Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

lastwraith · June 2005

As has been pointed out in another forum that became obsessed with braking performance, disc brakes offer no one time stopping distance advantages. They simply offer improved cooling which would only affect a multiple stop situation (driving down a moutain would be a good example). If braking is a concern get bigger brakes or larger tires or BOTH

macakava · June 2005

I will take disc brakes any day over drum because they are much easier to repair/service. They perform better under repeated use and I find that they stop better as well.

With drum, you better watch out for those springs if they decide to go airborne at you. Yes, I do remember those days with 4 wheel drum brakes!!!

lastwraith · June 2005

Agreed, replacing things on a disc brake is generally an easier task. I was just repeating info for those who were still on the fence regarding their minivan choice.

rorr · June 2005

I don't think anyone is debating that disk brakes are easier to service. I had initially posted the info regarding brake capabilities of disk vs. drum brakes due to the perception of many people that drum brakes simply CAN'T stop as well as disk brakes when that is not necessarily true. What counts for far more is tire design and brake swept area, where drum brakes can hold an advantage.

For repeated stops from highway speeds, yes, disk brakes have the advantage. Most minivan drivers won't be pounding the brakes from 80-30 in rapid succession, unless they are open tracking the car (of course, the Ody HAS been referred to as the BMW of minivans.....)

Coming down a mountain? Put the van in D3 and use engine braking. Just because disk brakes dissipate heat better than drums doesn't mean they are immune to brake fade.

96corolla · June 2005

Here's my basic analysis of these two:

"Guys"(and some gals) who are into cars and the "driving experience" will prefer Ody.

Most women/Mom's and guys who aren't too into cars will pick Sienna because of the smooth drive.

That's why I think the Ody wins out in most of the car magazines because most of the test drivers are dudes who mostly care about the "fun to drive" factor. I think the results would be different if they went out and got a bunch of random Mom's who are the primary drivers of minivan's. Although I do know that apparently demographics are changing and more guys are buying(according to CR).

Regardless, both great vans. Just my 2 cents.

macakava · June 2005

"Coming down a mountain? Put the van in D3 and use engine braking. Just because disk brakes dissipate heat better than drums doesn't mean they are immune to brake fade."

Agreed. But I don't believe that many drivers think of using their engines to slow down their cars while going down mountains.

Howvever I do believe that using the engine to slow down your car must be very stressful mechanically to your tranny, and other drive train parts. I remember during my teenage kid years shifting my manual tranny down from 4, 3, 2 to slow down my car because it made an "impressionable sound" with my "straight-thru" muffler. I have destroyed a couple trannies then. Seems like a long time ago!

Personnally, I would only use the engine/tranny to slow down my car during an emergency. I would use my brakes on all other situations because it is far cheaper to replace disc pads or even rotors than a tranny or other drivetrain part.

macakava · June 2005

Agreed.

It depends on where you fit in the spectrum of driving styles and preferences that I have described in past messages.

ewt · June 2005

"I notice that most SUVs have bigger (e.g., 235 mm and wider) tires than vans do. Why?"

Mostly because of weight. Most big SUVs weigh 1000 lbs.+ more than a minivan, and can carry more weight on top of that. All else equal, wider tires have a higher load capacity.

"Do wider tires give the car better emergency-handling capability, braking power, and stability?"

Yes, all else equal. However, they aren't equal here. Body on frame platforms with a higher center of gravity (big SUVs) are inferior to unibody platforms (minivans) in just about every respect other than towing capacity. I doubt you're going to notice any handling differences going up 10 mm in section width. The type of tire you choose would have a much bigger impact. OEM minivan tires are generally pretty mediocre. Choosing a better tire could increase grip significantly.

ljwalters1 · June 2005

I have an '04 Sienna and we test-drove the '04 Oddessay ( the "old" one). From that and my understanding of the changes, my thoughts are this:

The Sienna has a softer ride and the Oddessy drives more like a car. I think the Oddessey is faster, which may not be a priority in this market, but what'd I rather be in while merging onto the freeway with a carload of passengers? The Oddessey.

The Oddessey's 8-way configuration seems better than the Sienna's, b/c the Oddessey's middle seat can double as a table and fold into the floor. Oddesseys 2nd-row seats, in general, move more easily than the Sienna. I think this is a minor point - we've had our Minivan for over a year, and once we found the config we like, it hasn't changed. Bottom line: If you want to go with the 8-seat config, but aren't sure you'll use that space all the time, the Oddessey has a slight edge. Otherwise, it's even.

