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Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL
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Comments
Bob
The legacy may be a family car gone sporty (who cares? some of us have families with kids- who love riding in my car by the way) but the TSX is an Accord (epitome of family car?) rebadged and come to America- certainly not a sports car.
I've been slowly pushing the cornering limits of my GT and am getting a little scared because it's got power and it can corner and I don't know what it's limits are yet (I did get it to understeer a little going into a sharp turn too fast though). No, it's not an RX-8 (no power, but handles well) but fun to push into the corners and see what you can get away with. No way you can to the same things with a fwd TSX.
Once again, the TSX is a nice car, I'm thinking about getting one for my father, but if your definition of driveability is sporty, what's your definition of sporty? ;-)
tom
That way my wife will be able to speed past your dad off the line.
Please don't take offense. Just posting opinions. Like I said, I like the TSX, it's just not a comparable car any more than a GT would be comparable to the new M5.
I think I'll be quiet for a while.
tom
No need to "be quiet for a while" and conversely, no need for anyone to take these posts personally.
We're all entitled to our opinions, and all opinions are welcome here.
IOW, it's all good.
:-)
Car and Driver loves the TSX but it wouldn't surprise me to see the GT on their top ten list next year. I guess I am still up in the air on which one to buy. To really confuse things, what I really want is a BMW 330xi, but that would run 36-38.
36-38 for a 330xi? Where are you finding that? I mean, I guess it's technically possible, but it seems every new 330xi I've seen on lots has at least the premium package, automatic, and metallic paint, so they're stickering for more than 42.5k. Even with the current BMW incentives, you're still looking at ~40k.
I probably won't be in the market for a new car for another year or two, but two cars that I'm already looking at are the Legacy GT and 330i. But I've pretty much resigned to the fact that if I wan't the 330, I'll have get it used to stay in my budget. Oh well, by the time I'm ready to buy, the new 3-series will probably be out, and I have a feeling I won't like it as much anyway.
Mel
Krzys
First, in the market for a new sports sedan, my wife and I drove:
2004 BMW 325i auto
2004.5 Volvo S40 T5 auto
2004 Nissan Maxima 3.5 SE auto
2004 Acura TL manual
2004 Acura TSX manual
2005 M-B 230 Kompressor sedan auto
2004 Cadillac CTS auto
2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP auto
We were on our way to test the Lexus IS300 when we decided to stop in to the Subaru dealership to check out the Forester XT since I had seen what I believed to be nearly impossible performance numbers out of a station wagon/SUV.
We immediately saw and fell in love with the Legacy GT. What an improvement over the past Subaru's styling. Very sporty and mature. Not just for the young go fast crowd like the WRX, but will work with them as well.
Of all the aforementioned cars I drove the Subaru blew them away on performance. I was working to not redline the car in every gear! It wanted to RUN!
The only comparible car in my opinion was the TL because it just had a lot of muscle. However, the driving experience was totally different. In the TL, I felt disassociated with the road and the feel was not there. The Legacy was in touch with the road, communicating very well, while not making me feel every bump.
I would say for the money there is no better sports sedan on the road today.
PLUS, if you lease one (we did) you get free scheduled maintenance for 3/36. Only BMW matches that right now.
Also, I finally saw performance numbers at 5.8 sec 0-60. I feel this must be high. I will await the C&D impressions to be sure.
Craig
There was an article in our newspaper written about the G35x and it mentioned the only other awd car close to it in terms of performance/price/features was the Legacy GT but it had "less standard equipment".The writer forgot to compare the GT LTD with the G35x as he quoted the non LTD price.I almost felt like writing to the newspaper.
Am chomping at the bit to go over 4000 revs and really enjoy using steering wheel buttons to shift.Only complaint so far is the lack of storage e.g. no sunglass holder.I use the cigarette tray as the coin holder.
SAYONARA HONDA/ACURA....HELLO SUBARU...I GET IT NOW
Kevin: we had a 626 sedan for our last car, and even though the seats split-folded, it's just not half as versatile as the Legacy wagon that replaced it. At least in our experience.
Having the wider opening of a wagon/hatch plus the roof rack is nice, and honestly those would be hard to give up now.
Boxers have a characteristic growl that's an essential part of their character, but the turbo actually smoothes it out a little, so IMO it's very mellow sounding. Aftermarket exhausts could address that, but I'd keep it stock for the quiet ride.
