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Hybrids and HOV Lanes

SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
edited March 2014 in General
Here's the place to discuss various initiatives around the country for hybrid and electric vehicle use of HOV lanes.
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Comments

  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    For the latest status on this bill to allow one person occupied hybrids (only 2004 Prius, Civics, and Insights as it's written now) in the HOV lanes in California, go to the CA bill sight www.leginfo.ca.gov/bilinfo.html and type in 2628. The current status is that it's passed in the legistrature and is almost to the end of the senate passing it also. It will have it's 3rd reading today then should go up for a vote soon afterwards. Once they pass it the only thing left to do will be for Arnold to sign it and he already said he would, despite his owning 4 Hummers. :o)
  • bswansonbswanson Member Posts: 8
    How long could this bill last even if it is passed? Cars with one person in them taking up space in the HOV lane will not help my morning commute with my two coworkers.

    -Joey
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    What CA and I'm sure other states need to do is take all the people that are in those lanes illegally OUT of the lanes. Since you and your two co-workers are in the lane and not watching it, it's harder for you to see that at least 25% of the people in the HOV lane DON'T belong there. CA is limiting the exception to only 50,000 hybrids, hardly a factor in LA county where there are 4,000,000 cars on the road (at least!)
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    I agree. Here in Atlanta it's more like 50% at any given time. No patrols at all. The worst are the Land Rover Discoverys. They are always in those HOV lanes with one person. And those get are as bad a polluters as the Hummer H2!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't drive during rush hour enough to be an authority. My experience on the commuter lanes was not very good. I seem to get behind someone driving 55-60 mph. The rest of the lanes are going by us at 70-75mph. And you can be stuck for several miles on Interstate 5 & 15 in San Diego County. I wonder how they would limit the hybrids to 50,000 vehicles. Actually 2 people in a Corolla that gets 30+mpg is better than 2 people driving a Prius that gets 50mpg. Not that it really affects me. I think the tax incentives are a better benefit for hybrid owners.
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    The way it will work in CA is that the highway dept. issues a permit (sticker) for cars allowed in the HOV lane with only one passenger. Currently they are cars powered by all electric or natural gas. They will only issue 50,000 of these stickers then see how they have impacted the HOV lanes. If possible, they will then issue 25,000 more.
  • jpricejprice Member Posts: 58
    <Actually 2 people in a Corolla that gets 30+mpg is better than 2 people driving a Prius that gets 50mpg.>

    I'm sure it's just a typo, but you must mean "1 person driving a Prius..." 2 people in the Prius at 50mpg is obviously better than two people in a Corolla at 30mpg.

    jprice
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Jprice:

    ___I believe Gagrice did get it right. 2 people in a car getting 30 mpg is better then 1 in a car receiving 50 mpg. Not including emissions of course … And what about the individual driving the Corolla receiving > 45 mpg and the Hybrid driver receiving less?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My point was lost I guess. Carpooling is good for everyone. Not taking anything from those that drive a Prius. Two people in a Prius would be great. Four even better. Just think of the savings if 50 people took a Hybrid Bus.
  • jpricejprice Member Posts: 58
    Wayne,
    Are you sure you really read what I said? Try it again...