Based on the above, I don't think you can go wrong, though I give a slight edge to Oddessey. Frankly, I'd copare the 2 with the options I want and see who'd give me the best deal.

macakava · June 2005

Your conclusion supports what C & D reported in their June 2004 minivan comparo.

You cannot go wrong with either one.

thespyder · June 2005

Only One Reason we went with the Honda over the toyota. well maybe 4000 reasons. The best deal i could get on a Sienna XLE with option package 6 (which more or less gets me to what i got with our EXL-RES) was 4000 dollars above what i paid for our odyssey! We really enjoyed both vans. In fact our "perfect van" would have been a Toyonda Sienyssey. but with such a BIG price difference, the choice was easy. the toyota dealer tried to pitch us a LE with lots of options that would come close the honda, but even the most loaded LE you can get has cloth seats and no RES. But the EXL-RES and the XLE + option 6 was the closest i could come to comparing apples to apples. Anyone come closer with a different option package? :confuse:

ljwalters1 · June 2005

Hey, I read a bunch of people saying they're considering a package that doesn't come with 2 sliding doors or an auto rear hatch. IMO, those things are necessary. There are many occasions that I use the auto-hatch and doors, even the door that's not the side on which I have a carseat. Cooling down the car before you get in; running to the car to load packages while it's raining or my hands are just full; making it easy for Gandma and Grandpa to exit the vehicle etc, etc. In fact, there's been a handful of occasions when it helped b/c in all the confusion with getting my child stuff together, I forgot to close a door or the back, but could do so remotely. I wouldn't compromise on this if you can help it.

The other "non-option" option are rear seats that will only be used on occasion should fold flat easily and in separate parts. Both Honda and Sienna now have the split-folding seat. When I was looking at them, Honda didn't have it. We didn't view it as a big deal, but went with the Sienna anyway. It's so nice to be able to keep part of that back seat down! It gives us lots more storage that way, and if our back is full when we take on that extra passenger, instead of unloading the entire trunk, we can shove it over to 1 side and convert the other to a chair. It also makes each portion a little lighter and easier for my wife to convert the backseat on her own. It's a great idea. I think a 2nd row seat that folds flat into the floor is nice in this way, too, but not necessary.

Anyone else know of any "necessary" options?!?

96corolla · June 2005

Now I feel worse....:)

As I said, I'd love the auto doors, but NEED the 8 passenger and Toyo doesn't offer it in XLE. So, I really don't have much of a choice. I'm trying to hold out to see of the 2006 will have an available XLE 8 or LE with 2nd slider(at least), but I've not gotten much confidence from the toyo dealers.

Lugging 3 kids around, I'm sure my wife would LOVE and appreciate all the auto doors, but getting the 8 is more important to her so we may be SOL!!!

dae · June 2005

Besides getting better traction and handling with wider tires, you would (in theory) get higher fuel consumption due to the greater friction of the wider tire contact area with the road.

There is not such "theory". Energy mostly dissipates for bending rubber and compressing air, not for friction (unless you spin wheel or slide in the corner). Width is not that important - load, sidewall construction, elastic properties of the compound and void ratio and inflation pressure are the things to watch.

ljwalters1 · June 2005

Rather than make the 8 passenger requirement a dealbreaker to force you to forgo the XLE & auto-doors, why not make the 8 passenger & auto-door requirements that force you to go to the Oddessey?

dae · June 2005

What I really like is proving the Ody isn't the perfect van all these Honda owners think it is.

You completely mixed up a well founded (and supported by all available professional reviews, from Consumer Reports, to Car&Driver, to this site) opinion that the Odyssey is the best available minivan in 2005 with the notion of "perfect".

Of course it is not. It is is just other are even less perfect.

96corolla · June 2005

Good Question. We liked the Sienna so much more(luxury, ride, feel) that the margin is too wide to allow our other "wants"(power 2nd slider) to sway us to the Ody.

Basically, my wife will be driving this thing primarily and I've left it up to her to make the call. She is also much more comfortable with the REAL 8th passenger seat in the Sienna. That definately WILL work with a car seat. The Ody is questionable and she really isn't comfortable(nor am I) having that question/risk hanging over our head.

