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Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids
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kirstie_h
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But staying on topic--I would not buy a used (5+ years) hybrid unless the batteries have been swapped out; I don't care how well a hybrid holds its resale value...I sure as heck wouldn't want to pay such a relatively "high" resale premium, just to find out that I'll have to shell out thousands of dollars to replace the batteries. Is this one reason why hybrids are such a good value for some of the folks who buy them new? Drive them until the batteries are close to their life-expectancy, then justify selling a hybrid with such a condition at such a high resale value to some unknowing person by touting all of the advantages that hybrids offer?
And for those folks who feel that solo hybrid drivers are entitled to carpool lanes? Clearly those folks don't know the meaning of "carpool"--the primary purpose of carpool lanes was/is to reduce traffic congestion. Solo hybrid drivers do nothing to reduce such congestion...
How many Prius owners can afford to maintain the Prius after they have bought it. One person on here purchased a used 2003 Prius only to find the NAV was defective. No warranty and Toyota quotes $3800 plus labor. That person was not able to afford a used Prius. The price for trying to be "green" was being ripped off.
kirstie_h
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There are many Priuses on Toyota delaer lots selling at MSRP. If you are willing to deal you can get $500-$1000 off. Most are base models or with the lower level option packages..
There is no latent backlog, so Toyota has wised up and are not able to charge $2,500 over invoice or wait 3-6 months.
The used Prius seem artifically high; close to new. Not sure why.
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HAH was selling for about $2000 less than MSRP about 6 months ago. However, with the recent gas price increase it seems like the price has gone back up closer to MSRP.
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Long term resale will be a whole another animal. The jury is out on battery replacement. If it is truly modular and replacement cost will low or will the whole battery need to be replaced.
The funny thing is with the 8-10 yr warrant and 100,000-150,000 miles most people have not had to address the warranty. A few who have have horror stories to tell; vendor saying the battery is still within normal range although it dischares very quickly , so theywon't replace. If battery problems start to happen and replacement cost is high, the the price of used Hybrids will drop like a rock.
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It may be only a few cases or maybe even one made up case, but there appear to be some CVT tranmission issues with the HCH. Also, there is a least one unintended acceleration issue; remember Audi back in the 80s; almost killed Audis completely.
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I still don't understand why someone supposedly interested in economy would pay $2-3,000 than MSRP for a Hybrid model when it is already $2-3,000 more than the gas engine (ICE) only equivalent. Passion seems to override economics because supposedly the hybrid has a few special/extra fetures thrown in.
I decided I couldn't give up a manual shift so I went with a 6-speed economy/performance car
MidCow
P.S. - I would give an A+ to the Hybrid marketing teams
Sometimes people ARE sheep!
I believe we do from time to time. Most of the articles written about the 33 Prius that had stalled on the highway, quoted Edmund's Forum as a major source.
Now I think Toyota's advertising and marketing is the best, but their local dealer public relations and customer service hit rock bottom.
One Soul Toyota Lost,
Mid Cow
I don't think you see the difference as midnightcowboy and the bulk of America see it. When someone is trying to help out the environment by being "green" (yourself excluded). It is a shame that the automaker touting themselves as environmentally in-tune, are GOUGING those that would try to help. I would put it up close to Starbucks charging people 5 bucks a bottle for water during the 9/11 terrorist attack in NYC. The Pontiac Solstice is a toy like the Sony Playstation. It is not a symbol of environmental integrity as the Prius is advertised to be. Some people paid double and more for the Playstation. They were not doing it to clean up the environment. That is the difference!
Not in our lifetime.
If you think that the dealers actions do not reflect for or against the manufacturers, You are not living in a real world. I have seen many, many references to being treated poorly by a dealership and that person writing the brand off their list of possible cars.
If you are correct it is a shame. Monopolies are never good for the consumer. Another good reason to not buy a Toyota.
My reading is that the credit goes on for one full quarter after the 60K, then 2 quarters at 50%, 2 quarters at 25%, thereafter no credit.
ooh, I think you're right. I hate lawyer speak. It reminds me of the days I had to read patents.
