Hybrid Tips Optimizing mileage

heyjewel · October 2005

Well, I read all your tips and I have my doubts you can get 27mpg in a GC doing these things, but whatever. I will say that if you do some of these things during drive-time, you may cuase some other drivers to be a bit peeved shall I say? And I think I'll have to pass on the driving school. Most of your tips are pretty impractical for "normal" commuters, especially here in California. Example: I drive over an 1800 foot Mt pass from sealevel to/from work every day. One of your tips suggests finding a way around hills. Yeah, I can choose another route and go around the mountain and probably get better mpg figures, but it'll add about 300 miles to my round trip commute! Probably not resulting in a net savings. Also, you are choosing to sacrifice time to get greater gas mileage. Most Californians are so time-pressured now that this would be laughed at heartily. Leaving a buffer of 1000 feet between you and the car in front? That's what about 50 car lengths? HAHAHAHA Maybe at 3AM in the desert. Any other time of day, that buffer would fill so quickly with other cars (whose drivers would probably be pointing a finger in your direction as they go around you) your head would spin. Gradually slowing down when going up a hill ... well what about the guy behind you? I could go on but what's the sense? Tell u one thing - I'm glad I don't commute the same roads as you :>)

aaron_t · October 2005

Interesting twist. Nobody said all of those techniques are appropriate for rush hour traffic. If nobody is impeding traffic or bothering anyone else why do you have a problem if someone saves fuel dollars?

I have no problem with people practising every one of those techniques as long as they minimize other drivers' penalties. That's why I qualified with during rush hour because that's a greater chance of impeding other driver's flow. That's also where that majority of drivers put the majority of miles on their vehicles. We'd all love to save money. Everyone has different ways to do so and by how much is valuable to them.

misterme · October 2005

Hello heyjewel:
In case you missed it, I suggested going around hills, not mountains and if it doesn't add significant miles

Yes, most of those tips are applied in every drive but not all tips are used all the time. Some tips aren't even posted here for people's exaggerations and mis-context.

I've been doing this since Jan'04 and never once had an angry driver.
I'm just another car driving along in traffic.
Have you made any drivers angry in the last two years?

Have you viewed my video linked by larsb? Mine isn't the only one there and no angry drivers. Just savings.

heyjewel · October 2005

"I've been doing this since Jan'04 and never once had an angry driver.
I'm just another car driving along in traffic.
Have you made any drivers angry in the last two years?

Have you viewed my video linked by larsb? Mine isn't the only one there and no angry drivers. Just savings."

I haven't viewed the video. I really shouldn't even be spending time on these msgs.

Have I made drivers angry? Sure. Sometimes I will leave a few car lengths between me and the guy in front. And/or do less than 20 mph OVER the speed limit. In either of those cases, I regularly get flipped off.

I'm not calling you a liar here, BUT - if you travel in traffic and go by some of your tips, you'd have to be surrounded by cars ALL filled with nuns to NOT get the bird aimed in your direction. You can't tell me that you slow down going uphill to a minimum speed or accelerate REAL SLOW from a red light if you're in traffic and not upset other drivers. Maybe your windows are too deeply tinted for you to see how P'd-off they are?

misterme · October 2005

heyjewel, you posted:

"You can't tell me that you slow down going uphill to a minimum speed or accelerate REAL SLOW from a red light if you're in traffic and not upset other drivers"

After you mentioned:

"I haven't viewed the video"

Self explanetary.
There's even a segment in that video where I came from a red light and point out I'm accelerating too hard and missed a good MPG opportunity, as you can see in the rearview mirror the vehicle 1/4 mile behind is still stuck at the light.
If you believe it's a slow moving vehicle making people angry and clogging up traffic you're mistaken....and another reason I made that video.

snakeweasel · October 2005

If you believe it's a slow moving vehicle making people angry and clogging up traffic you're mistaken

So you're the one:

pf_flyer, "Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)" #5890, 7 Aug 2005 6:37 pm

If you believe slow moving vehicles don't anger people please contact me I have a wonderful deal for you, put please no checks cash only and in small unmarked bills.

snakeweasel · October 2005

What, shut off the engine going downhill?

I do believe thats illegal.

xcel · October 2005

Hi Snakeweasel:

I do believe thats illegal.

Ever Speed? I know thats illegal!