3 series are nice but they nickel-and-dime you with options that Acura makes standard on their base models and Subaru includes in their Limited models. You just get much better value with the Japanese duo.
G35x only comes with an automatic, which is a real bummer.
-juice
That is very true indeed. Driving the TL is more visual than tactile, more so than any Honda model in my past experience. I guess there has to be a trade-off when you make a car more luxurious.
If you just compare awd vehicles the G35x makes you pay $2500 cdn more for premium package which then gets you sunroof,memory seat,dual zone climate contol which makes it 3k more than GT before taxes.
On the day I picked up my car I saw 3 TL's and 2 G35's whereas before I would only see 1 of each a week.
ps I got great service at Burrard Infiniti and North Shore Acura but indifferent/no service at Burrard Acura this time around.In fact all the dealers I dealt with were adequate or above average while Burrard Acura didn't seem to care at all about their attitude problem.
My '98 Forester lacks about 10-12 things that the current ones have. I bet things like memory seats will be added to the Legacy.
Nav is supposed to arrive next model year and on several models.
FWIW, the Outback has some things standard that the Acura MDX lacks or offers only as an option. Basically Subarus are equipped for snow duty, so things like heated seats, heated mirrors, and windshield wiper de-icers are standard even on the base Outback and Legacy GT.
Acuras are equipped for luxury duty, so they offer some extras but also lack the built-for-snow options that Subaru offers (AWD first and foremost).
-juice
As for Burrard Acura, I have actually been very pleased with their sales and service departments. I've been dealing with Katherine Grey and Stanley Fung in sales who have been super. I've also chatted with a couple of the other sales reps and they seemed pretty good too. So I'm kinda surprised you didn't get good service from them.
I think the base Legacy GT has those, but the GT Ltd has power seats (please correct me if I'm wrong).
-juice
I'm happy with the power seats on the GT.I actually don't mind if a car doesn't have sunroof/power seats as I consider these small bonuses.My wife was the one who steered me towards getting leather.
I think you get great service from Burrard because they know you well and I got a very bad salesperson that day.
Also, I had major problems with clutch shudder with my WRX. Hopefully they have that worked out with the Legacy GT.
If either of these things bother you, you might want to wait a year or so and see how things go on the Subaru message boards. If Subaru is serious about moving up-market, I would think that they would want to address these types of issues.
Jeff
In fact, this is why it's now relevant to compare a 2005 Legacy to an Acura. We have a 2002 Legacy and I would not put it in the same class as the new ones.
As with any version 1.0, it's safer to wait and see, but that's also true with new models from Honda/Acura.
-juice
Is the TL's alarm system better? Is the stereo on your TL a lot better ?(I didn't consider DVD important) I didn't get a chance to listen to it.
The GT's stereo is adequate but nothing to shout about.
Craig
Subaru had some clutch and even tranny claims for 2002 model WRXs, most from abuse.
They got smart and employed a force-limiting valve on the 2003s, and warranty claims plummeted to virtually zero. I think that pretty much proves it was mis-use, and not a tranny/clutch problem per se.
Besides, Acura has had far more tranny issues than Subaru, and that's well publicized.
Any how, the Legacy GT has a new dual mass flywheel and the clutch feels a lot smoother than any other Subie I've sampled. Whether it's reliable or not we won't know for a while because it's unlike any other Subaru.
-juice
As for the stereo system, I'm no audiophile but it certainly sounds better than the one in my old CL-S. To my ears, it's about the same as the Bose system in my old '95 Maxima, but I have yet to try DVD-A discs.
It would also be helpful if you broke your thoughts into paragraphs.
All caps and no paragraphs is very hard to read. Also all caps suggests shouting (even if that wasn't your intention).
Bob
It all ended up being a moot point since I sold my WRX 8 months ago and bought a TL.
Jeff
It sounds like your Subi dealer is mis-informed. It is not a retrofit, but an actual replacement of the clutch and clutch-flywheel (flywheel I believe). Thus not temporary in anyway.
Honda's run small front brakes. They can fix that whenever they choose. Why they haven't ?
The Legacy is a bit tight for two kids with car seats, plus all the junk like strollers. It won't leave much room for luggage/packages unless you opt for a roof top carrier. But it is still a great car. If you need more room then the Volvo V70 R is the way to go.
You can't beat the handling feel of the Legacy at this price point. I don't care what the mags say about the G35, when they have the comparo this year the Legacy will shine.
