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1. An much-improved derivative of the current K24 engine found on the TSX, essentially adding the direct fuel injection and stratified combustion of the K20B engine found on the Japanese-market Honda Stream. This means more torque than the current K24 engine, something necessary given the potential weight of the final RDX.
2. A variant of the i-CTDi turbodiesel engine. Don't laugh--the current i-CTDi engine sold in Japan and Europe has more peak torque than even the 3.5-liter V-6 engine found on the current Honda Accord! With the arrival of low-sulfur motor fuels in 2006, Honda could make the engine pass Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle certification, which makes the engine 50-state legal. But for the Acura RDX, the i-CTDi engine will get a bump up in displacement to 2.4-liters and a different turbocharger design to give this turbodiesel engine more "sporting" performance.
Diesel isn't likely for a few years here in the USA.
The only other info is what it will look like.. and since it is a "concept", even that could change....
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Now I look at the RDX and what is it likely to be: a souped up CRV! A MDX Wannabe! What a let-down!
I am a BMW fan and I was very excited many years ago about the X3. After a X3 test drive, I fled the dealership. To me a x3 felt like a cheap version of an x5. Now all what is needed is a cheaper version of MDX! No thanks!
Not a very good substitute for an MDX, but they already have that..
Of course, if it is over $30K, I doubt it will sell very well.. but, I've been wrong before.
regards,
kyfdx
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And smaller vehicles are just that, they offer something less than their larger siblings, and in case of RDX that would be MDX, and for BMW, X3 works the same way following X5. Lexus duo of GX and LX is pretty much the same (although the LX hasn’t been redesigned in a while).
What exactly did you need though, if not a cheaper/smaller version of MDX? (MDX is also due for redesign next year).
kyfdx and robertsmx,
compare the RDX concept two years ago(refer to the link above) to the concept shown yesterday(the link below). What a difference two years makes.
http://hondanews.com/CatID3046?mid=2005010956031&mime=asc&- ;amp- ;archives=t
I agree that 19-28 is possible. But that would be with VCM. I think 20 mpg, or even 21 mpg, would be possible with VCM. But anything higher for the city rating is a bit unrealistic.
For example, when the MD-X concept was shown back in 2000 it had hardwood flooring. The MDX concept also had a fairly futuristic interior, it was about 7/8s scale, and had more edgy styling.
When we look at the production version we don't see any hardwood flooring, the interior is very close to the TL of the time, it grew a few inches and included a 3rd row of seats, and the styling was tamed a bit.
Now take a look at the RD-X concept. Notice the hardwood floors? Notice the futuristic interior and edgy styling? Now ask yourself how much of the concept will make production.
When you look at the TL concept, you see more similarities. The bits and pieces Acura deletes from concept to production are pretty consistent. It's still a guessing game, but there are lots of clues.
The RD-X is designed to be powered by a unique 250 horsepower, 4-wheel drive, hybrid powertrain that combines a high-output i-VTEC(TM) engine with an Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system. Under the hood is a high performance 2.4-liter, 16-valve, DOHC 4-cylinder engine coupled to 6-speed, close-ratio clutchless manual transmission, which drives the front wheels, while the advanced IMA system powers the rear wheels.
Inspired by Honda's Formula One race cars, the RD-X's clutchless manual transmission uses computer controls to operate the clutch for smooth engagement. Shifting is accomplished with a paddle shifter conveniently mounted close at hand on the center console while the close-ratio design of the gearbox helps the driver extract maximum performance from the engine.
That last post wasn't meant to be a reply to you, specifically. I was just spouting off after reading lots of stuff in several forums.
For a while, I was hoping for a 2.4L IMA production version. (Though, I never expected all the other gizmos from earlier concepts.) For the past year, I had all but given up on that.
1. Honda's hybrid program didn't seem to be moving quite fast enough, and not in the same direction.
2. When the RL got an ICE without IMA, I kinda put the idea to rest. I wasn't going to say "never", but I no longer held hopes.