HeyJewel, if you are not interested in Hybrid Tips - Optimizing mileage (see title of the forum), why are you interested? All that non-sense about Ripleys and in California California is one of the best places for a hypermiler to live because of the excellent temps throughout much of the year throughout much of your state. What do you think you are averaging on your daily commute? Why not get back to us after doing the math. Click a stop watch on from the time you turn the ignition key to start the car at work and click it off when you arrive back in your drive at home. Take the miles driven and divide. Let us know your real average speed so we can tell if you are actually averaging the speed limit or sitting in a parking lot like those of us who commute through much of Chicago, Atlanta, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maryland, DC, etc. Maybe you are lucky enough to have the Interstate start at your drive and end at your works drive. 99.999% of the rest of the world is not so lucky

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

snakeweasel · October 2005

Ever Speed? I know thats illegal!

Nice way to avoid the issue.

Anyways I am in one of those parking lots you mentioned, little more than 1/2 hour to drive 10 miles.

larsb · October 2005

quote weasel-"If you believe slow moving vehicles don't anger people please contact me I have a wonderful deal for you, put please no checks cash only and in small unmarked bills."-end quote

Sure, people get angry, but is that a VALID LOGICAL REASONABLE thing to get angry about? Because you had to slow down from 52 to 40 in a 45 zone? Is that REALLY something to get angry about? Absolutely NOT.

People DO get angry, but it's just STUPID. If someone wants to get angry enough to road rage me and assault me, then there are laws in place for that, as well as anger management classes.

Anyone who is CHILDISH enough to get mad because they had to slow down a little bit is an idiot who needs professional help. People drive WAY TOO FAST for no good reason anyway. It's wasteful and costly and needs to be stopped.

xcel · October 2005

Hi SnakeWeasel:

Anyways I am in one of those parking lots you mentioned, little more than 1/2 hour to drive 10 miles.

And if you can imagine a Ford Escape HEV, Prius I or II, Insight, HCH-I or II receiving between 65 and 110 mpg through that nightmare you and I call a commute, why would anyone bash hybrids? I know most have never seen south of 100 mpg in a hybrid let alone whatever they are currently driving but it is quite doable! I am curious as to the FE you receive in that daily grind no matter what you are currently driving but I can guess it is absolutely abysmal due to that 20 mph average speed? In a hybrid, it wouldnt be if a nightmare at all if you drive them for all there worth

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

snakeweasel · October 2005

And if you can imagine a Ford Escape HEV, Prius I or II, Insight, HCH-I or II receiving between 65 and 110 mpg through that nightmare you and I call a commute, why would anyone bash hybrids?

First off I am not bashing hybrids just stating some economical facts. If I take that hybrid getting 110 MPG on my daily commute it would take me over 15 years to recover the extra cost that a base Prius has over my car (approximatly $6K). If I use the EPA Estimate of 51 MPH then it gets to be over 20 years. If I use what most people get then its almost 23 years. Add in the time value of money and it goes up even more. Now I will admit that I drive more than my daily commute so lets cut those numbers in half. Sorry I am not going to buy a car that takes over 10 years to recover the extra cost. Plus there are other issues that I have at this point. Maybe in the future when the "premium" on the cars comes down and that the systems have been more proven in the long run then I might consider it. But as of now I refuse to spend $140 a month just to save $50 a month.

As for those who claim that they get 80+ MPG on their hybrid I do seriously doubt that. Most people I have talked to get less than the EPA estimate.

falconone · October 2005

I can get 50mpg easily. Probably better than what you're currently driving.

snakeweasel · October 2005

yes better than what I am getting, but remember you paid far more than I did. The question is how long will it be before I recoup that extra cost? You see you are most likely saving a little less than 5 cents per mile, at that rate it will take you 20,000 miles to recover $1,000 or extra cost.

falconone · October 2005

I didn't buy the car for an investment and neither did you. You bought cheap basic transportation (nothing wrong with that). I've owned Mercedes, Audi, Lexus you name it. I don't buy cars to make money. I buy them to ENJOY them. I can assure you that I will enjoy my Prius. I would NOT enjoy a Hyundai. I rented one in Fort Myers last January. YAWN........................

xcel · October 2005

Hi Snakeweasel:

The average driver is receiving ~ 19 mpg and drives ~ 15,000 miles per year. A little more then 10% below the EPA and that is being kind! The Average hybrid driver is posting ~ EPA in the HCH, 5% under in the Escape, 10% under in the Insight, and maybe 15% under in the Prius II. We are not speaking of used automobiles vs. a hybrid but a brand new whatever vs. a brand new Prius, HCH, Insight, etc. How many SUV wonders do you see on the road daily as an example?

