmissions Warantee included with the sale.

    People that do not take 40 minutes to READ every word on their paperwork/owners-manual to learn these things deserve what they get.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If I was to keep a vehicle until it hits 200k miles I would be too old to drive. My wife's 1990 Lexus LS400 has not hit 100k miles yet and is still running too well to sell. Most vehicles I buy and keep less than 3 years. I am an opportunist. Buy low sell high. I am still waiting for the perfect vehicle that I am willing to drive more than 3 years. NOTHING sold in the USA excites me in the least. So I wait for a great buy on a tolerable vehicle. Keep it until the market swings up and sell, with little loss of my cash. Most of the time it does better that way than in the bank. It does not look like VW will bring enough TDI's to the market for the price to get low enough to tempt me. Unless they put the 2.0L TDI in the Tiguan for US sales. I kind of like that little CUV. I should have bought all the 05 Passat Wagon TDIs I had the opportunity to buy well below Invoice in the Spring of 05. I would have made money on every one of them.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    What year and model of Subaru do you refer to? My son has 05 Forester with about 50 K and I want to see, what to expect. Thanks.
  • jogousajogousa Member Posts: 402
    I am glad there is someone out there like me. I also keep new cars for appx 3 years.
    Most of my previous cars, like Mazda, Toyota, Lexus, Benz, BMW, Volvo, Audi - in this country and Fiat, Peugeot, Renault, Simca and Citroen in Europe, I had absolutely no problem selling privately. I never traded my used car to a dealer. The only problems selling here were Range Rover, Land Rover and Saab - I took a bath on those.
    After 40-some years in this country I found Subaru to be the car that excites me most. Can't wait for that diesel to hit these shores! From American cars, the only one that I bought 3 times in a row was Chevy Suburban (but that was only because I had a boat to tow and a family of 4 with frequent camping trips all over the country).
  • sandman52sandman52 Member Posts: 36
    I have a friend who has a 2006 Jetta TDI that has an annoying auto lock setup that he would like to change if possible, and was hoping someone here might have a quick answer to the problem.
    Unlike my 2005.5 Jetta TDI, if his doors are unlocked, and he opens the trunk to add or remove something, when he closes the trunk lid, all the doors then lock too, without any command from the key fob remote.
    Anyone know how to reprogram this?

    Thanks
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If the Jetta Wagon TDI was AWD and a bit better ground clearance, I would be fine with one. The Subaru Outback with diesel would be even more to my liking. This country needs more options with 4 cylinder diesel engines. In cars, SUVs and PU trucks. If the government is serious about saving fossil fuel and cutting CO2. I don't believe they are.
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