3. Perhaps you missed it, but Honda's head honcho recently stated that a hybrid SUV was not in their 3 year plan. That pretty much nailed the coffin shut.
Styling
Great, overall. It combines the best of Acura's clean-sided, slightly edgy lines in a decent body shape. It's aggressive, but not over-sexed. Over-sexed designs like the Nissan Titan turn me off. Can you say, "trying too hard?"
The roof looks nice, but I don't expect it to make production. The lights up front and in back also look pretty good. While I don't expect them to make production as shown, I wouldn't be surprised to see production lights that are "similar" in form. The grill is an interesting interpretation of what we've been seeing since the TSX. The brushed aluminum surround could be toned down a bit, but I like it.
On the whole, I find this concept's externals to be appealing, and realistic. I suspect this is to the production version as the concept TL was to the '04 TL: Somewhat bolder, but very close.
Interior
Very little of this is going to make production. Too radical. I'm expecting a TSX-like level of content and similar styling. It will probably be an evolutionary step from the current TSX, but not a radical departure. So, the only important thing to take from that concept is that Acura has not finalized the interior.
Mechanicals
There are only two things we can bank on, SH-AWD and the ACE body structure. But those are great things to have in the bank!
Estimates for the weight of the SH-AWD unit all range north of 220 lbs. That's about double what RT4WD weighs for anyone trying to the RDX with the next CR-V in mind. (We can probably expect VTM-4 for Honda's while Acura gets SH-AWD.)
The ACE structure means good crash protection, but I suspect that this also means a bit more weight. The Ody got a bit more portly without a big upgrade in exterior size. The RL kept itself "relatively" trim using aluminum subframes. That would be a rather expensive solution for a vehicle in the RDX's pay grade. I think 3,800 lbs is a respectable estimate.
If you were expecting a CR-V based vehicle, forget it. And expect this to be a bit chunkier than the current CR-V and Element. The Elysion seems to be about the same size as a RDX, it uses the ACE structure, and can be had with either the 2.4L or 3.0L engines. Despite the fact that Acura's spokesman described this as a "new" platform, I'm still thinking the RDX is a first cousin to the Elysion.
That brings us to the...
Powertrain
There are two things we can rule out safety: IMA and Diesel. IMA is not part of the 3-year plan. Whatever plans might be in effect for the future of diesel in this country, Acura execs would have to be on some really good drugs to launch a brand new sport vehicle with a diesel engine. Besides, Acura doesn't have enough diesel production capacity to meet UK demands. Where are they going to get those engines for the US?
Our only clue is "200 plus horsepower". Acura estimates HP the same way they estimate pricing. Remember "well under $50,000" for the new RL? But when you add the destination charge, the real price was only a few hundred below that mark. Which probably means something like 210 or 220 hp for the RDX.
Several folks have cited the Accord's 240 hp output as evidence that the RDX probably is not getting a V6. I don't see it that way. The RDX could very easily get a V6 tuned to produce more torque in the bottom end at the expense of some hp in the upper range. Witness the 2.4L Robertsmx and I were discussing earlier. The CR-V produces peak torque (162) at 3,600 rpms, while the Accord (and Element) version of the same block hits its peak (161) at 4,500 rpms. They may have done something similar with the V6 for the RDX.
FWIW, I am hoping for the V6, but not counting on it. The extra pounds and sporting intentions warrant more torque than even the mighty 2.4L can command.
But don't write off the 2.4L block, yet. I've read many posts from people comparing the X3 and FX35 to the RDX. Common insights include, "the BMW has a V6, so the RDX must have one, too." I don't buy that either. I mean, the TSX is "supposed" to compete with the 3 series and A4. It does so with a four banger, rather than a V6 or turbo I4. The success of the TSX and warm reception for the V6 RL may have proven to Acura/Honda that displacement and cylinder count really don't matter as much as enthusiasts like to say.