Gasoline costs ~ $2.70 around the country as of late. Will it go much lower or much higher over the next 5 years is anyones guess. I subscribe to the theory of PO so it will not go much below $2.25 ever again?

19.0 mpg over 15,000 per year = 789.47 gallons consumed annually in the average automobile or $2132.00 per year at $2.70 per gallon.

29.0 mpg over 15,000 per year = 517.24 gallons consumed annually in the FWD Escape HEV or $1397.00 per year at $2.70 per gallon.

45.0 mpg over 15,000 per year = 333.33 gallons consumed annually in the HCH-I or $900.00 per year at $2.70 per gallon.

47.0 mpg over 15,000 per year = 319.15 gallons consumed annually in the Prius II or $862.00 per year at $2.70 per gallon.

The Prius II or HCH-I vs. the average automobile is costing $100 less per month in gasoline. How long will it take for the average driver driving a Prius or HCH to recoup their initial and ongoing expenses vs. the average non-hybrid driver who has paid more for their automobile in the first place AND is paying ~ $100.00 more per month in gasoline? The answer is that the average non-hybrid driver is under water before they even drive off the lot by a huge margin.

Again, the kicker is that the average automobile in the US costs $28,050 today. What hybrid costs more then $28,000 other then a HiHy, RXh, and/or NAVI equipped AH nowadays?

If you are comparing a used car, you have some of us there. I hope you are driving a used Toyota Echo (even if it is an ugly POS) 3,000 miles or less per year because that is the cheapest automobile to own new or used imho

2005 Toyota Echo = $0.35/mile
2005 HCH = $0.40/mile
2005 Toyota Prius II = $0.46/mile

I am making some estimates as to the average hybrid drivers FE because there just isnt enough data to really nail it down.

As for those who claim that they get 80+ MPG on their hybrid I do seriously doubt that. Most people I have talked to get less than the EPA estimate.

Sorry, some do not have to claim it, they do it. A few Google searches on the term hypermiler will lead you to all you need to know in regards to how wrong you are in many cases

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

snakeweasel · October 2005

The average driver is receiving ~ 19 mpg and drives ~ 15,000 miles per year.

Lets not use the average car in this case. The thing is to compare the hybrid to the alternative. That being the case it seems unfair to compare the average for a hybrid (that is mostly smaller cars) to what the average driver gets (which includes bigger far less fuel efficient vehicles). So if you wish to make the comparison do it against vehicles that are similar or close to similar to what you get to hybrids. In that case the average MPG goes up to around the mid 20's. That being said the average hybrid user is saving less than $90 a month over what a driver over a reasonable alternative.

Again, the kicker is that the average automobile in the US costs $28,050 today.

Again it is rather deceptive to use the average price of a car in the US since a $100,000 Benz is hardly an alternative for a hybrid vehicle. Again looking at vehicles that are comparable to a hybrid you find that you can get reliable new cars for way less than a hybrid. a typical saving with a comparable vehicle over a hybrid is around $3-4,000. This relates to more than $90 a month more in car payments.

The answer is that the average non-hybrid driver is under water before they even drive off the lot by a huge margin.

Every time I run the figure I find that it is the exact opposite, that in most cases the non-hybrid owner is on the upside for at least the first few years, in many cases for 5 or more.

Please compare apples to apples.

Sorry, some do not have to claim it, they do it. A few Google searches on the term hypermiler will lead you to all you need to know in regards to how wrong you are in many cases

Sorry if you do a few Google searches you will find that Elvis is alive, the world is flat, we never went to the moon, remote controlled planes were crashed into the world trade center, the masons control the world and a whole lot of other nonsense. If you want wait a few minutes and you can find a website that has a Hummer owner claiming 2,000 MPG, thats how long it would take for me to create the website and get it on the web. It won't be true but it will be there.

Just because someone posts something on the internet doesn't mean its true, you should know that. Give me a more non-biased more reliable source, I don't believe something just because someone says it is so.

quasar4 · October 2005

--Where did you pull that $6k figure from? What model of car do you own and what gas mileage does it get? If it's anything other than a non-hybrid version of the Prius, then you're comparing apples to oranges. Whatever your car is, I'm sure I can find a vehicle that costs thousands less and make the same argument that your current car makes no economic sense to buy. Go to Honda's website and compare a Civic hyrid to a comparable non-hybrid Civic EX sedan --the difference is about 3 grand.

