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"Drive it like you stole it."
"Drive the torque".
I saw that ruking posted on freds forum recently; I bet he'll be back here with some crucial summaries & TDI info.
my TDI has been parked for weeks; I've only been driving 05 GTO with its new suspension, and the same mpg as a stage 2 EVO .
It's also a bit lop-sided to say that all VW owner anecdotal reports are accurate and all auto magazine data-logged reports aren't (or vice-versa). This suggests our human tendency to cherry-pick the data as we would like to see it. We need to look at the *best* and the *worst*.
I personally try to avoid either extreme and just point to EPA data, which, since revisions, has proven to be pretty darn good as a rule.
If I buy a TDI wagon (and I just might) I would go in expecting no more than 36 MPG average. So the worst that could happen is that I'd get 36, and if I exceeded that, I'd be more than satisifed.
If I bought the car expecting the 47 mpg reported by Mr. X's blog, as true as it might be for him, I'd probably be disappointed.
Here are some results I found:
Motor Trend Longterm ---- 34.9 MPG
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Edmunds Longterm ---
Best Fuel Economy: 43.0 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 28.0 mpg
Average Fuel Economy: 34.4 mpg
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Car @ Driver Longterm (39,000 miles) ---- 38 mpg
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Popular Mechanics ---- best ever MPG 45 mpg
worst ever MPG 25 mpg
(this averages to 35 mpg)
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Consumer Guide (23,500 miles) 38. 4 MPG
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49 mpg for my 2003 jetta TDI, for example.
And exactly 37 mpg for my 2005 passat TDI.
EPA numbers were *spot on*.
So it stands to reason that since EPA "lowered" their formula for all vehicles, they would now be substantially under-rating the TDIs which had no problem matching the "old formula" EPA numbers.
You see how that doesn't really, "stands to reason" ?
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This sounds more like cherry-picking of data than comprehensive data. One cannot wipe away the auto mag data just because it might not agree with a certain conclusion.
The longterm tests were for 2009 TDIs by the way---but good point you made.
You may recall a similar situation occurred when the Prius came out---everyone expected 50+ MPG and most people ended up with 41 MPG.
Why? Because they did not drive the Prius in conditions that were highly responsive to the best possible MPG. (that is, slow city driving).
Perhaps those TDI drivers who stay in the torque zone, do not over-rev, use cruise control, live at sea level, etc., will consistently beat EPA while the less skillful or geographically challenged (with weather or traffic) will never even meeet EPA.
Exceeding mpg for the new EPA formula is more the rule and not the exception for TDI.
For those struggling with mpg, short trips in the TDI decrease average mpg significantly.
Very good point! A cold engine gets poor MPG and the TDI takes about 3x longer than a gasser to get up to operating temp. (Engine computer will inject xtra fuel until engine comes up to operating temp.)
Reciently, I was getting less than 700 miles per tank of fuel.... It turned out the ETS (Engine Temparture Sensor) had gone bad and was reporting to the engine-computer that the engine was always 'cold'. Hence, the computer was injecting too much fuel all the time.
BTW: I have ALWAYS been able to beat the EPA estamates on EVERY vehicle I have ever owned! (even motorcycles) I look at the EPA estamates as the very LOW end of what I should expect for MPG.
Considering the efficiency of the TDI at straight-on highway speeds it's easy to understand in my mind how beating an EPA number wouldn't be hard. In most every gas vehicle I've owned I tend to hit or beat the EPA highway number (the Odyssey being the exception) even running 70-75mph. The EPA tests for highway is at a lower speed for a shorter distance but also includes some non-typical long highway attributes like several bursts of WOT and 80mph legs with an overall average speed of 48mph. I had no trouble beating EPA numbers on my Jetta and I drove the snot out of it.
Once again, the auto mags logged their averages over many tens of thousands of miles, and *average* means that you clip off the edges of the bell curve in the data points---so those of you getting 25 mpg or 45 mpg are thrown out of the *average*.
Also EPA does various testing cycles, some of which are not under ideal conditions for economy.
I only bring this up so that some TDI future buyers are not disappointed by getting "only" 36 MPG. That's what you're supposed to get. If you get more, well, good on ya'.
My observation, based on 'estimates of drivers like you' on the EPA website, is that the average mpg for all diesel powered cars - VW, BMW, MB, Jeep - run closer to the 'hwy' rating than the 'avg' rating. Averages for gasoline powered cars are usually pretty close to the advertised 'average'.
If it matters, a VW JSW forum seems to verify the 35-42 range as average.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=260851
The mags also verify that their averages are closer to EPA hwy than EPA city, so really, both sides of the argument have their points.
It's pretty clear both from the EPA as well as anecdotal reports that the 2009/2010 models get slightly lower mpg then the 06s & earlier - maybe because so few are broken-in yet.