Take those things away...the 2nd power door....and honestly on that day, there was no comparison. Sienna won by a landslide. It wasn't even close. Then you come here and read everything and try to think logical and I'm wondering if I should go back and drive them in reverse order this time or something(we did them both on the same day..Sienna 1st....we had seen both several weeks apart previously and were leaning Ody before we did them both back to back). It makes me wonder if we're crazy or something.....how can you possibly pick something over the Ody....I mean that seriouslly too. It is strange.

macakava · June 2005

I have read somewhere a while back that skinnier tires promote better fuel consumption in general, all things being equal. i.e. identical rubber compound used in wider and skinnier tires being compared.

That may be one of the reasons why those specialty vehicle competition to get the highest gas mileage uses those skinny bicycle tires. The skinny tires also present a smaller frontal/cross section area for less wind resistance as well for higher gas mileage.

mcase2 · June 2005

The opinions on this "site" are mixed. This is a forum with a few vociferous Honda owners (or possibly Honda employees) . Try Jd Powers if you want a not so hot opinion on the Honda.

macakava · June 2005

J D Powers provides initial quality surveys/ratings which are a far cry from a long term reliability. These IQS/R are just a snap shot over a small time period.

What is more important is how the vehicles stand the test of time over a long time of say, at least 100K miles, which is the actual reliability or the maintenance of a satisfactory quality level over that 100K miles or a number years of use. CR is a good example of an agency that provides those reliability statistics from owner surveys covering many past years of usage.

lastwraith · June 2005

Unless you are specifically looking for negative reviews in order to check out the complaints and decide if they are relevant, I'm not sure what purpose it serves to seek out a review with only negative outcomes. Besides, as has been said before, initial quality pales in comparison to the importance of reliability over time, especially in a minivan. The hyundai sonata won for initial quality in 2004 and while it's a nice car (we have one), there are not many people comparing it to an Accord or Camry in terms of overall quality. Besides all that, the 2004 Ody won the IQ award from JD Powers last year anyway.

I wouldn't look for a certain type of opinion on either the Ody or the Sienna. It seems that pricing and dealers are very different according to region, I would worry more about that since either choice will likely serve as a reliable vehicle for years to come.

enjoy the drive

c2rosa · June 2005

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106170

marine2 · June 2005

Good Question. We liked the Sienna so much more(luxury, ride, feel) that the margin is too wide to allow our other "wants"(power 2nd slider) to sway us to the Ody.

I didn't read your first post on what the Sienna has on it, and you sure couldn't go wrong with Toyota. Not sure if many could put the Honda down for second place on luxury. But I know from experience, looks soon wears off and then you wish you had all the goodies you passed up for looks. If the wife is going to be the main driver, a power tailgate would really be a blessing to most women, unless they are sort of tall. It isn't that easy to close the tailgate on these minivans, especially for shorter women. One could get by with one electric sliding door. That should be one thing women try doing when deciding on options on a minivan.

ljwalters1 · June 2005

"Not sure if many could put the Honda down for second place on luxury"

I'm guessing that the Sienna's seat cushioning is a little cushier than the Oddessey, and there's more leather used (you know how some fancier cars have "folds" or pleats of leather in the seats and door?) in the SIenna. Not sure about the Honda's trim, but the Sienna's wood trim is also very nice.

But I know from experience, looks soon wears off

Not sure when that happens - we have a year old Sienna. Had the interior carpet professionally cleaned from spilled (and ultimately spoiled) milk, the color on the driver's seat is wearing off, and the back is filled with toys, strollers and cups, but every so often, my wife and I look back there and think, "Man, what a pretty car!!!" or as Thomas the Tank would say, "What a useful engine!!!" So glad my kid is past Barney and never got into the Wiggles!!!! :P

96corolla · June 2005

our other "problem" with the Ody was ground clearance. It is awfully low to the ground. That is a concern for silly things such as hitting parking lot bumpers and more important things like safety. We had concerns and have heard cases where this lack of clearance makes the Ody vulnerable in the snow. Since we live in the North East, that is a major concern. Not like we'll be taking the minivan out for joyrides in the snow, but if you are out and a storm starts, or you need to drive in it because of an emergency, it would be nice to be comfortable that your van will be OK in the snow. The Ody is awfully close to he ground...I think like 4.2 inches or something. This is another small thing you really wouldn't notice unless you specifically looked for it.