--I also noticed that you did not mention anything about the tax credit available to hybrid buyers in '06. Two-thousand bucks for the Prius knocks your alledged $6k difference down to $4k.

--Also, what price did you allot for a gallon of gas10 years from now when you proclaimed that optimistically it would take 10 yrs to recover the extra cost? Anyone think that the price of oil will remain frozen at its current price for 10 yrs?? If so, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you.

--Even Edmunds did an analysis on the economics of owning a hybrid back in June and stated that, in a worse case senario, the Prius would cost $5283 more over the course of 5 yrs. than a comparable Toyota Corolla. This analysis did not include the $2000 tax credit and assumed gas would cost $2.28/gal with a 3% increase/yr....ahhhh, the good ol' days. By that standard, it should be close to the year 2015 where I live because gas is running @ $2.85/gal (down from well over 3 bucks/gal during the Summer).

--I've noticed that when people discuss hybrid economics, they very rarely discuss the intangibles. With Global Warming, pollution, environmental destruction, oil-based politics and wars, certainly costing billions if not trillions of dollars, what is the true cost comparison between fuel efficient and inefficient vehicles? That gallon of gas we all pump into our tanks costs us a lot more than the price listed on the tap.

--Last, but not least, what does any of this have to do with the "Hybrid Tips: Optimizing Mileage" topic?? :surprise: In the spirit of the topic, here's a tip...

--When stopping at a light on a hill, if you have more hill ahead of you to ascend, coast as far up to the intersection as possible before stopping. If you are descending, leave a car length between you and the crossing (or better yet, get behind a longer line of cars so that you're stopped higher up the hill) so that your car gets a little extra umpf from gravity when the light turns green. If you time your roll with the light, you can easily get up past 10mph without the engine turning on and without delaying anyone behind you (not to mention getting a jump on the guy in the lane next to you).

falconone · October 2005

Excellent post. Comparing a Hyundai (disposable car) to a Prius makes no sense, but some people just don't get it.

snakeweasel · October 2005

Where did you pull that $6k figure from? What model of car do you own and what gas mileage does it get?

The figure is the difference between the base price of the Prius and the base price of the car that replaced my car which is a Hyundai elantra hatchback. Currently I am getting 33 highway 25 City on a 130k mile car.

If it's anything other than a non-hybrid version of the Prius, then you're comparing apples to oranges.

Then it would be practically impossible to compare anything with anything else. The facts are that the two cars are approximatly the same size, with the elantra having far more cargo space. Despite what falcone in his bias says they are comparable.

I also noticed that you did not mention anything about the tax credit available to hybrid buyers in '06

That is because as of the last time I checked with the IRS they haven't made a decision on the tax implications on the tax credit in the new energy bill. Plus the fact that many non-hybrid economy cars can be bought at below sticker while most hybrids go for at least sticker that eliminates most of the tax credit that hybrids enjoy.

Also, what price did you allot for a gallon of gas10 years from now when you proclaimed that optimistically it would take 10 yrs to recover the extra cost?

Neither you, I, or anyone else save God knows the answer to that question. That being said I have to go by what we all know, the price of gas would practically have to double for this to be more economically viable in the short to medium run. Secondly in 5 years (or less) I will be in the market for a new car and all the things people are arguing about will change and it might be more economical to go hybrid (gas may have doubled, the premiums on hybrids are lower) or both types of cars might be obsolete (Hydrogen cars becoming a reality?).

I've noticed that when people discuss hybrid economics, they very rarely discuss the intangibles. With Global Warming, pollution, environmental destruction, oil-based politics and wars, certainly costing billions if not trillions of dollars,

Ok when you can actually prove that global warming exists maybe we will discuss this. Pollution cars are responsible for less than 5% of the pollution in major areas, now this figure is 5 - 10 years old and all cars are cleaner. so going hybrid would have a minimal effect on pollution. There are also many unanswered questions on the actual effects on the environment that hybrids have. Looking into that it is still undecided that there would be much of an ecological benefit from hybrids. Now for oil based politics its always going to be there. Oil is always going to be there even if no cars used any gas. Oil is used in many, many consumer products. You will never get rid of that until the oil is gone.