As to reliability. The Legacy is typically glued and screwed ;-) right from the factory, so the fit and finish is pretty good. I had a 99 Legacy GT that had a main seal leak fixed under warranty, a minor transmission problem at 65K. I got it fixed and have 92K on the car. Other than that no issues what so ever. No problems with leaks, rattles, brakes, elec. The leather and plastic are still smooth. Trust me the interior on these new ones are a world better.
Now that you don't have to worry about the Legacy power. You can concentrate on dialing in the handling to your exact demands. The nice thing about the Legacy is that it has great neutral handling that can even be improved. With a few cheap mods you can hang all day in the canyons with any BMW (M3's too). Rear Adj Anti-sway bar, steel braided brake lines, upgrade to STi 4 pots or Stoptech 4-6 pots, new Toyo Proxes or Bridgestone So-3 rubber. The brakes are good from the factory, there were complaintts of spongy feel on older models but that is fixed now. SBB lines always help.
If you need more power, wait 6 months and a tuner will have something knocking it up to 275-275; Cobb or Vishnu or Prodrive will get something very reliable out there within a year. Check out Teagues on the net.
Great car, not the cache it deserves but it's gonna get there, but fun nontheless.
The Accord is another story, but nothing a pair of Hawk pads can't fix.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article- _id=7785&page_number=1
"If you need more power, wait 6 months and a tuner will have something knocking it up to 275-275; Cobb or Vishnu or Prodrive will get something very reliable out there within a year. Check out Teagues on the net."
-Would not be surprised if it is up around 290/290. Heck, Cobb already has a kit to get the WRX over 260 hp to around 270, with just tubing and a reflash.
MB...oohhh,BMW...aaahhhh,Lexus..yesss,Audi..hmmm,VW..coolll,Toyot- a ..good choice,Subaru...huh??
Only a few people in the know start salivating when they find out.
Only when Subaru continues to make great cars will they get the recognition that Honda/Toyota gained in the 80's and 90's.
Considering the engine (EJ257 vs EJ20) is also different, the block design is different (Leg's is semi-closed deck design), and the transmission is entirely new (5EAT vs. 4), you could say the entire powertrain has almost nothing in common.
It's like comparing the TL to a Civic Si.
To load that stroller, just choose a wagon!
-juice
They should put bigger rotors on all the Honda's, they would be hard to beat.
Put 4Pot STi's, Brembos, AP's or Stoptech's on a Legacy GT and the TL won't be close.
Also to Saab's defense, they didn't test the Aero which has bigger and better brakes, and better shocks. Saab blew it by not making the Aero 9-3 250HP and upping the 9-5 Aero to 275HP.
But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Sorry, I know this is off topic. Just had to comment.
Come to think of it, the general shape of the Volvo and TSX are kinda similar.
tom
I also have to disagree about Volvos. IMO, as a group, the Volvo V70 line of wagons are amongst the best-looking.
I sampled the S40 sedan at an event Volvo hosted, and honestly there isn't a single thing the Legacy GT doesn't do better, not one.
I'd actually compare an S40 to a WRX in terms of size.
-juice
I don't think it has a remote chance in any category versus a Legacy GT though. The GT goes up squarely versus the V70 T5's and V70 R's
I know this has probably been asked before. I am probably going to trade my 03 Acura TL- type S in on an 05 Legacy GT ltd sedan sometime soon.
I had considered a new TL, but price and tranny problems have put me off.
How do Subaru's stack up quality and reliability wise? Is it as comfortable
as the Acura on long drives?
Will I regret making the switch? I am not a fast driver but like the idea of having AWD and knowing that I have the power on tap if needed. I have test driven the GT and it seems to ride as good as my Acura.
Thanks for any feedback!
The EJ257 engine has been around only since the WRX STi has, i.e. just over a year. It has been reliable so far.
To compare long-haul comfort you'd have to ask owners. I've only had these cars for short stretches.
You'll love the AWD when it rains, snows, or on gravel or sandy surfaces.
-juice
The V50 offers a lot of nice features I liked, but in the end it seemed a little small and pricey for what one got. I also attended Volvo's S40 promo event and was a little underwhelmed by it's performance (S40, T5, 6MT).
In two weeks, my dad who just recently purchased a TSX will be out here on vacation. It'll be interesting to hear his opinions on my Legacy GT Ltd wagon.
Ken
Craig