In theory, we could see a more powerful next generation K24, producing just enough power to get the job done. Something like 220 hp with 175 ft-lbs might be Acura's starting point. Then IMA could show up for the mid-model refresh. I'm willing to bet that an I4 will end up being the base for the CR-V if it is based on this vehicle.
I, too, don't necessarily think it will have a V-6... they get 200 HP out of the TSX without any sort of "magic".. And 240 HP out of the S2000.. Not that I am advocating any similar kind torque/horsepower engine for a new SUV.. But, like the TSX, they can compete with whatever will do the job, regardless of cylinder count.
I can see my wife wanting one of these... She likes SUVs better than cars, and I'm starting to head the other way.... Might be a switch in the offing...
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With the 2005 concept, we now have few guessing games as far as stlying is concerned (the futuristic interior will be drastically toned down but exterior will stay more or less the same with conventional side mirrors and windshield nozzles. But now, power train is "unknown".
I suspect the relationship will be identical to Pilot-MDX duo, the latter being slightly smaller, more expensive, more luxurious and more athletic. In this case, (next) CR-V would be at the lower end.
I see the CR-V being based on the RDX, not the other way around. In the speech given by Tom Elliot he states, "The RD-X is built on an all-new light-truck platform." He also mentions the ACE body structure.
So, this clearly is not the Global Small Car platform upon which the CR-V and Element are based. It is a next generation structure.
I think it's very likely that the Element will continue to be developed with an I4 and the small car platform. That will become Honda's entry level utility vehicle. The RDX-based CR-V will be a middle-of-the-road offering in the 21-28K range. It may include both an I4 base and V6 upgrade. Then the Pilot will cap off the Honda line in the $27-34K range.
Styling:
I expect the exterior to be toned down. Real side mirrors and conventional windshield wipers to appear for sure in production version. Wheel size will be 17 inch (instead of 19 inch as shown). The grill reminds me of Accord Muscle-tec concept (Geneva 2003) which was a hybrid. It could change to be more inline with other Acura models (especially MDX). In other words, little will change and overall theme will carry forward (the 2002 study model was too radical, IMO).
Interior will change for sure, to be more conventional than it is. Paddle shifter may continue to be available.
Mechanicals:
Honda may be developing a new small light truck platform to compliment its midsize light truck platform (Odyssey, Pilot, Ridgeline and MDX). Next CR-V, Element and RDX could use it.
Power train remains a big uncertainty, but I would not count a hybrid version (even as a trim level) out, yet (especially looking at the grill which, about a year ago, I associated with Honda hybrid since it appeared similar in Civic Hybrid and the Euro Accord Muscle-tec, so it is possible for RDX concept to be a hybrid, now only if we had a close-up view of the dash gauges).
As for engine, 3.0/V6 with 220-240 HP remains a strong possibility. I seriously doubt use of 2.4/I-4 as the engine of choice with or without 200+ HP, and not without hybridization, primarily due to (potential) heft and performance reasons.
SH-AWD may be the Acura thing, with even next MDX getting it, as VTM-4 is relegated to Honda lineup. And that would mean RDX getting the SH-AWD treatment (Varmint and I appear to be on the same page on this one as well). CR-V and Element are bordering on being a bit heavy for the 2.4/I-4 block even with short gearing they utilize, but RDX is primarily going to be sold with automatic transmission, so a larger V6, or K24+IMA is more likely.
I completely disagree. There is nothing like this vehicle on the market right now. There are a lot of people looking for a well equipped small SUV for 30-35K. Just try to equip any other small SUV with a decent amount of features (take the RAV4 for example)- I bet it will cost well over 30K. The X3 is overpriced as a base model, add any extras and foggetaboutit.
Acura has a long tradition of providing tremendous value in terms of amenities and performance at a fair price.
I think the "concept" vehicle is very attractive and it seems like Acura will not disappoint with the available technology (SH-AWD, ESC, side and head curtain airbags, available navigation, etc.) I can't wait to test drive one! I just hope my wifes '98 Blazer holds out long enough for this car to make it to the market.