falconone · October 2005

Elantra as I mentioned is a disposable car but is great for people that can't afford some of the pricing on new cars today. I am very concerned with the POOR side impact rating for them. I hope the buyers know this.

gagrice · October 2005

I am very concerned with the POOR side impact rating for them

Moved to 2004 Prius

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/index2.cfm?myYear=2005&myMake=Toyota&myModel=Pr- ius

looking4prius · October 2005

Ok when you can actually prove that global warming exists maybe we will discuss this. Pollution cars are responsible for less than 5% of the pollution in major areas, now this figure is 5 - 10 years old and all cars are cleaner. so going hybrid would have a minimal effect on pollution. There are also many unanswered questions on the actual effects on the environment that hybrids have. Looking into that it is still undecided that there would be much of an ecological benefit from hybrids. Now for oil based politics its always going to be there. Oil is always going to be there even if no cars used any gas. Oil is used in many, many consumer products. You will never get rid of that until the oil is gone.

If I may interrupt: the 5% figure regarding the contribution of cars to the atmosphere is something that changes locally. There are areas in the States where cars contribute far less (as there is more industry), and there are places where cars contribute far more (as where industry has cleaned up its act). In any case, global warming or no, it is usually a good idea to drive clean & green.

quasar4 · October 2005

Then it would be practically impossible to compare anything with anything else. The facts are that the two cars are approximatly the same size, with the elantra having far more cargo space.

--Sure, you can compare anything you want with anything else (although if the best you got is that the two cars are approximately the same size, that's not much to go on), but with so many variables between vehicles, any conclusions will be murky and muddled. In fact, if you want meaningful results, you have to eliminate as many variables as possible. I think the boys down at the lab refer to it as employing scientific controls (i.e., all factors being equal but the one you're interested in studying). Why not compare vehicles that are substantially similar in most areas except for the power plant (e.g., HCH vs a standard Civic)? If Toyota were to create a new model (let's call it the Pri-ICE or Price) by stripping the Prius of its hybrid drive system and plopping a conventional Toyota ICE in, which car do you honestly think people would be willing to pay more for? A base model Hyundai Elantra? Or the base model Toyota Price? Oh, just out of curiousity, what current Toyota ICE model do you consider to be most comparable to an Elantra?

That is because as of the last time I checked with the IRS they haven't made a decision on the tax implications...

--The tax credit is a sure thing. If you want to quibble about whether Prius buyers will get 2 grand or 3 grand, knock yourself out. Whatever the amount, it will dramatically whittle away your argument that hybrids don't make economic sense to buy. Let's revisit this when January rolls around.

Neither you, I, or anyone else save God knows the answer to that question.

--Well if you believe that, then how can you sit there and proclaim like it's gospel truth that it will take over 10 years to recover the cost??! :confuse: Unless God whispered the price in your ear, you must have made some assumption as to what gas prices would be in years to come to arrive at that break-even point. Let the room know what these assumptions were so that we can comment on the validity of your comparison. Plus, what do you mean by "...short to medium run..."? If you're looking to recoup all your out of pocket expenses in the first year or two, then gee, you're probably right --a hybrid isn't for you.

Ok when you can actually prove that global warming exists maybe we will discuss this.

--Oh boy, this reminds me of a cartoon I saw reprinted in TIME magazine. On one side of a split pane, there was a lone Post-it note with the phrase "Proof of WMD" scribbled on it, and the caption "Amount of evidence considered sufficient to go to war" written below. On the other half of the pane was a veritable mountain of papers labeled "Proof of Global Warming," and the caption "Amount of evidence considered insufficient to prove Global Warming." Global warming exits and we're contributing to it. Even Bush was forced to finally admit this in the face of overwhelming evidence.
BBC News: Bush admits Global Warming exists; still undecided on whether Earth is round

quasar4 · October 2005

--I might also add that by concentrating only on what comes out the tailpipe, he is ignoring all other types of oil-based pollution...pollution caused by oil refineries, tanker oil spills, ground water contamination from storage leaks and pipelines, destruction of pristine lands for oil drilling and pipe laying, etc., etc.

--Plus somebody should tell California that even if they cut auto pollution by a whopping 50%, they're only going to cut overall pollution at best by 2.5%. They seem to be going through a lot of trouble for just a couple of percent.....hmmmm, I wonder if they know something we don't.

stevedebi · October 2005

I was thinking this morning that some of the techniques used to achieve high MPG might not work so well if everyone on the road was attempting to use them.