Or maybe because the newer models will never get as great EPA-highway-matching mpg as do the 2006 & prior models...
best regards...
Mr. Taylor and his wife, Helen, had completed a 48-state drive averaging 67.9 miles a gallon: 9,505 miles in 19 days, filling up only 13 times and spending a total of $371.03 for diesel fuel. That beat the Guinness record of 58.8 miles a gallon they set a year ago on nearly the same route in an almost identical 2009 Jetta TDI.
One difference this time was the tires. The Jetta was fitted with Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max tires, low-rolling-resistance models that will be standard equipment on the 2011 Chevrolet Volt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/13/automobiles/13MILEAGE.html
They doubled the EPA estimate. Has any other vehicle come even close?
First place went to the team of Donald Buffamanti of AutoSpies and Jaime Florez of Ruedas ESPN with a 52.8 mpg rating that would even impress a Prius.
The gold medal winners got more than just praise, however, as Hyundai Motor America CEO John Krafcik offered to treat anyone who could beat his personal time of 47.8 mpg to a private dinner.
This is on a car that has an EPA average of 28mpg I think. They almost doubled the EPA average of 28mpg. However, when you consider that D2 is about 5-10%(my area is at 8% higher right now) higher price than reg. gas it is pretty much a wash in performance and cost.
However, nobody drives anything close to like any of these people did on a normal basis so, while it's it's interesting, it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot.
The original EPA sticker gave the figures as 21 City, 25 Combined, and 30 Highway. The new formula gives the results as 19 City, 22 Combined, 28 Highway.
I keep obsessive compulsive track of my mileage: over 75,000 miles, I've averaged 22.94, so I'm right on the new combined average. Highway trips, ranging anywhere from 200 to 425 miles, usually exceed 30 mpg. My record is 34.9 mpg across northern Ohio. This is all without any hypermiling techniques, and I'm usually 5 over the posted speed limit, and with the a/c running. So I see the EPA results for Highway as underestimated. City driving all depends on time of day, and traffic. Off-peak (non rush hour) is around 20. But stop and go in heavy traffic really kills the mileage with the turbo - I can easily dip to 17 mpg.
Hypermilers show the economy potential for the TDI, but I think the way the TDI forums throw 50 mpg around is misleading and raises expectations of buyers unreasonably. The best thing about my JSW is that it get near or better than 40 mpg while giving sports car performance and pretty close to luxury sedan comfort.
My wife and I are most ofen conservative drivers and our new (4000 Miles) '10 JSW 6M delivers 30 to 32 MPG in city driving and 43 to 47 MPG on the Interstate at 70 MPH. We are very pleased at the economy, appearance and sportiness of the car.
Did my post sound like I was trying to say the Sonata gets that kind of MPG on average or something? I think it was pretty clear that I was not. I was just responding to the post about the couple that takes a TDI across country and got about double the EPA avg. 99% of people don't drive like that either. I was just trying to point out that by using all those tricks there are other cars out there capable of hitting some big mpg numbers besides the TDI if driven really, really conservatively.
And yes, the TDI would probably still beat any car out there on an average mpg basis if driven correctly but just not by as much as some people would like to think.
First, you need to understand that all modern fuel-injected engines actually CUT OFF the injection of fuel anytime the engine is in overrun.
Knowing this...If you were to go down a long hill (several miles)
1) Allowing the engine to idle (coasting)...then the engine would be consuming fuel keeping itself idling
2) Same hill, leave engine in high gear - foot off throttle, The engine-computer will cut all fuel-injection thus consuming NO FUEL AT ALL!
Having an understanding of how the fuel-injection works helps alot. Hence, I keep my engine in gear AS LONG AS POSSIBLE as I approach a stop... pressing the clutch at the very last moment. This consumes the least amount of fuel.
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Also, you seem to use the term "hypermilers" in a derogatory way. Instead, I feel the techniques should be taught in driving schools. Many of the techniques which increase MPG also add SAFETY... Like always looking forward to anticipate a stop and get off the throttle early.
I keep 40 PSI in my tires and short-shift as much as possible, think-thru my route to minimize road-time. (in your nomenclature - "Pick my routes")
I do not consider this "hyper mile" driving. Instead, I have trained myself to drive as efficently as possible. It is second-nature to me (and my wife...since she drives the TDI more than I do so I cannot take credit for the high MPG)
I don't regard "hypermilers" as a derogatory term, but rather as an experimental exercise that isn't very practical in the real world. I often play with this myself just to "see how much I can get".
Sounds like you are referring to common sense driving, which I'm totally in agreement with.
I don't regard "hypermilers" as a derogatory term, but rather as an experimental exercise that isn't very practical in the real world. I often play with this myself just to "see how much I can get".
Sounds like you are referring to common sense driving, which I'm totally in agreement with.