    John P.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My wife and I pulled along side a woman in a Jeep Cherokee. She had a female blow up doll in the passenger seat. I commented to my wife to look. She said she is probably doing that to sneak into the commuter lanes. Like they say, What ain't fruits and nuts in California, are Flakes.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I've seen a few blow up dolls here in Tx and not always in the HOV lane... but gagrice if there are a bunch of fruits & nuts in Ca where does that leave you on an island ?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When in San Diego I am on a mountain. I'm sure there are people that would consider me flakey also. I can guarantee I would never work an 8 to 5 job in CA and commute to work. That is why I quit and moved to Alaska in 1970. It is a nice place if you don't have to commute to work. I take care of my business from 10 to 2PM then get off the roads.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If I did have to commute I would be in the market for a Hybrid or diesel for sure.
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    The bill has passed through the state senate and now will go back to the assembly for "concurance". The next step will put it on Arnold's desk for the governer's signature, maybe as early as this Friday. On a sidenote, Ford sent a letter to the governer that opposed him signing it saying it amounted to a "buy Japanese bill". A couple of the senators had great responses to that. One said that obviously a hybrid car CAN be built that meets the pollution standards and gets 45+ mpg. Ford just needs to "spend more time figuring out how to out-compete the Japanese" That's especially funny since Ford is using the Synergy Drive to power their new Escape.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Everyone does realize that the bill is limited to only 50,000 cars? Or at least that is the last update I heard on the issue...
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    They will allow 50,000 cars and then do an evaluation on the impact of those extra cars in the HOV lanes. They may add another 25,000 after that. 50,000 is a lot of 2004 Prius, Civics and Insights, they are the only year models and cars that meet the regulations in the bill for the exemption.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    I think that the mostly empty HOV lanes in California are an excellent example of what happens when a government entity thinks it can force people to do the "right" thing. If we take away a lane and only allow carpoolers to use it, we'll force them to carpool. Result: increased congestion, a needlessly empty lane, and people buying blow-up dolls. Same thing with CARB - if we force the manufacturers to build smaller cars, people will buy smaller cars. I think not.

    Anyway, now they are trying to backpedal by allowing single-passenger cars, but only if the car is a hybrid and only if it gets 45+ mpg. Again, let's force them to buy the cars we think are the right ones to buy. I think Ford is right to protest. The real purpose of the HOV lanes were to decrease smog and traffic congestion, not decrease gas consumption. By unecessarily tacking on the hybrid and mpg requirements, the legislature is unfairly excluding PZEV (or even SULEV) vehicles, and ICE vehicles that get excellent mileage.

    IMHO, the whole HOV lane thing should be scrapped anyway as a complete (and predictable) failure. Gee, I wonder how many of the California legislators carpool to work?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Same thing with CARB - if we force the manufacturers to build smaller cars, people will buy smaller cars. I think not.

    I think you're correct. That is probably a contributing factor of increased sales of large crew cab pickup trucks with diesel engines. They are not as heavily regulated as cars and the natural reaction is to avoid unfair & unbalanced regulation.
  • wzmazerwzmazer Member Posts: 2
    Do you know how they will allocate these 50,000 decals? Also, will the decals be tied to specific cars, or will they be resellable in a secondary market (ie eBay)?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You bring up an interesting possibilty. I think if I were to buy a HOV sticker on ebay and try to use it on my Suburban, I'd get busted. I'm sure they have to be on the vehicles they were issued for.
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    The decals will only be issued to autos applying for them that meet the qualifications. I think it would be easy to tell if a car meets the requirements since there are so few models that do. I don't know where you've seen empty HOV lanes but any HOV lane at rush hours in LA are used. The biggest problem in the LA area is with air quality. Allowing these super clean cars a little bonus hopefully will entice more people to buy some. It would be nice in the future though if they relax the mpg qualifications and just allow at least the PZEV ICE cars in also.
  • wzmazerwzmazer Member Posts: 2
    Thanks, folks. I wasn't implying putting them on non-qualifying vehicles. I am in the market for a car and want to do whatever I can to cut my Bay Area 50 mile each way commute. I can't guarrantee that I'll get a decal when I buy the car, so I'd be willing to pay someone for their decal if I don't get lucky in the lottery. From your answer, Raguero, that doesn't sound doable. In that case, there's no HOV incentive to someone like myself who is considering a purchase now, other than a chance at the lottery.

    On that note, any ideas how many qualifying vehicles are on the road right now (ie what are my odds in the lottery)? If they are going to give out 50,000 passes, any estimates of how many applicants?

    BTW, my estimated value of a pass is easily above $1500. If you cross the Bay Bridge today, it's $3/day (or roughly $750/year).
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    I read an article that said the max in the bill was 75000 vehicles, but haven't seen any confirmation.