One technique used is to try and time your trip so that you hit green lights, not red lights. But if everyone tried to do this, not everyone could time the lights correctly. A lot of the timing I use is actually made possible by the fact that everyone else is rushing to that next red light, while I adjust my speed up or down to hit that light when it is green.

A second technique is to leave more space between vehicles so that you don't have to use the brakes or accelerator unnecessarily. But slower acceleration and leaving more space between vehicles might expand the "accordian" effect to the point that nobody would get anywhere at all due to everyone leaving more space between cars.

Or what if everyone one re-routed their path to work - along the same routes? Some routes might get less crowded, but in general all paths would be more crowded - including that one which you use to avoid lights & save time, etc.

Anybody else think of the repercussions of everyone on the road attempting to follow the gas-saving rules?

larsb · October 2005

Firstly, if we are talking "reality" here, there is no possible scenario in which "everyone on the road will attempt to use" hypermiler techniques.

Second, traffic flow would not be affected negatively either way. Drivers will drive whatever speed they need or want to in order to get where they are going at the rate of speed they personally think is necessary. That by default will mean some people hypermiling, some people cruising casually, some people in a little bit of a rush, and some people driving like speed demons, which is the current situation in most places now.

zodiac2004 · October 2005

Anybody else think of the repercussions of everyone on the road attempting to follow the gas-saving rules?

If everybody on the road is the same as everybody else, that extrapolates to every human on the planet being identical. If that were to happen, the gene pool would be wiped out in a matter of a few years.

stevedebi · October 2005

" If everybody on the road is the same as everybody else, that extrapolates to every human on the planet being identical. If that were to happen, the gene pool would be wiped out in a matter of a few years."

No, just that everyone is trying the same tricks to increase mileage.

stevedebi · October 2005

So far no one has really answered to my satisfaction. The point is that as more people use the techniques, the less effective the techniques become. There is a "drop off" point somewhere in the middle, where the techniques start working less and less.

stevewa · October 2005

There's one technique that won't "drop off" and that's driving slower.

beantown · October 2005

I'm seeing a lot of calculations here based off of the price of gas being at least $2.70 per gallon or more. I think it's time to lower that figure significantly and recalculate, now that the crisis is over and gas is back in the $2.30 range.

quasar4 · October 2005

Or what if everyone one re-routed their path to work - along the same routes? Some routes might get less crowded, but in general all paths would be more crowded - including that one which you use to avoid lights & save time, etc.

--This will never happen with human nature being what it is. If we all re-routed our commutes along the same routes, then the old routes that everybody used to travel on will be empty. Frustrated people now jammed on the re-routed paths would soon rediscover the joys of flying down wide stretches of abandoned asphalt and switch back. Eventually enough people would switch back until an equilibrium is reached. Like water and electricity, people usually travel the path of least resistance. Also, while you as an individual might suffer in terms of gas mileage and/or time from divulging to the public your secret, speedy, fuel efficient route, commuters that switch over to the newly discovered route would collectively save more gas and/or time for the country as a whole. In the words of Spock, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

falconone · October 2005

Avg us price is $2.68. That's what they base it on. Looking forward to sub $2 gas again. If gas is 2 bucks a gallon, that means my monthly gas exp will be around $65 with the Prius. Gotta love it!!!

quasar4 · October 2005

--I had responses prepared for your first two questions, but due to technical difficulties, lost them while attempting to post....doh! I don't have time to elaborate right now, but the short answer to both was "no." We'd all be better off if everyone implemented those fuel saving measures.

misterme · October 2005

Hello Stevedebi:
Everyone isn't going to use those tips.
Just look around this board, almost everyone looks for reasons why not to use them!
Some are quite inventive with their reasons

You're right in that if everyone used all those techniques there would be problems.
If 50% used some of them instead of just mindlessly gassing it, then I'd bet the oil companies would be in crisis, not the nation.

Hello Beantown:
"I think it's time to lower that figure significantly and recalculate, now that the crisis is over and gas is back in the $2.30 range"
Re calculating is fine, but I think your opinion of crisis is debatable.

For example when I bought my car back in Jan '04 gas was about $1.25/G.
Yesterday it was about $2.55, still more than doubled in less than two years.