TDI Sportswagon is great. Tight parking space no problem even when the guy behind
you left six inches to spare. MPG 50 easily 3/4 of a tank from Newport Beach CA to
Phoenix AZ. AC cold and forceful back and front seats.
When we shopped for our new car, I carefully studied cargo capacity and exterior dimensions because we too dislike large vehicles. I was amazed at the number of SUVs and crossovers that are significantly larger in exterior dimension than the Jetta Sportwagen, yet offered significantly less cargo space behind the rear seat! In my analysis, it seemed that only Subaru and Volkswagen knew how to design an efficient interior and not bloat the exterior.
All I said was that you can coast faster downhill in neutral than you can coast in gear with no gas applied----this is undoubtedly true, but I'm not RECOMMENDING it for gosh sakes! :shades:
If you're like me, you don't have time to play hypermiler games. I need to get where I'm going, to drive "normally" like I always do, and hopefully, to get the best possible MPG while doing it.
With a diesel engine, it is very easy to have the engine in 'overrun' while going down a long hill. This is one of the many reasons that a diesel engine is inherently efficent.
Contrary to what some folks will tell you, it is NOT the compression-ratio of an engine which causes decelleration forces. Technically, the force it takes to compress during piston upstroke is nearly identical to the force returned when the piston is on the downstroke. This cancells out the compression-ratio altogether. (Newtons laws in action)
Instead, It is mostly the closed throttle-plate causing engine to pull a very high vacuum against it. (Gasoline engine has this inherent defect which reduces MPG)
coasting in neutral does reduce mpg in addition to being a civil violation of the "vehicle code" in most states.
coasting in gear is the optimal approach as it uses zero fuel and because frictional losses in the engine are not large enough.
generally, if coasting out of gear were an optimal mpg approach then a couple of thermodynamic laws would be violated. So it's not going to be happening in this universe, except for oddball theoretical cases. Those cases would be the ones where we theorize enormous internal frictional losses within of an engine running downhill using zero fuel.
The driver-touches-go-pedal would be a different subject, a case where a nonzero amount of fuel is used going down the hill.
The subject at hand was coasting down the hill !
The definition of coasting is "foot off gas", unless we are making up new words/definitions, which can be fun too. Thusly I hereby refudiate your shifting the subject from the no-touchy-gas-pedal case to the feather-gas-pedal case.
I may be cross-shopping to replace my 2006 Jetta TDI like so::
- maxxed 2011 or 2012 VW TDI wagon/golf, no sunroof.
- 2011 or 2012 2WD regular cab GM duramax pickup
- 2010 leftover HHR-SS, or 2011/2012 HHR LT
The pickup costs plenty more but provides so much more functionality, power, torque, and mpg up to 30 mpg @ steady-state 55 mph, and ~25 mpg in normal highway driving. It requires urea-additive, but that's how the increased power/torque/mpg was achieved, so I'm willing to accept that!
Thanks.
Or could be infinitely longer, depending on the traffic/cold conditions ! ! !
(Slow/stop & go in super cold weather: engine will never warm up.)
if you want guaranteed/quickest/hottest possible heat, you'll want an inefficient, slow, small gasoline engine in your car...
Heck, Even after engine warms up... if I use heater with full-blast fan... the engine will COOL BACK DOWN if I am not on interstate driving. Make no mistake... you will LOSE HEAT in the cabin if you are in stop-n-go traffic as the engine cools off.
Efficent engine = very litte wasted heat from engine to warm passengers
That's the bottom line exactly and I think it's fascinating. We live in the southeast and aren't sure if our new '10 JSW TDI has the heater. We think that it might have the heater because we parked one night in an underground garage where it was somewhat cool and when we turned on the heat we thought we felt instant somewhat warm air. We'll know for sure come November ...
You are experiencing the superior engineering in the VW/Audi diesel engines. If any other auto maker builds a better 4 cylinder engine, I would like to drive it myself to make up my mind. Next to no oil is a big plus over 10,000 miles for sure. For me the drivability of the engine is the top feature. I doubt that any gas 4 cylinder can cruise at 70 MPH up hill and down without shifting to a lower gear racing the engine to get enough torque to pull the long hills.
My TDI has over 120,000 miles and consumes NO MEASUREABLE AMOUNT of engine-oil between 10K mile OCI. (Oil Change Interval)
You will find that low oil-consumption is partually due to the "special" oul which TDIs must have in them. That oil is a highly-engineered lubricant..... which has been proven to be able to go significantly more than 10K mile OCI.
I now drive an '06 Volvo S60 with the 185bhp D5 diesel engine and it doesn't use any engine oil between 18k mile services/oil changes. Selling retail lubes is not a good game to get into as forecourt sales, (at least here in Europe), have cratered.
Long may it continue and long may you enjoy your TDi.
Doc MItchell