05ody · June 2005

Hey I noticed the same thing before I bought the Odyssey. But then I thought wouldnt it be more safe for roll over resistance? and it does in fact have a less chance of rolling over then the Sienna does, not that the Sienna has a high chance, but you never know. I just worrie from my previous van (1993 GMC Safari) which was a very very tippy van and yes I have went on 2 wheels before. Not a very fun ride. Now we get bad winters down here aswell, and we bought the van during winter months. We also live up where there are STEEP hills to get up, and I think if we never had traction control, we would of never made it up some of the hills. I never tested the AWD Sienna, seing how my aunts is a 2004 LE, which is FWD without traction control, but im sure eather van is fine for the winter months. Now I will admit, one time comming out of a drive way I did turn abit too sharp and the bottom of the bumper did rub up on the curb, but surpringlly there was not even a scratch. Maybe it just didnt hit as hard as I thought it did.

twins2 · June 2005

With twins on the way next month, it is time to decide. I've gone back and forth for several months. I drive a 98 accord and my parents have a camry. Both the Ody and the Sienna are nice.

Ody- BMW of minvan
Sienna- Lexus of minvan

Sums it up. The Sienna's ground clearance, interior ride is nicer and AWD appealing in New England

Ody drives more like a car, sportier. Priced better, but more int road noise and lower to ground and no AWD

Neither have bluetooth! wanted the NAV and the rear camera

Sienna XLE limited with NAV RES 38k

Ody XLE with Nav Res 32.5 K (didn't the the touring was worth the extra)

Based on other postings, I'm leaning toward the Sienna. But price and having driven an accord for 7 years and a civic before that have me still thinking about Oddy

will either 2006 have bluetooth?

05ody · June 2005

Hey I also drive a 98 Accord V6, and very reliable. Drove a Prelude many years before the Accord too. My uncle has had 2 Camry's and is still driving one and has the Sienna. I do like the Camry and Sienna, but for my driving prefrences I would rather the Honda. Not to mention for a family, the Odyssey also has more safety features (front, front side, and all 3 rows curtain air bags with roll over sensors). The Sienna has a more cushy ride and is alittle bit quieter, but thats not for me. If I HAVE to drive a minivan, I would want it to feel as car like as possible. I really dont like the steering on the Sienna, you cannot feel anything when you turn the wheel which make me feel insecure, but thats just me. I never heard anything about bluetooth comming out for eather of these minivans, so I just guess time will tell. I think they should have bluetooth for the higher end models anyways seing how you are already paying so much for it!

boodad · June 2005

Both minivans are great choices, according to many.

Write down your priority options that you (or your spouse, if that's who will drive the minivan the most) really must have, based on how you will use the minivan and your driving style, and bounce these against the two choices.

For example, do you value conversations/listening to your favorite radio/CD while traveling the interstate freeways? Maybe the one with the quieter interior is better. Or, do you value a "sportier" ride above all else, especially when you're city driving (stop and go stuff)? Choose the one with the "perceived" better handling. Is price a factor or not? Choose what you can afford. Do you typically get rid of vehicles after a few years to upgrade? Make a decision now then change it (and lose $$) after several years. Or do you hang on to them regardless of what your neighbor/friends bring home from the dealer (get the one that pleases you the most with the most features you want because you're going to live with it for awhile).

Also, something to consider is that in a few months both cars will have newer models (Sienna to get a facelift - - front and rear; Odyssey to iron out the "first-year bugs"). Prices for 2006 may go up, too.

Let us know what you decide.

Cheers,

Wayne in Belgium

ljwalters1 · June 2005

Odyssey also has more safety features (front, front side, and all 3 rows curtain air bags with roll over sensors)

I don't know about the rollover senor, but the Sienna can be bought with all the airbags. Something to consider is that if you have kids in full carseats, you may not want the airbags. There are always warnings about how they're dangerous for kids, and if you attach your carseat correctly and strap the little ones in with the 5 ppoint harness, they won't need an airbag to prevent them from hitting the roof, side or seat in front of them. Airbags are only useful to prevent our heads and bodies from hitting other parts of the car upon a crash.

rorr · June 2005

"I don't know about the rollover senor, but the Sienna can be bought with all the airbags."

Sienna does not have the rollover sensors. Finding Siennas with the side/curtain airbag option (if desired), can be problematic, particularly in the CE and LE trims.

"There are always warnings about how they're dangerous for kids, and if you attach your carseat correctly and strap the little ones in with the 5 ppoint harness, they won't need an airbag to prevent them from hitting the roof, side or seat in front of them."