However, I do think that because Acura is aimed at higher-end buyers there is a good chance we may see an RDX with an Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid powerplant using an electric motor in combination with the K24 I-4 2.4-liter engine; however, the K24 used on the RDX will likely sport newer features such as direct fuel injection and stratified combustion, features lifted from the K20B engine used on the Japanese market Honda Stream.
Honda could use the smaller-displacement version of the 3.5-liter V-6 used on the Honda Accord, but I think if they do use it on the RDX it will likely sport Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) to improve highway fuel efficiency.
An all new platform is pretty exciting... MSRP creep is what worries me most... $33K-$35K will be too much, IMO..
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Not necessarily. SH-AWD may have been designed to be flexible with hybrid power train. The Hybrid AWD system in 2001 Honda Dual Note prototype was very similar to SH-AWD. There was just a little difference to the functionality of ATTS in the hybrid AWD system and that was towards regenerative braking.
In SH-AWD the ATTS, along with acceleration device, can continuously transfer power between wheels and speed up the outer wheel as needed. In the hybrid AWD system, the ATTS was designed to do just that, but under less than aggressive cornering, the inside wheel’s energy was trapped to recharge the batteries (if required) instead of sending it to the outer wheel.
This is one big reason I suspect we will see SH-AWD w/hybrid power train sometime in the future, if not with RDX.
As for pricing, RDX may be offered with 2-3 trims, from $30K base model (fully loaded of course, with NAV being the an option) to $35K touring model w/NAV. And from there, MDX takes over.
I'm just trying to be the detective.... If they are using the same type system as the RL, then that kind of precludes it being hybrid..
Of course, 3-4 years in the future, who knows...
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My main disappointment about the RDX is that it will not be with IMA.
Yep, if used with hybrid, I would suspect it to be called something different (but you never know, I used to think about i-VTEC one way until I read about the i-VTEC V6 engines).
dewey:
I believe one of the V6s (3.0, 3.2 or 3.5) is the most likely candidate to power RDX, but I wouldn’t rule out hybrid if Acura were consider the I-4 (2.4).
As for the announcement, it is a little vague. Remember, the emphasis was “not in plan for three years beginning April”. Could it mean not more planning from April onwards? If RDX were to be launched into showrooms next year, the plan would already be in place (in fact, testing may be going on right now).
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"
I am not disagreeing that the RDX will not suit the needs of a CRV driver looking for more oomph or a person who wants a MDX but finds it too costly. There is definitely a market for such a vehicle.
IMO, I find the SUbaru B9X quite exciting---although it is not comparable to a RDX since it is not a small SUV. Looks more tempthing than the Highlander/Pilot.
Take a look at these shots:
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000427026847/
The main reason why I suspected that a V6 would be the powerplant was an assumption that the RDX would be slightly larger than the current CR-V and thus it would need the V6 to move the weight.
However, looking at more of the pics from the autoshow, I am beginning to think that this concept is a good deal smaller than I first assumed. When you look at pics which include people standing around the vehicle, it begins to look almost RAV4ish! Okay, maybe not that small, but certainly no bigger than the current CR-V.
The current CR-V (with AWD and 5AT) weighs about 3,500 lbs. Replacing RT4WD with SH-AWD would add about 110 lbs. Adding all the electronics and luxury content to make it an Acura would add another 80-100 lbs, bringing the total to just north of 3,700 lbs.
Pretty heavy.
But Acura may be working more with weight savings to take the sting out of that. If (a big "if") they keep the fixed panel glass roof, they might shave 20-30 lbs vs a power sunroof. If they use a few aluminum panels in places like the hood, they might shave a few more lbs. Seven lbs can be lost using the same magnesium alloy transmission case found in the TSX. The RL uses aluminum subframes (expensive) to save weight. It's possible they could do the same with the RDX.
Anyway, all these little weight saving measures add up. They *might* keep the curb weight down between 3,600 and 3,650 lbs. At that level, a 220 hp I4 producing 175 lb-ft might be enough to put performance on par with the TSX. Acura may figure that's good enough.