No crisis?
If the trend continues we could see $4-5/G in the next few years.
Judging from most everyone's current driving, which is drastically different from a few weeks ago most folks are content with the current price and also believe the crisis is over.

The cycle that has been going on for years continues- the people are content again so we'll see the price increase again soon.
No, I don't enjoy bringing the news and hate higher prices too.
Just an observation.

stevedebi · October 2005

I never said that everyone would use the techniques, just that as more people use them they are less effective.

However, isn't the whole point to encourage everyone to use techniques for higher mileage?

I'm still waiting for people to say why this hypothesis is wrong.

The response about the various route to work equalizing was close, but it still ignores the fact that every route would become more crowded - that is, the route you chose to get to work would not have more cars on it, resulting in a less efficient alternate route. Even if you switched back to the "main" route, wouldn't everyone be doing the same thing, looking for that "sweet" route that provides higher MPG?

misterme · October 2005

I beleive your hypothesis is correct. (But not realistic :shades: )

looking4prius · October 2005

So far no one has really answered to my satisfaction. The point is that as more people use the techniques, the less effective the techniques become. There is a "drop off" point somewhere in the middle, where the techniques start working less and less.

How is it that other people's driving habits would influence the techniques? As has already been posted, if we all drove slower we would stand a chance of getting better mileage. Matter of fact, if everybody used the techniques, whether they were driving a hybrid or not, it would not hurt the mileage of those of us that do drive hybrids and use the techniques.

quasar4 · October 2005

I never said that everyone would use the techniques, just that as more people use them they are less effective.

--Less effective for who? For you? Or for the group as a whole?

The response about the various route to work equalizing was close, but it still ignores the fact that every route would become more crowded...

--Why would every route become more crowded if you're simply redistributing traffic?? Taking a car off of one road and placing it on another means that the first road will have one less car (i.e., that road will be less crowded).

I'm still waiting for people to say why this hypothesis is wrong.

--Perhaps this will help...

--Think of a multi-lane freeway where each lane represents a "route." If one of the routes/lanes has little traffic on it while the other lanes are crowded, guess what...people will move out of the crowded lanes and into the faster lane. This will continue until there's no longer any point in switching routes because what was once the relatively empty route, will now be just as crowded as the other routes --equilibrium has been reached. Everyone will be moving at approximately the same speed, but thanks to the former fast lane sucking more cars off the slower lanes, cars in the original crowded lanes move slightly faster due to the reduced volume. Cars that migrated lanes will also be moving faster than they were while stuck in the slow lanes. Unfortunately, the only losers in this deal are those few cars that were traveling in the original fast lane for they are now slowed down by the added volume (unless of course the route you're in can easily handle the volume of traffic thrown to it, in which case nobody is forced to slow down).

--So to answer your original question, if everyone (or a large chunk of people) started selecting more efficient routes of travel --while you as an individual might suffer in terms of gas mileage and/or time from the increased volume-- commuters that switch over to the newly discovered route would collectively save more gas and/or time for the country as a whole.

rollerblade · October 2005

Welcome to Canada. Gas currently 88 cents a litre in Ontario.

On a recent trip, early morning, super highway, in my 2005 Prius, 140 miles, readout was 3.9 litres per 100 k., or 71 MPG Imperial. Converting to US gallon ...a reduction of 20% = 56.8 mpg. Anyone better this?

Gkadey@sympatico.ca

stevedebi · October 2005

"So to answer your original question, if everyone (or a large chunk of people) started selecting more efficient routes of travel --while you as an individual might suffer in terms of gas mileage and/or time from the increased volume-- commuters that switch over to the newly discovered route would collectively save more gas and/or time for the country as a whole."

But that was my original point - the techniques being used to achieve higher mileage by today's careful drivers would be less productive. Exactly how much less productive is an interesting question.

However, some of the techniques simply would not work - due to the "accordian" effect when many people are attempting to anticipate traffic patterns and leave more room.

As noted before, it is theoretical, not real-world, but interesting none the less.

stevedebi · October 2005

"--Less effective for who? For you? Or for the group as a whole? "

for the individual.

"--Why would every route become more crowded if you're simply redistributing traffic?? Taking a car off of one road and placing it on another means that the first road will have one less car (i.e., that road will be less crowded). "

Again, I am discussing if the techniques would be less effective than they are now, for the individual driver.

xcel · October 2005

Hi Rollerblade:

Anyone better this?