I'm confused, is this the Honda forum or the Toyota forum???? :confuse:
Is this a Honda forum??? You are one of the moderators, why don't you direct all of the Toyota people to their forum???
Mark
This particullar forum is hybrid generic, it is neither Honda nor Toyota. If you look at the forum title it will indicate what the vehicles should be and what topics should be covered: The name of this forum is "Paying more than MSRP for (new) Hybrids, Depreciation/Value of used Hybrids". It might of comeup in your list of either Toyota or Honda hybrids because is actually covers either or both plus other hybrids.
Cheer,
MidCow
If you want to get into REAL detail about a particular make or model, just use the search tools in the left sidebar to track down those discussions.
That being said, I went back and found the posts very interesting.
Thanks,
MarkDel
Sure, the hybrid tax credit is coming next year but I wouldn't be surprised if dealers start to mark up their hybrids again in anticipation of the onrush of potential hybrid buyers looking to take advantage of the tax credit--which BTW is better than the hybrid tax deduction for the majority of folks not subject to the AMT since the tax credit reduces taxes dollar for dollar, whereas the tax deduction reduces income before taxes.
"The BCAA study did come up with a comparison that showed the Honda Accord Hybrid would be a lot less expensive ($3,305) over five years, but only if the hybrid delivered the promised fuel economy levels"
Here is a link of the study story:
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2005/07/c8547.html
This article is interesting, but extremely irrelevant in figuring out costs of operating a hybrid to its non-hybrid equivalent. The Accord V6 is financed at 7.25% and the HAH at 4.25%.
Enough said.
Also the $2000 PST credit is for British Columbia only. And this chart doesn't feature resale, which as we all know is pretty strong for the non-hybrid and a big question-mark for the HAH, when it's racked up miles and out of warranty.
And that resale thing is OF COURSE an estimate; but I can show you data after data which shows that Priuses and HCHes are holding their own very well compared to their non-hybrid counterparts.
And remember: In the LONG history of the US car market, NO CAR at the top of a model line (EX versus LX versus DX for example) has EVER lost value more than a lower model line car in the same family. Since the HCH and the HAH are the "top of the line" for their model families, there is no reason to think they will buck that trend.
For example, using Edmunds.com TMV today:
2003 Honda Civic EX, auto tranny and front airbags, 50,000 miles:
Certified Used Car price: $15,813
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid, CVT tranny and front airbags, 50,000 miles:
Certified Used Car price: $18,807
That seems to indicate that the Hybrid is holding it's value quite well, and that is of course the OLDEST HCH available.
Methinks all these "resale value decline because of battery" people are not hitting a home run on that uneducated guess.....
2003 Honda Civic EX, auto tranny and front airbags, 50,000 miles:
Certified Used Car price: $15,813
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid, CVT tranny and front airbags, 50,000 miles:
Certified Used Car price: $18,807
That seems to indicate that the Hybrid is holding it's value quite well, and that is of course the OLDEST HCH available.
Methinks all these "resale value decline because of battery" people are not hitting a home run on that uneducated guess..... "
The HCH was about 3K more expensive than the EX in 2003, so that is about right.
Two years is not enough time to tell if the battery issue will be important. Any buyer would realize that the batteries are still OK at this point. Try it at 8 years...
2001 Toyota Prius (loaded) 70,000 miles:
Dealer retail: $18,095
2001 Toyota Corolla (loaded) 70,000 miles:
Dealer retail: $11,225
2001 Toyota Camry 4-cylinder XLE (loaded) 70,000 miles:
Dealer retail: $13,213
Seems like that even after 5 years the Prius is holding it's value better than comparable gas cars.....
*pause....ponder*
(HHMMMM say the battery naysayers )
I don't think anyone would pay much more than that for financing in this market anyway. As far as the HAH in BC. What a waste of gas. People there are looking for some serious KM for their Loonie. I just ran $86 worth of gas through a Camry on Vancouver Island. There was no place that you could drive over 90 KMH (56 MPH). Anything more than a 4 cylinder is a total waste of fuel. Which was $1.089 per liter on the last fill up. That works out to $3.40 US per gallon. And they have all the oil they need and sell us a bunch as well. One of the best selling cars in Victoria is the Smart fortwo that gets 72 MPG on the much cheaper diesel $3.02 US per gallon. We all need more 50 + MPG cars.