The only potentially dangerous airbags are the front impact airbags and the side airbags built into the sides of the front seats. Which is why children should not ride in the front seat. The side CURTAIN airbags are NOT dangerous to occupants unless they are sleeping with their head actually against the window. In which case, in the event of a side impact, I think the occupant has more to fear from the large object attempting to gain entry to the vehicle by way of their head than they have to fear from an inflating airbag.

They won't need to airbags to prevent them from hitting interior portions of the car? You've made a couple of huge assumptions: 1) they stay in their seat and the seat stays in place (a fairly safe assumption), and 2) the roof/doors/side of the vehicle remain where THEY are.

ljwalters1 · June 2005

They won't need to airbags to prevent them from hitting interior portions of the car? You've made a couple of huge assumptions...2) the roof/doors/side of the vehicle remain where THEY are.

EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT POINT!!!! Thank you for pointing that out - it was so obvious I completely overlooked it!

05ody · June 2005

So true. And the Odyssey has sensors that turn the side air bags off if someone's head or even arm is in the way

cccompson · June 2005

It seems to me that you should decide what you most need. If AWD, buy the Sienna. If nav/RES performance is more important, go with the Honda.

twins2 · June 2005

That's exactly what it has come down to. I asked this several months ago, but any experience with the Honda odyssey in snow/snowstorms? I like the drive/NAV/lower price of the Ody better than the Sienna but fear I'll need AWD and higher ground clearance of the Sienna living in New England....also, anyone with experience in aftermarket installed bluetooth for either the Sienna or Ody?

One more test drive this thursday with the wife and then purchase time....

05ody · June 2005

Hey we also have bad winters down here in Northern Ontario and the Odyssey is great in the snow! its very heavy and the traction control and VSA helps alot. I never got stuck once in my 2005 Odyssey. If thats the only reason holding you back from the Odyssey, its not a big concern. It handles great in the snow.

stevedebi · June 2005

"Hey we also have bad winters down here in Northern Ontario and the Odyssey is great in the snow! its very heavy and the traction control and VSA helps alot."

I think the traction control only works below 30 KMPH? I had a 2002 that I took over the mountain into Yosemite in the middle of a snowstorm. I would take the low route if I had it to do over again, but the Ody went up fine, and the traction control worked well. But you had to go slow, not a bad idea in snow anyway.

But AWD would probably be better, in my opinion.

05ody · June 2005

I thought the tration control worked at all speeds? maybe im wrong. I go slow in he snow anyways. Ive never tried AWD on the Sienna so I cant compare because my aunt has a 2004 Seinna LE w/o AWD. Eather way I think both vans would hold up good in the snow.

boodad · June 2005

Just to add, winter tires seem to be a critical factor with dealing with snow/ice. AWD, by itself, is not insurance - - you must have a good set of winter threads. I've been successful with driving with respect for the elements and decent tires to get me through the snow with a FWD minivan. Also, I wouldn't just pick the Ody if FWD is your choice - - test drive both and match up the one that best suits your needs (and wants, too!).

Cheers,

Wayne in Belgium

96corolla · June 2005

It will be interesting to see HER choice after driving both. Is she going to be driving them back to back, or have you already picked Ody and she is just driving that? Please let us know you she thinks and what you decide. I've heard and read on Siennaclub that Ody is not good in the snow with the ground clearance issue having much to do with that. Of course, it was on Siennaclub, so take it for what you think it's worth. The ground clearance also concerned me from a more silly standpoint of hitting things...parking bumpers, etc.

05ody · June 2005

True. Every winter I said I will get winter tires, but I never have yet. But then again I'm always very cautious when driving in bad weather, but then again that doesn't mean I will never get into an accident. I've just been lucky. So really I never drove a vehicle with winter tires and cant really compare. I would of been happy with both vans though, I really liked them both but the Odyssey just met my expectations more so then the Sienna did. Good luck on your decision

rorr · June 2005

"I think the traction control only works below 30 KMPH?"