    They will be issued first come first serve, and will probably be tied to either the vehicle and owner or just the vehicle.
  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    Hi gang,
      Here in the SF Bay Area we have the "diamond" or HOV lanes to allow carpooling where, depending on location, 2 or sometimes 3 people in a car qualify as a "carpool". The hours listed will vary slightly, in my area the hours are 5-10 am and 3-7 pm. The last hour of the stated time period is useless because the carpoolers have already arrived at work! I don't know if the CHP (California Highway Patrol) will still issue a $271 ticket or not, but it seems stupid to me. Also, the traffic on the opposite, or non-commute direction is subject to the SAME traffic controls as the commute direction!!
       There are hundreds of bills on Gov. Schwarzeneger's desk waiting to be signed before an upcoming deadline and hopefully one of those bills he should quickly approve is the one that allows hybrids/high mpg vehicles to drive in the diamond lanes even with only a driver. Let us only hope.
    Thanks,
    Rich
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    As I understand it, if Aaanold doesn't sign the bill (as with any bill) it will go into effect. What will take precedent will be the bills that he wants to veto. He already as said he will sign this one but then we'll have to wait for the federal bodies to give CA the approval to implement it. I'm ready now, it would easily cut 20-30 min. off my 1 - 1 1/2 hour commute each way here in LA.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    " I'm ready now, it would easily cut 20-30 min. off my 1 - 1 1/2 hour commute each way here in LA. "

    Nope, or at least not for long. LA has the most hybrids in the country, and those HOV lanes will simply be clogged up - with single drivers, this time...
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    that is already a problem here. There are too many people in the lanes that don't belong and CHP just doesn't have the manpower to enforce it. It'll still make Some difference.
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    Arnold signed the HOV Hybrid Bill today. Per the news, it will take effect on Jan. 1, 2005. This is of course pending the US DOT approval which should come before then. There will be details on how to apply for the special decal upcoming.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The only real problem I see with the hybrids in the commuter lanes is speed. If a guy is trying to get the best mileage from his hybrid he may block traffic if he drives 55 mph. As long as the hybrid keeps up the 75 mph average that people drive in the commuter lane, I say more power to the hybrid guy. And I agree that the laws should be enforced on using the lane illegally.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___A former and very astute hybrid driver brought up a good point in another Hybrid forum the other day about HOV lanes … If they are for saving fuel, the powers that be should only allow large SUV&#146;s in them. I can almost guarantee that more fuel would be saved by sticking our hybrid&#146;s in the stop and go traffic then the same number of H2&#146;s or Escalade&#146;s.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don&#146;t think the point is to save fuel but to encourage purchase of hybrids. Allowing SUVs to run on the HOV lane will only make the situation worse, not only do they get a break on CAFÉ/gas guzzler tax, but now also get HOV lanes? That&#146;s encouraging, isn&#146;t it? And to get back to the potential issues quoted earlier that allowing hybrids could end up clogging the HOV lanes. If so, would it be worse to allow SUVs instead?
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    Why do we need to encourage the purchase of hybrids only? What's wrong with a Ford Focus PZEV or a Toyota Corolla that gets 40MPG? The focus on technology is wrong - it's the results that should be encouraged no matter how the manufacturer does it.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"Why do we need to encourage the purchase of hybrids only?"-end quote

    Encouraging the purchase of Hybrids is just the first step in an evolving process that will take decades to get the general public SERIOUS about saving fuel and lowering greenhouse gas emissions.

    Right now, we need to get people serious about BOTH lower emissions and higher MPG. The ICE versions of the cars you mentioned are not low emissions, just relatively high MPG. That's only half the battle.

    If we get people to understand that they can drive Hybrids with no compromises (don't have to plug it in, etc) and SOON they will have options of the 7-passenger Highlander Hybrid to buy when they need seven butts in a car (which some people REALLY MUST HAVE to fit their lives) which will help even more.

    Small steps, mis amigos, small steps.....:)
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Encouraging the purchase of Hybrids is just the first step in an evolving process that will take decades to get the general public SERIOUS about saving fuel and lowering greenhouse gas emissions"

    So you are saying that a manufacturor that achieves the high MPG with a hybrid design yet uses a dirtier ICE would be fine? That is what the law implies...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'm not saying anything other than what I said...that it's a *process* and these are the baby steps....of course no one wants dirtier ICE in spite of higher MPG.....
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I'm not saying anything other than what I said...that it's a *process* and these are the baby steps....of course no one wants dirtier ICE in spite of higher MPG....."