I'm still hoping for the 3.0L V6, but I'm not placing any bets.
"But I was surprised to learn that Honda is considering a hybrid SUV after reading the AutoWeek Q&A that said there were no plans for such a vehicle from Honda."
Refer to the site above. So is a RDX with IMA a possibility? Unlikely but there is hope!
"It [Honda] has added hybrid versions of its Civic and Accord sedans, but plans no more until a hybrid SUV that's at least three years off."
That doesn't contradict AutoWeek. It repeats what was said in the Q&A.
Jeez, you had me all excited for a second there. LOL
I am excited about the RDX because I want a small, fully loaded SUV with navigation and all available safety features. A smaller SUV gets better gas mileage, handles better and is easier to park. Sure it is nice that is will cost less than an MDX but that is not the reason I want one.
The Subaru B8X does look interesting although the front end is kind of ugly. I will definitely test drive one when they come out. Curious to see the pricing also. Given similar pricing and equipment I would buy the Acura hands down - better dealership treatment, better resale and better reliability than Subaru.
Me too! I dont know what the pricing will be for the RDX, but I read the B9 will be priced closely to an MDX. That to me is a bit too close for comfort!
For comparison with the RDX, I'd probably take a loaded Legacy or possibly the Forester XT (turbo). The Tribeca looks too big. While I like the idea of a bigger Soob, I have agree that the front end is just plain horrible. It makes the back of an Accord look sexy.
"For now, we are not thinking about it" for the three-year plan starting in April, says Honda President Takeo Fukui.
Fukui may be playing with words here, perhaps to make Honda a little "less predictable". To build a vehicle should require (at least) 2-3 years of planning and preparation. OTOH, RDX has already been announced for production. The plan was drafted a few years ago, and in “production ready” form, probably couple of years ago. Why not “now”, and why “starting in April”?
This is not to suggest that RDX WILL be a hybrid, but IMO, has a chance to be (or be offered as a trim level). My bet would still be on one of the three V6 power plants (3.0, 3.2 or 3.5).
But being as specific as Fukui is in his statement (down to the month when it comes to “starting a plan”), you couldn’t raise eye brows at his comment. He could have just as well said: “We have no plans for building a hybrid SUV for next three years”.
ropedart:
RDX will be produced in Marysville, along side TL and Accord. Civic and Element are produced in East Liberty, and CR-V and a few units of Accord will be produced there as well.
Engine isn’t going to relate to any platform. It could be K-series I-4 (used in CR-V, Element and potentially in next Civic, as well as Accord) or J-series V6 (Accord and TL).
The CR-V is not supposed to start production in Ohio until the next full model change. So, by the time the CR-V is being produced along side the Element, it may no longer have the same 5 speed auto and torquier 2.4L engine.
It is entirely possible that the Element will remain on the small global platform (like the Edix/FR-V), while the CR-V and RDX share this new platform.
As for engines, there is nothing solid at this time. With certainty we can say no diesel. And it's very unlikely we'll see a hybrid. (See posts above.)
Attendees of NAIAS have stated that it "looks" like there is room for a V6 under the hood. Early speculation included the possibility that the RDX is based on the Elysion minivan from the JDM market. That van uses a 2.4L as the base engine with an option for the 3.0L V6 as an upgrade. That would kinda make sense if the CR-V is also going to be based on this. The CR-V will need an economical option.
However, attendees from the auto show have also stated that the suspension under the front of the RDX "looked" like it was mac strut. The Elysion uses double wishbones in all four corners. So, it could be a modified Elysion platform with the front subframes swapped out. Both vehicles use the new ACE crash architecture. Or, this is something completely new.
Another bit of speculation has it that the RDX is based on the Edix. The Edix does use struts up front. But that is where the similarity ends. The Edix is G-CON based, while the RDX is ACE based.