Well, I think it's safe to say we won't be exceeding 30,000 MPH in an Ody anytime soon. :P

But seriously, where have you heard the 30mph limitation? I've never heard of this before and I don't recall seeing anything about it in the owner's manual. If there is a speed limitation, is the Sienna fitted with traction/VSC also only effective at speeds below 30mph? :confuse:

lastwraith · June 2005

It makes NO sense for VSC to have any kind of mph limitations and it doesn't really make any sense for traction control either. You could argue that it will mostly be used at under 30 mph speeds due to the nature of traction control (which is basically to control acceleration which compromises tire grip) but really, why should the ABS system not be able to counteract acceleration that compromises your car's traction needs just because you are over some arbitrary speed? Seems like a farfetched idea to me anyway.

toyotaken · June 2005

The VSC and TRAC system on the Sienna doesn't have a speed limitation on them. They work at any speed.

FYI

Toyota Ken

user777 · June 2005

in my '03 ODY, i believe there IS a speed threshold after which the function will not be active. 30MPH seems high actually. I think the speed threshold is lower. will have to check the manual. realize that traction control is not to manage acceleration but rather to limit uncontrolled wheel spin (like when there is no traction). VSC or stability control is another animal - helping to control vehicle yaw by modulating the appropriate brake. ABS is ABS and the framework for the other functions.

rorr · June 2005

But the question becomes WHY put a speed threshold in place in the first place? Just because traction control is unlikely to be necessary at higher speeds? What about traveling on dry roads and then hitting a patch of black ice? Wouldn't traction control be of benefit to keep the drive wheels from unexpectedly spinning before the driver must react and take his foot off the gas?

Again, this is the first I've heard of ANY kind of speed limitation either traction control or VSC. As pointed out above, the Sienna has no limitations on the speed at which either system is useful. So why should Honda go to the trouble of installing a speed cutoff point after which the system is no longer functioning????

dilbertzzz · June 2005

First, I'm reasonably sure the poster meant 30 KILOMETERS per hour. That would be something like 18 or 19 MILES per hour.

Secondly, as Toyota states in their glossary, Traction Control is generally needed when starting up (thus Honda's slow speed limitation) and sometimes on acceleration on slippery surfaces. However, the latter requires some more sophisticated decision-making software with pretty precise controls (to avoid making the matter worse which can happen very quickly indeed at higher speeds). Toyota has apparently provided that added sophistication to their system, while it seems Honda has not (apparently using the speed-limit on their Traction Control to avoid having a less complex system exacerbate rather than solve slippage problems at higher speeds).

In both makes, the VSC/VSA (Vehicle Stability Control/Assist), is a much more complex system including sensors for yaw, steering angle, and G-force to help determine over/understeer and activate throttle and individual-wheel braking to attempt to improve things.

Toyota wisely goes so far as to strongly suggest safe driving habits by pointing out that even their marvelous system is still subject to the laws of physics (being unable to provide more traction than could possibly be available in a given situation).

Let us hope that the programmers of these systems use near-Space-Shuttle levels of error tolerance acceptance in their coding and testing practices. I would hate for some Monday-morning-code glitch to decide that I should really drive straight off the highway rather than to follow the pavement. So far no such reports have surfaced. Let's hope it stays that way.

user777 · June 2005

well, regarding your last point, i believe i read somewhere in a toyota forum, (not sure which), that a failure in the yaw-rate sensor or steering angle sensor (again, can't remember which), caused VSC to activate and the driver ended up in the other lane...

dilbertzzz · June 2005

I guess that is the thing that really frightens me. I mean, when your vehicle does unexpected things on its own, then the driver reaction to such things might be even worse still. Think about how tense driving would be for some weeks (months? years?) after something like that happened to you. Trips to the chiropractor would be a weekly fact of life, not to mention tension headache effects and nervous ticks....

I'm only slightly exaggerating here. For someone who experienced the car "taking over" in a bad way like that, it would be like the ocean suddenly rising for the first time in human memory as it did in the Indian Ocean. It takes a while to willing go near the water (or vehicle, in this case) again once it proves that it won't necessarily behave like it is supposed to do.

I think I'll prefer my vehicles stay somewhat less decisive for the foreseeable future so that I can attempt to avoid any that run wild on their own. (Being a programmer/analyst/trouble-shooter myself makes me even more nervous knowing the many ways to miss something in coding, then to consider the many ways sensors can fail... Shivers run down my spine!)

jdubs · July 2005

See the raw government video footage of the side impact test....

http://www.safercar.gov/
See the "Safety Concern" they note in bold letters. Shame on Honda.

So, let me see, your wife gets hit driving it, she's ejected and killed....

If you don't skip this vehicle for that reason, you aren't human !

Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

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