    And I am agreeing with the former post that started this whole train; the use of HOV lanes (if that is what is desired) should be based on MPG alone, not a certain technology. That is the "baby step", because when people seek higher MPG, the manufacturors will build the cars, less gas will be used, things will improve. The focus on hybrid is foolish and trendy.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"That is the "baby step", because when people seek higher MPG, the manufacturors will build the cars, less gas will be used, things will improve. The focus on hybrid is foolish and trendy."-end quote

    Hybrid is just the first technology that has allowed car makers to build production cars with low emissions and high MPG. (Well, not actually the FIRST EVER, but the first that could appeal to the masses.)

    It is not the "be all end all" of High MPG technology. But it is undeniably the "First" of those technologies.

    We are entirely correct to "focus" on this technology, because it's what has allowed us to make any gains at all. It is not the "only" high MPG technology being worked on - it is merely the FIRST ONE THAT COULD BE MASS PRODUCED AND SOLD. For that alone it deserves it's props.....

    As for the "trendy" part - I agree that all those people who might want a Prius to show their "Green-ness" or to keep up with the Hollywood trend might be engaging in the trend factor.

    But it's not "foolish" to focus on the only clean (meaning Diesel is NOT clean) currently available technology to the masses that provides something that no other technology in the history of autos has provided.

    I'm getting 55.6 MPG on my current tank with my 2004 HCH after 240 miles into the tank, all in City driving. So if it's a TREND to save money at the pump, then call me Mr. Trendy !!!
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    But why should we encourage purchase of a hybrid over an ICE that gets equivalent MPG? Because hybrids are so neat? I agree it's just trendy.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Actually, I&#146;m all for allowing high fuel economy vehicles on HOV, not necessarily hybrids (you can see that in my earlier posts). In my last post, I quoted hybrids only because that the point of debate but I didn&#146;t mean to exclude cars like Civic HX, or even Escape HEV/Accord Hybrid off the list.

    Emission based arguments bring in a little more complexity to the discussion. Are we to assume that Accord PZEV getting 26 mpg results in less overall emissions than Accord Hybrid ULEV-BIN 2 getting 30 mpg? But worth a discussion nonetheless.

    Oh, and I'm not sure what "manufacturer" has got to do with this debate. While Ford could cry "foul" and say that the law benefits "imports", does it really? I would think Accord Hybrid wouldn't qualify either. Nor would RX400H when it comes around.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"But why should we encourage purchase of a hybrid over an ICE that gets equivalent MPG?"-end quote...

    Oh, just a little something about a Brown Smog Cloud, that's all, and greenhouse gases, global warming, carcinogens in exhaust, etc. etc.

    Fact #1: Government WANTS TO ENCOURAGE car buyers to help in the fight against polluting the earth.

    Fact #2: Drivers in HOV lanes "generally" get to and from work faster than drivers in the regular lanes (at times when it is all not gridlock of course).

    Assumption: If you give people a benefit (getting to and from work faster) and tell them they can do that if they will merely buy this ONE certain type of car (and you will get a tax benefit also) that will lower emissions and save them money at the pump every time, people might just want to accept that particular combination of benefits.

    Dangling the carrot, so to speak.

    And the ICE cars that might get "equivalent" MPG are usually not SULEV or PZEV rated vehicles.

    Makes perfect, logical sense to me......and to the California legislature and legislatures from other states also.....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    the manufacturors will build the cars, less gas will be used, things will improve. The focus on hybrid is foolish and trendy

    You are correct. What about the Honda Civic CNG. It is cleaner than any hybrid according to the EPA. Do they get to use the HOV Lanes? I lean more toward minimum 3 per car. That is more of a car pool than two people going to work or one person in a hybrid IMO.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote from gagrice-"You are correct. What about the Honda Civic CNG. It is cleaner than any hybrid according to the EPA."-end quote

    Please go back and re-read Post #40 on this board. I completely explain in that post, in detailed logical progression, WHY we should "focus" on Hybrid technology right now.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "FIRST ONE THAT COULD BE MASS PRODUCED AND SOLD"