Hybrid resale is still an unknown. The hybrids over 100k miles are not bringing BB prices. That indicates people are worried about the batteries.
Maybe in YOUR MIND it's still an unknown. With 2001 Priuses with 70,000 miles on them still getting $18K at the dealers, that's pretty much a "KNOWN" if you ask me.
No car with 100,000 miles is getting BB. That's what happens when cars reach the "mythical" 100K plateau - the resales value falls off the chart. That is not unique to Hybrids one iota.
Railroadjames (hybrids R NOW)
Neither you nor I live in BC. Less than 3% of people in USA/Canada live in BC. So to pretend as if the TCO of a HAH is lower than an Accord EX, and base this on a maximum of 3% of people is beyond ridiculous. Once again, "Enough said" !!
And that resale thing is OF COURSE an estimate; but I can show you data after data which shows that Priuses and HCHes are holding their own very well compared to their non-hybrid counterparts
Where is the data for hybrids with 100/120K miles on them. I'm waiting. And remember, asking prices and just that. Asking prices. Nobody in their right minds would pay $15800 for 3 y/o Civic, TMV or no TMV.
And remember: In the LONG history of the US car market, NO CAR at the top of a model line (EX versus LX versus DX for example) has EVER lost value more than a lower model line car in the same family. Since the HCH and the HAH are the "top of the line" for their model families, there is no reason to think they will buck that trend.
And what do you base this statement on. Are you going to say "TMV" again. And do you mean lost value as a percent, or in actual dollars? You want examples. Here is a few.
Early 90's BMW 7-series compared to same year 5-series or even 3-series.
Early 90's Infiniti Q compared to M/I
96 E-class MB vs S-class.
First year VW Phaeton vs same year high-end Passat
And I'm quite sure in a year or 2, the 1st year of the bangled 5-series will be worth less than the last model year E39's
And a 92 LS400 is worth probably a little more than a 92 ES, but it's original price was 70% higher. This is despite the fact the LS400 is one of the most reliable cars EVER.
You can see a pattern here. Other things being equal, high end cars with a lot of gadgetry lose more value both as a percent and actual dollars than mainstream cars. There is only one reason for this. "More high-priced items to fix when they eventually break". A hybrid fits this bill perfectly.
You say there is no reason to buck that imaginary trend. Here's one. One of them is a "HYBRID".
quote Zodiac2004-"And what do you base this statement on. Are you going to say "TMV" again. And do you mean lost value as a percent, or in actual dollars? You want examples. Here is a few. Early 90's BMW 7-series compared to same year 5-series or even 3-series. Early 90's Infiniti Q compared to M/I 96 E-class MB vs S-class. First year VW Phaeton vs same year high-end Passat And I'm quite sure in a year or 2, the 1st year of the bangled 5-series will be worth less than the last model year E39's And a 92 LS400 is worth probably a little more than a 92 ES, but it's original price was 70% higher. This is despite the fact the LS400 is one of the most reliable cars EVER."-end quote
You misunderstood me. I said and meant "CARS IN THE SAME MODEL LINE WHICH ARE THE SAME CAR just BADGED DIFFERENT" because of features. Meaning a Camry DX and a Camry LE and a Camry XLE or a Civic DX and a Civic LX and a Civic EX and THEN comes the Civic Hybrid - top of the line in THAT model....No Camry LE has ever surpassed a Camry XLE in resale value. And in the same way, no Civic EX is ever going to surpass the Civic Hybrid in resale value. That's what I meant, and its' absolutely true.