Really, the only two existing options that make sense are the 2.4L or the 3.0L. Which one depends mostly on weight. And we have no idea what the weight of this vehicle will be.
Okay, very well. If we're going to get that picky with the wording, then let's read what was actually published.
"For now, we are not thinking about it" for the three-year plan starting in April, says Honda President Takeo Fukui.
Mr Fukui did not actually say what you are claiming. He was not that specific. Note where the quote ends. He made a statement about hybrid SUVs in the context of a discussion about their 3 year plan. The author of the article added the context, but those are not Fukui's words.
Furthermore, since we're being picky, why would Fukui use the word "now" (present tense) when describing their thinking. In the next paragraph Fukui is quoted with the following.
SUV owners care little about fuel economy, Fukui says. "If they look for fuel efficiency," he says, "they could shift to a car."
What part of that statement makes you think they have a hybrid in the works?
I don't think parsing the exact language is going to lead anywhere.
"For now, we are not thinking about it" for the three-year plan starting in April, says Honda President Takeo Fukui.
My question remains, why "April"?
Regarding the second statement, if I were around asking him questions, I would have asked him about V8.
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Interviewer: How are Honda's plans shaping up?
Fukui: We have a 3 year plan starting in April with several exciting product launches and technology initiatives.
Interviewer: Such as?
Fukui: Much of that will be announced later, at the auto show. But, of course, we do have the launch of the Ridgeline coming, Azimov will serve cocktails on our new jets, we expect to expand sales in the US, develop a hub for diesel engines in the UK, and promote our hybrid line.
Interviewer: What about a hybrid SUV?
Fukui: We have no plans for a hybrid SUV.
The conversation *could* have easily gone something like that. And it would be fair to assume that Fukui was speaking in reference to their 3 year plan. But it's not like he was being coy about phrasing his words. It's very probable that the interviewer just summarized a series of questions into one condensed sentence.
So, yeah, I don't think we can derive anything important by picking apart his words. As you say, it doesn't show what he really said.
My favorite use of semantics...
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Nissan probably had the right idea with the Murano, but got carried away. The vehicle is just too radical to be accepted mainstream. The new Xterra looks promising but I think Nissan is targeting more of a hardcore off-road crowd with it.
The RDX appears to be the recipe that I've been looking for -- CR-V roominess and reliability, but enhanced with a real AWD system, some muscle under the hood, and TSX-level luxury and safety.
I guess you could add the Tribute and the Escape in their highest dollar configurations, but you are missing the "luxury" nameplate..
Not that I would recommend the Freelander ($33K loaded up, I think), but it seems like it would be really similar to the RDX in mission and design, if not execution..
regards,
kyfdx
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The Freelander is a good comparison in price, prestige, and luxury gizmos, but it's not very sporty, at all. The engine is rough and not very powerful. And the handling is sloppy. What it does have is great off-roading capability. It's a Rover, after all.
The BMW X3 is really the closest competitor. While the price climbs to $36,000 when equipped with even modest levels of luxury, that's kinda typical of BMWs. The market expects a premium for BMW.
The next-best competitor would probably be the FX35. It's more vehicle than RDX and X3, but Infiniti has them priced well enough to compete.
I agree with your assessment of the Freelander, but most people buy these cars after a five-minute test drive.. An "on-paper" comparison would put the RDX and the Freelander in direct competition, except for horsepower.. The fact that the Freelander is severly lacking in a real-world comparison is another matter..
I don't think most people consider the Forester an SUV (I don't, but I could be wrong)...Of course, I feel the same way about the Outback.
I mentioned the Tribute/Escape mostly because of the Mazda connection, and that import buyers might consider it.. Mercury Mariner? How will they ever hear about that car? How many people even know what a Mercury Mountaineer really is?
FX35 is a good example...but, the styling severely limits their market..
regards,
kyfdx
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The Tribute twins, Forester XT and Redline are all competent vehicles in their own rights (especially the Subie) but I think they compete with the CR-V, especially the '05 CR-V with its significant upgrades.