    I reread your post #40. It is not a bad idea just not likely to become a reality. They are not having an easy time with components, batteries to be precise. Check RX400h board. Looks like it is now postponed till 2006. I still think we are missing the boat by not promoting modern diesel technology in addition to the other alternatives. It is like putting all your eggs in one basket. A diesel that gets great mileage should have the same rights as a hybrid for using the HOV lanes. And the emissions thing is just a smoke screen that few believe. It is all politically motivated by a few misinformed people in our government.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    The RX400h in 06 thing was probably just a typo, you must hope its true though, I agree we should go after modern diesel technology in addition to the other alternatives. Too bad you believe the emissions thing is just a smoke screen cause here in Houston it's not (about 40 % air pollution caused from autos last I heard) we can and should do better so HEVs in HOV yes and when we have ULSD or whatever lets revisit the issue, CA plan of issuing 50,000 HEV permits sounds like a good plan. (no HEV in HOV exemption in Tx)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe the smoke screen is the one that congress has allowed the lobbyist to pull the wool over their eyes on high sulfur diesel. I would not argue that diesel with 500-3000 ppm is not harmful. It has not been brought into line because the environmentalists are on the payrolls of the large oil companies. It would be so easy to say bring on the clean diesel & modern diesel cars as Europe has done. How many millions of barrels of oil would already be saved. Instead they pull all these smoke and mirror tricks with a few hybrids, and I mean a very few hybrids and act like they are doing something for the environment. I say it is a smoke screen and stick with my opinion of the overall picture in this country.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Here is a question... why do automakers still sell, and consumers still buy, vehicles with gasoline engine in Europe? After all, diesel is (much) cheaper, and "clean".
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It looks like about 50% diesel and rising. According to one poster gas and diesel are both about $5 per gallon in England. It may be that some of the gas vehicles are very high performance and preferable to diesel. I think the overall advantages to diesel are a recent development. I still remember the messy diesels we were offered 20-30 years ago.
  • greencarsgreencars Member Posts: 4
    It's all about encouraging the purchase of hybrids, as you say. Car buyers tend to approach new technology cautiously, no matter how good that technology may be. While recent spikes in gas prices have driven increased interest in hybrids - along with backorders for the Prius and pre-orders for other hybrids - the volume of hybrid sales would be much greater if a larger number of new car buyers understood these vehicles' benefits and how seamlessly they perform on the road.

    Just as important is encouraging a greater commitment on the part of auto manufacturers. They have to make build commitments well ahead of the time a model goes on sale, based on projected sales. When there's hesitation in the marketplace or the market is unknown, the number of vehicles an automaker will commit to build will be conservative. That's been the case across the board with the hybrids we have now and the ones coming shortly.

    In light of that, any move that encourages a much greater number of people to step up and buy hybrids is a very good thing. As greater numbers of people understand how much time they can save on their daily commute by buying a hybrid, sales should increase substantially. As sales increase, auto manufacturers will become more willing to commit to building larger numbers of hybrid models.

    Allowing hybrids in HOV lanes is not a do-all, end-all move, but it sure is a move in the right direction. That said, the state's decision seems shortsighted in excluding hybrid SUVs that won't reach the 45 mpg requirement. SUVs, of course, are vehicles that need as much encouragement as possible to achieve higher fuel economy and reduced emissions, which hybrid technology brings to the party.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Oh, just a little something about a Brown Smog Cloud, that's all, and greenhouse gases, global warming, carcinogens in exhaust, etc. etc."

    I don't understand this statement. If two cars are PZEV and get the same MPG, they will pollute exactly the same, regardless of how they achieve that MPG reading. Hybrids are not "cleaner" than cars with the same efficiency (assuming the cars acutally get the MPGs in question). Actually, considering that Toyota's own information indicates that the Prius costs more environmentally to manufacture, a case could be made that it is worse for the environment than an ICE only that achieved the same MPG.

    Please remember this is a theoretical argument, that is, I'm not sure other cars can achieve the Prius MPG. However the question is - what is best for HOV lanes?

    Also, the Prius is not designed to specifically reduce greenhouse gasses...
This discussion has been closed.