So, yes, my statement remains true. And remember: In the LONG history of the US car market, NO CAR at the top of a model line (EX versus LX versus DX for example) has EVER lost value more than a lower model line car in the same family. Since the HCH and the HAH are the "top of the line" for their model families, there is no reason to think they will buck that trend.
quote Zodiac2004-"Where is the data for hybrids with 100/120K miles on them. I'm waiting. And remember, asking prices and just that. Asking prices. Nobody in their right minds would pay $15800 for 3 y/o Civic, TMV or no TMV."-end quote
ALL Cars which reach 100K miles drop off the chart when it comes to resale value - that's a mythical drop point. Hybrids will not drop more or less than any other car. And do you really understand what Edmunds TMV really is? It comes from data from car dealers. It's REAL numbers, not an estimate. Based on ACTUALLY SOLD CAR SALES transactions. So I guess there are a lot of people "not in their right mind" out there buying these high quality used Hybrids.
Answer my question. As a percent or actual dollars ?
quote Zodiac2004-"Where is the data for hybrids with 100/120K miles on them. I'm waiting. And remember, asking prices and just that. Asking prices. Nobody in their right minds would pay $15800 for 3 y/o Civic, TMV or no TMV."-end quote
ALL Cars which reach 100K miles drop off the chart when it comes to resale value - that's a mythical drop point. Hybrids will not drop more or less than any other car. And do you really understand what Edmunds TMV really is? It comes from data from car dealers. It's REAL numbers, not an estimate. Based on ACTUALLY SOLD CAR SALES transactions. So I guess there are a lot of people "not in their right mind" out there buying these high quality used Hybrids
According to you,
03 Civic EX with 50000 miles -> $15800
What was it when new -~ 18500 ??
And you say all cars drop off the chart when they hit 100K miles. So, what would you say the 03 Civic is worth in 2008 with 100K miles. 2K. Or 4K.
Now extend this example to the HCH.
Fill in the blanks here and you'll see my various points, which are
1. TMV does not cut checks for used cars. Used car buyers do.
2. Used cars with a proven technology command a premium in the market. Questionable technology commands the opposite.
3. Hybrids are NOT proven technology. The fact that they have been around for 10 years doesn't mean much especially since hybrid technology hasn't been stable in those 10 years.
4. The only long-term proven technology for better mileage than regular gasoline cars are diesel cars - and VW diesels have proved that with their diesel cars commanding a significant premium over their gasoline counterparts despite the fact they are made by VW.
5. What happens to your beloved HCH's resale if hybrid technology takes a couple of big leaps forward.
6. While I understand people need to buy the current hybrids just so the manufacturers can invest in making better hybrids, you should understand what those buyers are doing. They are in fact paying the price for the future buyers. If people didn't buy the first cars Honda/Toyota/any car manufacturer made, they wouldn't be around making cars today.
Actual dollars. The percent has probably not fluctuated much either.
quote zodiac2004-"And you say all cars drop off the chart when they hit 100K miles. So, what would you say the 03 Civic is worth in 2008 with 100K miles. 2K. Or 4K."-end quote
Well, lets use actual numbers:
2000 Civic EX loaded, 70000 miles = TMV $11,266
2000 Civic EX loaded, 105000 miles = TMV $9,772
Not exactly off the chart, is it? But the point is, and every car dealer and anyone in the used car business can verify that the 100K dropoff really exists - it's not something I made up...
You need to get off the TMV disrespect thing. It's an actual number based on reported actual sales at actual dealers. There is nothing on the web more accurate than Edmunds TMV.
quote zodiac2004-"3. Hybrids are NOT proven technology. The fact that they have been around for 10 years doesn't mean much especially since hybrid technology hasn't been stable in those 10 years."-end quote
That is absolutely false. Hybrid technology has been incredibly stable and proven over multiple millions of real road miles. I have no idea where you might get that asinine and completely untrue opinion.
quote zodiac2004-"5. What happens to your beloved HCH's resale if hybrid technology takes a couple of big leaps forward. ."-end quote
Even if they make a 2009 Civic that gets 100 MPG, my 2004 is still superior to all the 2004 4 door cars on the road except the Prius in the MPG game. So your "two big leaps forward" will have no effect at all on a 2004 car.