Yes.

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

xcel · October 2005

Hi Stevedebi:

You have to understand that not one individual technique works 100% of the time. If traffic speeds, traffic flow or congestion, or even weather changes, you have to change your driving technique in order to stay pegged against the edge of the envelope. It doesnt really matter if everybody drives one way or another. You take advantage of whatever is offered and your FE will take care of itself.

Good Luck

Wayne R. Gerdes

quasar4 · October 2005

But that was my original point - the techniques being used to achieve higher mileage by today's careful drivers would be less productive. Exactly how much less productive is an interesting question.

--It's doubtful in the real world that you would be negatively affected that much if at all. If there is a route that is so great for mileage, fuel economy and/or time, most people who could benefit from traveling on that road to get to work probably already have found it. Not everyone is suddenly going to crowd the new route because not everyone needs to go in that direction. Plus if your "sweet" road is so empty of vehicles to begin with, it can probably handle the few extra motorists that switch over to it.

quasar4 · October 2005

However, some of the techniques simply would not work - due to the "accordian" effect when many people are attempting to anticipate traffic patterns and leave more room.

--The "accordian" effect is not caused by leaving a space between vehicles, but rather by lag times in reacting to the car ahead of you and the lack of space. If for example you're in a train of tailgating cars, if the guy ahead of you lightly taps his brakes, you will have to tap your brakes even harder because by the time your brain notices his brake lights and sends a signal down to your foot to brake, your car will have moved ever closer to his bumper. The guy behind you will now be forced to hit his brakes even harder than you did because your car is slowing down even faster than the first guy's car is slowing down, thus giving him even less time to react...and so on and so on for cars behind him. The accordian is squeezed.

--In the opposite case where closely spaced cars are accelerating such as from a stoplight, even though the light has changed to green, cars in the back of the line are forced to sit there until the cars in front of them have reacted to the signal. The accordian is stretched. (You can see the role reaction time plays if you imagine a line of 5 individual cars stopped at the light in one lane, while a car-carrier truck hauling 5 cars back-to-back is stopped in the other lane. When the light turns green, all 5 cars on the truck instantly move since the "reaction time" of the cars on the truck to the movement of the truck is zero, while in the other lane, the last few cars must sit there and wait their turn.)

--The whole point of creating a buffer zone between you and the guy ahead of you is NOT to maintain the space at all costs, but rather to allow the space to shrink and grow as needed. By establishing a sufficient buffer, you essentially filter out the erratic stop-and-go behavior of the guy in front, creating a smoother ride for you and the guy behind you, which in turn helps the guy behind him and so on. This helps ALL of us because now when the first guy taps his brakes, you can simply allow your car to eat up the buffer until he speeds up again, allowing you to regain your space back, and the guy behind you nolonger has to jam his brakes. Everyone is happy.

--The end result: If everybody practiced this technique we'd be much better off.

quasar4 · October 2005

Again, I am discussing if the techniques would be less effective than they are now, for the individual driver.

--You still haven't defined "the individual driver." You are an individual, but so is the other guy who switches to your route. I trust you mean "for the individual who is currently driving on the 'sweet' route." The other individual will certainly benefit, while you may or may not be negatively affected. In the big picture you'll benefit as well if your fellow man practices conservation.

misterme · October 2005

This recent discussion is......well I can't find the word.

The chances of everyone driving for efficiency is as likely as Ford unveiling an anti-matter powered vehicle in a few hours.

looking4prius · March 2006

New Prius owner here, trying to get good mileage. I have heard of P & G, but I have also noted that if I 'glide' all the way to a stop (such as at a stoplight, very minimum brakes), I use some battery.

So, I have stopped coasting to a stop. Instead, I will keep my speed up (around 20mph) such that I can use some regenerative braking when I do stop.

Also, freeway traffic kills mileage. I have been in 7 mph stop and go traffic, and although it is cool to be able to roll along under electric power only , it is not long before the ICE kicks in to regenerate the battery. There have been a few 5 minute periods where the MPG was 0, although I knew that I had moved forward (albeit a few hundred feet). Since I am a computer programmer, I am starting to wonder precisely what logic is used to calculate and display the mileage. If the traffic is somewhat faster (over 15 mph), I can post up to three consecutive periods where mpg >= 100. Has anybody else noticed this??? :confuse:

Hybrid Tips Optimizing mileage

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles